Rogue - Assassin Changes

[CThruTheEgo]

How are you getting 100 melee power?

24 epic levels
24 shadowdancer (18 dreadnaught)
6 twf
9 harper
20 assassin cores
20 measure the foe
103 total (97 in dreadnaught before blitz)

With overwhelming crit:

critical mastery: [ (3*3*0.2+3*4*0.1) * (100+100)/100 melee power]/3 AP=2.0 average damage per hit per AP

Forgot about OC. Good catch. Thank you. Updated my post.

I do wish I could take deflect arrows as a rogue special ability.

Seconded. An enhancement to increase the rate of deflection would also be nice.

[brzytki]

I didn't include deadly strikes because it won't apply to every mob, but it is still probably worth considering. I'll edit my post to include this:

deadly strikes: {[5(0.65) + 5(3)(0.2) + 5(4)(0.1)](100 + 100)/100 melee power]}/2 AP=8.25 average damage per hit per AP

I'd include Poison Strikes tax in it and divide it by 4 APs instead of 2 APs.

[CThruTheEgo]

- 10-12 on a reflex save ...snip... Your save goes down 50-60%

10-12 reflex save is nowhere near a 50-60% loss. It's more like 15%.

[CThruTheEgo]

I'd include Poison Strikes tax in it and divide it by 4 APs instead of 2 APs.

Yes and no. While poison strikes is a pre-req for deadly strikes, you might be taking poison strikes anyway for additional damage mitigation from weakening strikes. So you might have poison strikes whether you take deadly strikes or not. This is another reason I didn't initially include deadly strikes. It's a little more situationally complicated than the others. I'll include this possibility in my post though.

[CThruTheEgo]

You should be heal scrolling for almost 500. You should be hitting cocoon for 150+. What do you have to complain about exactly? Or do you want barb healing where you heal 10000000 hp every 1 second.

Scrolls are easily interruptable. You don't get healed from cocoon once the bonus hp are gone. If you get hit on EE while trying to heal yourself with either method, both of those will happen because of mob inflated damage and assassin's extremely low damage mitigation (the worst of any melee). So yeah, healing is weak on an assassin in EE content.

I'm not asking for more or better healing. I don't want more or better self healing. I only pointed it out as a reason why assassins should have better dps as a way to compensate for such weaknesses.

[slarden]

10-12 reflex save is nowhere near a 50-60% loss. It's more like 15%.

Saves are still on d20. Each 1 loss in save is exactly 5%

10=50%
11=55%
12=60%

[HuneyMunster]

Saves are still on d20. Each 1 loss in save is exactly 5%

10=50%
11=55%
12=60%

And Insightful Reflexes is far more important to have when your below 26-28 range. Did epic reincarnation and at 25 my reflex is currently 59 with 56 int, 7 res item and +6 from Unearthly Reactions. My Dex mod is 10 lower than my int(currently in DC destiny as did divine life to make up the prr I lost from armor changes). I would not like to be running 49 reflex save in ee content too much. At 28 more reflex was about 85 and would think about 70ish if I dumped Insightful Reflexes. There are some traps that have a save in high 90s and a few at 100 on ee so without IR would almost be a auto fail even though I have 3 Rogue past lifes and the Traps Sense feat.

[redoubt]

This is my take on the self healing aspect. Everybody (except barbs) can use cocoon, therefore everybody has self healing in epics.

Why can't barbs use cocoon?

24 epic levels
24 shadowdancer (18 dreadnaught)
6 twf
9 harper
20 assassin cores
20 measure the foe
103 total (97 in dreadnaught before blitz)

1. For me, getting the 9MP in harper takes away from getting anything acro and eliminates getting any trap making. Have you updated Hassan's post yet? I'd like to see your layout and your thoughts on the trade offs.

2. Are you finding the bonus from MTF consistent? I'm finding that with any group bigger than about 4, that I have difficulty getting back into sneak fast enough to keep it at max stacks.

[draven1]

Why can't barbs use cocoon?

Because rage blocks any spell casting, including cocoon.
Yes, you can dismiss rage when you need cocoon, but you know barbs are lazy
So, they insisted they needed unblockable & in-battle healing from auto-attack. Blood Strength from Ravager.

Blood Strength: Each time you land a hit there is a 12% chance you heal positive damage equal to your Barbarian level. Each time you kill an opponent you are healed for 20 hit points. This healing scales with 100% Melee Power.

It's obviously over-powered enhancement.

I think they should need to get out of the combat to heal, DPS-loss when you heal like every other classes.
& it should be temp-hp, not real hp.
Current barbs doesn't need to get out of the combat to heal. DPS & Heal at the same time, that's the problem.

[redoubt]

Because rage blocks any spell casting, including cocoon..

Got it. thanks.

