Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[EllisDee37]

I'm for it!

The only issue would be where to put it in the tree. Outside of adding it as a passive in the cores, I can see it being added to Staff Specialization.

Now that's a clever idea. I'm a big fan of this concept, since obviously there's no room available in the tree. Item Defense is normally 3 ranks: 25/50/75%. Since the idea is to add it for free, maybe aim for 50%? For full flavor it would be nice if they could just apply the effect to equipped quarterstaffs, but if it needs to be all items, so be it.

What about splitting it out to all the staff trainings?

Acrobat/Henshin Staff Training: +1 to hit and damage with quarterstaves, 10% chance to negate item wear
Staff Specialization: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier and Threat Range with Quarterstaves. +10% chance to negate item wear.

This gets you up to 40% without the tier 5, which is relevant because you can't take tier 5 until level 12. Surely there are item wear issues with quarterstaffs at lower levels, moreso because low level staffs have lower hardness/durability. Maybe type it so that they don't stack, and give the increasing amount each tier. So tier 1 gives 10%, tier 2 gives 20%, etc... This would get around the problem of people loading up on both acrobat and henshin versions.

If it only goes in staff specialization, I could envision two different approaches:

Staff Specialization: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier and Threat Range with Quarterstaves. +50% chance to negate item wear.
Ranks: 1
Cost: 2 AP

Staff Specialization
Ranks: 3
Cost: 1 AP per rank
Rank 1: +1 Competence bonus to Threat Range
Rank 2: +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier
Rank 3: +50% chance to negate item wear

[brzytki]

Are you sure cleaves have AoE SA? What about glances, do they yield SAs?

I don't see why they wouldn't if mobs are not agroed on you. I remember though that you used to not get glances on cleaves when using quarterstaff, not sure if it's still the case. Glances do not give SAs.

On a side note, Venomed Blades from assassin tree seems to apply to all glances (i noticed this a few days ago while leveling up my assassin using Carnifex) which makes them worth for acrobats to train considering they'll have almost twice as much MP (in LD) as assassins.

[Myrddinman]

Now that's a clever idea. I'm a big fan of this concept, since obviously there's no room available in the tree. Item Defense is normally 3 ranks: 25/50/75%. Since the idea is to add it for free, maybe aim for 50%? For full flavor it would be nice if they could just apply the effect to equipped quarterstaffs, but if it needs to be all items, so be it.

What about splitting it out to all the staff trainings?

Acrobat/Henshin Staff Training: +1 to hit and damage with quarterstaves, 10% chance to negate item wear
Staff Specialization: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier and Threat Range with Quarterstaves. +10% chance to negate item wear.

This gets you up to 40% without the tier 5, which is relevant because you can't take tier 5 until level 12. Surely there are item wear issues with quarterstaffs at lower levels, moreso because low level staffs have lower hardness/durability. Maybe type it so that they don't stack, and give the increasing amount each tier. So tier 1 gives 10%, tier 2 gives 20%, etc... This would get around the problem of people loading up on both acrobat and henshin versions.

If it only goes in staff specialization, I could envision two different approaches:

Staff Specialization: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier and Threat Range with Quarterstaves. +50% chance to negate item wear.
Ranks: 1
Cost: 2 AP

Staff Specialization
Ranks: 3
Cost: 1 AP per rank
Rank 1: +1 Competence bonus to Threat Range
Rank 2: +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier
Rank 3: +50% chance to negate item wear

I like these too. I think 50% mitigation is fair, and your 2nd approach allows for folks to decide whether it's worth it for them to spend the extra 1 AP, while keeping the AP for Staff Specialization as is for players who don't care for the Item Defense.

What if it was added to Staff Training:
- Acrobat Staff Training I: +1 to hit and damage with quarterstaves
- Acrobat Staff Training II: +1 to hit and +2 damage with quarterstaves, 25% chance to negate item wear
- Acrobat Staff Training III:+1 to hit and damage with quarterstaves, 50% chance to negate item wear
- Acrobat Staff Training IV:+1 to hit and +2 damage with quarterstaves, 75% chance to negate item wear

I'm fine with it only affecting Staffs, but not sure if that's possible.

Although, adding it to the cores might be the best, due to the stacking nature of Acrobat and Henshin Staff Training. I could see it and cores 3, 6, and 12.

