Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Jetrule]

The bottom line is that I won't lose anything I actually use. I get all the skills I need with either a dex or an int build. Skill checks are a non-issue. All that will change is the margin by which I am no "no fail".

It isn't like the dex vs. int decision is a debate-worthy subject. Dex wins hands down and this was known to be the case before this change was made. It's a proxy buff to assassins since dex builds are better than int builds.

Agreed Dex on balance wins for overall survivbeability when dex modifier to assassinate is brought in. My point is that Int still has some value in skills, and synergy with mech. tree, and shadow dancer. It would be balanced in my opinion if the assassinate dc. was calculated to be including either the straight int, modifier. Or the dexterity modifier-x . I would suggest dexterity mod.-5 as I posted before.

[Delacroix21]

Lethality - (Removed all old functionality.) While wearing light or cloth armor you gain +1 Insight bonus to critical damage multiplier to any weapon you are wielding.


[/COLOR]Sev~

Important question= What weapons does this work with? Are handwraps left out as per usual?

also equally important= What does this stack with? everything? nothing? For instance, will it stack with mechanic crit multi?

[nibel]

Stealthy - Movement speed during stealth is increased to +25/+50/+75. Previous: +20/+35/+50%

Please, can you make an exception and make this improvement over EVERY "Stealthy" enhancement across the board? While rogues are the only class that have a stealth-based attack (Assassinate), many other classes have native stealth skills (monk, bard, ranger), and that might help them all.

If it helps, they are on the following trees:

• Deepwood Stalker
• Half-Elf (under Skill Focus)
• Halfling
• Human (under Skill Focus)
• Ninja Spy enhancements
• Purple Dragon Knight (under Skill Focus)
• Shadar-kai

[CThruTheEgo]

Agreed Dex on balance wins for overall survivbeability when dex modifier to assassinate is brought in. My point is that Int still has some value in skills, and synergy with mech. tree, and shadow dancer. It would be balanced in my opinion if the assassinate dc. was calculated to be including either the straight int, modifier. Or the dexterity modifier-x . I would suggest dexterity mod.-5 as I posted before.

The argument that int based has any advantage in skills whatsoever, does not hold up. As others have correctly pointed out, it is not any advantage worth considering in this debate.

There is little use that an assassin (which is a melee build) will get out of mechanic. Without any ranged feats (which a melee assassin doesn't have room for) nothing in mechanic is going to give you a decent ranged option. By investing in mechanic, an int based assassin's ranged dps might go from god awful to just terrible. It's just not worth the AP investment. Wand and scroll mastery is not needed and still requires 5 AP wasted to access. That's a big investment for what is essentially the worst self healing option in EE. Any assassin, whether int or dex based, that wants to take improved traps will have to make sacrifices elsewhere to free up the AP for it. Int based has no advantage by taking improved traps and using them because, as nokowi has shown and as anyone who knows what DCs are required in EEs, any assassin can get a disable device skill high enough to make traps no fail. So int based has no advantage with mechanic worth considering in this debate.

The only advantage int based has with shadowdancer is shadow manipulation, and although it's fun and can be useful, it's definitely not critical. Again, this is hardly an advantage worth considering.

There is really no contest. Int based needs something very significant to make it worthwhile, or dex based needs a significant nerf to give it less synergy with both assassin and acrobat.

EDIT: Whether we like it or not, there are only two factors that really matter in this game (or rather, they matter so much that everything else just becomes superfluous) – offense and defense. These are the only factors that should be considered in the dex vs int debate. Otherwise, there is no debate. If dex is going to have a significant advantage defensively with a minimal loss of offense, then give int a significant lead in offense to make these really competitive. And it better be a huge boost because right now I'm pretty sure dex wins in offense as well.

[davmuzl]

Yes and this also goes to nerfing things in the acrobat tree that help rogues. We mentioned ALL these things already before the devs decided to make this change. It was crystal clear dex is better to anyone that understands assassin.

As for constantly changing rogue after the next update. If you are going to cut off my hand please just get it over with. Don't do it one finger at a time.

