Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Delacroix21]

As the screenshot proved, the shown sneak attack damage doesn't change on helplessness. It gets added to the first number instead. Have you tested the changes to the first number on helplessness to see if it is larger than you would expect?

The screenshot proved your math was wrong. I do an average of 150 damage per hit blitzed + or - 30, and my sneak attack damage average is 123 + or - 20, So with all those boost running I should see (according to you) 723 damage a swing (150x2.65+123x2.65), which is double what I currently see. So no, your math is way off and it does not increase with helpless damage.


Edit= 2.65 comes from +50% base, +50% LD boost, +30% ninja spy, +30% sense weakness, +5% ship. I am also using shortswords so its not a handwrap issue.

[BigErkyKid]

Our testing includes both raw DPS tests and end game fully geared out builds in both sustained DPS tests and the "Bruntsmash" test for real world burst conditions, even though that test has a number of issues and is highly biased. Assassin is and was in great shape in heroic tests, but fell behind at end game in burst and sustained DPS. That's why you see the larger buff added at the tail end of heroic. No offense intended but we have no plans to introduce our testing docs to the players nor start the process of vetting our testing processes through the live forums. Players are more than welcome to share their own results and, as I hope players can see by these forums, if there was some off build we missed we try our best to respond to player feedback and information.

Sev~

I'll be the bad guy.

Some of us don't have any faith whatsoever on those tests. The reason being that you also talked about those tests BEFORE this badge of changes (we are talking about the time before the update) and you told us that they supported the idea that rogues were not much behind other top classes in DPS.

Now if those tests said that before, why do they say something different now?

OK. Let's say you revised them and you got them right now. You claim in this thread that the rogue has the DPS of a bard now.

Then how on earth can you talk about balance? The bard has burst self healing, better utility than the rogue (easy rogue splash with plenty of skill points), more sturdiness via easy stalwart splash and easier to reach helpless inducing stuns (freezing attacks).

The DPS of the rogue has to be spectacularly higher than that of the bard to even match real gameplay situations combat time adjusted DPS. Running around waiting for cocoon to tick or casting scrolls is not any good.

[brzytki]

The screenshot proved your math was wrong. I do an average of 150 damage per hit blitzed + or - 30, and my sneak attack damage average is 123 + or - 20, So with all those boost running I should see (according to you) 723 damage a swing (150x2.65+123x2.65), which is double what I currently see. So no, your math is way off and it does not increase with helpless damage.


Edit= 2.65 comes from +50% base, +50% LD boost, +30% ninja spy, +30% sense weakness, +5% ship. I am also using shortswords so its not a handwrap issue.

My test done today shows that SA is increased on helpless mobs. If as you say you are not seeing a significant increase on the base number with all of the sources you mention, then maybe some of them are not working correctly. But the base increase (not from enhancements or EDs) and ship buff are working correctly. It would be great if you could take a few screenshots of you against the dummy like i did and show us the results.

[draven1]

I'll be the bad guy.

Some of us don't have any faith whatsoever on those tests. The reason being that you also talked about those tests BEFORE this badge of changes (we are talking about the time before the update) and you told us that they supported the idea that rogues were not much behind other top classes in DPS.

Now if those tests said that before, why do they say something different now?

OK. Let's say you revised them and you got them right now. You claim in this thread that the rogue has the DPS of a bard now.

Then how on earth can you talk about balance? The bard has burst self healing, better utility than the rogue (easy rogue splash with plenty of skill points), more sturdiness via easy stalwart splash and easier to reach helpless inducing stuns (freezing attacks).

The DPS of the rogue has to be spectacularly higher than that of the bard to even match real gameplay situations combat time adjusted DPS. Running around waiting for cocoon to tick or casting scrolls is not any good.

I think 2nd pass give us enough DPS for assassins, Shadowdancer's DPS may still not be enough, but that's different issue.
Sev said acrobat will have the DPS level of swashes, not for assasssin. Assassins will have better DPS than acrobats on ideal situation.
If we have much more DPS than current 2nd pass, I think it will bring assassins to over-powered level.