[Ayseifn]

I don't see why they wouldn't if mobs are not agroed on you. I remember though that you used to not get glances on cleaves when using quarterstaff, not sure if it's still the case. Glances do not give SAs.

On a side note, Venomed Blades from assassin tree seems to apply to all glances (i noticed this a few days ago while leveling up my assassin using Carnifex) which makes them worth for acrobats to train considering they'll have almost twice as much MP (in LD) as assassins.

I need to figure out a decent way to test, but after playing around with the training dummys for a bit I couldn't get SAs to proc AoE with cleaves or glances. Paladin light damage was on all glances/cleaves but SA only ever hit the targeted dummy and never AoE.

If it is indeed the case that they don't work on AoEs then that should be something added to core 12 or so.

[Dreppo]

I like these too. I think 50% mitigation is fair, and your 2nd approach allows for folks to decide whether it's worth it for them to spend the extra 1 AP, while keeping the AP for Staff Specialization as is for players who don't care for the Item Defense.

What if it was added to Staff Training:
- Acrobat Staff Training I: +1 to hit and damage with quarterstaves
- Acrobat Staff Training II: +1 to hit and +2 damage with quarterstaves, 25% chance to negate item wear
- Acrobat Staff Training III:+1 to hit and damage with quarterstaves, 50% chance to negate item wear
- Acrobat Staff Training IV:+1 to hit and +2 damage with quarterstaves, 75% chance to negate item wear

I'm fine with it only affecting Staffs, but not sure if that's possible.

Although, adding it to the cores might be the best, due to the stacking nature of Acrobat and Henshin Staff Training. I could see it and cores 3, 6, and 12.

I don't know why you guys are coming up with bizarre ways to incorporate Item Defense into Thief-Acrobat. It should go into Tier 1 Mechanic.

[General_Gronker]

I don't know why you guys are coming up with bizarre ways to incorporate Item Defense into Thief-Acrobat. It should go into Tier 1 Mechanic.

Oh, oh! Mr. Kotter! Oh, oh!!

It's because quarterstaves are fragile as heck! Especially if you're a cleaver. Seriously, I imagine that's why.

[Saekee]

I don't know why you guys are coming up with bizarre ways to incorporate Item Defense into Thief-Acrobat. It should go into Tier 1 Mechanic.

This is a great point. I wish Sev would launch a discussion of the mechanic tree. It makes it easier to judge the other two.

[Myrddinman]

I don't know why you guys are coming up with bizarre ways to incorporate Item Defense into Thief-Acrobat. It should go into Tier 1 Mechanic.

I can live with it being somewhere in the Rogue trees, and Mechanic does have some thematic appeal, but...

It's because quarterstaves are fragile as heck! Especially if you're a cleaver. Seriously, I imagine that's why.

[Severlin]

This is a great point. I wish Sev would launch a discussion of the mechanic tree. It makes it easier to judge the other two.

The hold up is the player's council believes that Mechanic shouldn't go out without some kind of pass on constructed traps, and that's taking time as no trap pass was planned for this update.

Sev~

[UurlockYgmeov]

The hold up is the player's council believes that Mechanic shouldn't go out without some kind of pass on constructed traps, and that's taking time as no trap pass was planned for this update.

Sev~

I agree with all of this.

easy fix for traps - make disable device work like MP for constructed traps...

[IronClan]

I agree with all of this.

easy fix for traps - make disable device work like MP for constructed traps...

This ^^^ great idea. Then just fix their DC formula and get them to scale better, like allowing tactical bonuses to trap DC's and getting Epic levels as a +1 to DC so they scale up to level 28 content. Traps have so much going against them already and so much opportunity cost you almost need to make their DC's an afterthought... they are already a huge pain to make and not at all useful in a fast group.

The other problem with Mechanic is there are literally NO named Great Xbows not a one (self correct: Oladrin's but it might as well be loot gen). Nor even normal Xbows that are worthy of using. Give me an Epic Sword Of Shadows polymorphed into a Great crossbow and I'm building a Mechanic tomorrow.

[EllisDee37]

I don't know why you guys are coming up with bizarre ways to incorporate Item Defense into Thief-Acrobat. It should go into Tier 1 Mechanic.

The fragility of qstaffs is an equal problem for both acrobats and henshin mystics. Putting a solution in the mechanic tree unfairly leaves henshin mystics out in the cold.

[IronClan]

The fragility of qstaffs is an equal problem for both acrobats and henshin mystics. Putting a solution in the mechanic tree unfairly leaves henshin mystics out in the cold.

