Rogue - Assassin Changes

[redoubt]

^This. My biggest concern is that the problems with Ghallanda last week diverted all attention and resources to deal with them (and rightly so), now they have to start focusing on the next update which may include both epic Shav and warlock, and the rogue revamp "polishing" will simply get marginalized. I fear we will get a couple of minor tweaks, none of which will address any of the issues which were brought up from the very beginning of this thread and then repeated after the changes went live. If the real issues are actually addressed, I will be pleasantly surprised. I'm usually optimistic, but I'm also a realist.

So what's the word Sev? Are we going to hear about any of the potential further changes before they go live so we can offer our feedback?

This.

This is why we did not want the update at all unless is was finished. Things happen, the extra time to finish the rogue pass is spent fixing a server (which needed to be done) and then they are stuck to the pre-decided schedule....

[brzytki]

I am curious. Why do you think rogues are ahead of fighters on self-healing?

Because of UMD being a class skill and W&SM.

[Ayseifn]

The current drought of comments from devs on what's going to be done to "finish" the rogue pass makes me think that there may be a more sweeping change in the works. As you note, it would be a proxy buff and would require far fewer resources to implement than many of the other suggestions (some very good) put forth in this thread.

Here is the last thing Sev said on the issue (which is just about the only thing he's said about the rogue follow-up at all at this point):


* Emphasis mine.

Remember the barb follow up thread? We'll probably get something similar to that, where I think the only change that happened was Storms Eye got nerfed.

TL;DR version:
Assassins before the revamp had
1) the worst defenses of any melee
2) the second worst self healing of any melee (only ahead of fighters)
3) dps far behind the revamped classes (each of which got a huge boost in both offense and defense)

Assassins after the revamp have
1) the worst defenses of any melee
2) the second worst self healing of any melee (only ahead of fighters)
3) dps far behind the revamped classes (each of which got a huge boost in both offense and defense)

I notice very little difference in my assassin from before and after the revamp. What was the point of the revamp if nothing significant was going to change? Most people would prefer that defenses and self healing not be improved (at least not much) because that would alter the unique playstyle inherent in assassins. Most agree that their dps should be increased significantly in order to compensate for their weak defenses and self healing. And Sev has stated that "out of combat utility" (i.e. trapping and UMD) is being valued in the overall balance of the class, even though the general response from the community is that such utility has nowhere near the value to make up for the combat utility that assassins lack. And the last time Sev posted in this thread was a week and a half ago, so we're all wondering what the current news is for assassins.

I think that about sums it up.

Same thing for arobats, a few more AP to spend and enough dodge to make light armour/robes the better choice over heavy but still pretty much the same as before the revamp. This feels more like a Mechanic update than a rogue update.

[slarden]

Because of UMD being a class skill and W&SM.

I don't think fighters will have difficulty getting to a sufficient UMD. I am doubting too many end game assassins will take wand and scroll mastery especially if they twist in cocoon.

[redoubt]

I don't think fighters will have difficulty getting to a sufficient UMD. I am doubting too many end game assassins will take wand and scroll mastery especially if they twist in cocoon.

I do not.

I have 6/7 points in ShadarKai cores for shadow jaunt. Everything else in is Assassin and Harper.

[dunklezhan]

Was playing with a guildie last night who was on his assassin for the first time since the changes. He was loving it. And - Heroic L16 on hard anyway - assassinate was working brilliantly. At least judging by the amount of kill stealing going on, the filthy sneak.

[Candela90]

Was playing with a guildie last night who was on his assassin for the first time since the changes. He was loving it. And - Heroic L16 on hard anyway - assassinate was working brilliantly. At least judging by the amount of kill stealing going on, the filthy sneak.

Thats great, but rogue was almost always good in heroics. Problems start when you hit EEs. And then suddenly you're one of the worst classes. Not saying its impossible to pull it off - it is quite possible, but its tireding to see that everyone is better than you in everything : P.

[brzytki]

I don't think fighters will have difficulty getting to a sufficient UMD. I am doubting too many end game assassins will take wand and scroll mastery especially if they twist in cocoon.

