Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Jetrule]

A case could be made for Thematic dexterity based assassination. One of the most impossible things about assassinate is not its ability to kill with one well placed blow or cut. It is the ability to do so while remaining unseen and not breaking stealth. That is all superhuman agility and speed.

Thematically a character would need a certain base line amount of dexterity intelligence and strength to pull this off. Dr. Stephen Hawking with dump stats in dex and strength wouldn't be able to do this. A top athlete like a Olympic gymnast or a nfl corner back however would not need a great deal of anatomy training to make this a plausible scenario though.

[slarden]

DPS comes in many forms. My suggestions are about other ways of improving rogue survivability and offense within the level 18 core instead of simply adding a crit multiplier.

If anything, I would include the new crit multiplier to knife spec tier 5 (buff it even more) whereas right now it is the same as swashing with less options (only two weapon types).

True, but the simple way is more cost effective for Turbine. Your suggestion looked interesting, but I am glad they kept it simple. It's time to wrap up rogue and move on to something else. Overall I am happy to the buff to rogue, but disappointed they didn't balance int and dex assassins (probably for the same reason - keeping it simple). I look forward to trying out dex assassin after I get my warlock lifes in.

[redoubt]

Dex makes perfect sense for assassins flavor-wise. They have reached a level of dexterity that they can move and strike at unparalleled speed and precision. How does having insane reflexes not translate to being able to strike vital organs/openings? Int doesnt make sense.

A really dexterous character would be really good at hitting vital organs and weak points in armor. That sounds like criticals to me.

Assassinations are pre-planned strikes against targets that are not aware of you. It takes intelligence to plan that out.

[Munkenmo]

Assassinations are pre-planned strikes against targets that are not aware of you. It takes intelligence to plan that out.

One doesn't necessarily need much intelligence to follow the plan though. That dextrous guy who can hit vital organs and do as he's told is probably a really good assassin.

[redoubt]

The problem is we didn't make it easy for them to do that.

I suggested the extra feat (not needing insightful reflexes) and 4AP was the balance issue. Other people said it didn't matter. Some said defensive roll was the balance issue and others said that was no big deal. Some said dodge was the balance issue and others said it was a small difference. While most of the people playing int assassin agree dex will be better and plan to switch,they couldn't agree on the reasons why dex is better. Then throw in all the people playing dex builds saying no balancing was needed because they wanted it to be easy for turbine to add dex to assassinate so Turbine wouldn't abandon the idea.

Oh well, it's just a game.

Actually we did make it easy for them.

1. Put insightful reflexes in a high level assassin core or as an optional rogue feat. - easy
2. Change Core 1 & 2 to include INT to hit/damage with knives. - easy

But at this point I'm already plotting out my build for a Dex conversion. Dropping pretty much all 27 points I have in harper and moving most of it into Acrobat. Now that Acrobat 18 doesn't work without a staff I may skip that one, but that still picks up 4 points of dodge and other acrobat good stuff in the tree. I'll lose 9 melee power from harper, but I think the added defense will be good and i'll pick up some more offensive stuff in both assassin and acrobat that I couldn't afford due to the high investment in harper.

[redoubt]

Okay, I'm going to go way out on a limb here...

What if the Assassinate DC was 1/2 DEX + 1/2 INT? Thematically, you'd need DEX for positioning and INT for knowing where to strike.

I am intrigued by the idea. I think most assassins have strong scores in both anyway. On the whole I think it would drop the assassinate DC.

The value might need to be something like 3/4 DEX + 3/4 INT to keep the DCs from plummeting, but you would not be able to dump either and still have a good DC.

[redoubt]

One doesn't necessarily need much intelligence to follow the plan though. That dextrous guy who can hit vital organs and do as he's told is probably a really good assassin.

Who is telling him what to do? Someone with high INT?

[depositbox]

A really dexterous character would be really good at hitting vital organs and weak points in armor. That sounds like criticals to me.

Assassinations are pre-planned strikes against targets that are not aware of you. It takes intelligence to plan that out.

No.

[Myrddinman]

I am intrigued by the idea. I think most assassins have strong scores in both anyway. On the whole I think it would drop the assassinate DC.

The value might need to be something like 3/4 DEX + 3/4 INT to keep the DCs from plummeting, but you would not be able to dump either and still have a good DC.

Yeah, I didn't put whole lot of thought into the crunchiness of it, but it just seemed like a good balance.

[redoubt]

No.

That is some amazing logic. Hard to argue against that.

Some of us have been trying to work with the Devs on this for a long time and to have a productive conversation. Please be constructive or go somewhere else. Thank you.

[noble_pirate]

So I whipped up a dex build to compare to my Int build assassin:
<skip>

Make Int better Assassinate and utility, Dex better Defences and dps. Something like that, obviously utility isnt really useful but so probably go Int better Assassinate, Dex better Defences. If that creates too much imbalance on the assassinate side make Int better DPS and dex better defences.
With the ones not listed in any given pair being as equal as they can possibly be.

If you are going to do it, do it right or not at all please.

well said! 100% agreed

[slarden]

Actually we did make it easy for them.

1. Put insightful reflexes in a high level assassin core or as an optional rogue feat. - easy
2. Change Core 1 & 2 to include INT to hit/damage with knives. - easy

But at this point I'm already plotting out my build for a Dex conversion. Dropping pretty much all 27 points I have in harper and moving most of it into Acrobat. Now that Acrobat 18 doesn't work without a staff I may skip that one, but that still picks up 4 points of dodge and other acrobat good stuff in the tree. I'll lose 9 melee power from harper, but I think the added defense will be good and i'll pick up some more offensive stuff in both assassin and acrobat that I couldn't afford due to the high investment in harper.

