Rogue - Assassin Changes

[redoubt]

I will take it especially if assassin. That is a trade off..better bit more dps or bit more survivability, your choice.

As you said melee take more damage then my ranged mech...so it will be more valuable on a assassin for me than any ranged build.

I don't know what you guys are using for healing on EE other than cocoon if scroll is not an option. Happen to me that lots of time cocoon alone is not enough and I have all the heal amp stuff and 300+ positive spell power.

Just saying, I'm not here to fight about thtat

My current spend is:

Shadar Kai 7 (shadow jaunt)
Assassin 43
acrobat 3 (fast movement)
harper 27

I'm not sure what I would drop to go and spend 8 points in mechanic. Even more so when people talk about traps as beneficial to assassins. I have no idea how those people pull of getting the trap mastery stuff and being good at melee.

[slarden]

I will take it especially if assassin. That is a trade off..better bit more dps or bit more survivability, your choice.

As you said melee take more damage then my ranged mech...so it will be more valuable on a assassin for me than any ranged build.

I don't know what you guys are using for healing on EE other than cocoon if scroll is not an option. Happen to me that lots of time cocoon alone is not enough and I have all the heal amp stuff and 300+ positive spell power.

Just saying, I'm not here to fight about thtat

I tend to rely on other tools besides scroll healing in dangerous situations It is my felling that damage prevented is more efficient than damage taken and healed.

- 12x greensteel displacement clickies
- Eternal flask of displacement
- Daunting roar if mob is too big
- Meld into Darkness (over 100% dodge)
- Improved Uncanny Dodge

Still my biggest problem is that one big megacrit from a champion which neither damage prevention or healing eliminates the issue entirely because I am dead from one hit and I can't avoid all damage 100% of the time. My best solution there is a party-member with res scrolls.

The other issue is what do I give up to take wand and scroll mastery since assassins typically have a deep investment in harper and the assassin tree. I would either have to give up intelligence or possibly my investment in acrobat for fast movement and threat reduction.

If I was going to invest in the mechanic tree I think it would be for web traps and not wand and scroll mastery. Although realistically I have no interest in farming magical trap parts to keep that up.

Just my opinion as an assassin. Your perspective as a mechanic may be different.

[Vanhooger]

I tend to rely on other tools besides scroll healing in dangerous situations It is my felling that damage prevented is more efficient than damage taken and healed.

- 12x greensteel displacement clickies
- Eternal flask of displacement
- Daunting roar if mob is too big
- Meld into Darkness (over 100% dodge)
- Improved Uncanny Dodge (changes my "to be hit" % to approximately 6.9%)

The other issue is what do I give up to take wand and scroll mastery since assassins typically have a deep investment in harper and the assassin tree. I would either have to give up intelligence or possibly my investment in acrobat for fast movement and threat reduction.

If I was going to invest in the mechanic tree I think it would be for more web traps and not wand and scroll mastery.

Just my opinion as an assassin. Your perspective as a mechanic my be different.

Sure dude, anyone can take a different approach, that's why I love ddo.

Some issue I had:

As you already know, displacment it's not that effective as it used to be, champion with true see.

All the dodge stuff is very cool but doesn't last long with longish cooldown.

Can't say about daunting roar, never used it, is it's dc working well on high lvl ee content? If yes I will be trying it.

The biggest issue I am facing is spike damage, just to mention some Toee champ & red named.

If you get hit 2 time in a row you basically dead, but well you all know that.

[slarden]

All the dodge stuff is very cool but doesn't last long with longish cooldown.

Can't say about daunting roar, never used it, is it's dc working well on high lvl ee content? If yes I will be trying it.

Daunting Roar DC is from Draconic Tier 3. It is an AOE paralyze and despair effect for 15 seconds with a DC of 20 + half level + higher of int/cha modifier against a will save. For my assassin that is 63 and it works good in EE.

Between Daunting Roar, Meld into the Darkness and Improved Uncanny Dodge I get 50 seconds of protection out of 2 minutes which does leave you exposed alot if you are just rotating through.