True, i don't either but i'm pointing out the potential to have it. Fighters don't have that option.

[HuneyMunster]

I do not.

I have 6/7 points in ShadarKai cores for shadow jaunt. Everything else in is Assassin and Harper.

When Ive run a Shadar-Kai rogue Ive found that 1min Shadow Jaunt cd being too long. So always spend 2 more points for total of 9 to reduce it to 30secs. Having spent 9 you might as well take 2x Guile for 2 SA die for 2 ap for a total of 11.

41 in Assassin, 24 harper, 3 acrobat and 7-11 in racial leaves 1-5 points remaining which means w&sm is out for shadar-kai.

You could say you dont have to take shadow jaunt, but then whats the point of being int build shadar-kai?

[Aliss7]

I'm sure a day late and dollar short, but anyway:

Execute should be changed to a no-fail lethality strike.

Get rid of this percentage health gating mechanic. It's very annoying to gauge when the mob is at "30%" because you can't tell precisely. Back when you guys allowed gui theming, you could grab themes that put graduated tick marks on the health bars, which would help but that's not even possible now.

Bottomline, I'm saying this mechanic is not fun. Do not design mechanics that are not fun.

[CThruTheEgo]

As far as 1 and 2 go, I think they should really be combined into one category survivability for ranking purposes because they really go together.

Rogues are worse off than fighters overall. Fighters have essentially the exact same self-healing options that rogues have, but with a minor investment in the defender tree they have many more hp, much better PRR and MRR and evasion is nearly irrelevant now unless you need to disable traps where the trap boxes are in the trap itself.

I agree on both points. It is true, however, that rogues do have slightly better self healing potential due to UMD and wand and scroll mastery and so, for the purpose of being precise in my argument, I made the distinction and separated defenses into self healing and damage mitigation. I don't want someone to respond with something about how rogues don't have the worst self healing because fighters have no inherent method of self healing. But I also agree with your statement below that shows this "advantage" for rogues is so insignificant that it might as well not even exist. But for the sake of accuracy in the argument, rogues are second to last in self healing, behind only fighters. Generally, however, I agree that self healing is part of overall defenses and rogues are unquestionably far behind fighters in this regard.

I don't think fighters will have difficulty getting to a sufficient UMD. I am doubting too many end game assassins will take wand and scroll mastery especially if they twist in cocoon.

Agreed. I certainly won't be taking wand and scroll mastery. There's nothing in mechanic tier 1 that's really worth anything, so it's basically 5 points wasted just to unlock it. This means wand and scroll mastery effectively costs 8 AP to get, which is horrendous considering how ineffective scroll healing is at endgame, especially when you have a much more effective option in cocoon.

While it's true that fighters can now get a sufficient UMD thanks to 8 skill points from epic levels, because UMD is a class skill for rogues, they will be able to rely on scroll healing earlier. But since cocoon will be the go to method of self healing starting at level 20, this advantage for rogues really only lasts around 5 levels, give or take depending on gear availability. And to be honest, you can still get through those last 5ish heroic levels just fine without scrolls on any build without self healing. So UMD really is not an advantage to rogues, at least it's not one worth considering when examining overall class balance and I really hope that Sev and the dev team see this.

[redoubt]

I've been running in Shadow Dancer to test how the "rogue" destiny is working with the new assassin changes. In epic I've run mostly EH, with some EE thrown in.

1. Shadow charges seem to be more difficult to pick up than I remembered. Double assassinates are not routinely picking up two charges. I'm also seem lots of cases where I believe the target is marked and then dead within 10, but I do not pick up a charge. Lastly, didn't this used to stay charged on zone out?

2. MTF does not stack with shadow charges. Or more accurately, MTF does not raise maximum dex bonus and is therefore not helping if you have shadow charges.
-- FIX: MTF needs to raise both max dodge and max dex bonus.

3. Nimbleness is still broken, but don't bother with it unless you allow it to raise max dex and max dodge. See above. These are HUGE PRE and ED features and they don't work with each other.