You and I and some others agreed on this, and even Sev seemed to understand that in another thread in the general discussion forum, but others argued these things weren't significant.

[CThruTheEgo]

You and I and some others agreed on this, and even Sev seemed to understand that in another thread in the general discussion forum, but others argued these things weren't significant.

I see the value in them, I just didn't think they were the most significant. The synergy that dex based has with the acrobat tree is what is most significant imo. Even if these were added, it would still be no contest and dex based would be the optimal build. If the synergy between dex based and acrobat were reduced, then the addition of these would be necessary to help level the playing field, but without that reduction, they just don't matter.

[Bobby88888]

I see the value in them, I just didn't think they were the most significant. The synergy that dex based has with the acrobat tree is what is most significant imo. Even these were added, it would still be no contest and dex based would be the optimal build. If the synergy between dex based and acrobat were reduced, then the addition of these would be necessary to help level the playing field, but without that reduction, they just don't matter.

This.
Not to mention the better synergy between assassinate and dex due to more and easier to get dex, only some of which is from acro tree.

[slarden]

I see the value in them, I just didn't think they were the most significant. The synergy that dex based has with the acrobat tree is what is most significant imo. Even if these were added, it would still be no contest and dex based would be the optimal build. If the synergy between dex based and acrobat were reduced, then the addition of these would be necessary to help level the playing field, but without that reduction, they just don't matter.

Well yeah dex would still be better and that may be part of the reason why the devs made no attempt at balancing. They are basically intentionally replacing int with dex and then using their tests and the whole "skill point" thing as excuses so they don't have to give us hearts to respec. Still, if they made the small balancing attempt I would remain as an int build since all my gear and my race is optimized for an int build. With the current proposal there is definitely no reason to remain as an int build.

I think they want to put a bow on rogue and move on. If the next patch comes out this week I suspect that is the final rogue pass and nothing will be so OP that nerfs are needed in the future.

[Grace_ana]

I still think instead of dex being an assassinate stat it should be a dps stat. Maybe instead of just giving 2 SA dice in the capstone, you get your dex modifier/4 in SA dice. Even int rogues would get at least 2 like now, but dex rogues would get a boost to their dps in SA dice over int builds.

[CThruTheEgo]

Well yeah dex would still be better and that may be part of the reason why the devs made no attempt at balancing. They are basically intentionally replacing int with dex and then using their tests and the whole "skill point" thing as excuses so they don't have to give us hearts to respec. Still, if they made the small balancing attempt I would remain as an int build since all my gear and my race is optimized for an int build. With the current proposal there is definitely no reason to remain as an int build.

I think they want to put a bow on rogue and move on. If the next patch comes out this week I suspect that is the final rogue pass and nothing will be so OP that nerfs are needed in the future.

That's really the whole problem with dex to assassinate. There really isn't a way to minimize the synergy with acrobat without significant changes to acrobat, which would end up affecting them more than assassins. That's why they shouldn't allow dex to assassinate in the first place. But I think you're right, this is the change we are getting and it will be the last of them. Overall, I'm just glad we got more changes at all. The rogue pass was very incomplete without the most recent proposal.

Regarding gear, I don't know what your current setup is as int based, but I came up with a gear set for dex based and it's not that much different than the int version. In fact, the gear is arguably easier to acquire than what I had for the int version. I also added in insightful dex 2 to my int based gear set so I had a point of comparison to the new one. Check out post #212 in my thread for both gear sets if you're interested. And if you see any ways to improve it, either gear or the build, I'm definitely interested in suggestions.

[depositbox]

That is some amazing logic. Hard to argue against that.

Some of us have been trying to work with the Devs on this for a long time and to have a productive conversation. Please be constructive or go somewhere else. Thank you.

Sorry you seem to be under the impression that youre correct and are owed an explanation of why you are not correct. I already explained as have others in this thread why dexterity is of more importance to combatants than int. In short : Pro fighters, trained muscle memory from repetition, @int lolol

[changelingamuck]

Sorry you seem to be under the impression that youre correct and are owed an explanation of why you are not correct. I already explained as have others in this thread why dexterity is of more importance to combatants than int. In short : Pro fighters, trained muscle memory from repetition, @int lolol

I'm not the person whom you responded to. But the problem is with the tone you adopt in your posts. It's not just insubstantial; it's abrasive and flippant. For example, replying to people's thought-out thorough arguments with a dismissive one word "No." response like you've been doing repeatedly in threads is abrasive. I haven't been involved in any conversation with you personally, but it's off-putting to have to read those kinds of interactions while reading through a thread. Redoubt isn't the only one reading the forums who would appreciate not seeing that.

I realize that being abrasive is your right as a denizen of the internet. But please.

[redoubt]

Sorry you seem to be under the impression that youre correct and are owed an explanation of why you are not correct. I already explained as have others in this thread why dexterity is of more importance to combatants than int. In short : Pro fighters, trained muscle memory from repetition, @int lolol

And you are again responding with muscle memory and neglecting responding with any sort of intelligence.

An assassin is NOT a fighter. The act of assassinating someone is not combat. It is a preplanned surprise attack that kills the target without the target even getting a chance to defend or respond. You can see that DDO has and still does operate under this assumption. If you are seen by the target you CANNOT assassinate. The game will not let you. You MUST be in stealth and you MUST NOT have agro. This means that you are NOT in combat with your target.

IF you want to argue that when an assassin is in combat, that a highly dexterous assassin will do more damage than a purely smart one, I would agree. Once the combat begins, I think the trained muscle memory becomes much more important, but that is not what we were talking about.

Lastly, what I'm sorry about is that you seem to believe that your decorum here is appropriate, not to mention your misplaced superiority complex.