If this 2nd pass won't bring assassins to top-tier melee DPS level(Because I didn't test it yet ), I think we need nerf for other over-powered melee classes, not over-buffing assassins again. We don't need another barb, pally, bard in DDO.

I wish pure assassins have "29% more DPS" than pure barbs on ideal situation(It was on 2011. That's why rogues have 20~40% threat reduction, That's magic number of DPS With this magic number , rogues might sometimes have aggro, but not always, so it make rogue players think about aggro management). But, It may be just my little hope.

[VinoeWhines]

The problem with "I think" and "I believe" is just that...Theory.
Let's not waste pages upon pages of hyperbole. Some have put up images to show their results, even though some explanations of results had to be corrected and expanded upon, the point is there were hard numbers to discuss over. Alot of time wasted of these vapor arguments can be done away with if their are screenshots attached to it, to show the numbers, these alleged over power arguments or complainful outcrys keep emerging,
show us the numbers with screenshots. The devs could do the same, so at least this can enhance the rebuttals of what the players are requesting for in game improvements.

Rogues are a difficult class to play, some enjoy that. There should be a high ground for those who stick around and master the rogue style of play. I don't see where this over powered here say is coming from.

[brzytki]

I'm still a little disappointed by the removal of the old Lethality. It was one of the best enhancements once but it turned out to be bad when epic levels came as it didn't scale. It just feels like we are losing flavor and making assassins more similar to other classes - slap +damage, slap some MP, slap +1 crit multi and go. There isn't much creativity like before with the enahncements.

It didn't work on anything with more than 1000 hit points.

Sev~

If it didn't work well in epics, couldn't you just scale it better? With a small tweaking it would be a great ability. Take my suggestion from this very thread for example: let it be 1k HP limit/100 dmg for heroic as it was but add epic scaling. Like this: "for every epic level you have, add 500 HP to the limit and 100 damage". That way at level 28 we would have a vorpal that works on monsters with 5k HP and does 900 damage if HP is higher.

If it would be hard to code, for example let's say enhancements don't recognise epic levels, you could code it like this:
HP limit=1000+modifier*500
damage=100+modifier*100
modifier=character level-20 ; if 0 or <0 then 1
I'm no programmer or coder but i think it could look similar to this and be easy to implement.

[BigErkyKid]

I'm still a little disappointed by the removal of the old Lethality. It was one of the best enhancements once but it turned out to be bad when epic levels came as it didn't scale. It just feels like we are losing flavor and making assassins more similar to other classes - slap +damage, slap some MP, slap +1 crit multi and go. There isn't much creativity like before with the enahncements.



If it didn't work well in epics, couldn't you just scale it better? With a small tweaking it would be a great ability. Take my suggestion from this very thread for example: let it be 1k HP limit/100 dmg for heroic as it was but add epic scaling. Like this: "for every epic level you have, add 500 HP to the limit and 100 damage". That way at level 28 we would have a vorpal that works on monsters with 5k HP and does 900 damage if HP is higher.

If it would be hard to code, for example let's say enhancements don't recognise epic levels, you could code it like this:
HP limit=1000+modifier*500
damage=100+modifier*100
modifier=character level-20 ; if 0 or <0 then 1
I'm no programmer or coder but i think it could look similar to this and be easy to implement.

Or just have the damage scale with MP. I am talking about the 100 points of damage.

In any case, this is not a crucial discussion, since at the end of the day it is DPS anyway.

I am not that excited about extra multipliers. The fundamental ability of the rogue was sneak attack, then for assassins assassinate.

Sneak attack does not scale well so you are just adding tons of multiplier thingies to keep the damage competitive.

To me, this is "cheating". Make sneak attack interesting again, allow it perhaps on multiple enemies or on cleaves or what not.

Assassinate remains pretty much a trick given the DPS that characters put out and its long cool down.

[draven1]

Or just have the damage scale with MP. I am talking about the 100 points of damage.

In any case, this is not a crucial discussion, since at the end of the day it is DPS anyway.

I am not that excited about extra multipliers. The fundamental ability of the rogue was sneak attack, then for assassins assassinate.

