Rogue - Assassin Changes

[bbqzor]

Nimbleness:

From the Known Issues list:

NEW: The Rogue Assassin's Nimbleness core enhancement is not providing a benefit on-hit, but does provide a benefit when hit.

The reason its performing poorly is because at some point on lama it (accidentally) changed from triggering when YOU hit a mob to triggering when the MOB hits you. I am assuming they will fix this back (sooner rather than later) and as a result the enhancement should be adequate at that point in time.

As for the rest of the feedback, yes sneak shouldnt be quite as easy to break, but not sure I want to see it pawned off on concentrate. Thats a cross-class skill for rogue. Maybe they could just make it apply a debuff thats -20 to hide/move silent for 6s after being hit, rather than fully breaking you out. That somewhat mirrors pnp, and allows someone with superior skill to remain hidden under duress. To avoid being infinitely hidden with sufficient score, just make it stack up to once per second. If one of your scores goes under 0 due to being consecutively beaten over a few seconds, you unsneak.

And re: Killer, would you feel this offered more if it faded one stack at a time rather than all at once? That has been asked for numerous times and ignored, but the practicality of it is that when playing it needs that functionality or its an AP sink. As it stands its a 0-1 rank buy, which is unfortunate.

[nokowi]

I did some calcs to determine exactly what was the average damage per hit, per AP, assuming 100 melee power, of some of the damage enhancements. Here is what I found:

Average damage per hit, per AP spent, with 100 melee power:
venomed blades rank 1: 7.5 damage per hit
venomed blades rank 2: 3 damage per hit
venomed blades rank 3: 3 damage per hit
sneak attack training: 3.5 damage per hit
critical mastery: 1.8 damage per hit

So the first rank of venomed blades offers the most return on investment. Ranks 2 and 3, however, are outclassed by sneak attack training. Critical mastery offers the worst return and probably isn't worth it at all given the value of AP now. Because it is a damage over time effect, bleed them out is more difficult to quantify. Needless to say, it is probably only useful against bosses that will live long enough for stacks to be built up.

For the sake of transparency, here are the specific calculations for anyone interested:
venomed blades rank 1: [2.5 average damage per hit * (200+100)/100 melee power]/1 AP=7.5 average damage per hit per AP
venomed blades rank 2: [1 average damage per hit * (200+100)/100 melee power]/1 AP=3 average damage per hit per AP
venomed blades rank 3: [1 average damage per hit * (200+100)/100 melee power]/1 AP=3 average damage per hit per AP
sneak attack training: [3.5 average damage per hit * (100+100)/100 melee power]/2 AP=3.5 average damage per hit per AP
critical mastery: [3 average damage per crit * 3 crit multiplier * 0.3 crit chance * (100+100)/100 melee power]/3 AP=1.8 average damage per hit per AP

With overwhelming crit:

critical mastery: [ (3*3*0.2+3*4*0.1) * (100+100)/100 melee power]/3 AP=2.0 average damage per hit per AP

[nokowi]

You should be heal scrolling for almost 500. You should be hitting cocoon for 150+. What do you have to complain about exactly? Or do you want barb healing where you heal 10000000 hp every 1 second.

I think the issue is that scroll healing can cut your (already lower) dps in half. I love the play of having to jump away and scroll heal, I just wish I had more dps (boss in particular) to make up for the skill involved in playing an assassin, and the loss of dps from trying to stay alive.

I am at 566 Scroll Heals without Harper: Vigor of Life and without Epic Shroud of Ardent. Scroll heals are a challenge because concentration doesn't help on EE. I'm crazy, but I like this added challenge. Every other class but fighter has an easy button heal. This is something I don't want to see in rogue.

[nokowi]

And re: Killer, would you feel this offered more if it faded one stack at a time rather than all at once? That has been asked for numerous times and ignored, but the practicality of it is that when playing it needs that functionality or its an AP sink. As it stands its a 0-1 rank buy, which is unfortunate.

