Rogue - Assassin Changes

[ToastyFred]

Right and in DDO that is included in proficiency. No bearing on INT.


False.
This would only be true if your assassin was nerfed to perfrom worse than it did prior to updates. Which is the exact opposite as now they perform better than they did before the update. This all boils down to "Whaa, my thing is now worse than the new thing, pls nerf".

You know, if I were a Dev, I'd drop Dex as an Assassinate option just to spite you. You are not winning any friends here with your poor attitude. You certainly aren't convincing anyone either.

[depositbox]

You know, if I were a Dev, I'd drop Dex as an Assassinate option just to spite you. You are not winning any friends here with your poor attitude. You certainly aren't convincing anyone either.

Why would I want spiteful friends?

[slarden]

False.
This would only be true if your assassin was nerfed to perfrom worse than it did prior to updates. Which is the exact opposite as now they perform better than they did before the update. This all boils down to "Whaa, my thing is now worse than the new thing, pls nerf".

Negative, it is because int builds will be vastly inferior to dex builds and I don't want to run a sub-optimal build just because it's better than before.

As far as I know the devs are making dex and int builds available to all of us so neither is "my thing".

For me it's about not wanting to do major respec'ing - nothing else. That is why i wanted balance

So far you've attacked and criticized enough. Why don't you show us an int build that competes with dex builds instead of simply calling us whiners for pointing out balance issues.

[ToastyFred]

Why would I want spiteful friends?

That's the only kind you could make?

[Full_Bleed]

Everything we've said about balance since the dex to assassinate change was announced is all stuff that we said before the announcement. They knew what needed to be changed and how it could have been changed to provide balance. So if the devs really wanted to balance int and dex, they would have done so before the announcement and included those changes with it.

Well, my thoughts on the devs not moving INT To-Hit/Dmg and Insightful Reflex to Assassin cores is that whether or not they balanced the design may not have been the deciding factor against them.

The deciding factors against them might have been:

1) Not to obsolete one of the best aspects of the Harper Tree.
2) Not to try balancing by giving out a free feat like Insightful Reflex (which could seriously affect more than just rogues).

So I began looking at options that might fit better with what it seems like they are trying to do.

Plus, there's also the fact that according to their way of analyzing (which seems rather out of touch with actual gameplay), int is balanced with dex.

I'm loathe to discard their PoV entirely, but I do know that I will be ERing into a DEX build. Even though I won't be getting as much out of it as the min-maxers (like popping tensers and yugos all the time), it will be a buff for me over my INT build.


Anyway, going to repost my above suggestions and invite more opinions/feedback. With all the trash-talking going on now, I wouldn't blame the devs for ignoring much of what's going on here. I came up with these because I thought they were INT thematic and might be easy for the devs to implement if they've come around to seeing the general consensus that DEX builds will be superior. Neither is as "balancing" as getting the free feat and 4 aps from Harpers that they've obviously decided against, but both do sweeten the pot.

1) If INT is higher than DEX, MTF can get 1 more stack and an extra 2 seconds on the cooldown? Thematically makes sense. The smarter guy should be better at "Measuring a Foe". This would be a tangible benefit for an INT build. +6 MP, +2% Dodge, +2% MDB, +1 Hit, +1 Assassinate DC for 12 seconds after stealth.

2) If INT is higher than DEX, let Assassin's Trick apply an Assassin's Mark. INT builds would be getting 2 AP from this because they wouldn't have to take the ineffective poisons to get the mark.

Other thoughts and ideas?

[redoubt]

Other thoughts and ideas?

I've poured too much of myself into trying to help the rogue fix already. I even TR'd back to rogue to test this stuff on live (was working on some past lives). I've spent all my time running my assassin and not running my other characters because I wanted to get as much time and information as I could to provide better feedback.