Sneak attack does not scale well so you are just adding tons of multiplier thingies to keep the damage competitive.

To me, this is "cheating". Make sneak attack interesting again, allow it perhaps on multiple enemies or on cleaves or what not.

Assassinate remains pretty much a trick given the DPS that characters put out and its long cool down.

If Shadowdancer have SA crit enhancement, you will love 2nd pass Lethality

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (depending on weapon).
So, how about adding scaling factor for each Shadowdancer Core?

If each Shadowdancer core give 20% more SA scaling factor per core, It would be nice, too.
Base 150% SA scale from melee power, 270% SA scale from Shadowdancer 5.

If this one is over-powered, just 10% per core.
Base 150% SA scale from melee power, 210% SA scale from Shadowdancer 5.

[Bobby88888]

Why exactly is Dex mod being added to Assassinate DC anyway?
It doesn't fit the flavour of the assassin, it is a nightmare from a balance perspective and it does nothing to improve build diversity.
While I sure wouldn't have thought of everything I spent a long time thinking how to add it and I never came up with an idea that would be good, let alone easy to implement. Much better to just stick with Int, Dex is for DPS and defence, Int for Assassinate. Any time spent trying to balance them could probably be better spent redoing the stealth system or getting more done for u26.

I'm still a little disappointed by the removal of the old Lethality. It was one of the best enhancements once but it turned out to be bad when epic levels came as it didn't scale. It just feels like we are losing flavor and making assassins more similar to other classes - slap +damage, slap some MP, slap +1 crit multi and go. There isn't much creativity like before with the enahncements.

Back when I was making my 2nd character a couple of years back I had to make a Wizard, but before I made them I went and looked at the different classes and I almost went Rogue assassin instead just because of lethality. It was just that cool and unique.

But the game has moved on and now lethality is weak, its still good for that last little bit of heroic but that usually lasts me about a day.
I would rather see something like SA damage being able to crit for double damage (or more if you like) but that may require reworking the tree. At least put that in the Shadowdancer pass which needs to happen with u26.
But brzytki's idea is also a good one, keep that cool, unique, flavourful ability and make it scale.
I think 1000 HP to the limit and 100 damage per epic level would be better for 9000 HP and 900 damage at level 28, but would have to see how it would all balance out.
9000 HP goes in a flash in epics with barbs, sorcs, pallys, etc. and with execute an assassin can take that down reasonably fast too.
Back then if it triggered on a full HP mob, most of them it would be an insta kill for, at level 28 sometimes they have to be below 10% HP if it was 9000 HP limit.

I also agree with the sentiment that all this MP and crit multipliers etc are just draining flavour from the class. How about instead of +1 crit multiplier put +1 crit multiplier on SA damage. You do less SA damage than normal damage so that is less damage but more flavour. It would also stack with any Crittable SA damage that might be put into the Shadowdancer ED in the future (Hint Hint :P ). In fact now that I think of making it a +1 bonus to critical multiplier of SA damage I think that is a really great idea. You could either have SA damage crit based on weapon profile, a preset non changing range or set a default and also add SA crit range bonuses to assassin and Shadowdancer as well as multipliers. Say default: 19-20 x2 for everyone of any class. Lethality: +1 multiplier for SA damage. Knife Spec: +1 range and +1 multi for SA damage. More in Shadowdancer revamp.
Make Sneak Attack damage the primary damage for Rogues, or at least Assassins, sure still need to do at least mediocre 1st number damage for when you aren't getting SA damage but that would be just so cool .
*While I am on the topic, I have vaguely been following the helplessness and SA discussion, I am not sure if it wasn't increasing SA damage or if the bonus SA damage was being applied to your 1st number damage rather than your SA damage number. But either way if its not working please make it so it does and if it is please make it so it increases the SA damage number.
EDIT - Maybe set the base SA crits at 19-20 x1, put a +1 multi in acro and mech and the above +2 multi and 1 range in assassin, placement to make mutually exclusive or very resource intensive to get from 2 trees (read tier 5/core 18+)