That is why my approach is to try not to get in over my head. If I do get in over my head because of my mistake or random party actions I use my tools as an escape button. Sometimes that approach means under-utilizing the tools. Also balanced attacks gives you some passive cc procs, but that won't help you when you are in trouble.

[Grace_ana]

I take wand and scroll mastery on my assassin; a lot of rogues do. It's easier to fit in with the recent changes because some things now cost less. I think I have 41 in assassin, 15 in halfling, 13 in harper, 3 in TA, and 8 in mech. It doesn't really hurt my dps at all, but it does help my survivability most of the time. I don't want to have to toss two scrolls for every one I throw now. It would make failing due to interruption that much more frustrating and deadly as well.

[CThruTheEgo]

I will take it especially if assassin. That is a trade off..better bit more dps or bit more survivability, your choice.

As you said melee take more damage then my ranged mech...so it will be more valuable on a assassin for me than any ranged build.

I don't know what you guys are using for healing on EE other than cocoon if scroll is not an option. Happen to me that lots of time cocoon alone is not enough and I have all the heal amp stuff and 300+ positive spell power.

It's not that heal scrolls are completely useless in EE, it's that they are a poor self healing option on a melee in EE, arguably the worst realistic self healing option. Cocoon is usually enough, but not always. This is when it's nice to have heal scrolls as a backup option. But they are a poor primary option. Agro management plays a crucial role in ensuring that cocoon is adequate enough.

It makes perfect sense that you would take wand and scroll mastery on a mechanic for reasons already mentioned. It makes a lot less sense to take it on an assassin. And the cost on an assassin is much higher than the cost on a mechanic, so this is yet another disadvantage for assassins and further reduces the "utility" of this option.

I do not take wand and scroll mastery on my assassin but I do use scrolls, although only as a backup when cocoon is not enough.

[Severlin]

We have completed our testing, comparing the DPS of Assassin in heroic and epic content versus a variety of top end builds. We have some changes to improved its performance.

Rogue

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (depending on weapon). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.

Rogue - Assassin

Innate Abilities

Lethality - (Removed all old functionality.) While wearing light or cloth armor you gain +1 Insight bonus to critical damage multiplier to any weapon you are wielding.


Tier One

Poison Strikes - a new Assassin's Mark now refreshes the duration of an existing mark.

Stealthy - Movement speed during stealth is increased to +25/+50/+75. Previous: +20/+35/+50%

Tier Three

Shadow Dagger - the saving throw is now 10/14/18 + Rogue Level + the greater of Intelligence or Dexterity bonus. Damage now scales with 400% of Melee Power. Previous: the saving throw was 10/14/18 + half Rogue level + Intelligence bonus, and damage scaling was 200%.


Tier Four

Execute - Extra damage now scales with 400% Melee Power. Previous: 200%


Tier Five

Assassinate - the saving throw is now 10 + Rogue Level + the greater of Intelligence or Dexterity bonus + bonuses to Assassinate. Previous: the saving throw used 10 + Rogue level + Intelligence bonus + bonuses to Assassinate.

Measure the Foe - now gains 6 Melee Power per stack. Previous: 4 Melee Power per stack

Deadly Strikes - now adds +10 damage against enemies with an Assassin's Mark. Previous: +5

Sev~

[Munkenmo]

We have completed our testing, comparing the DPS of Assassin in heroic and epic content versus a variety of top end builds. We have some changes to improved its performance.

Rogue

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (whichever is higher). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.

Rogue - Assassin

Innate Abilities

Lethality - (Removed all old functionality.) While wearing light or cloth armor you gain +1 Insight bonus to critical damage multiplier to any weapon you are wielding.


Tier One

Poison Strikes - a new Assassin's Mark now refreshes the duration of an existing mark.

Stealthy - Movement speed during stealth is increased to +25/+50/+75. Previous: +20/+35/+50%

Tier Three

Shadow Dagger - the saving throw is now 10/14/18 + Rogue Level + the greater of Intelligence or Dexterity bonus. Damage now scales with 400% of Melee Power. Previous: the saving throw was 10/14/18 + half Rogue level + Intelligence bonus, and damage scaling was 200%.


