Rogue - Assassin Changes

[CThruTheEgo]

Acrobat without Lethality in our tests can hit Swashbuckler DPS levels. They were a little low before we added the extra Doublestrike. These are solo tests. They will be even better in groups with higher Sneak Attack uptime.

Sev~

As I said in the other thread, the lack of info regarding these tests and the specific builds used, forces us to call into question the validity of them both. We have nothing else to go on other than simple blind faith that you all are creating builds in a way that we would actually create them on live and testing them in conditions which are realistic in actual gameplay. I've always been critical of blind faith. Can we get some details please? What specific builds are you using? Classes and level splits? Feats? Enhancements? Destiny info including twists? Gear? Buffs? What are the conditions of the tests? What mobs are you fighting? How many mobs? Is it in an actual quest or just a fake environment that you use? Without this kind info, we really have no reason to agree with the claims you make as a result of these tests, especially if/when those claims don't match what we see on live or in our theory crafting.

I recall you said a few weeks ago that assassin was not that far behind in the dps tests, but then you introduced these massive changes which boosted dps. I'm not trying to be rude here Sev. I'm just not one to take someone's word for it and prefer to evaluate for myself. I know others have made similar requests regarding the internal dps tests you all do, yet the secrecy remains and I don't really understand why.

[ToastyFred]

Lethality will be changed to only work with one handed weapons.

Sev~

This will hurt my Mechanic Great X-Bow user but I agree with the change.

Well done.



Please make Assassinate based off INT only.

[Delacroix21]

I made a BF acrobat with high double strike, glancing proc chance, and mortal fear and honestly was not impressed with the dps, I think the 20% double strike and 150% power to sneak attack is spot on.

Double Strike:
5 PTWF
9 PL Stance
8 Epic Quiver
5 acrobat core
25 quick strike- 52%

Glancing proc chance:
9 THF feats
10 PTHF
9 FoW twist
12 acrobat
6 BF - 46%



Severlin, can you please look into sneak attack damage not increasing on helpless mobs? It used to, but from my tests it no longer does, which is a big hurt to sneak attack.

[CThruTheEgo]

Severlin, can you please look into sneak attack damage not increasing on helpless mobs? It used to, but from my tests it no longer does, which is a big hurt to sneak attack.

I've not noticed this but also haven't looked for it. If that's true, it's bad and very counterintuitive.

[davmuzl]

Severlin, can you please look into sneak attack damage not increasing on helpless mobs? It used to, but from my tests it no longer does, which is a big hurt to sneak attack.

I can't recall it ever getting higher against helpless mobs. It also doesn't make sense. The point of the extra dmg against helpless is that you are hitting vulnerable spots and you are already doing that with sneak attacks.

[brzytki]

Severlin, can you please look into sneak attack damage not increasing on helpless mobs? It used to, but from my tests it no longer does, which is a big hurt to sneak attack.

I haven't noticed the lack of increased damage from SA on helpless mobs but i haven't looked for it. Gonna check when i log in.

I can't recall it ever getting higher against helpless mobs. It also doesn't make sense. The point of the extra dmg against helpless is that you are hitting vulnerable spots and you are already doing that with sneak attacks.

It always did. It's just the extra damage from SA on helpless mobs is added to the first floaty number (base), so it is hard to notice if you don't know where to look for it.

[davmuzl]

Acrobat without Lethality in our tests can hit Swashbuckler DPS levels. They were a little low before we added the extra Doublestrike. These are solo tests. They will be even better in groups with higher Sneak Attack uptime.

Sev~

What exactly is Swashbuckler DPS level? And why is it called that? Is DPS balanced around that since they got introduced? Not that it would be a bad thing but it would be nice to know so everyone is on the same page.

[Severlin]

As I said in the other thread, the lack of info regarding these tests and the specific builds used, forces us to call into question the validity of them both. We have nothing else to go on other than simple blind faith that you all are creating builds in a way that we would actually create them on live and testing them in conditions which are realistic in actual gameplay. I've always been critical of blind faith. Can we get some details please? What specific builds are you using? Classes and level splits? Feats? Enhancements? Destiny info including twists? Gear? Buffs? What are the conditions of the tests? What mobs are you fighting? How many mobs? Is it in an actual quest or just a fake environment that you use? Without this kind info, we really have no reason to agree with the claims you make as a result of these tests, especially if/when those claims don't match what we see on live or in our theory crafting.

I recall you said a few weeks ago that assassin was not that far behind in the dps tests, but then you introduced these massive changes which boosted dps. I'm not trying to be rude here Sev. I'm just not one to take someone's word for it and prefer to evaluate for myself. I know others have made similar requests regarding the internal dps tests you all do, yet the secrecy remains and I don't really understand why.

Our testing includes both raw DPS tests and end game fully geared out builds in both sustained DPS tests and the "Bruntsmash" test for real world burst conditions, even though that test has a number of issues and is highly biased. Assassin is and was in great shape in heroic tests, but fell behind at end game in burst and sustained DPS. That's why you see the larger buff added at the tail end of heroic. No offense intended but we have no plans to introduce our testing docs to the players nor start the process of vetting our testing processes through the live forums. Players are more than welcome to share their own results and, as I hope players can see by these forums, if there was some off build we missed we try our best to respond to player feedback and information.