At this point, I'm just tired. I love this game. I love my rogue. But it appears Turbine has decided they are done with us. In the beginning this thread was awesome and we had great interaction with the developers. Since the update that has really fallen off, and I must admit to being disappointed by that.

That brings me around to, I don't have any more ideas for now. I've put them all in this thread already. But I do want to say thank you for continuing to stay positive and try to promote constructive discussion on how to make assassins better. And thank you to all here who have done so.

[CThruTheEgo]

Well, my thoughts on the devs not moving INT To-Hit/Dmg and Insightful Reflex to Assassin cores is that whether or not they balanced the design may not have been the deciding factor against them.

The deciding factors against them might have been:

1) Not to obsolete one of the best aspects of the Harper Tree.
2) Not to try balancing by giving out a free feat like Insightful Reflex (which could seriously affect more than just rogues).

So I began looking at options that might fit better with what it seems like they are trying to do.


I'm loathe to discard their PoV entirely, but I do know that I will be ERing into a DEX build. Even though I won't be getting as much out of it as the min-maxers (like popping tensers and yugos all the time), it will be a buff for me over my INT build.

While I can understand the reasons you mention for why they may not have made those changes in favor of int, it was the complete lack of any attempt to balance them that really stands out to me. They knew that we thought dex would kill int builds. They could have come up with their own options to create balance. But they didn't. And Sev cited some ridiculous reasons like int having more skills, getting 5 more points of damage from know the angles, and their mysterious dps tests as evidence of balance. All of that tells me they've made up their minds and that they seem to believe, no matter how much we disagree, that there is balance.

I could be completely wrong and they still are looking for ideas and are interested in our feedback. If that's the case, then I support your suggestions. I like them. If they're done, so be it. I don't mind making the switch to dex. All things eventually come to an end and it gives me a reason to play the game again on my assassin. Long live the dex based assassin!

[Bobby88888]

Sev I have a few questions that I would really appreciate if you could take the time to answer.

1. Do you have any plans to actually balance Dex and Int for assassins?
And I mean fully and properly balance. There is a huge list of imbalances giving dex a massive lead over Int and I would love to see that fixed so I don't go from one of the best Rogues on my server to one of the worst just because I want to play my Rogue in flavour still. Beside from that if they were balanced this would actually add build diversity rather than annoying your Rogue players.
Right now Dex comes out on top in every category, for lists view my previous posts or I can post again if you want.
I am happy to try come up with ideas but unless I know you are planning to take that path and looking for ideas I am not wasting any more of my time doing that.

2. If you Don't plan on balancing Dex and Int, do you consider removing the Dex part from Assassinate DC an option?
On live Dex is for Defences and DPS while Int is for Assassinate, if Dex goes to Assassinate DC Int looses that and gains nothing. Do you simply not care about the flavour and themes of the Rogue Assassin?

3. If you are neither going to balance Dex and Int or remove Dex may I ask why?
I just want to know what the reason for killing rogue flavour is if that is what you are planning on doing, for instance you might have something else coming out in u26 that will give a huge boosts to Int rogues that we don't know about (not that I think that is likely but its possible )

4. Do you plan to address the glass... sword? status of rogue?
If they will be doing similar DPS to a swash build but have worse defences and much worse heals then they have average damage with terrible survivability. Can we either have glass cannon or regular sword status. please.


If these concerns aren't adequately addressed, more importantly if 1. or 2. isn't adequately addressed, then I hate to say it, but this Rogue pass will be a failure.
Sure our power will go up, from a glass tree branch to a glass sword, but that is only for Dex builds who already had a place in DDO. Int builds will just go up to a glass dagger status but now they don't have a place in DDO.

Why am I even using glass weaponry/objects as power level guides?


"Death Attack: If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack."

Actually this gave me a cool idea.......
If something is immune to insta kills (undead, elementals, orange nameds on EH/EE, red/purple nameds????) When you try to assassinate them they instead are paralysed or some other form of CC, inducing helplessness. That would be a really cool, thematic and flavourful ability.

