Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[brzytki]

I think you went a little overboard with +20% doublestrike. It makes the core really powerful and hard to pass. I'd suggest toning it down to 10%, and if you are thinking about making it staff-only so that assassins can't benefit from it, i'd advocate for the same treatment for Lethality in the assassin tree because +1 crit multi is more beneficial to acrobats than to assassins (higher base damage, higher crit range, more MP).

[Ayseifn]

Is it too late to change Sweeping Strikes to use as a bonus the greater of Dexterity or Strength? I still see a good bit of Strength based Thief-Acrobats, especially on Half-Orcs.

Thanks

Most are strength based, Sweeping Strikes is the only thing that makes you think about going dex but dex is a trap. No idea how high mob balance checks are but even on a str based acrobat 70+ DC isn't hard to get, and with a little bit of effort 80+ is achievable on a str acrobat.

I think you went a little overboard with +20% doublestrike. It makes the core really powerful and hard to pass. I'd suggest toning it down to 10%, and if you are thinking about making it staff-only so that assassins can't benefit from it, i'd advocate for the same treatment for Lethality in the assassin tree because +1 crit multi is more beneficial to acrobats than to assassins (higher base damage, higher crit range, more MP).

It's the barb problem all over again. 2 good trees that work really well together. Because of the new tree system the devs either have to load up the tier 5's possibly making them an insanely good 5 level splash classes(ranger) or back load the cores making silly things like we have here where assassins are taking 18 cores of acrobat and acrobats taking 18 cores of assassin, that's close 70 AP gone and 18 levels locked in. Barbs are the same, 18 core in FB for Death Frenzy and tier 5 in ravager for heals.

If there's some overarching plan with the class updates that'll make +1 multi and all the other assassin juice a difficult choice down the road that's fine, but to be honest I don't see how. If there's a plan in place or you're sure you can tackle it without messing things up royally that's awesome, just a confirmation that this kind of issue is on your radar is all I really want.

[Tinco]

Most are strength based, Sweeping Strikes is the only thing that makes you think about going dex but dex is a trap. No idea how high mob balance checks are but even on a str based acrobat 70+ DC isn't hard to get, and with a little bit of effort 80+ is achievable on a str acrobat.

Well, without Divine Might Str-based Bladeforged seems rather pointless. Human can fit it in with a twist I guess. With 18rog/1wiz/1fvs you can try to squeeze it in on a BF, but that means giving up Divine Grace which is still by far the best /2 split.

I think you went a little overboard with +20% doublestrike. It makes the core really powerful and hard to pass. I'd suggest toning it down to 10%, and if you are thinking about making it staff-only so that assassins can't benefit from it, i'd advocate for the same treatment for Lethality in the assassin tree because +1 crit multi is more beneficial to acrobats than to assassins (higher base damage, higher crit range, more MP).

It seems like it's done anyway and will ship as written. And that historically means that it won't change afterwards, so 18 core / lethality seems to be the dull new standard for all three rogue types. At this rate, multiclassing is dead sooner than later which is a grave they started to shovel with Holy Sword, which puts a severe cap on what they can do with T5 abilities and something I mentioned countless times.

[Ayseifn]

Well, without Divine Might Str-based Bladeforged seems rather pointless. Human can fit it in with a twist I guess.

Not sure I get your point, bladeforged 18 rogue/2 pally can also get DM with a twist or do you mean without DM str based isn't better than dex based... or something else?

[EllisDee37]

Not sure I get your point, bladeforged 18 rogue/2 pally can also get DM with a twist or do you mean without DM str based isn't better than dex based... or something else?

Getting DM with a twist would require spending 11 AP in the KotC tree; he's saying a Bladeforged can't swing that 11 AP because they need it for the recon SLA. Human, OTOH, can just move that 11 AP from the bladeforged tree over to KotC and call it a day.

[Ayseifn]

Getting DM with a twist would require spending 11 AP in the KotC tree; he's saying a Bladeforged can't swing that 11 AP because they need it for the recon SLA. Human, OTOH, can just move that 11 AP from the bladeforged tree over to KotC and call it a day.

Ah right, had a few beers so not thinking straight.

Thanks.

[Grailhawk]

Tier Five

Acrobatic Staff Training: +10 Melee Power, +3 to hit and +3 damage with quarterstaves. Previous: No Melee Power.

Any way that the +3 hit/damage could be changed to a +4 dice size (d6 -> d10), Quarterstaff's in general have a d6 base that's really really!! bad for a two handed weapon.

[Severlin]

Cartwheel Charge will be changed so that the 20% Double Strike will only work for staff.

Sev~

[Inspire]

Any chance of improving the capstone? Maybe passively allow basic attacks to hit up to two targets and an additional two targets after tumbling? It needs something to compete with other capstones.

[HatsuharuZ]

Sev, would you be willing to consider a small addition to the "No Mercy" enhancement? The issue with this enhancement is that 'helplessness' is a very specific condition, and it's hard to achieve unless you have specific weapons, high strength (for Stunning Blow) or a caster party member who uses Hold spells a lot.