There is no reason to stay int. People are going to etr at a minimum to respec. Some will heroic or iconic TR if there race doesn't line up with the new dex assassin. Just let it be and let us move on. Don't turn this into another divine grace nerf where it's looming over our head in the known issues list for nearly a year but never changed, but always something we have to think about.

It's not like they ever changed their mind about divine grace. They always said it was coming and whoever played a character using the extra saves knew that it wasn't wai (I have to agree tho it was annyoing to know that you could just go with 2 pally lvls and be fine).
If this remains a discussion it would be worse, just because every Assassin who cares about making their build better would have to reincarnate one way or the other every time.

On the question of what is better (int or dex)- to me it's not a real question. Dex gets a higher DC (mainly through Tensers and the fact that dex items are easier to get and fit into the gear), they get better defenses, they can save a bunch of AP in harper if they want to. On the other hand I don't know if int actually does (significantly) more damage and the extra skill points don't really matter, because rogues have enough anyway.
I would prefer if there was either no dex option at all or a real benefit for int based Assassins.

[Novalis]

I have been seeing some post U25 patch 1 broken mechanics when it comes to rogue, especially when it comes to my assassin. I have made a couple entries in the forums and bug reports, all met with resounding indifference. I'm hoping for a response from someone on the following issues.

Hit detection for one. I would be perfectly lined up on a fleshie mob for assassination but instead I hit the spider nest 5 body lengths away at my 2 o'clock. I have attempted assassinate and hit nothing, or the box behind them. (Not kidding.) I will hit them with sneak dmg but no instakill & I have more than sufficient dc.

Blind effects seem to either not work properly or not work at all. Blinding effects such as TF blinding fear & shadowdagger, if they're blinded and return to non agro state, I cannot assassinate them unlike before. Even worse when I get blind effect in combat log and they still chase after me. I have also noted I don't get sneak dmg when they're supposed to be blind.

Sneak detection seems to be broken. This is not about the champs with true seeing. Sometimes I can be breathing down their collar without detection and other times they spot me for no reason from half a room away even with a 100 hide & move silently.

And I have noticed an increase in required assassinate dc's from established mobs in quests like EE Necro Inferno unless this isn't WAI as well. My assassinate dc is a nifty 73.

I am enjoying playing my rogue now more than ever. I am planning his ETR train & plan heroic past lives to. But i'd like to do it because I want to and come back to being rogue. Not because I HAVE TO like i'm gonna have to with my monk.

[dualscissors]

That would be a bad change. Assassins are now dex builds we should be able to benefit from the acrobat tree just like acrobats benefit greatly from the assassin tree.

We aren't seeing the language on the Assassin 18 Core Lethality. If it applies only to light melee weapons or knives/kukris, then quarterstaffs would be barred. It would be fair, in this case, if Assassins couldn't poach a super potent core 18 from Thief Acrobat by opening it only to staffs.

I may be overlooking some obvious cases in builds but level 18 cores that are this potent seem most balanced when they have some limitations. And I think Lethality now qualifies as does the new and improved +20% DS description in Cartwheel Charge!

Look, I get it that Assassins and Acrobats using each other's core 18s would be massive-feel-good DPS but if it's too much compared to other builds, then I get the instinct for Devs to pull it back.

[IronClan]

In this very thread there are breakdowns from the "dex is bad" side that clearly admit/show that Dex = about +3 Assassinate DC if you scroll tensors and INT = slightly higher weapon DPS

70INT + KtA (30+15 damage mod) is the equivalent to 100 stat for your damage stat and about 7 damage better than a 40 INT plus 70 DEX (30+7 damage mod) or the equivalent of 84 stat, ad 6 more Dex to it (from Tensors if you enjoy that sort of thing) and you're at 90. So again the differences are not what people are making them out to be and most of the differences are about anti-dex people cherry picking assumptions (like only Dex users will use Yugo pots... self serving nonesense, most Assassins will use neither, and most of them wont want to swap to a scroll constantly either)

Once again the people saying their is a "vast" difference are playing Forum DDO.