Back to my point for quoting Assassinate ability from 3.5. The DC is from Int mod and it explains why, but that isn't so important anymore but just for the record on that discussion while I am posting might as well clear the air.

Ok sorry, now my point. DDO has its roots in 3.5, sure its branched out and moved away a lot but its roots are still there and in 3.5 Assassinate is Int based, and Int only, that doesn't mean DDO has to keep it Int only, as I said DDO has evolved a lot from where it came from. But I think that it means that Int should remain a viable option for Assassins, at least on par with Dex, if not better than Dex is terms of Assassinate at least since as, given the above quote, Int is clearly how you assassinate.

That said, a formula of say Rog lvl +Int mod +1/3 Dex mod. Int build: (20+27+5=52) then add on 6 assassinate item, 6 ED, 2 capstone = 64 +5 MtF = 69
Dex build: 20+15+11+6+6+2+5=65 (bonuses in same order as above)
I used the Stats from the comparison builds I posted earlier in the thread.
That gets out a similar DC to live and incorporates Dex mod, though Dex coms out slightly lower there the formula can easily be tweaked to balance them. Ofc further balancing on terms of DPS, defences and maybe differentiating them on assassinate DC or other things to do with assassinate are needed to balance them properly.
EDIT - The other thing to remember was the Dex build I used for those numbers had base 12 Int, so could get up to 3 more DC from rearranging base stats.

And I just said I wasn't going to waste more time with suggestions and ideas until I knew if you were still planning on fixing Assassin. Guess I fooled me at least.

Thanks Sev

[slarden]

If these concerns aren't adequately addressed, more importantly if 1. or 2. isn't adequately addressed, then I hate to say it, but this Rogue pass will be a failure.
Sure our power will go up, from a glass tree branch to a glass sword, but that is only for Dex builds who already had a place in DDO. Int builds will just go up to a glass dagger status but now they don't have a place in DDO.

Is the frustration because you have to redo your character, gear, etc. or is there another reason?

While I completely agree the lack of balancing and subsequent excuses were just wrong, I don't agree the rogue pass was a failure. The upcoming changes are a big boost and I suspect a some may be underestimating how big the 10 damage from the mark + 1 crit multiplier + 150% MP scaling for sneak attack damage really is. I am very happy about sneak speed and some of the other changes also.

While I dislike the lack of int/dex balancing because it means I have to reroll or be supbar, I ultimately think dex will open many new build types and is another proxy-buff to assassins. I think int assassin ends up being a trap for new and casual players.

Still, it will be fun trying out something different. Dex is the new stat for assassins and I think it's unlikely the devs will make any significant changes to these trees for a long time.

[Bobby88888]

Is the frustration because you have to redo your character, gear, etc. or is there another reason?

While I completely agree the lack of balancing and subsequent excuses were just wrong, I don't agree the rogue pass was a failure. The upcoming changes are a big boost and I suspect a some may be underestimating how big the 10 damage from the mark + 1 crit multiplier + 150% MP scaling for sneak attack damage really is. I am very happy about sneak speed and some of the other changes also.

While I dislike the lack of int/dex balancing because it means I have to reroll or be supbar, I ultimately think dex will open many new build types and is another proxy-buff to assassins. I think int assassin ends up being a trap for new and casual players.

Still, it will be fun trying out something different. Dex is the new stat for assassins and I think it's unlikely the devs will make any significant changes to these trees for a long time.

The frustration is that they are killing the flavour of the assassin. I have already any gear I would switch to probably though deciding on an arrangement is annoying.
Yes there have been some good buffs to the Assassin but I am not measuring success on power alone, for me flavour is very important too. Sure not everyone cares about flavour that is why I am fine with having a Dex option if ppl want it but I don't think it should totally eclipse Int, and as long as they are adding a Dex option but not making it level with the Int I will consider the pass a failure.