On the other hand, tripping is something that this tree can do very well. So, I'd suggest giving "No Mercy" an additional effect that allows the user to deal additional damage to tripped enemies. If a % bonus would be problematic, make it a static bonus, like 2/4/6 per rank, or extra damage dice, etc. I feel that this enhancement needs to have more synergy with other enhancements in the tree.

[ToastyFred]

Cartwheel Charge will be changed so that the 20% Double Strike will only work for staff.

Sev~

Good change.

[Tinco]

A heartfelt thank you for realizing this dual level 18 core insanity fast and pulling back from it. I'm still a little sour because of cartwheel charge, but that's something I can stomach. If you can shove these two changes into the next patch (and not let it linger live for a few days) I'm even happier.

[oradafu]

Cartwheel Charge will be changed so that the 20% Double Strike will only work for staff.

Sev~

So Rogues are the only class where (if achievable) using multiple 18 Cores is actually a penalty since the bonuses don't crossover?

[oradafu]

Any way that the +3 hit/damage could be changed to a +4 dice size (d6 -> d10), Quarterstaff's in general have a d6 base that's really really!! bad for a two handed weapon.

With the additional penalty of being the other THF style that is slower in attacks if you mover (although Acrobats are suppose to be the one fightering style that isn't penalized by moving), Acrobats are expected to Tumble (which slows down attacks and DPS) for the increased DPS boost.

A Die increase might be one way to help Acrobats, especially since most staves are a lousy 1d6. Thunder-Forged Alloy Quarterstaff for example are a lousy 1d6, which makes it inferior to the named quarterstaves since the Devs didn't bother to increase the Die for the melee staff.

[oradafu]

Acrobat without Lethality in our tests can hit Swashbuckler DPS levels. They were a little low before we added the extra Doublestrike. These are solo tests. They will be even better in groups with higher Sneak Attack uptime.

Sev~

And I highly doubt this, unless the test was just on a single stationary boss which required no movement to attack... which is how many bosses in the game?

[Saekee]

Cartwheel Charge will be changed so that the 20% Double Strike will only work for staff.

Sev~

I assume you will set it up so that if one unequips the staff after the charge, the doublestrike ceases? there are folks that are nutty enough to do this kind of thing continuously in order to buff a non-staff weapon...

[Severlin]

I assume you will set it up so that if one unequips the staff after the charge, the doublestrike ceases? there are folks that are nutty enough to do this kind of thing continuously in order to buff a non-staff weapon...

Since there seems to be some confusion; the double strike bonus is a passive bonus granted by the 5th core. It doesn't require you to tumble and isn't part of that bonus. You just get it when you are using a staff.

Sev~

[oradafu]

Since there seems to be some confusion; the double strike bonus is a passive bonus granted by the 5th core. It doesn't require you to tumble and isn't part of that bonus. You just get it when you are using a staff.

Sev~

Finally a upper Core bonus that's not attached to Tumble.

And can we get the Vorpal Knockdown untangled from Tumble also?

[BigErkyKid]

Since there seems to be some confusion; the double strike bonus is a passive bonus granted by the 5th core. It doesn't require you to tumble and isn't part of that bonus. You just get it when you are using a staff.

Sev~

I really don't understand a thing.

A few weeks ago the DPS of acrobats was alright and competitive according to your "internal tests".

Now you bumped it by 15% DBs and 10MP. That's not a minor adjustment at all.

In the meantime, the special attacks of the acrobat are as clunky as ever, have long cool downs and low damage.

So basically your whole update after the first update was to add some raw DPS to it (in a way that picks multi classing in the B). It seems rather bland and incoherent with the previous stance you had.

Now exactly what flavors does an acrobat bring to the table, say compared to a barbarian that uses a staff?

The passive dodge defenses? The lack of self heals?

[Severlin]

I really don't understand a thing.

A few weeks ago the DPS of acrobats was alright and competitive according to your "internal tests".

Now you bumped it by 15% DBs and 10MP. That's not a minor adjustment at all.

In the meantime, the special attacks of the acrobat are as clunky as ever, have long cool downs and low damage.

So basically your whole update after the first update was to add some raw DPS to it (in a way that picks multi classing in the B). It seems rather bland and incoherent with the previous stance you had.

Now exactly what flavors does an acrobat bring to the table, say compared to a barbarian that uses a staff?

The passive dodge defenses? The lack of self heals?

Disarm Traps? Tons of Sneak Attack damage? Evasion? Mitigation based on Dodge rather than armor? Staff Lunge? An AoE trip attack? The ability to also put points in other Rogue trees for excellent CC from traps or raw DPS from Assassin? Rogue talents? Vault?

We recently added Spinning Staff Wall, increased the AoE trip attack's DC, and completely changed the attack animation of staff lunge to pass through opponents.

I don't really see any similarities at all to barbarian, other than both being a melee oriented build.

Sev~