Tier Four

Execute - Extra damage now scales with 400% Melee Power. Previous: 200%


Tier Five

Assassinate - the saving throw is now 10 + Rogue Level + the greater of Intelligence or Dexterity bonus + bonuses to Assassinate. Previous: the saving throw used 10 + Rogue level + Intelligence bonus + bonuses to Assassinate.

Measure the Foe - now gains 6 Melee Power per stack. Previous: 4 Melee Power per stack

Deadly Strikes - now adds +10 damage against enemies with an Assassin's Mark. Previous: +5

Sev~

Could you please add this into the OP too?

[slarden]

We have completed our testing, comparing the DPS of Assassin in heroic and epic content versus a variety of top end builds. We have some changes to improved its performance.

Rogue

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (depending on weapon). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.

Rogue - Assassin

Innate Abilities

Lethality - (Removed all old functionality.) While wearing light or cloth armor you gain +1 Insight bonus to critical damage multiplier to any weapon you are wielding.


Tier One

Poison Strikes - a new Assassin's Mark now refreshes the duration of an existing mark.

Stealthy - Movement speed during stealth is increased to +25/+50/+75. Previous: +20/+35/+50%

Tier Three

Shadow Dagger - the saving throw is now 10/14/18 + Rogue Level + the greater of Intelligence or Dexterity bonus. Damage now scales with 400% of Melee Power. Previous: the saving throw was 10/14/18 + half Rogue level + Intelligence bonus, and damage scaling was 200%.


Tier Four

Execute - Extra damage now scales with 400% Melee Power. Previous: 200%


Tier Five

Assassinate - the saving throw is now 10 + Rogue Level + the greater of Intelligence or Dexterity bonus + bonuses to Assassinate. Previous: the saving throw used 10 + Rogue level + Intelligence bonus + bonuses to Assassinate.

Measure the Foe - now gains 6 Melee Power per stack. Previous: 4 Melee Power per stack

Deadly Strikes - now adds +10 damage against enemies with an Assassin's Mark. Previous: +5

Sev~

You are adding dexterity as an assassinate stat without any balancing for int builds? Just that change? That effectively changes assassins to dex builds as int builds are vastly inferior now.

The changes to lethality, measure the foe, deadly strikes and stealthy are much appreciated.

When you say you removed the old functionality I hope the +5 melee power still remains.

[Qhualor]

Lethality - (Removed all old functionality.) While wearing light or cloth armor you gain +1 Insight bonus to critical damage multiplier to any weapon you are wielding.Sev~

what does damage have to do with what type of armor you are wearing? i know its for incentive to thematically wear armor, but this i have the same issue the way this is done as i did with barb. at least with barb it can sort of make sense with increased PRR, but tacking on melee power doesn't actually address the armor issues. adding crit damage while wearing light or cloth for rogues is the same situation.

[ToastyFred]

We have completed our testing, comparing the DPS of Assassin in heroic and epic content versus a variety of top end builds. We have some changes to improved its performance.

Rogue

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (depending on weapon). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.

Rogue - Assassin

Innate Abilities

Lethality - (Removed all old functionality.) While wearing light or cloth armor you gain +1 Insight bonus to critical damage multiplier to any weapon you are wielding.


Tier One

Poison Strikes - a new Assassin's Mark now refreshes the duration of an existing mark.

Stealthy - Movement speed during stealth is increased to +25/+50/+75. Previous: +20/+35/+50%

Tier Three

Shadow Dagger - the saving throw is now 10/14/18 + Rogue Level + the greater of Intelligence or Dexterity bonus. Damage now scales with 400% of Melee Power. Previous: the saving throw was 10/14/18 + half Rogue level + Intelligence bonus, and damage scaling was 200%.