There is no need to completely change the main stat of the assassin, can they add another option to it? sure, as long as the old option remains viable.
Imagine the outrage if with the fighter pass they changed all the tactical feats to use wisdom for their DC. Certainly it wouldn't be too hard to slot in a bunch of Wis items and move forwards but I doubt it would be popular. If it was a change of use X or Wis where X is whatever if was before but people would probably question why the change but find that it has little effect on them unless they really wanted a high Wis ftr and move on with a shrug.

At least that is the way I see it.

Though I still think Assassin DPS will probably be too low given their weak defences and no self heals but that is a less important issue.

EDIT - having to TR/LR/ER is also a bit annoying but I would do that regardless of change eventually anyway.

[Erofen]

There is no need to completely change the main stat of the assassin, can they add another option to it? sure, as long as the old option remains viable.
Imagine the outrage if with the fighter pass they changed all the tactical feats to use wisdom for their DC. Certainly it wouldn't be too hard to slot in a bunch of Wis items and move forwards but I doubt it would be popular. If it was a change of use X or Wis where X is whatever if was before but people would probably question why the change but find that it has little effect on them unless they really wanted a high Wis ftr and move on with a shrug.

At least that is the way I see it.

Though I still think Assassin DPS will probably be too low given their weak defences and no self heals but that is a less important issue.

Except the main two stats for a rogue regardless of prestige have always been dex and int. Wisdom besides will saves is irrelevant to a fighter. Also really getting tired of people referring to if they not the best they are not viable or proxy nerfed. Int still has significant advantages and disadvantages.

No, it is still a very important issue. I am not asking for barb like heals, but we need something. Maybe akin to crusader and heal on sneak attack kill? The defenses and hp also need a look at, because dodge just does not cut it. When rogues get hit they splat. Low base hp does not help at all either.

[Bobby88888]

Except the main two stats for a rogue regardless of prestige have always been dex and int. Wisdom besides will saves is irrelevant to a fighter. Also really getting tired of people referring to if they not the best they are not viable or proxy nerfed. Int still has significant advantages and disadvantages.

No, it is still a very important issue. I am not asking for barb like heals, but we need something. Maybe akin to crusader and heal on sneak attack kill? The defenses and hp also need a look at, because dodge just does not cut it. When rogues get hit they splat. Low base hp does not help at all either.

No example is perfect since it is unlikely anywhere there is the same problem to relate to it exactly, that sort of nit pick is just trying to blocka n argument that you have no counterargument for. Put in Con in the example then since ftrs will probs have that higher.
Int assassins still need good dex, I have a 40 dex on my Int assassin since I need that for sneaking, an incredibly important part of the assassinate ability. But a Dex assassin can dump Int.
Give me a list of the advantages of Int over Dex then please so I can see what advantages you are talking about and make me realise my stance is wrong.
I gave a list of the advantages of Dex over Int a few pages back and it was a long list, there was a line or 2 of advantages Int had over dex but most of those were arbitrary or could be made up by swapping ED with your vastly higher DC, infact the only one that couldn't be made back was +20 hamp that I could find.

And I am really tired of people saying that Int is just as good as Dex with this change when it clearly isn't and plenty of evidence has been provided to prove it isn't while no evidence has been provided to show that they are on an equal, or nearly equal footing. Probably because no such evidence exists.
Everyone is planning up the Dex builds now, all the forum builds are being converted over, everyone is saying they will go dex. I wonder why, maybe everyone just feels like going dex based on a whim.

Sure Int would still be viable, but why bother with it when just by increasing Dex anyplace you could increase Int you could turn out much more powerful, it doesn't add up at all. From a min/max perspective or a flavour perspective.


