Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[Thrudh]

Good discussion.

One thing I did want to bring up is that even though I think some people are underestimating these buffs, particularly the gratuitous amount of Maximum Dodge you can get, we are discussing whether or not we want to keep Momentum Defense as is. I think some people have brought some good points about it being a little bit out of flavor for a rogue to have something build up when being hit.

Sev~

Yes, please change it... It's not something I would ever take as is. Rogues should be master of Dodge...

[Robai]

I see so many complains and I'm afraid Devs might make Rogues too powerful.
Btw, why so many comparisons vs Paladin?

Please don't buff rogues too much, they shouldn't be equal to top DPS builds, they are better at other things like traps etc.
Rogue are always welcome for +30% trap bonuses already.

Rogues are also good with UMD and Quickened heal scrolls would be a really nice thing (something in enchantments for this would be so sweet).

[Impaqt]

Good discussion.

One thing I did want to bring up is that even though I think some people are underestimating these buffs, particularly the gratuitous amount of Maximum Dodge you can get, we are discussing whether or not we want to keep Momentum Defense as is. I think some people have brought some good points about it being a little bit out of flavor for a rogue to have something build up when being hit.

Sev~

What about something like Swashbuckling style that provide different defensive benefits based on your fighting style?

and perhaps a substantial concealment miss chance (Or even better, an incorporeal miss chance) while sneaking.

[Braegan]

Rogues should be master of Dodge...

I thought that was Monks?

[Myrddinman]

Good discussion.

One thing I did want to bring up is that even though I think some people are underestimating these buffs, particularly the gratuitous amount of Maximum Dodge you can get, we are discussing whether or not we want to keep Momentum Defense as is. I think some people have brought some good points about it being a little bit out of flavor for a rogue to have something build up when being hit.

Sev~

Thanks for being open to a MD tweak. I think this tree discussion has been very beneficial for both players and Devs.

One thing that I'm not sure if anyone brought up, and it's really not a huge deal, but it would be nice to have some sort of passive Item Defense in the TA cores. With the increase attack speed of stick builds, and most staves being made of wood, the item wear piles-up really quick!

I know, I know...repairing is cheap and plat is plentiful I usually hit a tavern myself in between each quest to repair and grab a Dirty Kobold. This being said, on long quests my main staves often break and I have to switch to another, less desirable stick. I seem to remember hearing this same complaint from other staff builds on the forums.

I know, I know...I could use the Adamantine Ritual in the Stone of Change I have done this, but it gets a little tiresome after a while, with the amount of staves one carries and such.

Really it's just 3 AP's worth of enhancements, but only available to a few classes. It would be nice quality of life perk for Acrobats.

Perhaps a passive Item Defense 25% @ level 3/50% @ level 12/75% @ level 20?

Cheers!

[Grailhawk]

Please don't buff rogues too much, they shouldn't be equal to top DPS builds,

I strongly disagree with this concept Rogues should be the best or second best DPS in the game. Conceptually there specialization should be killing things, whether through insta-kills (assassin) or DPS (thief) doesn't matter but that's what they should be in my mind.

[Oxarhamar]

Good discussion.

One thing I did want to bring up is that even though I think some people are underestimating these buffs, particularly the gratuitous amount of Maximum Dodge you can get, we are discussing whether or not we want to keep Momentum Defense as is. I think some people have brought some good points about it being a little bit out of flavor for a rogue to have something build up when being hit.

Sev~

Yes I'd prefer a momentum defense that increased when you avoided damage. miss, dodge, incorpral, evade or when dealing SA (even if mobs are SA immune)

Each Sneak Attack gain +% dodge for X seconds capped where you fell.

Rogues should survive though avoidance not by taking damage.

[Impaqt]

I see so many complains and I'm afraid Devs might make Rogues too powerful.
Btw, why so many comparisons vs Paladin?

because the paladin pass shoved paladins to the top of the food chain kicking and screaming. then the barb pass provided compelling reasons to play a barbarian. so far the rogue pass is nice. but nothing that really would make folks say "I'd love to play a rogue again"

Please don't buff rogues too much, they shouldn't be equal to top DPS builds, they are better at other things like traps etc.
Rogue are always welcome for +30% trap bonuses already.

sigh. nobody wants to be a trap monkey.

Rogues are also good with UMD and Quickened heal scrolls would be a really nice thing (something in enchantments for this would be so sweet).

Not a big fan of Quickening scrolls... but some sort of huge bonus to concentration would work for me. maybe when you hit uncanny dodge you get a +100 bump to concentration while its active?

[Severlin]

Yes I'd prefer a momentum defense that increased when you avoided damage. miss, dodge, incorpral, evade or when dealing SA (even if mobs are SA immune)

Each Sneak Attack gain +% dodge for X seconds capped where you fell.

Rogues should survive though avoidance not by taking damage.

My only problem with this is it essentially rewards the most powerful characters more than those who need it.

Sev~

[CaptainSpacePony]

~ Fast Movement now adds 1% per Rogue level. It stacks with everything. Since it scales based on Rogue levels, we don't think this allows for a character who can obtain speeds that they get get now, except a Monk 18/Rogue 2 will be 2% faster and we don't that option is problematic enough to implement a complicated anti-req or stacking system.

If players can see some build we missed that can actually achieve speeds greater that what is currently possible drop us a line because that is not our intent.

Sev~

Rog 15, Ftr 4, Barb 1 = 35%. I don't think that's breaking the sound barrier.

~ We aren't currently plan on giving out free feats as they eats into the Fighter advantage.

TY. That's appreciated.

