Rogue - Assassin Changes

[brzytki]

The additional skills on an int based won't really make a difference. Int based gets so many skills that they end up taking useless ones. A dex based can still get all the essential skills and then some.

With the changes to acrobat you just posted, there is no way that int based will beat dex based in dps. While int based gets know the angles, dex based can go 31 points in acrobat to get 20% doublestrike for 12 seconds after tumbling. That's huge and will beat whatever you would get from know the angles. With 60 int, an int based gets 25 additional damage from know the angles. If a dex based assassin does go for cartwheel charge, all assassin tier 5s, and the assassin capstone, that's 74 AP total. Which means a dex based can get the first rank of know the angles, which is expensive sp wise, but would make for some nice burst dps. But that 74 AP would get you a lot more dps than going full into harper as an int based, including 9 melee power and full ranks of know the angles.

^This^ DEX based will completely abandon Harper tree and will get a huge boost from acrobat enhancements (No Mercy and Cartwheel Charge). Not to mention, that you'll get +1 DC for 12 seconds after tumbling which has the same timer as Assassinate's cooldown. Add more survivability from Improved Defensive Roll, more MDB/DEX/dodge from Shadow Dodge and there is completely no contest. Oh, and a free feat.

[Severlin]

^This^ DEX based will completely abandon Harper tree and will get a huge boost from acrobat enhancements (No Mercy and Cartwheel Charge). Not to mention, that you'll get +1 DC for 12 seconds after tumbling which has the same timer as Assassinate's cooldown. Add more survivability from Improved Defensive Roll, more MDB/DEX/dodge from Shadow Dodge and there is completely no contest. Oh, and a free feat.

These are good points. We will watch for these things. That doublestrike might need to change to be staff specific.

(As an aside, tumbling every 12 seconds will tank your DPS pretty hard.)

Sev~

[Mellkor]

There hasn't been a viable reason to go dex based for years now. With dex to assassinate, there will be no reason to go int based.

I disagree, as it is now, there are very good reasons to go INT based and very good reasons to go DEX based, with different advantages and disadvantages with both.

DEX to assassinate will take that choice away, IMO. (we actually agree on this one, but for apparently different reasons.)

Leave the INT to assassinate DC as it was, make the other changes and all will be well.

Although these changes probably still favor the dex based builds.

[CThruTheEgo]

If it becomes an issue we can make adjustments, like making the acrobat doublestrike be staff only.

Sev~

I do have to say though, Sev, that if dex to assassinate goes live a lot of assassins are going to be TRing/ETRing/LRing into dex based. So it would be a very bad idea to remove dex to assassinate once it goes live if it is determined to be OP. Please be certain that this is what you all want before implementing this change, because it's definitely not something which should be taken back.

[oradafu]

Holy mother of rogues, you are right, CThru. Basically Assassins and TAs will share 90% AP distribution now, that sounds extremely varied and interesting.

I go faster to the nine hells and back for a crit multi than Elminster can light his pipe.

I'm going to have to see these builds, because right now I'm just not seeing how a pure Acrobat can get the 31 AP for Lethality.

[Torvaldsberg]

I do have to say though, Sev, that if dex to assassinate goes live a lot of assassins are going to be TRing/ETRing/LRing into dex based. So it would be a very bad idea to remove dex to assassinate once it goes live if it is determined to be OP. Please be certain that this is what you all want before implementing this change, because it's definitely not something which should be taken back.

^^^Very much this^^^

Changing enhancements is one thing, they can be redone at any time. Changing something this integral to a build(stat choices) is bad enough, but changing it, letting people reincarnate to use it, and then taking it away...

[slarden]

These are good points. We will watch for these things. That doublestrike might need to change to be staff specific.

(As an aside, tumbling every 12 seconds will tank your DPS pretty hard.)

Sev~

These type of comments are a bit frustrating. You just made lethality weapon-neutral so acrobats or mechanics can benefit. Why do you keep talking about nerfing things that help assassins.

Dex build is the only way to go now and we all accepted that and will have to change our builds. At least let us benefit from the change instead of forcing us all to respec and then nerfing anything that can possibly help us.

Assassin is a great secondary tree for mechanics and acrobats. Mechanic sucks for assassins. At least leave us with synergies in one of the rogue trees.

[bbqzor]

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (depending on weapon). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.