Ignoring that whole mess but, I don't think heal on kill is a good idea for it, Making wand and scroll mastery accessible for all rogues and possibly a small UMD bonus are all the buffs rogues should get on heals IMO, should be concentrated on defence, offence and utility. And if Int and Dex were balanced they could highlight different areas of those so you can pick, do I want more damage? go X stat, more defence? go Y stat, or better Assassinate? go Z stat. No I am not saying put 3 stats pick 2 of them and leave the 3rd as an equal parameter.

[redoubt]

Ideas:

1. 5% per rogue level of DW & DB bypass
2. Shadow Dancer: 5% per core of DW & DB bypass
3. Rogue bonus feat option: quicken scroll
4. Rogue bonus feat option: healing amp 20
5. INT to hit in core1
6. INT to damage in core2
7. Insightful reflexes in core 18
8. New icon for epic ward so it is not confused with DW.
9. Make sneaking and breaking line of sight, break the agro lock of mobs.
10. Implement a critical success/fail system for assassinate
11. combine dex and int in the assassinate DC
12. have nimbleness increase MDB and max dodge
13. have MTF increase MDB (it already increases max dodge)
14. make killer expire one stack at a time
15. make MTF last at least 12 seconds (15 would be better)
16. put a timer in the MTF icon on the buff bar
17. make nimbleness expire one stack at a time
18. make MTF expire one stack at a time
19. implement a system to allow us to activate switches and open doors without exiting sneak. (mobs can look for us, that's fine, just don't auto-pull me out of sneak.)
20. make lethality an assassinate check on vorpal (15 second cooldown.)

These are not all my ideas, just the ones I could remember off the top of my head. Its not like the community failed to provide ideas. Half of these are not even about DPS...

[gwonbush]

Too late for more ideas, patch tomorrow.

[BigErkyKid]

Too late for more ideas, patch tomorrow.

What? Oh wow! So the changes we saw here were mostly a preview, not a WIP?

Anyway, I guess its some DPS and dodge and the structural problems of the class will just have to be solved by the players with their play style.

You can always roll a MF repeater mechanic if your rogue is too frustrating to play as assassin or TA. Ranged easy button for the win?

[Bobby88888]

If what we have seen is what we are getting then I am very Disappointed. Not a happy customer.
These changes are a huge let down, you could have done some unique cool and interesting things but instead you completely kill the flavour of the Assassin and just chuck on MP and crit multipliers. Great way to homogenise the game, the game needs the flavour to keep things feeling different and unique. If every class is just about getting the biggest crit multiplier and the highest MP then why bother having anything more than 1 melee and 1 caster class, after all everyone can self heal now so we don't need the healer category. But what would I know I am only a player of the game.

When it was announced Rog would be next up for a revamp I was quite excited at the prospect of some new life being given to them. But they still have basically the worst self heals in the game (not that I'm saying that is a bad thing for that point at least), they still have very poor defences, and their dmg is now average as opposed to poor. And you changed it from where you could be both flavourful and good to flavourful or good (and noone try and tell me Int is more powerful than before because it is, but why would you go with a build that is weaker in every department for any reason except flavour?) and if the game difficult increases then the flavour option will nolonger be something you can play in EE. So you can be Dex or go home.

Sure it would've take a bit of work to balance Dex and Int, but it would've been even less work to not implement the Dex in the first place, which you knew wasn't balanced since there was an overwhelming amount of responses saying as much when you tentatively suggested it initially. So it seems that you intentionally set out to degrade the class and remove the flavour, which is far worse again and seems a bit of a silly thing to do. Given that I really hope you have done more since you last posted changes and acted on all the feedback you have been given and actually produced something good, though the silence isn't reassuring me that is the case and I am not holding my breath.

Just look a few posts up and you can see a list of just a handful of the ideas the community had that were more focused on enhancing the flavour with a little power gain, not that it matters much if dex goes in without balancing the flavour of the class is smashed to bits anyway.

Push this back as long as you need to fix it an get it right, I can wait another few weeks if it means actually getting a finished product that has been thought out and well made.

