Rogue - Assassin Changes

[brzytki]

In this very thread there are breakdowns from the "dex is bad" side that clearly admit/show that Dex = about +3 Assassinate DC if you scroll tensors and INT = slightly higher weapon DPS

70INT + KtA (30+15 damage mod) is the equivalent to 100 stat for your damage stat and about 7 damage better than a 40 INT plus 70 DEX (30+7 damage mod) or the equivalent of 84 stat, ad 6 more Dex to it (from Tensors if you enjoy that sort of thing) and you're at 90. So again the differences are not what people are making them out to be and most of the differences are about anti-dex people cherry picking assumptions (like only Dex users will use Yugo pots... self serving nonesense, most Assassins will use neither, and most of them wont want to swap to a scroll constantly either)

Once again the people saying their is a "vast" difference are playing Forum DDO.

If needed they can Balance this quite easilly after the fact: remove 2 dex from Cap, ad it to INT. wow that was hard...

There are clear tradeoffs here those who insist that Dex is the "vastly superior" option are welcome to do less DPS than a INT while running around swapping to tensors scrolls over and over... I for one and I know a lot of other non Forum DDO'ers will avoid those lame scrolls like the plague and happily take the higher DPS KtA synergy option.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Forum version of DDO.

Please, the only thing you seem to see is KtA and Tensers. I and some other posters proved you wrong like 20 pages ago so i don't know why you keep posting the same thing. KtA is really a minimal difference in DPS and it certainly is not in favour of INT build in total DPS when DEX based assassin can easily switch to LD while having the same/better assassinate DC. Obviously, you won't argue that 6-7 damage from KtA trumps 50+ MP and other DPS perks, right?

Yugo pots. I don't really know why you think people won't spend 1-2 hours of their play time to complete 5-6 lvl 19 quests on elite to get favor needed to buy them. Not to mention that you don't have to get the favor each life, you get it once and buy 2 mil worth of pots and not step a foot in any of those quests ever again. That's the self-serving nonsense. You buy a pot for plat that lasts 15 minutes and gain +1 damage, +1 DC, +6 SA to-hit, +1 regular to-hit, +1 reflex, +1 DEX skills and the drawback is -2 to-hit. Really, no one will use it, right...

[Wizza]

Will Rogues get Hearts of Woods for this? We need Feat swaps, different stat point allocation for this pass, it's not just an enhancement issue.

[Tesrali]

Happy to see the interesting changes in the 3 trees. We are all very excited about rogues atm. Thanks for all the attention.

We have completed our testing, comparing the DPS of Assassin in heroic and epic content versus a variety of top end builds. We have some changes to improved its performance.

Rogue

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (depending on weapon). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.

Rogue - Assassin

Innate Abilities

Lethality - (Removed all old functionality.) While wearing light or cloth armor you gain +1 Insight bonus to critical damage multiplier to any weapon you are wielding.


Tier One

Poison Strikes - a new Assassin's Mark now refreshes the duration of an existing mark.

Stealthy - Movement speed during stealth is increased to +25/+50/+75. Previous: +20/+35/+50%

Tier Three

Shadow Dagger - the saving throw is now 10/14/18 + Rogue Level + the greater of Intelligence or Dexterity bonus. Damage now scales with 400% of Melee Power. Previous: the saving throw was 10/14/18 + half Rogue level + Intelligence bonus, and damage scaling was 200%.


Tier Four

Execute - Extra damage now scales with 400% Melee Power. Previous: 200%


Tier Five

Assassinate - the saving throw is now 10 + Rogue Level + the greater of Intelligence or Dexterity bonus + bonuses to Assassinate. Previous: the saving throw used 10 + Rogue level + Intelligence bonus + bonuses to Assassinate.

Measure the Foe - now gains 6 Melee Power per stack. Previous: 4 Melee Power per stack

Deadly Strikes - now adds +10 damage against enemies with an Assassin's Mark. Previous: +5

Sev~

[slarden]

Iirc that statement was before the update tho and they also stated more than one time that the change was intended to be in the initial update.
I don't think divine grace was something that should have been nerfed in the first place. The problem was that there were not enough good reasons for other classes(maybe only sorcs) to take those over 2 Paladin.

The most recent statement he made was long after the paladin update.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5515280

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5515304

There are plenty of reasons to take more than 2 paladin - like 20 paladin is absolutely amazing for example. Amazing DPS, amazing defenses, amazing self heals.

3 levels of paladin gets you defense stance

4 levels of paladin gets you +6 con for a few more AP.