Does this affect non-rogue sneak damage sources? Like ring of avithoul or the ninja spy or halfling, etc. As in, global change, or JUST to rogue-class-based sneak dice.

Lethality - (Removed all old functionality.) While wearing light or cloth armor you gain +1 Insight bonus to critical damage multiplier to any weapon you are wielding.

Sigh. Yes, its an improvement. Just a boring one that corners your legitimate weapon choices.

Poison Strikes - a new Assassin's Mark now refreshes the duration of an existing mark.

Needed functionality, ty.

Stealthy - Movement speed during stealth is increased to +25/+50/+75. Previous: +20/+35/+50%

Needed functionality, ty.

Shadow Dagger - the saving throw is now 10/14/18 + Rogue Level + the greater of Intelligence or Dexterity bonus. Damage now scales with 400% of Melee Power. Previous: the saving throw was 10/14/18 + half Rogue level + Intelligence bonus, and damage scaling was 200%.

I am extremely skeptical of this.... the DC is now basically parallel to assassinate. Except assassinate kills a mob outright and this only lands a blind condition. By comparison, Flashbang in monk is similar but has an area of effect AND dazes. It is entirely likely this will need to be changed to have a quicker cooldown, or to not break stealth when used, or some other mechanic to make it appealing. Its not dps no matter how much it scales, and while it may land now its an inferior choice to use in terms of economy of play (which is up from useless, but still inferior).

Execute - Extra damage now scales with 400% Melee Power. Previous: 200%

Would have preferred to see the hp threshold raised to 35%. Its pretty easy to eyeball 1/3rd of a bar. But when exactly it goes under 30% is a little harder. Being kinder on triggering it might be more useful than just more damage. Maybe you can consider that as an option.

Assassinate - the saving throw is now 10 + Rogue Level + the greater of Intelligence or Dexterity bonus + bonuses to Assassinate. Previous: the saving throw used 10 + Rogue level + Intelligence bonus + bonuses to Assassinate.

Sigh. Im in the "allow dex" camp, but doing it like this maybe isnt the best way. At this point players need assurances that any future work here wont remove the option, before they all run off and retool around dex. After the other thread, it boils down to Int basically eating a feat, and I agree there should be some recognition of that tax.

Measure the Foe - now gains 6 Melee Power per stack. Previous: 4 Melee Power per stack

More micro to deal with. Would have preferred to see the gains deferred to another ability rather than putting even more pressure on what is already a heavy requirement.

Deadly Strikes - now adds +10 damage against enemies with an Assassin's Mark. Previous: +5

Well, guess this is one way to balance the actual poison attacks having junk save formulas. Side note, maybe you can un-junk their save formulas.

The display is unchanged. When we looked into it I believe there were issues showing the cooldown and charges at the same time? I'd have to check our notes.

Negative. There are like tons of abilities which do both, from blitz to zeal to blood and radiance and so on. There is absolutely no reason why this cannot be done when it already exists. It needs to be there, its a massive QoL issue. Especially with the above change. I mean thats like 30 melee power riding on this one thing... a whole epic destiny worth. The functionality needs to be 100% crystal clear to players, period.

........

Overall, not impressed. A few changes like sneak speed and timer overlap needed to be done, and the other changes mostly focused on more damage and not better functioning abilities (save shadow dagger, which is now kind of a weak flash bang, which itself doesnt scale too well... making test results not optimistic). The inclusion of dex is something that could be good in the end, but needed more finishing touches to really work rather than just a flat inclusion. I hope there is another pass coming, still rough edges that need to be worked on.

And... we going to see any U25 loot reworks? Assassins kiss specifically could use some adjustments (not in dps, but in the utility it offers a user trying to wield it). Is that still in process already or something.

[slarden]

I do have to say though, Sev, that if dex to assassinate goes live a lot of assassins are going to be TRing/ETRing/LRing into dex based. So it would be a very bad idea to remove dex to assassinate once it goes live if it is determined to be OP. Please be certain that this is what you all want before implementing this change, because it's definitely not something which should be taken back.

Yes and this also goes to nerfing things in the acrobat tree that help rogues. We mentioned ALL these things already before the devs decided to make this change. It was crystal clear dex is better to anyone that understands assassin.

As for constantly changing rogue after the next update. If you are going to cut off my hand please just get it over with. Don't do it one finger at a time.