Rather than throwing MP at the tree so much how about more SA dice instead, though some of it should remain and I think MP from MtF is a better way to go than adding SA dice to it.
Take the Sneak Attack Training enhancement line for instance, most places you pay 1 AP for 1 SA die, or even less. So why does the Assassin, the master of SA have to pay double? Drop the price to 1 AP each. Since Assassins are the absolute master of Sneak Attack damage and the fact that sometimes 1 SA die costs less than 1 AP it is fine to leave the +1 to hit on there too, though it doesn't really do anything.
In terms of adding more SA dice putting +1/core or instead of dropping Sneak Attack Training cost to 1 AP put 2 SA dice on them.

Assassinate is another avenue for adding to assassins power without just buffing up 1st number DPS, be it being able to assassinate orange nameds in EH/EE (the most annoying mechanic in the game, even more so than the lag mechan.... oh wait :P ) P.S. the reduced cooldown is really appreciated.

A note on sneak speed while I am posting. currently on live I am finding myself a LONG way behind the others when I sneak, the increased sneak speed with the patch should help with that a bit but given just how far behind I am falling I still question if it will be enough.

Rather than just piling on MP and crit multipliers and dex to assassinate DC please add flavourful abilities to the assassin. I can live with these being a bit weaker if it means being in flavour, though you could easily make assassins powerful and in flavour, which I strongly encourage


P.S. Please don't forget to add a timer to MtF buff, its a pain not knowing how long is left on it.

[Qhualor]

Why exactly is Dex mod being added to Assassinate DC anyway?
It doesn't fit the flavour of the assassin, it is a nightmare from a balance perspective and it does nothing to improve build diversity.
While I sure wouldn't have thought of everything I spent a long time thinking how to add it and I never came up with an idea that would be good, let alone easy to implement. Much better to just stick with Int, Dex is for DPS and defence, Int for Assassinate. Any time spent trying to balance them could probably be better spent redoing the stealth system or getting more done for u26.

I think using dex for assassinate was to give players another viable build option for those that wanted to play finesse. I do agree though that it doesn't make sense and doesn't fit the flavor of an assassin. might as well do the same thing for everything else by having descriptions say "whatever main stat is used for damage".

[depositbox]

Dex makes perfect sense for assassins flavor-wise. They have reached a level of dexterity that they can move and strike at unparalleled speed and precision. How does having insane reflexes not translate to being able to strike vital organs/openings? Int doesnt make sense.

[slarden]

Why exactly is Dex mod being added to Assassinate DC anyway?

It is the way the game evolved the last few years. In 3.5 D&D lore assassinate was always based on int and "to hit" was based off dex so both were important. Alot of would-be assassins gave up on the assassinate ability because they couldn't get the dc and opted for pure dps/defenses by going full-dex and dumping the assassinate ability. Then along came harper tree and assassins could now use int for attack and damage like dex builds, but also had assassinate. It's only natural for dex builds to ask for dex assassinate.

The problem is not the change. Dex is better overall and most will switch and ultimately be happy they are better. The problem is that since int and dex are not balanced, dex builds can simply slot assassinate and they are done.

For int builds that made all raid 20th selections and grinding based on "int" now have the wrong gear and wrong stat since dex is better. So the process to migrate to dex assassin requires an etr at a minimum and possibly some re-gearing. In some cases it will take a heroic tr to get the most out of the dex assassin. For example if I knew what I know now when taking my 20th completion reward for temple of the deathwyrm I would have taken dumathoin's bracers instead of 10 phlogs, but I was happy with epic ethereal bracers so I opted for 10 phlogs. Now to get those bracers I need 20 more runs which I likely won't bother with.

If Turbine provided some balancing, dex and int builds would not need to respec, but unfortunately there wasn't agreement by assassins on what would be needed for balancing so the devs just said screw it we'll let dex be the better build and start our explanation with "according to our tests"

[Bobby88888]

Just because you can do a somersault, handstand, triple backflip or completely avoid a fireball that lands at your feet doesn't mean you know where to strike someone to insta kill someone/thing or where the chinks in their armour are that line up with those weakspots.