[CThruTheEgo]

Saves are still on d20. Each 1 loss in save is exactly 5%

10=50%
11=55%
12=60%

Yes but a loss of 1 on a d20 only equals a 5% failure rate when you're within a range of 20 from the required save. Going from an 85 to 75 reflex save does not mean you will fail 50% more often. If anything, there are only a handful of quests/traps/mobs (e.g. EE 3BC, EE FTP) against which this loss is going to make a difference, and in some of those you won't be in the range to succeed even with an 85 reflex save. There's a huge jump in reflex save requirements where 65-70ish will be no fail in about 97% of the game and then a few places that require stupidly high numbers like 100+. There is very little content that falls between those two. So it could really be argued that insightful reflexes is not a must have even on an int build. I'd still take it, personally, but I also don't consider assassins feat starved anymore.

1. For me, getting the 9MP in harper takes away from getting anything acro and eliminates getting any trap making. Have you updated Hassan's post yet? I'd like to see your layout and your thoughts on the trade offs.

I've not updated it yet but probably will tomorrow. I'm pretty much set in my enhancements now (side note – apparently there is a limit on how many times you can reset your enhancements, I just thought the cost would keep going up but the reset button has ceased to light up for me lol). I'm also set on gear changes, although I have yet to acquire it all (e.g. Assassin's Kiss).

I've been running in dreadnaught to boost my dps but I really don't like it and think it's lame that this is what we must do to have competitive dps. I hope that further changes will make dreadnaught unnecessary so I can run in shadowdancer again. I almost want to run in shadowdancer just because it is more fun but then I feel like, why should having more fun with the build necessarily require me to gimp it? It's great that the extra DCs we got do not force assassins to be in shadowdancer anymore, but now we are forced to run in dreadnaught for dps. I'd rather be in shadowdancer to enjoy the many unique, yet not at all OP, abilities and still have competitive dps.

2. Are you finding the bonus from MTF consistent? I'm finding that with any group bigger than about 4, that I have difficulty getting back into sneak fast enough to keep it at max stacks.

Somewhat. It can be consistent as long as I drop out of melee for a second to go into sneak mode. That's certainly possible, but I also get lazy sometimes and just don't bother, which is exactly what I predicted this would be like – tedious and not very fun. I still think this should fade 1 stack every 6 seconds to simply avoid the tedium. I understand Sev's concept of measure the foe being like a surprise attack, but in actual play it doesn't work that way because you can keep it up constantly if you're willing to micromanage it. The end result is simply an un-fun mechanic. I also sometimes don't drop into sneak mode so that I can keep meleeing to build up stacks of blitz. Yet another reason why dreadnaught is not a compatible destiny with the assassin playstyle.

[HuneyMunster]

Because rage blocks any spell casting, including cocoon.
Yes, you can dismiss rage when you need cocoon, but you know barbs are lazy
So, they insisted they needed unblockable & in-battle healing from auto-attack. Blood Strength from Ravager.

Blood Strength: Each time you land a hit there is a 12% chance you heal positive damage equal to your Barbarian level. Each time you kill an opponent you are healed for 20 hit points. This healing scales with 100% Melee Power.

It's obviously over-powered enhancement.

I think they should need to get out of the combat to heal, DPS-loss when you heal like every other classes.
& it should be temp-hp, not real hp.
Current barbs doesn't need to get out of the combat to heal. DPS & Heal at the same time, that's the problem.

Barb already also get a temp-hp heal called Blood Tribute that scales into epics. Does 50/100/150 per rank plus 25 extra per epic level. But at a loss of -1 Con every time its used until rest.

I think the high heal amp is more powerful than just blood strength due to the increased benefit of Consecration that Barbs can use while raging.

Ive only played a barb to 20 and ran a few ee stuff at 20, but I had something like 80 heal amp just from the cores from Ravenger and Berserker and another 20 from Human. This was on top of the 60 from pdk gloves and 10 from paladin past life for total of 170 at level 20. Soloing ee at 20 I felt like nothing could kill me running in LD with consecration twisted in.

[HuneyMunster]

Measure the Foe could also do with increasing max Dex bonus so you are able to make full use of the 10 dodge and max dodge bonus.

[CThruTheEgo]

Measure the Foe could also do with increasing max Dex bonus so you are able to make full use of the 10 dodge and max dodge bonus.

Seconded. There's really not much point to this bonus if it doesn't also add MDB.

[slarden]

Yes but a loss of 1 on a d20 only equals a 5% failure rate when you're within a range of 20 from the required save. Going from an 85 to 75 reflex save does not mean you will fail 50% more often. If anything, there are only a handful of quests/traps/mobs (e.g. EE 3BC, EE FTP) against which this loss is going to make a difference, and in some of those you won't be in the range to succeed even with an 85 reflex save. There's a huge jump in reflex save requirements where 65-70ish will be no fail in about 97% of the game and then a few places that require stupidly high numbers like 100+. There is very little content that falls between those two. So it could really be argued that insightful reflexes is not a must have even on an int build. I'd still take it, personally, but I also don't consider assassins feat starved anymore.
.