If needed they can Balance this quite easilly after the fact: remove 2 dex from Cap, ad it to INT. wow that was hard...

There are clear tradeoffs here those who insist that Dex is the "vastly superior" option are welcome to do less DPS than a INT while running around swapping to tensors scrolls over and over... I for one and I know a lot of other non Forum DDO'ers will avoid those lame scrolls like the plague and happily take the higher DPS KtA synergy option.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Forum version of DDO.

[slarden]

It's not like they ever changed their mind about divine grace. They always said it was coming and whoever played a character using the extra saves knew that it wasn't wai (I have to agree tho it was annyoing to know that you could just go with 2 pally lvls and be fine).
If this remains a discussion it would be worse, just because every Assassin who cares about making their build better would have to reincarnate one way or the other every time.

On the question of what is better (int or dex)- to me it's not a real question. Dex gets a higher DC (mainly through Tensers and the fact that dex items are easier to get and fit into the gear), they get better defenses, they can save a bunch of AP in harper if they want to. On the other hand I don't know if int actually does (significantly) more damage and the extra skill points don't really matter, because rogues have enough anyway.
I would prefer if there was either no dex option at all or a real benefit for int based Assassins.

On divine grace, I recall Executive Producer Severlin stating he was leaning towards not nerfing divine grace and giving other classes besides paladins gearing options for save boosts that were treated the same as divine grace for stacking purposes (stacks with a resistance item but not the divine grace feat). In my opinion it's been blowing in the wind for too long and the fact that they made paladin a superclass makes me wonder why they even need DG to be something that is unique to builds with many paladin levels. Paladins are already have so many advantages and are over-powered compared to other builds that are splashing 2 pal. It seems like an unnecessary nerf. Still, they should either just change it or remove it from the known issues list instead of letting it hang out there for so long.

[dualscissors]

This thread has become massive. It's understandable if some suggestions were overlooked.

To reiterate, the DCs for Poison (10 + 1/2 Rogue level + Int) are completely unworkable for Epic mobs. It's clumsy for the DC effect to exist at all if the DC cap is ~45ish.

A reasonable DC of 65 would require a 100 INT (!) with the current formula; that's obviously broken, no?

[dualscissors]

In this very thread there are breakdowns from the "dex is bad" side that clearly admit/show that Dex = about +3 Assassinate DC if you scroll tensors and INT = slightly higher weapon DPS
...

So again the differences are not what people are making them out to be and most of the differences are about anti-dex people cherry picking assumptions (like only Dex users will use Yugo pots... self serving nonesense, most Assassins will use neither, and most of them wont want to swap to a scroll constantly either)

I think that mischaracterizes it. There aren't posters with moral outrage about Dex as the DC stat. It is simply a "Devs, if you want to open Dex up, a lot of massive positives come with that" argument.

Having a few more points you can pick up in Dex is a big deal in the question of "Do I have to take Shadowdancer or can I up my MP 70 pts. with Legendary Dreadnought and still have an excellent Assassinate DC."

Being able to synergize really well with the avoidance and DPS perks in Assassin and Thief Acrobat is a pretty big deal.

Saving a feat, not having to spend AP deeply into Harper is substantial.

Sure, having an extra +7ish damage for KtA; having a better Disable score; and having a couple more fluff skills maxed are fine points, but it's pretty reasonable to think they aren't equal.

[slarden]

In this very thread there are breakdowns from the "dex is bad" side that clearly admit/show that Dex = about +3 Assassinate DC if you scroll tensors and INT = slightly higher weapon DPS

70INT + KtA (30+15 damage mod) is the equivalent to 100 stat for your damage stat and about 7 damage better than a 40 INT plus 70 DEX (30+7 damage mod) or the equivalent of 84 stat, ad 6 more Dex to it (from Tensors if you enjoy that sort of thing) and you're at 90. So again the differences are not what people are making them out to be and most of the differences are about anti-dex people cherry picking assumptions (like only Dex users will use Yugo pots... self serving nonesense, most Assassins will use neither, and most of them wont want to swap to a scroll constantly either)

Once again the people saying their is a "vast" difference are playing Forum DDO.

