Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[CThruTheEgo]

Bards and paladins have no weakness? well they also don't get 15d6 of damage in melee with a bluff or party.

No, they don't. But paladins get insane crits and bards get an insane number of crits. That 15d6 (which is 29d6 on the assassin in my sig) doesn't compare to the dps of bard or paladin. Both currently do far more damage than a rogue and, based on the proposed changes for both trees, I don't see rogues catching up much.

That's what I don't really get about the proposed changes to rogues. They are not doing anything to bring rogues up to speed with the other revamps. DPS will still lag, as will damage mitigation and self healing. So all the ways in which rogues are currently behind the revamped classes, will remain if the changes go live in their current form.

[Munkenmo]

While using a skill total as a DC was an interesting experiment for Swashbuckler's Coup de Grace, I don't think we will be doing that again. The scale at which typical DCs and skills advance is to far apart to use it as a common mechanic.

Sev~

Wow... You couldn't have figured that out in advance...

Newsflash. There's a reason fascinate used to be the primary source of CC in epic Von 6.

[Qezuzu]

Bards and paladins have no weakness? well they also don't get 15d6 of damage in melee with a bluff or party.

Both of them still do more damage than Rogues, at the very least I know for a fact that Paladins do. "These classes need weaknesses" just didn't seem to be a design goal when going through their passes, so it's annoying that something like taking huge spike damage (because no PRR, just dodge) without any good means to recover from it beyond ED abilities (because no innate self-heals nor healing amp, heal scrolls suck) is a purposeful weakness of Rogues.

[CThruTheEgo]

Both of them still do more damage than Rogues, at the very least I know for a fact that Paladins do. "These classes need weaknesses" just didn't seem to be a design goal when going through their passes, so it's annoying that something like taking huge spike damage (because no PRR, just dodge) without any good means to recover from it beyond ED abilities (because no innate self-heals nor healing amp, heal scrolls suck) is a purposeful weakness of Rogues.

^This, exactly. I don't understand the disparity.

[Thrudh]

If you read any rogue guides dating back to before the enhancement pass, before Motu, you will find that the best players would tell you that getting agro with a rogue is doing it wrong. Rogues were just as squishy back then. Managing agro is one of the skills to be learned in this game, and most of the people i see frequently dying with their squishy toons are quite deficient in this area.

This.

[Thrudh]

And if you remember back then, anything other than an Assassin was just a flavor build that no one took seriously. Heck, I was kicked out of some groups upon joining them back then when it was discovered that I was an acrobat instead of an assassin because assassins were only accepted because DPS is king in DDO. That's not the case now, but it was back then so old guides focused mostly on Assassins, although they are still useful.

Acrobats do grab aggro more than the other rogues, because Acrobats are hitting everything. It's been brought up by others, but the whole tree is built around jumping into or behind a group of monsters and hitting everything with cleaves and glancing blows then moving out of the way when you grab aggro. But aggro will be grabbed, whether intentional or not just from the stick fighting style.

Rogues were king of DPS back then, and only bad players didn't realize it... (funny enough, quite a bit of the elitists back then were bad players). If soloing you used radiance rapiers to let you sneak attack nearly all the time, and if in a group, you let someone else get aggro, then you killed the mobs before they even had a chance to turn around because TWF sneak attack was insane DPS.

Having multiple rogues in a raid group was awesome DPS, because the boss could only have aggro on one person at a time, so the other N-1 rogues were always getting sneak attack.

[oradafu]

This.

Yet you think Acrobats shouldn't dive straight into mobs, when Severin has anted up on Acrobats doing just that.

[RD2play]

While using a skill total as a DC was an interesting experiment for Swashbuckler's Coup de Grace, I don't think we will be doing that again. The scale at which typical DCs and skills advance is to far apart to use it as a common mechanic.

Sev~

You could change it to half perform mod and bards would still be able to make the upper 90s in DC maybe something to think about.

I for one find it ridicules bard has a better instakill ability than rogue

[Thrudh]

Yet you think Acrobats shouldn't dive straight into mobs, when Severin has anted up on Acrobats doing just that.

I'll use it in 90% of the content, where rogues can handle the aggro... Worst case, if I misjudge what I can handle, I'll tumble away, and use Staff Vault to clear some space so I can handle the mobs one by one.

I'm not stupid enough to use that ability blindly in end-game epic-elites... There I will play smart, and not bite off more than I can chew... It's a fun challenge, and rewarding when I succeed...

Others, on the other hand, WILL use that ability in the hardest content, die, and then come here and complain to the devs to make rogues less squishy so that the hardest content becomes easy for them, no matter how badly they play.

[oradafu]

I'll use it in 90% of the content, where rogues can handle the aggro... Worst case, if I misjudge what I can handle, I'll tumble away, and use Staff Vault to clear some space so I can handle the mobs one by one.

I'm not stupid enough to use that ability blindly in end-game epic-elites... There I will play smart, and not bite off more than I can chew... It's a fun challenge, and rewarding when I succeed...