There is no reason to stay int. People are going to etr at a minimum to respec. Some will heroic or iconic TR if there race doesn't line up with the new dex assassin. Just let it be and let us move on. Don't turn this into another divine grace nerf where it's looming over our head in the known issues list for nearly a year but never changed, but always something we have to think about.

[redoubt]

Intelligence builds have a large advantage because they can make the best use of Know the Angles which itself is a large DPS boost. In addition, Intelligence builds get more skill points to play with which can actually be an issue for Dexterity rogues who wants stealth skills, bluff, and still be able to keep up all the trap skills.

Sev~

1. DD
2. OL
3. Search
4. Spot
5. Hide
6. Move Silen
7. UMD

a rogue can max ALL of these with a starting INT of 8.... If you also want bluff, start with a 10 INT.

What skill advantage are we really talking about? The rest are fluff...

[redoubt]

These are good points. We will watch for these things. That doublestrike might need to change to be staff specific.

(As an aside, tumbling every 12 seconds will tank your DPS pretty hard.)

Sev~

I'm already dropping to sneak for a second to reset the MTF timer. So now it will be, sneak, tumble attack.... repeat.

Even with threat reduction, I tend to move around a lot and make sure I'm targeting mobs that other people have already took a chunk out of. This maximizes my damage by ensuring that I get sneak attack damage as close to 100% of the time as possible and I also maximize the amount of time I spend deep into "sense weakness.". Now I will just hold the shift key when I move targets.

CThru, what do you think about picking up weapon finesse when we drop insightful reflexes? Think it is worth it to boost up light maces for blunt DR? Bows will take a small hit in the damage department not having strategic combat, but you still get dex to hit and I was only using them occasionally anyway.

[CThruTheEgo]

Yes and this also goes to nerfing things in the acrobat tree that help rogues. We mentioned ALL these things already before the devs decided to make this change. It was crystal clear dex is better to anyone that understands assassin.

As for constantly changing rogue after the next update. If you are going to cut off my hand please just get it over with. Don't do it one finger at a time.

There is no reason to stay int. People are going to etr at a minimum to respec. Some will heroic or iconic TR if there race doesn't line up with the new dex assassin. Just let it be and let us move on. Don't turn this into another divine grace nerf where it's looming over our head in the known issues list for nearly a year but never changed, but always something we have to think about.

Agreed and very well said. The discussion has been long, and the synergies have all been pointed out. If you make this change go live, make whatever "adjustments" you think is appropriate before it goes live. It's just bad form to give us the incentive to make the switch and then take that incentive away. That just leads to unhappy customers. If you need more time to think through what adjustments need to be made before implementing dex to assassinate, then by all means please take that time.

[Jetrule]

Even without the 20% doublestrike from cartwheel charge, there is just too much synergy with dex based and the acrobat tree. Whatever gains an int based assassin could get by investing in harper, it won't be far enough ahead to outweigh the defensive advantages of a dex based investing in acrobat. Shadow dodge is a huge part of this, but so is no mercy, and improved defensive roll. A dex based that does not invest 31 into acrobat for cartwheel charge would simply invest more into know the angles (and, as someone pointed out above, would still only be about 5-7 additional damage behind an int based) and possibly melee power from harper, both of which would merely close the dps gap between int and dex based and put dex based further ahead overall.

Dex to assassinate really does kill int based assassins. I don't care either way to be honest. I'm just pointing out the reality of it. If we get dex based, I'll be happy to start over from level 1 so I can enjoy these changes through the entirety of the game.

Int based still has superior synergy with mechanic and shadow dancer. All trap dcs., and much higher search and disable. Dodge and other defensive advantages are very key though.. A powerful ranged option on a assassin is also very tempting as well.

What I would recommend is assinate dc be int modifier + all as is now. Or dex modifier-5

[CThruTheEgo]

Well, guess this is one way to balance the actual poison attacks having junk save formulas. Side note, maybe you can un-junk their save formulas.

Oh yeah, forgot about this. Are the poison saves going to be fixed Sev? They are currently worthless and are effectively a 2 AP sink to unlock the benefits of assassin's mark.

[Thar]

It didn't work on anything with more than 1000 hit points.

Sev~

which is everything epic. that doesn't scale well.