If needed they can Balance this quite easilly after the fact: remove 2 dex from Cap, ad it to INT. wow that was hard...

There are clear tradeoffs here those who insist that Dex is the "vastly superior" option are welcome to do less DPS than a INT while running around swapping to tensors scrolls over and over... I for one and I know a lot of other non Forum DDO'ers will avoid those lame scrolls like the plague and happily take the higher DPS KtA synergy option.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Forum version of DDO.

There is a good reason why people are reluctant to take +2 int yugo pots, but are willing to take + 2 dex yugo pots.

Int pots: +2 int, a small amount of sp regeneration and -50% fortification.
Dex pots: +2 dex, + 6 sneak attack to hit, -2 to hit

To effectively use int pots in EE I need to increase my fortification which requires either a twist (brace for impact namely) or gearing changes which are all unacceptable. If I don't twist in brace for impact I leave myself open to crits from standard creatures which just isn't acceptable to me. There is no chance I will run around in EE content with less than 100% fortification.

Let me just tell you how this change will impact my build. This is my current build and proposed new build based on these changes presented here today.

I won't be changing my gear, the only thing in my build that will change is selecting dex instead of int where it is a choice. This means my int drops by

7 level ups
4 starting point
8 enchancements
4 ED
-----------------------
23 Total

Change in int modifier: 12

Change in KTA damage: 6

I lose 6 damage from KTA but gain no mercy, haste boost and other things from Acrobat tree.

I was previously taking

racial tree: 6 (2 int but with 2 wasted AP to get it)
assassin tree: 41 (4 int - same as a dex build)
acrobat tree: 8 (0 int)
Harper Tree: 25 (4 int + KTA + 6 MP + Agent of Good)

Now with shadowdodge I can save 2 AP and skip the racial tree and get my dex from harper tree

racial tree: 0
Assassin tree: 41 ( 4 dex and nothing else changes)
acrobat tree: 25 (5 dex + no mercy + haste boost)
Harper tree: 14 (2 dex + KTA + 5 MP + Agent of Good)

I get 11 dex instead of 10 int. I lose 6 damage from KTA and 1 MP, but I gain haste boost and no mercy. I am not sure how my dps is going down. This doesn't count doublestrike and the other benefits. I see only upside here. I also have the option to get 2 dex from tumbling and 4 dex from tenser's as a consumable. The downside to int yugo pots is fairly rough so I didn't use those. There is no downside to dex pots so I will get +2 from that all the time. I wouldn't use the tensers scroll option often, but in difficult content where it is needed I certainly would take the 1 second to do it before an assassinate. Same with tumbling. This means my dex will be 2-4 higher than I would with an int build depending on whether I use the +4 dex necklace from haunted halls (+1 from enh, + 1 from necklace vs. int optic int +3, +2 from yugo pots). My assassinate is 1-2 higher and with tumbling and tenser's it is 4-5 higher for difficult content situationally. Again, depending on whether I use the HH necklace. In my case I won't be using the necklace because of the domino effect it has on my gear which I worked hard on based on assassins being an int-based build.

Overall I was able to eliminate 6 wasted AP (4 from harper tree and 2 from racial tree) and I gained 1 feat which for me would translate to a level 27 epic feat. Epic Reflexes or Epic Defense (+10 PRR) or something else - I am not sure yet. Overall my dps is going up and I have some better burst assassinate potential for enemies with really high saves. The extra DC from yugo pots is a given - I will take that. The extra 3 DC from tumble and tenser's scroll I will only use when absolutely necessary. I won't be using the HH necklace and instead will use + 2 dex augment which I already have slotted. So basically my assassinate stays the same except for the +1 gain from dex yugo pots and the additional +3 burst boost I will use very sparingly. I have a +2 instead of +3 insightful item and gain 1 dex from enhancements which offset each other.

Dex is better from my perspective- I see no downside and this isn't any kind of forum game. I presented all the facts I can - I don't care what the devs do as long as they don't keep changing/nerfing once they make this change.