Others, on the other hand, WILL use that ability in the hardest content, die, and then come here and complain to the devs to make rogues less squishy so that the hardest content becomes easy for them, no matter how badly they play.

Well, that's a far different reaction than the previously flat out "rogue(s) can't charge in and get surrounded by 15 mobs". The change to Staff Lunge pushes Acrobats further into that exact situation, instead of tumbling/positioning yourself behind the group of mobs that helps mitigate some damage.

[Thrudh]

Well, that's a far different reaction than the previously flat out "rogue(s) can't charge in and get surrounded by 15 mobs". The change to Staff Lunge pushes Acrobats further into that exact situation, instead of tumbling/positioning yourself behind the group of mobs that helps mitigate some damage.

Everything we discuss here concerning class balance is usually about end-game epic elite.... And in that case, I'm correct, and I'm perfectly fine with the fact that rogues can't charge in and get surrounded by 15 mobs. They have to play differently than tanks, and that's okay...

Or were you talking about heroic elites? Are you saying staff rogues need help there too? Because I don't think they do.

Lots of enhancement trees have abilities you can use in some quests (or level ranges), but they aren't as good in other quests or at different levels.

I'll probably enjoy Staff Lunge when playing heroic elite or epic hard, but I'll be a lot more careful with it when playing end-game epic elite, and that's okay.

[davmuzl]

Thanks for the discussion. Here are some responses:

~ Yes, spike damage is a weakness of Rogues and other dodge based builds. This is by design.

~ On the topic of Sneak Attack and the top content having undead and constructs; this doesn't prevent people from putting value into Holy Sword and other critical boosting abilities, so using this as an argument that Sneak Attack isn't valuable is less compelling to us.

~ Once we decide what to do with Momentum Attack we will be holding off on other changes until we see how these play on Lamannia.

Sev~

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't undead and consructs mostly completly immune to sneak attacks while they can be crit with the correct abilities and items?

[Severlin]

Removed Momentum Defense and added Spinning Staff Wall.

Sev~

[Severlin]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't undead and consructs mostly completly immune to sneak attacks while they can be crit with the correct abilities and items?

If you are not using Assassin's Trick, yes that is possible with certain items and abilities.

Sev~

[Caprice]

Removed Momentum Defense and added Spinning Staff Wall.

Sev~

FW(L)IW I can get behind the new ability. It's not a personal wishlist item but it should fill the gap. ;-)

[Thrudh]

Removed Momentum Defense and added Spinning Staff Wall.

Sev~

Ooh that is very nice indeed.. thank you!

Spinning Staff Wall: (2 AP) Active: Activate to gain 50 Physical Resistance Rating for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 90 seconds. Passive: While wearing light or cloth armor gain 5% Dodge, 5% Maximum Dodge, and 5 Maximum Dexterity Bonus for Light Armor.

[bbqzor]

Removed Momentum Defense and added Spinning Staff Wall.

Okay here we go. This acknowledges and addresses the problem, while specifically working towards TA playstyle. Excellent. If I was you, Id make the active part only useable in light armor too, but limiting boosts by gear worn may be beyond whats easily done. In any event, this is a solid T5 replacement, and thank you.

If you are not using Assassin's Trick, yes that is possible with certain items and abilities.

Itd be nice to see something that doesnt encourage all rogues spend "mandatory" points into assassin on this. I think its pretty easy to say Mechanics maybe ought to get something equivalent for constructs (so they can stay in-tree against constructs at least, maybe wrack removes immunity in addition to fort bypass or whatever). Perhaps TA can get something like "after tumbling while using a quarterstaff, ignores mob sneak attack immunity for 12s" or whatever in the lv12 core. Shrug, just some ideas. Its the last "obstacle" to TA rogues playing smooth so to speak, that wrinkle of not only losing their crit benefits (T5 enhancement) but also their sneak (bonus dice) is tough for a tree that already (by necessity) gives up offhand applications of those dice. Maybe you think of something. Cheers.

[Qhualor]

Removed Momentum Defense and added Spinning Staff Wall.

Sev~

why do I feel this is too much? it sounds to me like you are practically negating any incoming damage for those 20 seconds. does it stack with Uncanny Dodge? if you don't mind the constant clicking, you could use both for those "oh s***" moments or just alternate between the two.

[Myrddinman]

While using a skill total as a DC was an interesting experiment for Swashbuckler's Coup de Grace, I don't think we will be doing that again. The scale at which typical DCs and skills advance is to far apart to use it as a common mechanic.

Sev~

This is too bad, as I think it's viable idea, especially for a CC trip and not for an instakill.

Perhaps it can use Rogue level (opposed to 1/2 Rogue level), which would discourage splashing. Better yet, make it character level so that it scales better into Epic levels. Also, give it highest ability modifier, for greater build flexibility.

[Myrddinman]

Removed Momentum Defense and added Spinning Staff Wall.

Sev~

Nice! I think this will fit nicely.

Also, I seem to remember a Dev mentioning a while back that some new named Light Armors will be debuting in upcoming updates? Not sure if I was dreaming or not