Sev~

[Grace_ana]

Changing the assassinate DC is a bad idea all around. I was against it from the beginning. I don't think the world will explode or that every single rogue will move to dex based, but I think it will be enough that it harms variety in playstyles and builds. I also don't think it fits with assassins thematically. I believe that a lot of solid reasons have already been given as to how and why this unbalances rogues completely. CThru in particular broke it down well and without hysteria, which I appreciated.

Skills are besides the point - you can certainly be dex based and take enough int to max anything you can possibly want. Start at 14 and you can max all the trap skills, hide, MS, and at least some of bluff/diplo/jump/concentration for whatever your particular needs are. On my int based assassin, I get to the point where I'm tossing points into listen, swim, and haggle just because I have to spend them somewhere. Skills simply aren't a reason to go int based.

Search and disable - as an int based rogue I can get my skills ridiculously high with literally no effort whatsoever. If I were dex based it wouldn't be enough of a difference to matter. I can currently exceed the toughest trap in the game by several points. If I were dex based, I could just toss a couple buffs and do just as well.

DPS - yes, KTA is a big boost. I get something like 13 or so out of it, and it's base pre-multipliers, etc. But you can get just as much of a boost out of other things with dex for less of an AP investment.

I agree that dex-based assassins should be viable, but perhaps there are other ways to do that. Perhaps the assassinate DC stays the same, but one of the cores gives rogues additional SA dice based on their dex. Then you have a trade off - more SA dice vs reliable assassinate. Not a huge amount of SA dice, mind you - enough to even the playing field a bit. Or perhaps others can come up with what I am sure would be a better idea than that. But changing the assassinate DC throws the assassin world kind of off its kilter in a bad way.

P.S. Still not addressing the self-heal issue? Come on, you guys.

[slarden]

Our testing includes both raw DPS tests and end game fully geared out builds in both sustained DPS tests and the "Bruntsmash" test for real world burst conditions, even though that test has a number of issues and is highly biased. Assassin is and was in great shape in heroic tests, but fell behind at end game in burst and sustained DPS. That's why you see the larger buff added at the tail end of heroic. No offense intended but we have no plans to introduce our testing docs to the players nor start the process of vetting our testing processes through the live forums. Players are more than welcome to share their own results and, as I hope players can see by these forums, if there was some off build we missed we try our best to respond to player feedback and information.

Sev~

I think the advantage of a dex build is obvious and I gave you an example of how my build will change to test with. There is no chance an int build out dps a dex build splashing in kta and using no mercy and haste boost. This isn't theory crafting I've played with all these abilities extensively and understand how they work. It's simple math.

I don't mind that you added dex as an assassinate stat because dex-based dps rogues wanted that, but this is third time I've had to respec my toon for reasons I consider to be completely unnecessary. You could have kept int builds viable with a few balancing changes, but instead you passed on that and provided an answer to how int builds are good that seemed nonsensical to me and doesn't stack up mathematically or logically.

The reason dex was requested for assassinate was so that dex-based rogues that weren't assassins could add that to their build without having to change anything. Ironically int builds will have to switch to dex or settle for being subpar. That is what sucks about it - not the fact that you made the change. It's the fact that you didn't balance int/dex which requires me to respec or settle for being subpar. In this case balancing dex and int would have been so easy.

[flagged]

Our testing includes both raw DPS tests and end game fully geared out builds in both sustained DPS tests and the "Bruntsmash" test for real world burst conditions, even though that test has a number of issues and is highly biased. Assassin is and was in great shape in heroic tests, but fell behind at end game in burst and sustained DPS. That's why you see the larger buff added at the tail end of heroic. No offense intended but we have no plans to introduce our testing docs to the players nor start the process of vetting our testing processes through the live forums. Players are more than welcome to share their own results and, as I hope players can see by these forums, if there was some off build we missed we try our best to respond to player feedback and information.

Sev~

The problem is Sev, that when we submit our data your team just ignores it unless it supports the agenda you have set. These nebulous test that you use as a go to answer when someone disagrees with the teams direction are highly suspect because of that repeated use.

Clearly no one is asking to "Vet" your testing process or the classes, but by the same token we cannot turn off our brains and throw away experience and knowledge and blindly follow conclusions that are demonstrably incorrect when tested live.

[Bolo_Grubb]

We have completed our testing, comparing the DPS of Assassin in heroic and epic content versus a variety of top end builds. We have some changes to improved its performance.

Rogue



Tier Five

Assassinate - the saving throw is now 10 + Rogue Level + the greater of Intelligence or Dexterity bonus + bonuses to Assassinate. Previous: the saving throw used 10 + Rogue level + Intelligence bonus + bonuses to Assassinate.

[/COLOR]Sev~

I do not like this change, but I am also not sure how much it will affect me.