I also see no reason for Turbine not to implement this change if they are set on doing it. I just don't understand why it was necessary to change the assassin's stat from int to dex which this effectively does.

If they are interested in making both int and dex work - they can balance dex and int builds very easily. Add insightful reflexes to the capstone and give int-to-hit and damage in the cores so int-based assassins don't have the 4 AP and 1 feat tax for being an int build. Dex still probably wins, but at least then it's close and debatable. Int bulids would be better boss beaters and dex builds would be better trash beaters.

If they don't balance - I don't really care, but only new players and casual players will fall into the int-assassin trap in that case.

At the moment, dex is just better period. Which is fine with me really. It's a proxy-buff to the assassin tree, but unfortunately it comes with a cost of respec'ing to get this benefit. I prefer not to respec, get my favor, reflag, etc., but it's not the end of the world either since I enjoy the game. I just have other things I would have enjoy more than respecing, reflagging and regaining favor I already earned.

[Failedlegend]

It didn't work on anything with more than 1000 hit points.

Sev~

Thanks Sev, I've been wondering since Lama why people were upset...if it was bugged that makes sense.

@ Dex Assassinate, My Acrosassin aka "The Skullcracker" greatly appreciates this change but my Assassin/ShadowDancer will definitely be remaining Int based the Shadowdancer stuff is too much fun and now that Harper exists I can focuse on Dex even less as an assassin. IOW The addition of Ddex-Base Assassin is awesome but it's definatel;y a toss up to which is better, please leave it as is despite the doomsayers...I've too many awesome changes squashed due to doomsayers and the like.

[Bobby88888]

Well this heralds the end of int builds for sure. Dex has better DPS, better defence, better assassinate DCs (both of them) and looses nothing.

Skill points: well i already buy like 5 skills I don't want on my int assassin and others have pointed out that even with 8 int you can get all the needed skills but you can easily put 10-14 starting int and get more if you want. Your int based skills are all still high enough to work, just maybe wont crit succeed on low rolls any more. sure I occasionally hit intim but that is more for laughs than usefulness.... In the end it is irrelevant.

Assassinate: increased DC - ignoring tomes
Dex: 20 base + 7 lvl ups + 18 items +9 or more enhancement ( probably at least 10) + 6 ED + 2 yugo +2 shippy = 65 + 4 tensers +2 cartwheel charge= (dex races are 3 of the 4 main rog races so probably will have), (i would def use dex yugo pots if i needed the extra DC due to no penalty, same with tensers scrolls), (tumble as you move into position to your assassinate to set off cartwheel charge)
Int: 18 base + 7 lvl ups + 17 items + 8 enhancement +6 ED +2 shippy = 57 (maybe 9 enhancement but probably no more) (int races are limited to drow only so not counting that here), (unlikely to use int yugo pots personally due to severe penalty).
Which is +8 to mod or +4 to DC without tensers scrolls and cartwheel charge and +7 with them... thats a big boost and enough that you could ditch shadowdancer and not loose any DC for much bigger DPS boosts.

DPS: firstly KtA - int will probably be ~64 on int build which is +13 damage whilst it will probably be around 40 on a dex build for +7 damage. That is 6 damage difference....
No mercy - Most dex builds should be able to get this whilst no int build would. Worth more than 6 dmg per hit specially since this is passive.
Cartwheel Charge - +20% doublestrike? yes pls. but for dex only! int will never afford. Move in to set up your assassinate, hit tumble then assassinate with a +1 DC and burts out of stealth with +30 MP and 20% doublestrike....... nah dex is perfectly balanced with int....................

Defences: Lots of max dodge, dodge and some MDB bonuses in acro, all great things that an int based wont be able to afford thanks to harper but a dex will. Especially when you consider assassin is missing at least +5 MDB that it should have this is a big boon and also means you wont ahve to rely on nimbleness for keeping your dodge at max (though you may not have to anyway depends on a number of things)
*EDIT* forgot to mention improved defensive roll, i know some ppl dont like it but it has saved me many times with only the base ability will be so much better with the improved version.