I agree that it should still be dex to hit and damage, the whole Harper tree was a bad idea/move but there is no way that is going away I think.

Assassinate used to be:
Dex check to sneak up on them. (hide/ms)
Dex check to hit them. (attack roll)
Int check to see if you knew the right spot to strike. (Assassinate)

Sure in real life the Int check would come 2nd not 3rd but thats the way it has to go to work.

Currently on live:
Dex check to sneak up on them. (hide/ms)
Dex or Int check to hit them. (Attack roll).
Int check to see if you knew the right spot to strike. (assassinate)

For 2nd most ppl are using Int.

If Dex to assassinate DC goes live:
Dex check to sneak up on them. (hide/ms)
Dex or Int check to hit them. (Attack roll)
Dex or Int check to see if you knew the right spot to strike. (Assassinate)

And almost everyone other than flavour builds or ppl who didn't know any better will be using dex for 2nd and 3rd.

How does being dexterous let you know where to strike?
@depositbox - Personally I can't see how having insane reflexes translates to being able to strike vital organs/openings, since you need the know how to know where they are, otherwise we might as well give a fighter assassinate with dex DC since they know where someone's heart, etc. are and if they have just as good a dex as an assassin then they could also have the reflexes to hit them through that fullplate armour.
But I hardly expect everyone to have the same opinion as myself.

I could make a semblance of an argument for Int to Hit but really I think except for very rare circumstances such as a weapon every so often attack should be only Str or Dex but that ship has long since sailed.
Other damage stats I can see plenty of arguments for but still probably shouldn't be the norm.

As for giving players another viable option, it hasn't done that, though it has made dex THE viable option.
Why the main stat change? The Barb pass didn't include Wisdom mod to damage when raging, the pally pass didn't let you add your Int mod in d4s as light dmg, etc.

The thing about harper is that you have to sink a lot of AP into it for those benefits and loose some nice things in Acro, mech and racial trees as a result, if it was just Int to hit and damage in harper tree I would possibly consider dumping it but there is a lot more there, some of which is most helpful to an assassin so that is where my AP are.


And that is my point Slarden. IF they balanced Dex and Int it would go okay, it makes no sense to me and doesn't fit the flavour but to others it will make sense, and if it opens up build variety without cutting things off then that is fine. But really it isn't balanced, it doesn't change build variety. All it does is completely change the main stat of the Assassin for absolutely no reason. I personally couldn't come up with a quick, easy or good solution to the balancing but that isn't to say 1 doesn't exist but at this point it looks like it would almost be " cancel update 26, we are balancing Int and Dex based assassins instead!" Okay maybe a bit of an exaggeration but still.

If they had made it so a Barb could use wisdom for to hit and damage, rage added to wisdom as well as str, etc would barb players have been happy? I would imagine not overly. Unless all you care about is meta gaming. Assuming they could get just as high a wis as str still. Would it have been a power bump? sure +30 will save!!. But they would've needed to farm out all their gear again, change their build and last but not least loose any flavour. Not the best example but I hope you get my meaning there.

Unless they balance Dex and Int imo it is a waste of development time, and as far as I can see balancing them would take so long that it would be a waste of development time, feel free to prove me wrong but that is the way I see it.


Sigh. One of these days one of these posts won't just keep growing till it fills up a whole page.

[Saekee]

There are so many more imaginative possibilities for the assassin level 18 core than simply boosting straight dps, things that would be more in line with assassin lore. Just off the top of my head:
1) your finesse weapons gain Improved deception (like tier5 harper)
2) your finesse weapons blind opponents for 2 seconds on vorpal and reset the assassinate timer
3) your finesse weapons proc a sap effect on vorpal hits and reset the assassinate timer
4) sneak attacksdebuff all enemy saves; critical hits while sneak attacking remove 1 pt from all enemy stats
5) critical hits while sneak attacking enemies with an assassin's mark will proc an execute (as per tier 4)
6) etc etc

[slarden]

And that is my point Slarden. IF they balanced Dex and Int it would go okay, it makes no sense to me and doesn't fit the flavour but to others it will make sense, and if it opens up build variety without cutting things off then that is fine. But really it isn't balanced, it doesn't change build variety. All it does is completely change the main stat of the Assassin for absolutely no reason. I personally couldn't come up with a quick, easy or good solution to the balancing but that isn't to say 1 doesn't exist but at this point it looks like it would almost be " cancel update 26, we are balancing Int and Dex based assassins instead!" Okay maybe a bit of an exaggeration but still.