If you take 3 ranks, you have 15 seconds to reapply killer. This should be an almost constant 15-20% doublestrike in group mode on trash mobs for players moving in and out of stealth. (Double assassinate gives you the first 10%)

I use and highly recommend 3 ranks in killer as-is.

It doesn't do as much in solo mode for obvious reasons.

[Jetrule]

Sneak:
This is breaking too often. At level 15 I have max ranks, GH and the ring of shadows. I should be hard to find. Also, it should be much harder for AOE or stray arrows to pull me out of sneak. The suggestion for a rogue version of a concentration check for this is a good one.

Sneak speed. A pure rogue should be sneaking at the same speed as non-rogues of the same level who are not sneaking. Its what we do.

Its too hard to shake something once it finds you. Archers are especially onerous on this score. I was wandering the desert and would get an archer on me and it could keep me out of sneak forever. I would go around corners, sneak and come back and it would still have me even after breaking line of sight. Their ability to do this seems too strong. Once they know there is someone sneaking around, I'm find with putting them on alert with a small bonus to spot and listen, but there needs to be a way to break-lock with them so that they no longer know our position and have to search for us again.

The way to shake a monster that has spotted you it is by breaking line of sight stealthing AND becoming invisible. This works for most all archers or other things chasing you. once they have spotted you the monster gets a huge spot bonus against you but no listen bonus. Invis effectively gives immunity from spot. The archers spotting you and hitting you are not stray arrows. Most archer mobs in the game have very high spot, and ranger levels, along with wisdom and spot items. If you aren't dex based and maxing hide by stealthy enhancements best item and camoflage spells if you can get them. you aren't going to stay hidden from these spotty rangers long. One answer is combining invis with stealth. A thing to remember is that you and every one else get situational bonuses to spot and minuses to hide in well lit areas in many quests. these usualy arent shown on character sheet either. Another option is luring the spottiest archers off alone. or staying behind or to the side of them as you approach for a assassinate. The most eagle eyed drow hunter wont ever spot you if you are behind them.

[nokowi]

Here are my results for movement as of the 3/27/2015 Lamannia update:

Run Base Movement=100
1. Add the higher of your striding(up to 30) or guild buff (up to 40)
2. Add your rogue level if you took Thief-Acrobat Fast Movement
Max Run Speed = 100+40+20 = 160 (20 rogue with high guild level)

If you have the guild buff and add Thief-Acrobat Fast Movement you will run 160/140 = 14% faster.

Sneak Base Movement = 40 (40% as fast as running with no buffs on either)
1. Add the higher of your striding(up to 30) or guild buff(up to 40)
2. Add 0.40*(your Stealthy assassin tree value)
3. Add 0.40*(your rogue level) if you took Thief-Acrobat Fast Movement
Max Stealth Speed = 40+40+0.40*50+0.40*20 = 108 (20 rogue with speed from both assassin and acrobat trees)

Right now a 20 rogue in stealth is gaining 8% speed (108/100) from Thief Acrobat Fast movement.
Right now a 20 rogue running is gaining 14% speed (160/140) from Thief Acrobat Fast movement.

A rogue with (40% guild, 50% stealthy, and 20% thief-acrobat)
The fastest 20 rogue in stealth moves (108/140) 77% as fast as a toon without class speed buffs.
The fastest 20 rogue in stealth moves (108/160) 67% as fast a lvl 20 acrobat.

A rogue with (40% guild, 50% stealthy)
This rogue in stealth is moving (100/140) 71% as fast as a toon without class speed buffs.
This rogue in stealth is moving (100/160) 62% as fast a lvl 20 acrobat.

