Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Hafeal]

No offense intended but we have no plans to introduce our testing docs to the players nor start the process of vetting our testing processes through the live forums. Players are more than welcome to share their own results and, as I hope players can see by these forums, if there was some off build we missed we try our best to respond to player feedback and information.

Sev~

None taken, this has been the same refrain for 9 years from every dev team. That being said, a lack of details and openness is what sows dissent and mistrust - which is why the forums can be so rough and tumble at times. There have been repeated missteps by the dev team since the game opened in beta of the devs missing details or ignoring well known feedback. Perhaps the error lies somewhere in the testing or lack thereof?

I am all for trade secrets being secret. As long as you and the dev team continue the pattern of open communication, I think it helps build some faith and trust that you are open to the live experiences players go through in the game play.

As players, we need to also do a better job of realizing the devs cannot make all the players happy all the time and sometimes the path or choice you wish for is not the choice made.

[Delacroix21]

It kinda got buried under a few posts=

Sev, can you look into helplessness not increasing sneak attack damage? It used too, but doesn't anymore.

[Grace_ana]

You can see the net effect on my build a few posts down responding to ironclam

Gain 1 feat (not needing insightful reflexes)
Free up 6 action points
No mercy
Haste Boost
+11 bonus to dodge vs +10 bonus to int
+1 assassinate dc depending on whether HH necklace if worn
+2 burst assassinate dc from tenser's scroll for tough content
- 6 damage from KTA
- 1 Melee Power
+1 higher damage due to dex being higher than int (+2 if I wore the HH necklace)
Better
- Ability to pass through enemies when tumbling
- Immunity to knockdown and slippery surfaces
- Higher dodge
- Higher AC
I lose a few skills I wasn't using
My int-based trap skills remain no fail
My dex-based trap skill remain no fail

As an int build I had no room for haste boost due to AP requirements in harper tree.

Most of these things are a wash. I don't know about you, but I'm dodge capped, and 1% wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. AC is still probably too low to be worthwhile. Skills functionally stay the same. I run hasted all the time anyway. Immunities are easy with gear. You already probably could pass through enemies if you wanted to.

The only very serious differences are the assassinate DC because of tensers/yugo pots/gear, the feat, and damage, and those things are absolutely a big deal. I would really like the devs to consider the following, though my recommendations should in no way be considered endorsement for dex based assassinate:

1. I definitely do not think that dex assassins should be able to attain a higher DC than int assassins due to spells and gear. Availability of each is a serious concern and something that should be addressed BEFORE this goes live.

2. I don't think the consideration of KTA as a balancer, as described by Sev, is on solid ground. There is nothing stopping a dex build from taking KTA either. Even a dex rogue will have a high int. The difference is that the dex based rogue can now put those extra couple points into melee power in the harper tree. Take a look at the changes in whole - how many now scale with melee power? This becomes a serious DPS imbalance. KTA vs. dex isn't an either or.

3. The extra feat is a big deal. Most rogues now take insightful reflexes. The change allows dex rogues to free up an extra feat for all kinds of power boosting options. There's no equivalent alternative for int rogues.

I'd really like Sev to comment on these things specifically and consider them with the team. If they were considered, I'd like to hear the explanation for how this is still seen as balanced between the two.

[CThruTheEgo]

Our testing includes both raw DPS tests and end game fully geared out builds in both sustained DPS tests and the "Bruntsmash" test for real world burst conditions, even though that test has a number of issues and is highly biased. Assassin is and was in great shape in heroic tests, but fell behind at end game in burst and sustained DPS. That's why you see the larger buff added at the tail end of heroic. No offense intended but we have no plans to introduce our testing docs to the players nor start the process of vetting our testing processes through the live forums. Players are more than welcome to share their own results and, as I hope players can see by these forums, if there was some off build we missed we try our best to respond to player feedback and information.