[redoubt]

Int based still has superior synergy with mechanic and shadow dancer. All trap dcs., and much higher search and disable. Dodge and other defensive advantages are very key though.. A powerful ranged option on a assassin is also very tempting as well.

What I would recommend is assinate dc be int modifier + all as is now. Or dex modifier-5

For example, I'll likely swap from Shadar-kai back to drow. Putting 31 into acrobat and giving up shadow jaunt.

Start
18 INT
18 DEX
16 CON (I think this is right, but going from memory.)

+7 levelups
+4 enhancements
Dex will be 11 points higher than INT. If we compared to a Harper INT build that took 5 INT in enhancements and started at 20 INT, then you have a spread of 14 points. This is +7 to INT skills. Search and DD.

Up through level 25 I have been getting critical successes on rolls under 15, so far I don't need those 7 points. I just need to not blow up traps. I don't even mind if I fail a uber elite trap and have to roll again as long as it doesn't explode.

[Jetrule]

1. DD
2. OL
3. Search
4. Spot
5. Hide
6. Move Silen
7. UMD

a rogue can max ALL of these with a starting INT of 8.... If you also want bluff, start with a 10 INT.

What skill advantage are we really talking about? The rest are fluff...

Jump for overcoming sneak penalty. Tumble if you want cartwheel charge. Heal for more effective cocoons. diplomacy for quests and agro management. Are less fluffy than swim, haggle, concentration (to scroll cast with a d.o.t. affecting you), and listen that some int rogues take.

[redoubt]

Jump for overcoming sneak penalty. Tumble if you want cartwheel charge. Heal for more effective cocoons. diplomacy for quests and agro management. Are less fluffy than swim, haggle, concentration (to scroll cast with a d.o.t. affecting you), and listen that some int rogues take.

Jump, start with 12
Tumble, put in 1 point at creation. You don't need more than that.
Heal, +2 INT tome. 11 points of heal max.
concentration is worthless.

People can take ANY skills they want and find uses for them. But for the lead developer to claim that extra skill points are an advantage equal to increases in DPS and/or survivability is ridiculous. And while those may not be his exact words, he has implied multiple times that the "utility" of rogues is why we will NOT get improved survivability.

[slarden]

Jump for overcoming sneak penalty. Tumble if you want cartwheel charge. Heal for more effective cocoons. diplomacy for quests and agro management. Are less fluffy than swim, haggle, concentration (to scroll cast with a d.o.t. affecting you), and listen that some int rogues take.

The bottom line is that I won't lose anything I actually use. I get all the skills I need with either a dex or an int build. Skill checks are a non-issue. All that will change is the margin by which I am no "no fail".

It isn't like the dex vs. int decision is a debate-worthy subject. Dex wins hands down and this was known to be the case before this change was made. It's a proxy buff to assassins since dex builds are better than int builds.

[FlaviusMaximus]

I don't know about Mechanics, but on a pure Acrobat, I doubt very many builds will have enough points to get Lethality. On a pure Acrobat, at least 40 points will be spent in the Acrobat tree (if not more) and 8 AP in the Mechanic tree for the Wand and Scroll Mastery (aka the only extra Heals for Rogues in their trees). That leaves 32 points to spend and Lethality needs 30 points. The point spread for Acrobats is just too tight for me too see this being an issue on a pure Acrobat, much less splashed Acrobats.

So there would be enough AP in the example given, which includes an unneeded 8 AP set aside for scroll mastery, but people are going to pass on a gigantic DPS boost? Not happening.

Holy mother of rogues, you are right, CThru. Basically Assassins and TAs will share 90% AP distribution now, that sounds extremely varied and interesting.

The "pure" class lobbyists have been hard at work. Crit range/multiplier improvements are now put into late cores instead of Tier 5s, and with each new overhaul, there are fewer and fewer reasons to combine classes. I'm glad late core abilities are being improved, but not to this degree. We are losing far more options than we gain when the late core abilities are so OP. We lose the multiclassing option and even the option of distributing AP creatively when multiple trees within the same class have extremely powerful late core abilities that work so well together.

If it becomes an issue we can make adjustments, like making the acrobat doublestrike be staff only.

This would work. I also recommend making the +1 insightful crit multiplier in Assassin work with SWF and TWF only or only with daggers and kukris. It's one thing to lose out on multiclassing options. It's another to lose out on AP distribution options also, which is what would happen here if there are no adjustments to how the late core abilities function.