I ran/stealthed from just inside the vale from Meridia and exited to the 12 to get these values. Here is the raw data:

Run: 40% Guild + 20% Thief-acrobat = 82 seconds
Run: 40% Guild = 92 seconds
Run: 40% Guild + 30% Striding = 92 seconds

Sneak: 40% Guild + 50% Stealthy + 20% Thief-acrobat = 120 seconds
Sneak: 40% Guild + 50% Stealthy = 128 seconds
Sneak: 40% Guild + 20% Stealthy = 151 seconds
Sneak: 40% Guild = 172 seconds
Sneak: 40% Guild + 30% Striding = 172 seconds

-Noko

[nokowi]

The way to shake a monster that has spotted you it is by breaking line of sight stealthing AND becoming invisible. This works for most all archers or other things chasing you. once they have spotted you the monster gets a huge spot bonus against you but no listen bonus. Invis effectively gives immunity from spot. The archers spotting you and hitting you are not stray arrows. Most archer mobs in the game have very high spot, and ranger levels, along with wisdom and spot items. If you aren't dex based and maxing hide by stealthy enhancements best item and camoflage spells if you can get them. you aren't going to stay hidden from these spotty rangers long. One answer is combining invis with stealth. A thing to remember is that you and every one else get situational bonuses to spot and minuses to hide in well lit areas in many quests. these usualy arent shown on character sheet either. Another option is luring the spottiest archers off alone. or staying behind or to the side of them as you approach for a assassinate. The most eagle eyed drow hunter wont ever spot you if you are behind them.

I do wish I could take deflect arrows as a rogue special ability. I was worried about ToEE, which has lots of archers in an enclosed space, but I find it to play quite well, as-is. I generally don't experience problems with getting removed from stealth. When this does happen to me, it provides a nice burst of excitement. DDO has the best stealth mechanics of any game I have played.

[bbqzor]

If you take 3 ranks, you have 15 seconds to reapply killer. This should be an almost constant 15-20% doublestrike in group mode on trash mobs for players moving in and out of stealth

Maybe with the assassinte cd reduced to 12 seconds like in the patch notes. Admittedly I havent logged much playtime after that change went in to get a feel for it under those conditions. When the cd was at 15s it was a different story... maybe if you are sharp about landing those assassinates in the 1s window to keep it going now in "any" trash related conditions I might reverse my opinion. Ill get some time soon to check that out.

Otherwise I guess it depends who you group with. When partied with other characters of equivalent gearing, it can become difficult to ensure killshots that frequently. If the stuff is so easy you can train it, other people often have better group-kill tools. If its so difficult you dont train it, its often more than 15s between opportunities. Obviously your play experience may (and probably does) differ greatly from mine, as will anyone elses. Its a subjective enhancement, that is for sure.

But on the flip side, if its easy to maintain as "always on" now... what difference would it make it if fell off 1 stack at a time? Seems like all that could do is help people on their way up, since its no change for people at the top. Just some thoughts.

[nokowi]

But on the flip side, if its easy to maintain as "always on" now... what difference would it make it if fell off 1 stack at a time? Seems like all that could do is help people on their way up, since its no change for people at the top. Just some thoughts.

I would have no problem with this. I just wanted to pipe in that I find Killer useful in my play style.

[slarden]

Here are my results for movement as of the 3/27/2015 Lamannia update:

Run Base Movement=100
1. Add the higher of your striding(up to 30) or guild buff (up to 40)
2. Add your rogue level if you took Thief-Acrobat Fast Movement
Max Run Speed = 100+40+20 = 160 (20 rogue with high guild level)

If you have the guild buff and add Thief-Acrobat Fast Movement you will run 160/140 = 14% faster.

Sneak Base Movement = 40 (40% as fast as running with no buffs on either)
1. Add the higher of your striding(up to 30) or guild buff(up to 40)
2. Add 0.40*(your Stealthy assassin tree value)
3. Add 0.40*(your rogue level) if you took Thief-Acrobat Fast Movement
Max Stealth Speed = 40+40+0.40*50+0.40*20 = 108 (20 rogue with speed from both assassin and acrobat trees)

Right now a 20 rogue in stealth is gaining 8% speed (108/100) from Thief Acrobat Fast movement.
Right now a 20 rogue running is gaining 14% speed (160/140) from Thief Acrobat Fast movement.