The "there is no reason to take more than 2 levels of paladin" was invalidated the minute the paladin revamp was released on Lamannia. There are many 2 splashes of fighter, rogue, monk, favored soul out there. There are builds with 1 wizard splashed for the feat. I don't think it makes sense to try and force just paladin splashes to take more than 2 levels.

[Thar]

We have completed our testing, comparing the DPS of Assassin in heroic and epic content versus a variety of top end builds. We have some changes to improved its performance.

Rogue

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (depending on weapon). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.

Rogue - Assassin

Innate Abilities

Lethality - (Removed all old functionality.) While wearing light or cloth armor you gain +1 Insight bonus to critical damage multiplier to any weapon you are wielding.


Tier One

Poison Strikes - a new Assassin's Mark now refreshes the duration of an existing mark.

Stealthy - Movement speed during stealth is increased to +25/+50/+75. Previous: +20/+35/+50%

Tier Three

Shadow Dagger - the saving throw is now 10/14/18 + Rogue Level + the greater of Intelligence or Dexterity bonus. Damage now scales with 400% of Melee Power. Previous: the saving throw was 10/14/18 + half Rogue level + Intelligence bonus, and damage scaling was 200%.


Tier Four

Execute - Extra damage now scales with 400% Melee Power. Previous: 200%


Tier Five

Assassinate - the saving throw is now 10 + Rogue Level + the greater of Intelligence or Dexterity bonus + bonuses to Assassinate. Previous: the saving throw used 10 + Rogue level + Intelligence bonus + bonuses to Assassinate.

Measure the Foe - now gains 6 Melee Power per stack. Previous: 4 Melee Power per stack

Deadly Strikes - now adds +10 damage against enemies with an Assassin's Mark. Previous: +5

Sev~

good changes especially making Dex viable. Yes people, DEX is the classes primary stat. but still concerned about defensive capability. can't dps when you blow up.

[CThruTheEgo]

good changes especially making Dex viable. Yes people, DEX is the classes primary stat. but still concerned about defensive capability. can't dps when you blow up.

Well, dex based has significant defensive advantages over int, so this change will be a huge boost to an assassin's defenses.

[slarden]

good changes especially making Dex viable. Yes people, DEX is the classes primary stat. but still concerned about defensive capability. can't dps when you blow up.

Int has always been the primary stat for assassins. As I recall in 3.5 assassins had spell like abilities based off int to help with their craft - so this wasn't even just DDO lore t was D&D lore.

The request for this change wasn't coming from assassins. It was coming from rogues leveraging the synergies between the assassin and acrobat tree. If they wanted to make a change like this to help out non-assassins the least they could do is balance it so existing assassins don't need to respec for dex.

Dex is so much better that there is no choice between dex and int. This is basically a replacement of an assassin's main stat from int to dex.

[HuneyMunster]

On first glance looks like Im gonna changed my drow to halfling and spend 41 in assassin, 31 in acrobat and 8 in halfling. Insightful reflexes becomes dodge and build points would be 20dex, 16con, 16int. Or could either drop halfling enhancements for KtA or drop Cartwheel and either No mercy or defensive roll to get KtA and 2 dex.

Shadai-Kai is another option Im now looking at.

[HuneyMunster]

Int has always been the primary stat for assassins. As I recall in 3.5 assassins had spell like abilities based off int to help with their craft - so this wasn't even just DDO lore t was D&D lore.

The request for this change wasn't coming from assassins. It was coming from rogues leveraging the synergies between the assassin and acrobat tree. If they wanted to make a change like this to help out non-assassins the least they could do is balance it so existing assassins don't need to respec for dex.

Dex is so much better that there is no choice between dex and int. This is basically a replacement of an assassin's main stat from int to dex.

Yeah exactly. I was hoping that assassinate wasn't gonna have dex option due to lore etc, but now it looks certain then dex based is what it will be for me.

[nibel]

Int has always been the primary stat for assassins. As I recall in 3.5 assassins had spell like abilities based off int to help with their craft - so this wasn't even just DDO lore t was D&D lore.

Not Spell-like. They had normal arcane spells. And like all half-casters (like paladins and rangers), anything with a DC is basically useless to cast. And the Death Attack is very situational, even if you max out its DC.

Int is clearly a secondary or tertiary stat for assassins, after dexterity and constitution. It is on par of wisdom requirements for rangers and paladins.

[davmuzl]

The most recent statement he made was long after the paladin update.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5515280

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5515304

There are plenty of reasons to take more than 2 paladin - like 20 paladin is absolutely amazing for example. Amazing DPS, amazing defenses, amazing self heals.