The problem is we didn't make it easy for them to do that.

I suggested the extra feat (not needing insightful reflexes) and 4AP was the balance issue. Other people said it didn't matter. Some said defensive roll was the balance issue and others said that was no big deal. Some said dodge was the balance issue and others said it was a small difference. While most of the people playing int assassin agree dex will be better and plan to switch,they couldn't agree on the reasons why dex is better. Then throw in all the people playing dex builds saying no balancing was needed because they wanted it to be easy for turbine to add dex to assassinate so Turbine wouldn't abandon the idea.

Oh well, it's just a game.

[Bobby88888]

The problem is we didn't make it easy for them to do that.

I suggested the extra feat (not needing insightful reflexes) and 4AP was the balance issue. Other people said it didn't matter. Some said defensive roll was the balance issue and others said that was no big deal. Some said dodge was the balance issue and others said it was a small difference. While most of the people playing int assassin agree dex will be better and plan to switch,they couldn't agree on the reasons why dex is better. Then throw in all the people playing dex builds saying no balancing was needed because they wanted it to be easy for turbine to add dex to assassinate so Turbine wouldn't abandon the idea.

Oh well, it's just a game.

While we didn't agree it shouldn't be to hard for them to analyse it and see, thing is they shouldn't be equal in every area, Int should excel in 1 or 2 areas and Dex should excel in a different 1 or 2 areas with 1 or 2 areas where they come out the same. Which makes balancing them a bigger thing to do.

Oh look! I finally made that short post

[slarden]

There are so many more imaginative possibilities for the assassin level 18 core than simply boosting straight dps, things that would be more in line with assassin lore. Just off the top of my head:
1) your finesse weapons gain Improved deception (like tier5 harper)
2) your finesse weapons blind opponents for 2 seconds on vorpal and reset the assassinate timer
3) your finesse weapons proc a sap effect on vorpal hits and reset the assassinate timer
4) sneak attacksdebuff all enemy saves; critical hits while sneak attacking remove 1 pt from all enemy stats
5) critical hits while sneak attacking enemies with an assassin's mark will proc an execute (as per tier 4)
6) etc etc

What's wrong with dps? It's much simpler and lines up nicely with the feedback before and after U25 was released.

[Myrddinman]

Okay, I'm going to go way out on a limb here...

What if the Assassinate DC was 1/2 DEX + 1/2 INT? Thematically, you'd need DEX for positioning and INT for knowing where to strike.

[Saekee]

What's wrong with dps? It's much simpler and lines up nicely with the feedback before and after U25 was released.

DPS comes in many forms. My suggestions are about other ways of improving rogue survivability and offense within the level 18 core instead of simply adding a crit multiplier.

If anything, I would include the new crit multiplier to knife spec tier 5 (buff it even more) whereas right now it is the same as swashing with less options (only two weapon types).

[depositbox]

Okay, I'm going to go way out on a limb here...

What if the Assassinate DC was 1/2 DEX + 1/2 INT? Thematically, you'd need DEX for positioning and INT for knowing where to strike.

thematically, i agree. But the int par isnt the biggest obstacle in application. learning where to strike can be learned and trained. Having the reflexes to do so is another thing. take most pro fighters. They arent scientist or engineers but their trained muscle memory bypasses the brain after enough training. Like the pull back from a flame we do when we touch it and the burn feeling kicks in after we pull away. that is because it bypasses the brain for survival or you would burn away tissue.

But, i could see how a high int in a fantasy game would make sense(we arent trying to be as realistic as possible in DnD). The int part would allow for the assassin brain to process information much faster than just learned muscle memory and what normal humans can(if high enough int, think deep blue vs kasparov, kinda).