A rogue with (40% guild, 50% stealthy, and 20% thief-acrobat)
The fastest 20 rogue in stealth moves (108/140) 77% as fast as a toon without class speed buffs.
The fastest 20 rogue in stealth moves (108/160) 67% as fast a lvl 20 acrobat.

A rogue with (40% guild, 50% stealthy)
This rogue in stealth is moving (100/140) 71% as fast as a toon without class speed buffs.
This rogue in stealth is moving (100/160) 62% as fast a lvl 20 acrobat.

I ran/stealthed from just inside the vale from Meridia and exited to the 12 to get these values. Here is the raw data:

Run: 40% Guild + 20% Thief-acrobat = 82 seconds
Run: 40% Guild = 92 seconds
Run: 40% Guild + 30% Striding = 92 seconds

Sneak: 40% Guild + 50% Stealthy + 20% Thief-acrobat = 120 seconds
Sneak: 40% Guild + 50% Stealthy = 128 seconds
Sneak: 40% Guild + 20% Stealthy = 151 seconds
Sneak: 40% Guild = 172 seconds
Sneak: 40% Guild + 30% Striding = 172 seconds

-Noko

My understanding is that the guild buff only works in public areas. Also, my understanding is that the stacking is via multiplication and not addition.

Sneak speed: 50% of base movement before multipliers
Sneak attack speed boost: 50% (150% Multiplier)
Rogue Fast Movement: 20% (120% Multiplier)

Since U25: 50% * 150% * 120% = 90% of "pre-U25" base speed while sneaking
Before U25: 50% * 150% = 75% of base speed while sneaking

You are indicating base sneak speed is 40% rather than 50% which I have no way to confirm. I've been told previously it was 50% which I can't confirm, but always accepted.

We are still at 75% of our base speed while sneaking since we get the 20% bonus while sneaking and not sneaking. However, we gained 20% overall so we should be sneaking a little faster than we were prior to U25.

[nokowi]

My understanding is that the guild buff only works in public areas. Also, my understanding is that the stacking is via multiplication and not addition.

Sneak speed: 50% of base movement before multipliers
Sneak attack speed boost: 50% (150% Multiplier)
Rogue Fast Movement: 20% (120% Multiplier)

Since U25: 50% * 150% * 120% = 90% of "pre-U25" base speed while sneaking
Before U25: 50% * 150% = 75% of base speed while sneaking

You are indicating base sneak speed is 40% rather than 50% which I have no way to confirm. I've been told previously it was 50% which I can't confirm, but always accepted.

We are still at 75% of our base speed while sneaking since we get the 20% bonus while sneaking and not sneaking. However, we gained 20% overall so we should be sneaking a little faster than we were prior to U25.

My tests show that guild buffs are currently working in quest. You can try my test with and without a striding item. If the time is the same, guild buffs are indeed working in quests (This is what I found in the slayer area). I did not run any tests without guild buffs at all.

It is certainly possible my formulas are not correct. The raw data is correct.

I just went to korthos on a level 1 toon. Sneak is indeed 50% of run, but guild buff is also adding 40% to the run speed (at least in slayer areas).

Running/sneaking from entrance to shrine

Run: 42 secs
Sneak: 82 secs
Run with guild buff: 30 secs

Thanks for the help, I will edit my OP.

[redoubt]

/snip...

As for the rest of the feedback, yes sneak shouldnt be quite as easy to break, but not sure I want to see it pawned off on concentrate. /snip .

I would not pick concentration either. Probably hide or move silent. We are checking to see if you can remain hidden and silent, so it makes sense to me.