3 levels of paladin gets you defense stance

4 levels of paladin gets you +6 con for a few more AP.

The "there is no reason to take more than 2 levels of paladin" was invalidated the minute the paladin revamp was released on Lamannia. There are many 2 splashes of fighter, rogue, monk, favored soul out there. There are builds with 1 wizard splashed for the feat. I don't think it makes sense to try and force just paladin splashes to take more than 2 levels.

Wow looks like it took them way longer to change that than I remembered.

You are right there are enough good reasons to take more Paladin. What I wanted to say was that most popular builds had too much synergy with 2 Paladin back then and that I don't think that Divine Grace was what should have been nerfed and rather that they should've looked at what changes to the game caused the popularity of the 2 lvl split.

[Monkey-Boy]

These assassin changes look wonderful and appropriate if what we're seeing from barbs and pallies is now the new normal.

[Severlin]

Lethality will be changed to only work with one handed weapons.

Sev~

[CThruTheEgo]

Lethality will be changed to only work with one handed weapons.

Sev~

I think this and the change to cartwheel charge are good. It won't lock acrobats and assassins into spending 72 AP between the two trees.

That said, it also won't make dex based assassins any less superior. They will now have more AP to spend in harper for cheaper know the angles and possibly melee power. So they may be behind ever so slightly in dps (which I'm not entirely convinced of when you consider no mercy), but still way ahead in defenses.

[Ailia]

Lethality will be changed to only work with one handed weapons.

Sev~

So, acrobat looses its biggest gain? Have doubts its going to be back to competitive when Bards and Pallys are still running around with 11-20x4 weapons.

[HastyPudding]

I don't like this one bit. Dexterity to assassinate DC? No matter how much you delude yourselves, intelligence-based assassins are a thing of the past, now.

Assassin has now:
- Gained a free feat
- Gained 12 AP to spend wherever they want
- Gained another assassinate ability, because Shadowdancer's executioner's strike/shot is based only on dexterity (which sucks for mechanics because dexterity is no longer a really useful stat).
- Gained ridiculous synergy with the acrobat tree
- Made obsolete intelligence based builds
- Lost skill points for useful skills such as diplomacy or bluff

[Mindos]

So, acrobat looses its biggest gain? Have doubts its going to be back to competitive when Bards and Pallys are still running around with 11-20x4 weapons.

These are my thoughts too. Finally, rogue gets the bump it needs only to be nerfed half a day later. So, we just can't have everyone go Dex, hmmm? But we can have everyone go bard or pally? Put another way, we weaken the power of rogue so that the choices within rogue have parity meanwhile the bards and pallys dominate regardless of their internal choices. But reasons! Thematic light armour! I'm angry so I'm gonna stop typing.

[MacDubh]

Sev,

The Shadar Kai dark legions thank you for this change. Muhahahahahahahaha.

No longer will we be sneered at by the poncey Drow rogues who think they are so clever. Now our extra dex and sneak attack brings the pain in joyful manner.

Let us hope the brethren in Wheloon get similar boosts to take out those pesky Barbs and Pallies.

[Severlin]

So, acrobat looses its biggest gain? Have doubts its going to be back to competitive when Bards and Pallys are still running around with 11-20x4 weapons.

Acrobat without Lethality in our tests can hit Swashbuckler DPS levels. They were a little low before we added the extra Doublestrike. These are solo tests. They will be even better in groups with higher Sneak Attack uptime.

Sev~

[Ailia]

Acrobat without Lethality in our tests can hit Swashbuckler DPS levels. They were a little low before we added the extra Doublestrike. These are solo tests. They will be even better in groups with higher Sneak Attack uptime.

Sev~

What weapons were each using for the comparison if ya don't mind me asking?

Tier 3 TF with mortal fear is probably pretty close, but as soon as you consider the rest of 3-27, its almost entirely in favor of the swash. Brush hooks at 12 for 13-20x4, 11-20x4 with barb splash or as a barb with bard splash, that break 95% of DR, everything prior to 12 is at least an ESOS profile. Pallys likewise with a Sword of Shadow doing 13-20x4 at 14. Acrobat is obviously not even in the competition until 12 due to enhancement reqs, and doesn't really seem to compare favorably until 28 in terms of weapons. The +1 multi would have made a lot of named weapons a lot more viable compared to what bards and pallys are running around with in those ranges.

On the other hand, I do get that this would practically railroad 64 AP and level 18 for rogues, Perhaps there's some room for some other improvement in the last open T5 Acrobat enhancement slot? Something to help actually apply sneak damage would be nice. A two rank enhancement giving your weapon deception/improved deception would be neat.