4. The epic ward icon needs to look different than the deathward icon. I would also go as far as to say you could put the DW icon in the focus orb when we are in sneak, if applicable.

5. Right now there is nothing special about an assassin. Its a melee character with an instakill, but lots of melee have an instakill and casters have many of them. What about building a way for assassins to bypass deathward/deathblock on assassinate?

[CThruTheEgo]

1. Shadow charges seem to be more difficult to pick up than I remembered. Double assassinates are not routinely picking up two charges. I'm also seem lots of cases where I believe the target is marked and then dead within 10, but I do not pick up a charge.

I haven't noticed problems with this, but all that means is I haven't noticed one way or another. I'll test to confirm both of these when I get a chance.

Lastly, didn't this used to stay charged on zone out?

Shadow charges reset upon quest completion, just like everything else, but you do retain them otherwise. For example, going from an explorer into a quest, you should keep them. I can confirm that this has been working for me.

2. MTF does not stack with shadow charges. Or more accurately, MTF does not raise maximum dex bonus and is therefore not helping if you have shadow charges.
-- FIX: MTF needs to raise both max dodge and max dex bonus.

/signed

3. Nimbleness is still broken, but don't bother with it unless you allow it to raise max dex and max dodge. See above. These are HUGE PRE and ED features and they don't work with each other.

/signed

Since we are not getting an increase in damage mitigation, we should be getting a significant increase in damage avoidance. I got a grand total of 7% additional dodge from the revamp. That's not significant. The bonuses that were added don't matter because of the convoluted mechanics of max dex bonus, max dodge bonus, and dodge. Measure the foe, nimbleness, and untouchable should each increase all three. Otherwise they are effectively useless.

Also, the maximum number of shadow charges we gain, and can retain, is broken and has been for years. See this thread for detailed testing and more info. Please fix this.

4. The epic ward icon needs to look different than the deathward icon. I would also go as far as to say you could put the DW icon in the focus orb when we are in sneak, if applicable.

/signed

5. Right now there is nothing special about an assassin. Its a melee character with an instakill, but lots of melee have an instakill and casters have many of them. What about building a way for assassins to bypass deathward/deathblock on assassinate?

/signed

[HuneyMunster]

I've been running in Shadow Dancer to test how the "rogue" destiny is working with the new assassin changes. In epic I've run mostly EH, with some EE thrown in.

1. Shadow charges seem to be more difficult to pick up than I remembered. Double assassinates are not routinely picking up two charges. I'm also seem lots of cases where I believe the target is marked and then dead within 10, but I do not pick up a charge. Lastly, didn't this used to stay charged on zone out?

2. MTF does not stack with shadow charges. Or more accurately, MTF does not raise maximum dex bonus and is therefore not helping if you have shadow charges.
-- FIX: MTF needs to raise both max dodge and max dex bonus.

3. Nimbleness is still broken, but don't bother with it unless you allow it to raise max dex and max dodge. See above. These are HUGE PRE and ED features and they don't work with each other.

4. The epic ward icon needs to look different than the deathward icon. I would also go as far as to say you could put the DW icon in the focus orb when we are in sneak, if applicable.

5. Right now there is nothing special about an assassin. Its a melee character with an instakill, but lots of melee have an instakill and casters have many of them. What about building a way for assassins to bypass deathward/deathblock on assassinate?

1. You only lose charges if you rest or exit a dungeon after completion. I only checked grabbing charges in explorer then leaving to public area before entering quest. Though Im not running SD anymore as LD is so much stronger. Im losing 15 incorp and 3 dodge and 12 reflex, but I probably have about 30-50% more dps, 30prr and 120hp to compensate.

2. Especially without max points into lithe then more dodge you have the less useful the dodge becomes.

3. Its not something you should rely on to get your dodge high other than to top up your dodge.

4. Epic ward is confusing, but I now just check if there are 2 DW icons then dont attempt an assassination.

5. That something that could be added to shadowdancer.

[Vanhooger]

I'm a 20 pure mech but anyway I consider wand and scroll mastery a must have.