Now I wish I had not spent the time in getting a +6 int tome, but oh well

I will have to play with a character builder and see. I will also have to check my current equipment set and see if i need to farm different gear. My first thought is my starting stats, I swap my 18 int for my 16 dex. This assumes I stay human. Since I no longer need "Insightful reflexes" I can afford to lose a feat, so maybe I change race for more dex. mmm I used to play a halfling assassin. Now without needing the Harper tree, maybe I can afford to pick up the extra sneak attack in halfling racial tree. Other racial trees are now worth a look.

The extra skills an int based gets are a waste. Right now I have max ranks in Swim, Tumble, and haggle. I can drop those with no effect on play style or in game abilities. mm I guess I need to check wiki for dex items.

[slarden]

mm I guess I need to check wiki for dex items.

A couple of end game items that aren't too hard to get:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Ethereal_Bracers
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Mentau%27s_Goggles
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Necklac...ystic_Eidolons (upgraded has insightful dex and con +4)

[changelingamuck]

the actual poison attacks having junk save formulas. Side note, maybe you can un-junk their save formulas.

Oh yeah, forgot about this. Are the poison saves going to be fixed Sev? They are currently worthless and are effectively a 2 AP sink to unlock the benefits of assassin's mark.

I'm also still concerned about the issue of the poison strikes dc save formula as well. I had guessed that the save DC formula would be changed from the impotent (10 + half Rogue level + Int modifier) to a more workable formula that would include full Rogue level--just like the assassinate save DC formula. The poison strikes only proc their effects with saves on a vorpal roll anyways and their DCs can't be boosted by feats or equipment.

Incidentally, if the poison strikes were given a realistic save DC, equal to assassinate, that would give Intelligence-based rogues a tiny buff to even things up a tiny bit with the Dex-based builds without changing anything earthshaking...

[depositbox]

I think the advantage of a dex build is obvious and I gave you an example of how my build will change to test with. There is no chance an int build out dps a dex build splashing in kta and using no mercy and haste boost.

What exactly is the dex build gaining over int? Not counting no mercy and trash mobs. raw red named dps only. And any of the int or dex builds can get haste boost.

[depositbox]

No offense intended but we have no plans to introduce our testing docs to the players nor start the process of vetting our testing processes through the live forums.

Sev~

Why? Clearly we do a better job of remembering effects and mechanics that youre too new to know yet. Builds you didnt think of that you have to rush back to and make adjustments to because of oversight. Infinite bugs that arent on known issues list. So on and so on.

[brzytki]

I'm also still concerned about the issue of the poison strikes dc save formula as well. I had guessed that the save DC formula would be changed from the impotent (10 + half Rogue level + Int modifier) to a more workable formula that would include full Rogue level--just like the assassinate save DC formula. The poison strikes only proc their effects with saves on a vorpal roll anyways and their DCs can't be boosted by feats or equipment.

Incidentally, if the poison strikes were given a realistic save DC, equal to assassinate, that would give Intelligence-based rogues a tiny buff to even things up a tiny bit with the Dex-based builds without changing anything earthshaking...

Lol, i've just realized that the poisons have only INT mod and no DEX in their formulas. That means that now an assassin with 70 INT can have 50 DC (which doesn't work in EH+ quests) while a DEX based one after the update will have around 35 DC. That might not even land in most EN quests.

Anyway, poisons are only good for applying the mark, no one will count on them landing on any mob if you guys don't fix their farmulas.

[PermaBanned]

...this is third time I've had to respec my toon for reasons I consider to be completely unnecessary. You could have kept int builds viable with a few balancing changes...
*snip*
It's the fact that you didn't balance int/dex which requires me to respec or settle for being subpar.

lol What exactly is your Int build losing that's forcing you to respec? Where is your DPS, survivability, etc decreasing? The build you're currently playing is presumably in a good place, correct? So the only reason you "have" change it is because you could have a little more if you do, right? Int builds aren't losing any amount of viability here, they'll be just as viable post patch as they are pre-patch, right? But you're being "forced" to change... Lol

[slarden]

What exactly is the dex build gaining over int? Not counting no mercy and trash mobs. raw red named dps only. And any of the int or dex builds can get haste boost.

You can see the net effect on my build a few posts down responding to ironclam

Gain 1 feat (not needing insightful reflexes)
Free up 6 action points
No mercy
Haste Boost
+11 bonus to dex vs +10 bonus to int
+1 assassinate dc (+2 if HH necklace if worn)
+2 additional burst assassinate dc from tenser's scroll for tough content
- 6 damage from KTA
- 1 Melee Power
+1 higher damage due to dex being higher than int (+2 if I wore the HH necklace)
Better
Ability to pass through enemies when tumbling
Immunity to knockdown and slippery surfaces
Higher dodge
Higher AC
I lose a few skills I wasn't using
I lose the ability to twist in daunting roar for cc:
My int-based trap skills remain no fail
My dex-based trap skill remain no fail

As an int build I had no room for haste boost due to AP requirements in harper tree. Int builds could have a tiny bit of extra damage to bosses from +6 kta and +1 melee power and down +1-2 damage from ability modifier. You are talking about a very small benefit for only one part of the game - red named boss fights. That is really the easier part of the game.

[Thrudh]

Lethality will be changed to only work with one handed weapons.

Sev~

This is a good change... Along with making Cartwheel qstaff only.