The fact that you are taking the feat says quite a bit. I build my characters for the most difficult content and every point of my reflex save matters in that content. That is where I spent most of my time - the most difficult content. I am very far from a no-fail save.

If we are talking about the easier content none of these changes being asked for in this thread matters either and are unneccessary because rogues are fine in 97% of the content in the game.

[slarden]

Barb already also get a temp-hp heal called Blood Tribute that scales into epics. Does 50/100/150 per rank plus 25 extra per epic level. But at a loss of -1 Con every time its used until rest.

I think the high heal amp is more powerful than just blood strength due to the increased benefit of Consecration that Barbs can use while raging.

Ive only played a barb to 20 and ran a few ee stuff at 20, but I had something like 80 heal amp just from the cores from Ravenger and Berserker and another 20 from Human. This was on top of the 60 from pdk gloves and 10 from paladin past life for total of 170 at level 20. Soloing ee at 20 I felt like nothing could kill me running in LD with consecration twisted in.

With no paladin past lifes on my dwarf occult slayer - silver flame pots heal me for 850 and the only healing amp I have besides the barbarian tree is iron mitts (epic gloves of the claw pre level 24) and an old TOD 20% healing amp ring I made specifically for silver flame pots pre-U14 and I am able to fit in still since barbarians don't really need much gear compared to other builds.

Consecration isn't a great option for me as I have no favored soul/sorc past lifes or sp regen items on this character. Silver flame pots are sufficient healing and of course I love being in a party with other people using their consecrations - which means I rarely even need to use silver flame pots.

I will say I didn't expect the loss of 15 PRR and 15 MRR from U25 to make much of a difference on my barbarian, but I definitely noticed the difference yesterday in EE Orchard unless something else changed that I missed.

[CThruTheEgo]

The fact that you are taking the feat says quite a bit. I build my characters for the most difficult content and every point of my reflex save matters in that content. That is where I spent most of my time - the most difficult content. I am very far from a no-fail save.

If we are talking about the easier content none of these changes being asked for in this thread matters either and are unneccessary because rogues are fine in 97% of the content in the game.

Yes but even with insightful reflexes I'm still failing saves in EE Prove Your Worth and and against dragons in EE FTP. It helps in EE Haunted Halls. That's my point. There are few places where it will help (e.g. Haunted Halls). While in most places with sky high reflex save requirements (e.g. EE Prove Your Worth and EE FTP), it still won't do anything. If I had to drop a feat for some reason, it would be the first core feat to go. But I don't have to drop a feat because I have plenty, so I take it.

This is yet another one of those things you and I are simply not going to agree on. But that doesn't matter anyway. The only reason granting insightful reflexes was ever suggested in the first place was to balance the possibility of dex based assassins, and that's not happening. So we're both still going to be taking insightful reflexes.

[slarden]

Yes but even with insightful reflexes I'm still failing saves in EE Prove Your Worth and and against dragons in EE FTP. It helps in EE Haunted Halls. That's my point. There are few places where it will help (e.g. Haunted Halls). While in most places with sky high reflex save requirements (e.g. EE Prove Your Worth and EE FTP), it still won't do anything. If I had to drop a feat for some reason, it would be the first core feat to go. But I don't have to drop a feat because I have plenty, so I take it.

This is yet another one of those things you and I are simply not going to agree on. But that doesn't matter anyway. The only reason granting insightful reflexes was ever suggested in the first place was to balance the possibility of dex based assassins, and that's not happening. So we're both still going to be taking insightful reflexes.

Prove your worth is incredibly high because there is a avoidance technique that can be used. The really bad part of EE FOTP is the yellow circles which you can avoid entirely because of the warning. Every point I gain from insightful reflexes will help against the dragon breath there although I still fall short of "no fail".

The extra save helps in ee HH, ee Orchard and the newest raids. That is what I build my character for.

[Eth]

You should be heal scrolling for almost 500. You should be hitting cocoon for 150+. What do you have to complain about exactly? Or do you want barb healing where you heal 10000000 hp every 1 second.

Like always - people are doing it wrong.
The trick is to reduce your total HP to about 250.
That way your cocoon instantly heals you back to full and even CSW potions heal a significant percentage of your HP.

[dualscissors]

Like always - people are doing it wrong.
The trick is to reduce your total HP to about 250.
That way your cocoon instantly heals you back to full and even CSW potions heal a significant percentage of your HP.

(edit: misread) Presuming you don't have a mob serious about trying to continue to damage you, or heaven forbid more than one mob on you. Then 250 HP + 150 from Rejuv and slow ticks put you deep in a Logginsian danger zone where any bad luck spells death screen. This is where the trifecta of lower HPs, lower PRR, slow-bad self healing make for squishiness.