Sev~

Thanks for the info Sev. Given the rage and drama that occurs on these forums, I can understand not wanting to share the details. I'm certainly not asking for you all to have your testing procedures approved by us. But all testing, of any kind and in any field, has its limitations. It's impossible to know what those limitations are without any info regarding the specific testing conditions and procedures. If you all just said, "here is the build we used, here is what we did with it, we aren't interested in feedback on the build or test, here are the results we got, if you don't like what we did then go do it yourself using your own conditions," then we would at least know what the limitations are of that test and have a valid point of comparison for our own test to see how various changes affect the results. Currently, if there is a discrepancy between our results and yours, there is no way for us to know what that discrepancy is or where it's coming from. And that simply makes the argument that something won't be changed/added because your internal tests do not show a need, an argument that we are not inclined to accept at face value. It's just a matter of transparency to facilitate the dialogue, that's all. Thank you for the reply Sev. Your communication with us is greatly appreciated.

[davmuzl]

lol What exactly is your Int build losing that's forcing you to respec? Where is your DPS, survivability, etc decreasing? The build you're currently playing is presumably in a good place, correct? So the only reason you "have" change it is because you could have a little more if you do, right? Int builds aren't losing any amount of viability here, they'll be just as viable post patch as they are pre-patch, right? But you're being "forced" to change... Lol

The build is losing its status as the best Assassin build. In that context it's pretty much the same as if putting lvl ups into int didn't increase the DC.

[slarden]

Most of these things are a wash. I don't know about you, but I'm dodge capped, and 1% wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. AC is still probably too low to be worthwhile. Skills functionally stay the same. I run hasted all the time anyway. Immunities are easy with gear. You already probably could pass through enemies if you wanted to.

The only very serious differences are the assassinate DC because of tensers/yugo pots/gear, the feat, and damage, and those things are absolutely a big deal. I would really like the devs to consider the following, though my recommendations should in no way be considered endorsement for dex based assassinate:

1. I definitely do not think that dex assassins should be able to attain a higher DC than int assassins due to spells and gear. Availability of each is a serious concern and something that should be addressed BEFORE this goes live.

2. I don't think the consideration of KTA as a balancer, as described by Sev, is on solid ground. There is nothing stopping a dex build from taking KTA either. Even a dex rogue will have a high int. The difference is that the dex based rogue can now put those extra couple points into melee power in the harper tree. Take a look at the changes in whole - how many now scale with melee power? This becomes a serious DPS imbalance. KTA vs. dex isn't an either or.

3. The extra feat is a big deal. Most rogues now take insightful reflexes. The change allows dex rogues to free up an extra feat for all kinds of power boosting options. There's no equivalent alternative for int rogues.

I'd really like Sev to comment on these things specifically and consider them with the team. If they were considered, I'd like to hear the explanation for how this is still seen as balanced between the two.

To me everything is a wash and debatable except the 1 feat benefit and 4 AP benefit (since int to hit and damage isn't in the assassin tree). The rest I can live with - even if dex builds are better.

All this has been known and mentioned since the topic was first raised several weeks go.

For me, I just have no desire to respec because of this change and I don't want to play my rogue as an int-build when dex is so much better. I will probably just bow out of this conversation shortly and take a break from the game until U26 or maybe U27. The last thing I want to do is respec now and then tr to warlock and then tr back to rogue.

[Hafeal]

But first and immediate thoughts are generally based on intuition and not objectivity.

Seeing as to how these changes have developed and been modified, I think my intuition was correct. Dex will be the way going forward for a vast majority if assassins.