Sometime cocoon isn't enough (for EE) and as a pure rogue my sp are only 400+ and I need them for KTA as well.

Maybe you guys are all PRO player so you won't need it, but still useful for me.

Scroll hitting for 450-500 hp in EE helps me a lot.

[brzytki]

I'm a 20 pure mech but anyway I consider wand and scroll mastery a must have.

Sometime cocoon isn't enough (for EE) and as a pure rogue my sp are only 400+ and I need them for KTA as well.

Maybe you guys are all PRO player so you won't need it, but still useful for me.

Scroll hitting for 450-500 hp in EE helps me a lot.

Sure, on a mech it's fine but on a melee character scrolls aren't as useful.

[slarden]

I'm a 20 pure mech but anyway I consider wand and scroll mastery a must have.

Sometime cocoon isn't enough (for EE) and as a pure rogue my sp are only 400+ and I need them for KTA as well.

Maybe you guys are all PRO player so you won't need it, but still useful for me.

Scroll hitting for 450-500 hp in EE helps me a lot.

This is a thread about assassins. It would make sense that a mech build would take wand and scroll mastery in the mech tree.. Using scrolls also makes sense since you do damage from distance rather than melee as an assassin does. You will invest many points in the mech tree so the cost of Wand and Scroll mastery is 3 for you. I would have to spend 5 points I wouldn't otherwise spend to get to wand and scroll mastery so the net cost is 8 for me. It's too much considering what I have to give up and scroll healing is much less effective on a melee vs. a ranged character in EE.

[Vanhooger]

This is a thread about assassins. It would make sense that a mech build would take wand and scroll mastery in the mech tree.. Using scrolls also makes sense since you do damage from distance rather than melee as an assassin does. You will invest many points in the mech tree so the cost of Wand and Scroll mastery is 3 for you. I would have to spend 5 points I wouldn't otherwise spend to get to wand and scroll mastery so the net cost is 8 for me. It's too much considering what I have to give up and scroll healing is much less effective on a melee vs. a ranged character in EE.

I will take it especially if assassin. That is a trade off..better bit more dps or bit more survivability, your choice.

As you said melee take more damage then my ranged mech...so it will be more valuable on a assassin for me than any ranged build.

I don't know what you guys are using for healing on EE other than cocoon if scroll is not an option. Happen to me that lots of time cocoon alone is not enough and I have all the heal amp stuff and 300+ positive spell power.

Just saying, I'm not here to fight about thtat

[dualscissors]

I will take it especially if assassin. That is a trade off..better bit more dps or bit more survivability, your choice.

As you said melee take more damage then my ranged mech...so it will be more valuable on a assassin for me than any ranged build.

I don't know what you guys are using for healing on EE other than cocoon if scroll is not an option. Happen to me that lots of time cocoon alone is not enough and I have all the heal amp stuff and 300+ positive spell power.

I'm with you that Rejuv Cocoon often isn't enough. +150 temporary HPs and 2 second ticks at +80ish HPs can get you by if things are only a little hairy. If a tough mob is all over you or there are multiple attackers, archers, cleaves, etc. happening, this is where a squishy rogue needs more help - since PRR and AC are pretty low. As one option you can go for a quick drink of a SFP for +100 HPs x amp. On the other, Heal scrolls are going to be tricky to get off if a mob is on you like glue, but you can get more healing bang than a SFP if you don't get interrupted. But there is the signficant 8 AP buy-in with the scroll method. That's a heavy price for iffy reliability in melee.

[brzytki]

I don't know what you guys are using for healing on EE other than cocoon if scroll is not an option. Happen to me that lots of time cocoon alone is not enough and I have all the heal amp stuff and 300+ positive spell power.

Yup, that's why, if we still don't get any buff in survivability/healing department, i'll be trying a healing lore item in my next gear setup for crits on cocoon ticks. Best one i found is Gauntlets of Immortality, but the gear rearrangement is going to be a PITA since i have Imp Deception in my gloves slot. The other option is healing lore on the TF weapon but it's rather costly and replaces MF.