Ok so on the rest of the pass it looks ok.
sneak speed is great
assassins mark extending is good, should drop AP cost to 1 (though the poison abilities themselves still remain not worth the space they take up).
Shadow Dagger, well its an improvement but I probs still won't take
Execute: I think extending the range would be more usefull than the damage, especially in heroics but also for epics, perhaps a little of both, or better yet but a marker on the focus orb at 30% HP (turn on or off in options) so we can see when they get to the hp threshold.
Assassinate: As above. Take this out it completely kills int builds and more importantly the flavour of the class (a cunning opponent). Or if you are dead set on leaving it in pump up int so they are at least on par, not necessarily in each category but across the board, and skills doesn't count for much at all. Just don't put it on live then remove it since i imagine almost all rogues will jump over to the dex bandwagon as soon as humanly possible and having to respec whole char there then back is just not cool. But this kills the assassin for me.
Measure the Foe: can't complain about + MP here though i would rather see some other way of boosting DPS but ill take what i can get. Still needs the duration shown on icon and some bonuses to MDB, at least 1 per stack, though in conjunction with acro dex assassins that is way broken but for int without it is not that great.
deadly Strikes: makes the 6 ap for poison line a little more worth it.


Other Concerns:
The mechanic now has access to at least 13 SA dice in their tree whilst assassin only has access to 8 and the mech can and probs will access 4 of those for 17 whilst assassin cannot access any of the mech ones being stuck at 8. Assassin has way lower dmg than mech, lower surviability, lower utility, lower heals and now also lower SA dmg (I know a subset of dmg). To me the Assassin SHOULD be the absolute KING of SA dmg, and when I told my guildys about this they were absolutely shocked that mech got more SA dice than assassins. Either remove all of the SA dice from mech cept the 2 on capstone or add in at least 10 SA dice to Assassin mostly ifnot all in t5 and high level cores. The Sneak Attack Training abilities are still priced double of elsewhere or more at 2 AP for 1 SA die, should be at least 1 SA die per AP.

If we are being forced to rely on scrolls for heals either add useful things for everyone to tier 1 mech or drop them down to tier 1 so everyone can access them without wasting a heap of AP.


EDIT: forgot to mention things like small loss in MP, gain of haste boost, saving a feat etc. but you can still see the point.

[FestusHood]

Can someone please remind me why people were complaining about getting an insta-kill on vorpal again...I thought it was a really cool thematic ability.

Edit: To clarify this is a cool ability to just less so and frankly no longer suits the name "Lethality" with the odd light armor requirement...I'd say rename it to something more related to the light armor's lack of restriction or something

Lithe-ality?

[davmuzl]

On divine grace, I recall Executive Producer Severlin stating he was leaning towards not nerfing divine grace and giving other classes besides paladins gearing options for save boosts that were treated the same as divine grace for stacking purposes (stacks with a resistance item but not the divine grace feat). In my opinion it's been blowing in the wind for too long and the fact that they made paladin a superclass makes me wonder why they even need DG to be something that is unique to builds with many paladin levels. Paladins are already have so many advantages and are over-powered compared to other builds that are splashing 2 pal. It seems like an unnecessary nerf. Still, they should either just change it or remove it from the known issues list instead of letting it hang out there for so long.

Iirc that statement was before the update tho and they also stated more than one time that the change was intended to be in the initial update.
I don't think divine grace was something that should have been nerfed in the first place. The problem was that there were not enough good reasons for other classes(maybe only sorcs) to take those over 2 Paladin.

[gwonbush]

While a mechanic using a non-repeating crossbow (a full 8 of those 13 dice in mechanic are for non-repeaters only) will have more sneak attack dice than an assassin, they will be doing less sneak attack damage overall. Even with the massive increase in rate of fire to non-repeaters, that is still no way comparable to the attack rate of two weapon fighting, with each hand getting sneak attack damage. Add to that that assassins have an attack (Shive) that makes a monster vulnerable to sneak attacks on hit while mechanics don't, and an assassin will be getting sneak attack more reliably than a mechanic as well.