[depositbox]

You can see the net effect on my build a few posts down responding to ironclam

Gain 1 feat (not needing insightful reflexes)
Free up 6 action points
No mercy
Haste Boost
+11 bonus to dex vs +10 bonus to int
+1 assassinate dc (+2 if HH necklace if worn)
+2 additional burst assassinate dc from tenser's scroll for tough content
- 6 damage from KTA
- 1 Melee Power
+1 higher damage due to dex being higher than int (+2 if I wore the HH necklace)
Better
Ability to pass through enemies when tumbling
Immunity to knockdown and slippery surfaces
Higher dodge
Higher AC
I lose a few skills I wasn't using
I lose the ability to twist in daunting roar for cc:
My int-based trap skills remain no fail
My dex-based trap skill remain no fail

As an int build I had no room for haste boost due to AP requirements in harper tree. Int builds could have a tiny bit of extra damage to bosses from +6 kta and +1 melee power and down +1-2 damage from ability modifier. You are talking about a very small benefit for only one part of the game - red named boss fights. That is really the easier part of the game.

I disagree. Mobs can be invised or just killed. red named dps is the main thing in ddo currently. For me, anyway.

I have never tumbled through mobs. Not really needed in this game.

Why couldnt you twist haste boost from LD if you didnt have enough AP? And what are the AP sinks that there wasnt enough to get rogue haste boost for 8 ap?

Where do you free up 6ap from now?

Youre not really freeing up a feat as now you have to take defensive roll over one of your other rogue feats. So you just end up swapping out imp evasion, slippery mind or opportunist for whatever.

Is dodge really that much higher on dex build? I mean, getting MDB increases from gear seems weak when youre at steady high 20's anyway. Capping at 32 instead of 27? Meh.

AC is non factor for rogue dex or int builds. To me at least. I havent had AC since my QP monks. BTW, fix it Sev. OMG pls give us back QP.

[Humperdink]

It kinda got buried under a few posts=

Sev, can you look into helplessness not increasing sneak attack damage? It used too, but doesn't anymore.

Sneak attack was never increased by the helpless condition. A dev even confirms it here when they switched from auto crits to +50% damage in 2011:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post3710232

[Dreppo]

Rogue

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (depending on weapon). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.

For clarification, is it exclusively rogues who get the 150% scaling, or anyone who deals sneak attack damage (via halfling, deepwood, ninja spy, items, etc.)?

[Grace_ana]

I disagree. Mobs can be invised or just killed. red named dps is the main thing in ddo currently. For me, anyway.

For which extra melee power would be good, no? And you can get that by not putting points in int to dmg.

I have never tumbled through mobs. Not really needed in this game.

Me either, but different playstyles are different playstyles.

Why couldnt you twist haste boost from LD if you didnt have enough AP? And what are the AP sinks that there wasnt enough to get rogue haste boost for 8 ap?

Where do you free up 6ap from now?

Twisting haste boost means losing fort bypass, reflex saves, self healing, etc. Things that are necessary for a rogue. And the impression I get is that he DOESN'T have the 6 ap now.

Youre not really freeing up a feat as now you have to take defensive roll over one of your other rogue feats. So you just end up swapping out imp evasion, slippery mind or opportunist for whatever.

This is incorrect. Insightful reflexes isn't a rogue feat; it's a regular feat. So you would then be able to take any other available feat to boost your power.

Is dodge really that much higher on dex build? I mean, getting MDB increases from gear seems weak when youre at steady high 20's anyway. Capping at 32 instead of 27? Meh.

5 dodge is actually quite a lot at end game in particular.

AC is non factor for rogue dex or int builds. To me at least. I havent had AC since my QP monks. BTW, fix it Sev. OMG pls give us back QP.

I do agree that AC isn't a factor here.

[dark270]

i support the changes to a dex/int rather then int only. its about time, thanks sev

Our testing includes both raw DPS tests and end game fully geared out builds in both sustained DPS tests and the "Bruntsmash" test for real world burst conditions, even though that test has a number of issues and is highly biased. Assassin is and was in great shape in heroic tests, but fell behind at end game in burst and sustained DPS. That's why you see the larger buff added at the tail end of heroic. No offense intended but we have no plans to introduce our testing docs to the players nor start the process of vetting our testing processes through the live forums. Players are more than welcome to share their own results and, as I hope players can see by these forums, if there was some off build we missed we try our best to respond to player feedback and information.