[Blackheartox]

By forcing people to go back to evasion based builds. Then you're back at square one where traps do not matter.

what reason is there to build for evasion and imp evasionn nowadays with mrr anyways?
And traps being ignored by almost any build that puts on harmor is a bit dumb in my texbook.
How can you evade and mitigate so much damage from spikes piercing from down of your body and going all trough your body?
Prr is a system that never existed in dnd and it kills with mrr the sole purpose of traps, to kill nonagile people.
They should at least manage to almost kill you.
Not that you mitigate 70-80 % damage of traps and stand in em with cocoon ticks fully healing you and traps being unable to break thro that simple shield /what a vanguard can do now for example

[General_Gronker]

Improved evasion is useless anyway since a pally can use charisma mod to saves and evade everything anyway

A. Cha mod to saves? Not for long, with the changes coming.
B. Useless? You clearly have not run into enough traps and spells that actually hit hard.

[Oxarhamar]

My only problem with this is it essentially rewards the most powerful characters more than those who need it.

Sev~

Possibly, most things do this already.

[catscan420]

what reason is there to build for evasion and imp evasionn nowadays with mrr anyways?
And traps being ignored by almost any build that puts on harmor is a bit dumb in my texbook.
How can you evade and mitigate so much damage from spikes piercing from down of your body and going all trough your body?
Prr is a system that never existed in dnd and it kills with mrr the sole purpose of traps, to kill nonagile people.
They should at least manage to almost kill you.
Not that you mitigate 70-80 % damage of traps and stand in em with cocoon ticks fully healing you and traps being unable to break thro that simple shield /what a vanguard can do now for example

The point still stands. You will just force people into certain builds which is where we were before armor up. I see many more builds now than before Armor Up. Heck even most bard builds were swashbucking bard/rogue/fighter builds.

We will be back to the must have evasion to survive. How is that good for the game? And you are forcing artificers to take 2 rogue levels... The only class that would benefit is rogues.

[Zoda]

Okay, not gonna pretend that I read all the discussion here but...

The last 2 cores need to do waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more for a minmaxer to even consider not splashing monk on an acrobat. The extra feats, dance of flowers, shadow fade and master mountain stance are huge additions for acrobat builds.

I played 5 or 6 different acrobat builds across many different updates and no monk is a nogo.

[Grailhawk]

My only problem with this is it essentially rewards the most powerful characters more than those who need it.

Sev~

Conceptually though it makes more scene, the more I evade my opponents attack the better I get at avoiding future attacks.

Another ideas would be to make it based on time gone without being hit, that is have it reset on being hit and let it just passively stack up. Maybe make each hit remove one stack at a time under this set up?

[catscan420]

Okay, not gonna pretend that I read all the discussion here but...

The last 2 cores need to do waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more for a minmaxer to even consider not splashing monk on an acrobat. The extra feats, dance of flowers, shadow fade and master mountain stance are huge additions for acrobat builds.

I played 5 or 6 different acrobat builds across many different updates and no monk is a nogo.

I agree with this. That's where all PREs should really shine.

[Qezuzu]

By forcing people to go back to evasion based builds. Then you're back at square one where traps do not matter.

Who cares

Traps should --kill-- players

[Myrddinman]

We will be back to the must have evasion to survive. How is that good for the game? And you are forcing artificers to take 2 rogue levels... The only class that would benefit is rogues.

I'm not sure that this is true. As we have it now (evidenced in this very thread), folks are having a hard time justifying Evasion over Heavy Armor and PRR/MRR. I think that what Sev is proposing will give folks a more viable Evasion option, if that is the type of character they want to play.

I certainly don't want to go back to feeling I need to splash 2 Rogue or 2 Monk for Evasion on every character. But what we have now is a trend that forgoes Evasion in favor of PRR/MRR.

[Basic_Uncaring]

Very. The builds seem very comparable.

If you can't make good use from 10 bonus sneak attack dice (especially once Shiv gives a free Bluff check) then yes, you aren't going to value Rogue levels. That's fine with us. That's why there are multiple classes and alternate playstyles.

As for Paladin heals, they are fine in heroic content but honestly they fall behind later on. Once your Lay on Hands run out (which is very limited unless you are going outside the KotC tree) then you are relying on a small pool of level 3 and 4 spells to heal you. Even with your Healing Amp using those spells while in the middle of combat on Epic Elite it is likely that you are taking enough damage that it is a net loss in hit points if you stop DPSing to heal. Even then I can cook myself out of mana in two or three fights. Once you start building to make good use of the heals you are giving up a lot of other DPS as you splash into the tank tree, stack Healing Amp, or try to get bonus mana.

Let me put this another way: if using UMD with Heal scrolls isn't enough healing for you then the Paladin spells certainly aren't going to do it.

Sev~

With my pally I could heal with ease on heroic content and even more easily on EE since I can even regenerate LoH....there may be something wrong with your build Sev. BTW I regenerate about 300 hp per minute thanks to fast healing and almost 100 hp with every killed enemy thanks to divine crusader. That's of course without taking sacred ground into account. Im not going any deep cause it would give ideas for nerfs....

Have u tried using a cocoon or a heal scroll on a rogue? I did.....a rogue cannot even stand close to a paladin's shadow in terms of defense.

Holy sword outclasses +3 damage with staves simply because of added threat. I could reach 13/20 of crit range with my thief acrobat using sireth. With holy sword it would become 11/20 (45% crit chance). (and holy sword is a spell while +3 stave would mean spend AP in something that could have been survivability)

Again. Give rogues something USEFUL since bards and pallies are death machines already. It's not like I have a rogue right now that I wanna see destroy every quest on EE but it's just troubling to see classes that can do pratically everything with a little splash and others that have to struggle to maintain decency in their main field (I have several examples available if needed).