[Bobby88888]

While a mechanic using a non-repeating crossbow (a full 8 of those 13 dice in mechanic are for non-repeaters only) will have more sneak attack dice than an assassin, they will be doing less sneak attack damage overall. Even with the massive increase in rate of fire to non-repeaters, that is still no way comparable to the attack rate of two weapon fighting, with each hand getting sneak attack damage. Add to that that assassins have an attack (Shive) that makes a monster vulnerable to sneak attacks on hit while mechanics don't, and an assassin will be getting sneak attack more reliably than a mechanic as well.

and that leaves 5 SA dice for repeaters and 4 more from assassin for 9 still on a repeater (more than assassin) with a much higher hits/min for much higher SA dmg. If you manage aggro well having no shiv style ability shouldn't be a problem, on my assassin i got full SA dmg for a long time without shiv. Having 8 more again on a great crossbow might not out SA dmg an assassin in the end but it still feels like it is encroaching on the assassins domain of king of SA dmg by putting out far larger SA numbers, and also benefiting most form the 150% MP scaling.

[Bobby88888]

The biggest issue with the Dex to assassinate is the issue of flavour.
The whole reason I came to assassin was for the flavour and the unique playstyle
Assassins are cunning, intelligent foes. They know where to place their strikes to hurt most, or kill with a single, well placed blow.
They are not someone who goes around doing backflips to kill people.

Sure they are dexterous too, but they are cunning and knowledgeable first and foremost.

Fighters can be dexterous, pallys, barbs, monks, bards, etc. that doesn't give them the ability to insta kill anyone, sure some of them have the ability to but it doesn't hinge off dex.

Remember also that Assassinate has a double DC. The hide and MS check which you must pass in order to even attempt to assassinate and then the assassinate check itself. The first is Dex based and now so is the second (unless you fall into the int trap or want to keep the flavour of the class). Sure the dex doesn't make much difference in the hide/ms check but it does help a bit, and is certainly a more valid argument than the int helping search and disable, the hide and ms have higher DCs so higher score is more use.


OK so while dex isn't in the flavour of assassin it is acceptable for it to be added to add more options but only if it is done right.
there r 4 categorys: 1 - Assassinate. 2 - DPS. 3 - Survivability. 4 - Utility.

If you want to add dex make them ~= in 2 categorys and 1 better in one of the others and the other 1 better in the other, OR INT better in 2 and Dex better in 2.

ie. Equal: utility and DPS
INT: Assassinate
Dex: survivability

For assassinate im not so sure that a better DC is the way to do that as opposed to more functionality/usefullness from the assassinate but again I am not sure that is the right path to take either. (like bypass DB or orange named death block effect etc.)
So it might be better to make assassinate Equal and give int better DPS.

But either way you get the picture.

If you are going to put Dex in, great! As long as it provides actual options as opposed to just making Int completly invalidated so those who care about flavour can keep using Int without being gimp.

I am fine if others don't stick to flavour as long as I can without being invalid which a system as above would allow so in that case I am all for letting Dex for assassinate DC but as is I am absolutely opposed.

The Mech and acro trees would need to be taken into consideration/revised and probably the harper tree too. part of the reason Dex is so much better as written is the awesome synergy with acro that is non existent with mech and harper. Ofc if Mech became synergistic with Int assassin there is still the problem that you can't afford to invest up it thanks to harper.
Maybe letting the targeting sights Int to dmg also apply to daggers and kukris will let it work if you also buff up the rest of the mech tree and appropriate changes to assassin.

[redoubt]

Nimbleness and MTF dodge bonuses are marginalized because they don't raise the caps and most pure rogues are already at the caps.

I recommend:

Nimbleness:
-- on hit, +1 maximum dexterity bonus in light armor, +1 maximum dodge, +1 dodge (per stack)
-- no change to how it builds
-- have the first stack expire at 6 seconds and then 1 stack every second. Any new stack restarts the 6 second timer.

Measure the Foe: (Only changing the dodge portion)
-- +2 maximum dexterity bonus in light armor, +2 maximum dodge, +2 dodge (per stack)
-- Lasts 15 seconds (assassinate timer, but a small buffer.)