Tier Four

Execute - Extra damage now scales with 400% Melee Power. Previous: 200%


Tier Five

Assassinate - the saving throw is now 10 + Rogue Level + the greater of Intelligence or Dexterity bonus + bonuses to Assassinate. Previous: the saving throw used 10 + Rogue level + Intelligence bonus + bonuses to Assassinate.

Measure the Foe - now gains 6 Melee Power per stack. Previous: 4 Melee Power per stack

Deadly Strikes - now adds +10 damage against enemies with an Assassin's Mark. Previous: +5

Sev~

Wow. My assassin will be happy!

[CThruTheEgo]

...major changes...

Wow. Optimism prevails. This is the degree of change that I was expecting from the rogue pass. Overall, that will be significant boost to damage. This is the kind of dps boost that assassins needed to offset their weak defenses. Very nice job.

~I love the 150% melee power applied to sneak attack.
~I'm glad that lethality is now useful. That is a solid core ability now.
~Thanks for upping sneak speed. I'll be anxious to try this out to see how I keep up in a group.
~I'd rather dex to assassinate not have been added, but this just means I now have a reason to TR my assassin and run the game again with the changes. No reason to go int based anymore. It's a good thing I just hit 5k favor.

Questions:
~Is this final now? Or do you still want feedback on these changes?
~Any estimate as to when these changes will go live?
~Will the timer on measure the foe be displayed on the icon in the buff bar? If not, can we get this extended to 12 seconds to match assassinate so we have some way of keeping track of it? If neither of those, can we get it changed to drop 1 stack every 6 seconds? The increased melee power provides even more reason to keep this buff up continuously, but without at least one of these changes, it will simply remain a mechanic which detracts from the enjoyability of the build.

Thanks for the great changes Sev. I'm glad we were not forgotten about.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (depending on weapon). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.

Good move!

Lethality - (Removed all old functionality.) While wearing light or cloth armor you gain +1 Insight bonus to critical damage multiplier to any weapon you are wielding.
[/COLOR]Sev~

Huh. So this will be attainable for q-staff and xbow builds as well and will be stacking with their core/tier 5 crit bonuses. I'm a bit concerned about this. I do like that Assassins will have better crit profiles than Paladins and Bards with kukris and daggers. That seems right.

You are adding dexterity as an assassinate stat without any balancing for int builds? Just that change? That effectively changes assassins to dex builds as int builds are vastly inferior now.

As Slarden has suggested before iirc, Insightful Reflexes needs to be added as a Rogue core ability at the very least. Int to hit and damage in the cores as well, if only to save the 4 AP that needs to be spent past Know the Angles. AP is precious.

[Severlin]

You are adding dexterity as an assassinate stat without any balancing for int builds? Just that change? That effectively changes assassins to dex builds as int builds are vastly inferior now.

The changes to lethality, measure the foe, deadly strikes and stealthy are much appreciated.

Intelligence builds have a large advantage because they can make the best use of Know the Angles which itself is a large DPS boost. In addition, Intelligence builds get more skill points to play with which can actually be an issue for Dexterity rogues who wants stealth skills, bluff, and still be able to keep up all the trap skills.

Sev~

[brzytki]

Hehe, Sev, i was about to post here before i went to bed about another day passing by without any news but you beat me to the punch with your update.

We have completed our testing, comparing the DPS of Assassin in heroic and epic content versus a variety of top end builds. We have some changes to improved its performance.

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (depending on weapon). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.

I'm glad you changed it, it gives an incentive to get more MP and SA dice which i think is a better approach than raw damage.

Lethality - (Removed all old functionality.) While wearing light or cloth armor you gain +1 Insight bonus to critical damage multiplier to any weapon you are wielding.

I won't deny it, i'll miss the vorpal. I'd rather you upped the damage and HP limit on it than give +1 crit multi but i guess we can't have all things that we want.

Poison Strikes - a new Assassin's Mark now refreshes the duration of an existing mark.

Good that you remembered about it.

Stealthy - Movement speed during stealth is increased to +25/+50/+75. Previous: +20/+35/+50%

Here is where i'm really happy you listened to our feedback.