Sev~

[slarden]

I disagree. Mobs can be invised or just killed. red named dps is the main thing in ddo currently. For me, anyway.

You can't invis through all mobs. Mob fights are much more difficult than boss fights in higher level EE content imo. The difference in damage against red names is net 5-6 damage per hit. That is fairly minor considering the extra feat gained etc.

I have never tumbled through mobs. Not really needed in this game.

It's a plus for dex builds but not a huge plus

Why couldnt you twist haste boost from LD if you didnt have enough AP? And what are the AP sinks that there wasnt enough to get rogue haste boost for 8 ap?

I can twist it in but then I can't twist in something else. My current AP mix on an int build is:

racial: 6 (basically for 2 int)
assassin: 41
Harper: 25
Acrobat: 8

With Acrobat I am taking subtlety in tier 2 for the threat reduction. AP are very tight in an assassin build. Haste boost is only 3 since I will be taking subtlety anyhow.

Where do you free up 6ap from now?

2 from strategic combat I in the harper tree (dex to hit is auto granted in assassin tree)
2 from strategic combat II in the harper tree (dex to damage is auto granted in the assassin tree)
2 from racial tree since I get 3 dex from shadow dodge I no longer need to waste 2 AP in the racial tree for 2 int.

Youre not really freeing up a feat as now you have to take defensive roll over one of your other rogue feats. So you just end up wapping out imp evasion, slippery mind or opportunist for whatever.

As an int based assassin I take insightful reflexes to use int as my reflex save rather than dex. As a dex build there is no feat requirement to use my main stat as my reflex save stat

Is dodge really that much higher on dex build? I mean, getting MDB increases from gear seems weak when youre at steady high 20's anyway. Capping at 32 instead of 27? Meh.

I agree this is minor, but not as minor as the extra skill points an int build gets

AC is non factor for rogue dex or int builds. To me at least. I havent had AC since my QP monks. BTW, fix it Sev. OMG pls give us back QP.

I see quite a few misses with an AC of 117 even in EE. My AC would raise to 130, but yeah AC benefit is hard to quantify and varies from quest to quest.

Again, to me the need for insightful reflexes and strategic combat I and II are too much of a cost to consder int over dex. The others things aren't as big of a deal to me. No Mercy is really really good, but again without the AP and feat tax, I can live with the other differences which I think benefit dex builds overall, but at least it's debatable at that point.

[depositbox]

Me either, but different playstyles are different playstyles.

agreed. that is what makes ddo so fun

Twisting haste boost means losing fort bypass, reflex saves, self healing, etc. Things that are necessary for a rogue. And the impression I get is that he DOESN'T have the 6 ap now.

depends on fate points and twist slots, but i would think 3/3/1 is fine for fort bypass, haste and coccon..

This is incorrect. Insightful reflexes isn't a rogue feat; it's a regular feat. So you would then be able to take any other available feat to boost your power.
right, i said it was swapping out a rouge feat for another rogue one, so you do lose something. that something is imp eva, opportunist, or slippery mind. the swapping of ins ref for weapon focus, i guess. seems like a wash


5 dodge is actually quite a lot at end game in particular.
negligible when displaced as long as it's mid to high 20s

I do agree that AC isn't a factor here.

Answers in red because this forum is hard, yo.

[depositbox]

I see quite a few misses with an AC of 117 even in EE. My AC would raise to 130, but yeah AC benefit is hard to quantify and varies from quest to quest.
.

That AC value is actually somewhat useful.

[slarden]

Answers in red because this forum is hard, yo.

Insightful reflexes is not a rogue feat. In my case swapping it out gives me a level 27 epic feat or heroic feat to choose from.