Sigh, not likely but, try again with the next class and hope that doesn't go so poorly, and put rogue back on the list of classes that needs redoing and try again soon

[slarden]

I think int builds can still be the top single-target dps by a slight edge and that will be their niche. To get this edge they will need to drop a little int which is now possible with the DC bonus in the capstone. An example with Drow:

Racial Tree: 0 (avoids the 2 wasted AP to get 2 int)
Assassin Tree: 44 including mark for 10 damage
Acrobat Tree: 11 for Fast Movement, 2x Sly Flourish, 3x Subtlety and 3x Haste Boost
Harper Tree: 25 for KTA of 13-14 and 6 Melee Power +1 weapon enchantment bonus from harper enchantment and + 2 damage against evil from Harper Agent of Good

By dropping 2 int I am losing 1 DC and 1 damage, but am gaining haste boost and a few more points for assassin which is needed now to fit everything in. To pick up the other damage boost in Assassin I would need to drop execuite and the 1 point I have to light armor mastery. This probably isn't needed, but to max single target dps it can be done.

Without completionist and Littany your Int is 62 and KTA 13. With completionist and Littany Int is 66 and KTA is 14. The trade-off dex builds get is alot more AP freedom and survivability.

So for max single-target damage an int build would go:

1st Degree Burns from TF Weapon - up to 20% vulnerability
KTA: 14 damage
10 Damage from Mark
30% Damage Action Boost Twist from Legendary Dreadnought

Compared to pre-U25 the int-based assassin is doing 10 extra damage and their sneak damage is scaling with 150% melee power - so it's clearly better than before, but still lagging behind dex builds overall- but with very solid boss damage

Dex Build would have

+1 damage from higher dex vs. int (68 vs 66)
- 7 KTA
+ 4 sneak attack dice (assuming int builds would take daunting roar over echoes of the ancestor shadowdancer - I know I would if I played an int build)

This is compared to a "boss beating" variant of this build (concept of boss beating variant came from cthru):

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-Assassin-1-0

To turn the halfling dex build into a boss-beater I would need to give up 4 dex (dropping dex from 72 to 68) and would lose no mercy, but I still have the full halfling healing line. This loss of 4 dex includes 1 rank of shadowdancer which is unfortunate.

Boss beating variant: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5598576

One benefit int builds have that dex builds can't match is daunting roar. I used this alot and it will be interesting to see how losing this easy button will impact me. I may have to be a little less aggressive since I have 1 less escape button. Although I think the healing line more than makes up for the loss of Daunting Roar assuming I manage aggro properly.

However I think most people will keep no mercy because helplessness state is so common when grouping and that extra 30% turns you into a beast. This means int builds will still be the best single-target assassins even though it's theoretically possible to match their single-target dps with a dex build.

[Ayseifn]

I think int builds can still ^be the top single-target dps by a slight edge and that will be their niche. To get this edge they will need to drop a little int which is now possible with the DC bonus in the capstone. An example with Drow:

Drow is a bad choice if you're comparing DPS, you miss out on human damage boost or if comparing to halfling possibly 3d6 SA.

[brzytki]

I use a 30% damage boost from LD as a drow (actually sun elf but same for this comparison). Is the 20% human damage boost on a different timer?

Yes it is. That's why human is a beast when it comes to burst DPS.

[slarden]

Drow is a bad choice if you're comparing DPS, you miss out on human damage boost or if comparing to halfling possibly 3d6 SA.

I use a 30% damage boost from LD as a drow (actually sun elf but same for this comparison). Is the 20% human damage boost on a different timer?

An int build doesn't have the AP to take the halfling sneak attack damage line. A dex build with much more freedom barely has the AP for that.

You are also forgetting that many of our race choices on existing int-assassins was made long before this upcoming update. Since I chose sun elf long ago harper tree was added and now the devs are making dex the best assassinate stat instead of int. When looking at WHY we chose the races we did requires looking at the game at the time the choice was made.