Shadow Dagger - the saving throw is now 10/14/18 + Rogue Level + the greater of Intelligence or Dexterity bonus. Damage now scales with 400% of Melee Power. Previous: the saving throw was 10/14/18 + half Rogue level + Intelligence bonus, and damage scaling was 200%.

Hmm, it's a second time it's been buffed, i'd have to play with it to see if it's worth it.

Execute - Extra damage now scales with 400% Melee Power. Previous: 200%

More damage is always good. I like it.

Assassinate - the saving throw is now 10 + Rogue Level + the greater of Intelligence or Dexterity bonus + bonuses to Assassinate. Previous: the saving throw used 10 + Rogue level + Intelligence bonus + bonuses to Assassinate.

That's a pretty big game-changer. I know i'll be switching to DEX.

Measure the Foe - now gains 6 Melee Power per stack. Previous: 4 Melee Power per stack

I'd rather have CThru's idea implemented but i understand your position here - you don't want it to be an easily sustainable buff but a short term burst-from-the-sneak buff. Still, please add a timer to it.

Deadly Strikes - now adds +10 damage against enemies with an Assassin's Mark. Previous: +5

That makes me change my mind and i'll be investing in Poisons now.

A couple of questions, will it be possible to test it on Lama before it goes live? When will it go live?

[Severlin]

what does damage have to do with what type of armor you are wearing? i know its for incentive to thematically wear armor, but this i have the same issue the way this is done as i did with barb. at least with barb it can sort of make sense with increased PRR, but tacking on melee power doesn't actually address the armor issues. adding crit damage while wearing light or cloth for rogues is the same situation.

The Rogue's fighting style favors speed and precision to increase their chance to deliver critical strikes. Armor that is making you slow and clumsy is bad for the type of fighting style that Lethality is supposed to portray.

Sev~

[UurlockYgmeov]

Sev - I like what I see.

[Severlin]

Questions:
~Is this final now? Or do you still want feedback on these changes?
~Any estimate as to when these changes will go live?
~Will the timer on measure the foe be displayed on the icon in the buff bar? If not, can we get this extended to 12 seconds to match assassinate so we have some way of keeping track of it? If neither of those, can we get it changed to drop 1 stack every 6 seconds? The increased melee power provides even more reason to keep this buff up continuously, but without at least one of these changes, it will simply remain a mechanic which detracts from the enjoyability of the build.

Thanks for the great changes Sev. I'm glad we were not forgotten about.

~ Final for the next build, open to feedback after that. I would have loved to have a Lamannia testing phase, but doing that for an interim update isn't in the cards.

~ Soon.

~ The display is unchanged. When we looked into it I believe there were issues showing the cooldown and charges at the same time? I'd have to check our notes.

Sev~

[slarden]

Intelligence builds have a large advantage because they can make the best use of Know the Angles which itself is a large DPS boost. In addition, Intelligence builds get more skill points to play with which can actually be an issue for Dexterity rogues who wants stealth skills, bluff, and still be able to keep up all the trap skills.

Sev~

KTA difference is about 5-6 damage since it's only half modifier and dex builds will still take kta since they still get a nice damage boost and there is other low hanging fruit (difference is level ups, enhancements ED points, feats divided by 4 basically). No mercy is actually a much better dps boost overall (everything but bosses) than the 5-6 damage you are losing, but I'll take it. I used no mercy before the harper tree and liked it.

The skill points are meaningless. I no longer need to spend as much time putting points into things I don't need when leveling up and will still have all the skills I need and the rogue skills will be no fail.

I have no problem with it really - i will just switch to a dex build, but I don't agree with your argument that int has advantages equal to dex. You basically just played king maker and now I have to switch my build or settle for being less than optimal. Which is fine - things change.

While I disagree with playing kingmaker and making dex builds better than int builds for a build that has always been int-based, I appreciate the overall buff to assassins.

[Saekee]

We have completed our testing, comparing the DPS of Assassin in heroic and epic content versus a variety of top end builds. We have some changes to improved its performance.

RogueSev~

wow huge buff--just what was being hoped for. Finally!