Sense weakness, damage boost and balanced attacks are all things I want twisted in. As a dex build I don't need to worry about twisting in haste since I can get it in the acrobat tree. I was not able to fit haste boost into my int build. The extra 6 AP helps alot.

[Grace_ana]

Answers in red because this forum is hard, yo.

Apparently they are, because you still didn't understand. Insightful reflexes isn't a rogue feat. It's a regular feat. You wouldn't swap it for a rogue feat. You would swap it for a regular feat. I don't know how else to explain that more clearly. No rogue feats were harmed in the making of this theorybuild. However, instead of insightful reflexes you could take:
more dodge (3 feats offer this), power attack if you want to take imp sunder or cleave, resilience for the extra saves, etc. That's at just the heroic levels. If you shift stuff you can get another epic feat, depending on your build.

Dodge is never negligible. More dodge means less getting hit. It's not on a bell curve like AC or PRR. For squishy rogues, every little effective bit matters.

[Delacroix21]

Sneak attack was never increased by the helpless condition. A dev even confirms it here when they switched from auto crits to +50% damage in 2011:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post3710232

The Dev post even states 'I spent a few minutes this morning discussing this situation with some folks on the development team. There is a belief that rogues are currently in a decently balanced spot and adjustments will be made if that proves not to be correct. So, the current approach on this is going to be to monitor the situation. You are very unlikely to see any change before Update 9 goes Live.

Flame away, but that is where the development team currently stands."


So clearly changes could be made as the Devs are currently in agreement that rogue/sneak attack dps are under performing. Its not a big change, as none of the rogue trees offer a helpless attack, it would just be nice.

[depositbox]

Insightful reflexes is not a rogue feat. In my case swapping it out gives me a level 27 epic feat or heroic feat to choose from.

Sense weakness, damage boost and balanced attacks are all things I want twisted in. As a dex build I don't need to worry about twisting in haste since I can get it in the acrobat tree. I was not able to fit haste boost into my int build. The extra 6 AP helps alot.

i am not getting my point across properly. Sorry about that guys. What im trying to say is rogues get 4 feats. your 4 are now:
def roll.
opportunist.
slippery mind.
imp eva.

I guess those stay the same and would also be the feats on an int build or dex anyway. no one is really taking crippling strikes or skills.

The haste boost would be swapping around threat reduction for haste. Dont really want to drop points from harper for int builds. So, yeah. i can see the gains now better. thanks for that.

The way I view it is losing 6 damage from kta(comes out to -4 after dex bonuses), _1 melee power from harper(not really replaceable), and gaining some AC, improved defensive roll(nice), more dodge(not bad), and +2-4 dc(actually significant). but i see the gripe now clearly. the int build really has nothing going for it over dex. Are there any int based abilities im overlooking here?

[Bolo_Grubb]

A couple of end game items that aren't too hard to get:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Ethereal_Bracers
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Mentau%27s_Goggles
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Necklac...ystic_Eidolons (upgraded has insightful dex and con +4)

Yup already have the Epic Ethereal Bracers, so just need to figure out how to fit in the Insightful Dex somewhere. Anywhere I put, I am giving up something else. I do like the idea of the Mystic Eidolons, but i would have to give up my http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Shroud_of_Ardent which may be doable.

Other then that, no real change to gear. Playing around with enhancements is interesting. Could easily spend all the points in just two trees, Assassin and Thief Acrobat and be pretty happy. How much of a over difference in DPS percentage wise, hard to say. Definitely an improvement in DPS, maybe small enough (single digits % wise? maybe more?) to not make some switch from Int based for the DPS. The improvement to defense as well though make it much more attractive.

I do think the changes are such that if you are happy with your current Int based assassin, you do not need to change. As things are now, I will probably change to a dex based.

The other thing this change does is reinforce the idea we need more storage, because you should never sell or get rid of item that you might need when they make a change like this. I know I use to have a black dragon helm with Insightful dex and Treads of falling snow with insightful dex, but I sold them because I did not need them. Oh well