I have a capped Staff build that uses a wooden staff and I can't imagine throwing away AP on item defense... Adamantine ritual makes even a wooden staff the same as any sword.

[EllisDee37]

I have a capped Staff build that uses a wooden staff and I can't imagine throwing away AP on item defense... Adamantine ritual makes even a wooden staff the same as any sword.

Sireth, by chance?

[Failedlegend]

This ^^^ great idea. Then just fix their DC formula and get them to scale better, like allowing tactical bonuses to trap DC's and getting Epic levels as a +1 to DC so they scale up to level 28 content. Traps have so much going against them already and so much opportunity cost you almost need to make their DC's an afterthought... they are already a huge pain to make and not at all useful in a fast group.

The other problem with Mechanic is there are literally NO named Great Xbows not a one (self correct: Oladrin's but it might as well be loot gen). Nor even normal Xbows that are worthy of using. Give me an Epic Sword Of Shadows polymorphed into a Great crossbow and I'm building a Mechanic tomorrow.

Well imo one thing the G Xbow should do is what Xbows are famous for "pierce" through PRR and Fortification. Sure it fires alot slower than a bow or repeater but it packs a whallop when some who knows what their doing (mechanic) wields them with deadly precision.

[Myrddinman]

The hold up is the player's council believes that Mechanic shouldn't go out without some kind of pass on constructed traps, and that's taking time as no trap pass was planned for this update.


Sev~

I agree that traps need a pass. Which brings us to this...

easy fix for traps - make disable device work like MP for constructed traps...

^ Yes...great idea!

The other problem with Mechanic is there are literally NO named Great Xbows not a one (self correct: Oladrin's but it might as well be loot gen). Nor even normal Xbows that are worthy of using. Give me an Epic Sword Of Shadows polymorphed into a Great crossbow and I'm building a Mechanic tomorrow.

Indeed! Any discussion of Mechanic (and I know this isn't the thread for it) needs to include Crossbows and Great Crossbows, along with traps.

Well imo one thing the G Xbow should do is what Xbows are famous for "pierce" through PRR and Fortification. Sure it fires alot slower than a bow or repeater but it packs a whallop when some who knows what their doing (mechanic) wields them with deadly precision.

Again, I want to save most of this for the Mechanic thread, but...


Even if they remain slow, give them more CC options in the tree (other than knockdown on vorpal), like Pin and Slow...and something that allows the bolts to explode upon impact.

[dunklezhan]

The hold up is the player's council believes that Mechanic shouldn't go out without some kind of pass on constructed traps, and that's taking time as no trap pass was planned for this update.

Sev~

Yes please, I can certainly wait if a quick pass on constructed traps comes with the end result.

[Severlin]

Let's save Mechanic and/or Trap discussion for that eventual thread. Sorry for my derail.

Sev~

[UurlockYgmeov]

Let's save Mechanic and/or Trap discussion for that eventual thread. Sorry for my derail.

Sev~

bad Kobold! ;p

[Vyrzain]

Because it does not hurt to ask and because I think there should be more of a reason to get some benefits from being Pure Classed and or to stay Specialized in said Prestige Class have an idea for you to consider.

Also to stay more in the Role-Playing theme of the Acrobat and to try not to add “easy buttons” but to give a little more flavor.

Maybe for each point spent into the Acrobat Tree one would get +0.5 or +1 to Tumble and or Jump Skills.

Extra Tumble would help get to your 36 “Forward Dive” faster and also to be able to do this while in Stealth easier. Since Stealth gives a minus 20 to this Skill. Plus the Acrobat would be able to reduce falling damage a little more then most. But not nearly as much as a Monk with “Slow Fall”. Since a lot of the Acrobat abilities are based off a Tumble adding this bonus to the Skill should make the Acrobat that invests heavily in the Acrobat Tree slightly better then one that does not.

Extra Jump, as with Tumble, fits the Acrobat theme and gives small benefits for staying in that Class / Tree. Again to Fall Damage and to be able to Jump while Stealth.

NOTE… please do not say it is easy to get to 40+ in these Skills because one can use “Clickies” / “Scrolls” / “Potions” / “Flavor Buffs”. I would prefer the Class stay pure then to rely on items. Others can use these items to get up to what the Acrobat should be able to do naturally from his / her training.

Your thoughts…