[HuneyMunster]

Im still not sold on the Greater Incorporeal Bane on the new Assassins Kiss dagger. It such a small subset of monster that it effects it would rarely be useful. I think Disintegrate found on Epic midnight Greetings and Agony would be more suitable effect for an assassin.

[slarden]

I was wondering how people would feel about the benefit of 4AP and 1 feat if they weren't trying to sell the devs on dex as an assassinate stat.

This thread was quite enlightening as it demonstrates how valuable people think a few AP are.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ees-to-be-Free

To clarify, I didn't post the original thread or the suggestion for tome of AP. I just think it correlates nicely to the discussion about adding dex as an assassinate stat.

[draven1]

I was wondering how people would feel about the benefit of 4AP and 1 feat if they weren't trying to sell the devs on dex as an assassinate stat.

Current Int harper builds can use main stat(Int) for situational good weapons like,
Mace of smiting, Celestia, Bailzade, Mace for skellys, Muckbane, ranged weapon, etc.

It's obviously good point for Int harper builds. Dex builds can't use dex for some of them or need a feat(Weapon finesse, but, it doesn't allow dex to use heavy weapons & ranged weapon) for some of them.

Wider weapon selection is always good. Dex builds can't get all of them when they even spent a feat for it.

If you insist 'Insightful Reflex' is a tax for Int builds, Dex builds also have a tax : Weapon finesse.

And that 4AP makes things easier to take another good harper enhancement like : Know the angle & more melee powers.

It's just a trade-off.
Int builds for harper tree synergy(more general melee power & KtA & flexible weapon selection)
or mechanic tree synergy(trap & repeating xbow).

Dex builds for acrobat tree synergy(more defensive benefits & slightly situational higher DC & helpless damage)
or racial tree synergy(little more SA, etc).

[slarden]

Current Int harper builds can use main stat(Int) for situational good weapons like,
Mace of smiting, Celestia, Bailzade, Mace for skellys, Muckbane, ranged weapon, etc.

It's obviously good point for Int harper builds. Dex builds can't use dex for some of them or need a feat(Weapon finesse, but, it doesn't allow dex to use heavy weapons & ranged weapon) for some of them.

Wider weapon selection is always good. Dex builds can't get all of them when they even spent a feat for it.

If you insist 'Insightful Reflex' is a tax for Int builds, Dex builds also have a tax : Weapon finesse.

And that 4AP makes things easier to take another good harper enhancement like : Know the angle & more melee powers.

It's just a trade-off.
Int builds for harper tree synergy(more general melee power & KtA & flexible weapon selection)
or mechanic tree synergy(trap & repeating xbow).

Dex builds for acrobat tree synergy(more defensive benefits & slightly situational higher DC & helpless damage)
or racial tree synergy(little more SA, etc).

That is just crazy talk. I am not going to give my agony or TF dagger for those. If the devs offered dex for assassinate without the easy-button balancing items in the core: int to-hit/damage and insightful reflexes- I would still take kta for 8 AP and only lose 5-6 damage at most from it. Int isn't a dump stat for a rogue even on a dex build.

The thread I referenced previously gives a good idea how valuable people think AP are. I would never take weapon finesse on a dex-based rogue -it's pointless. I would use the bonus feat for something else.

If the 2 balancing changes were made then the differences would be trade-offs and dex builds would be better trash beaters while int builds would be better boss beaters. The pros/cons are debatable, but dex likely still wins by a slight margin.

Without the 2 balancing changes there is no debate which is better - dex wins without int being a close 2nd place.

[draven1]

That is just crazy talk. I am not going to give my agony or TF dagger for those. If the devs offered dex for assassinate without the easy-button balancing items in the core: int to-hit/damage and insightful reflexes- I would still take kta for 8 AP and only lose 5-6 damage at most from it. Int isn't a dump stat for a rogue even on a dex build.

As a same logic, you can get decent reflex save on int build without Insightful reflex, because Dex isn't a dump stat for a rogue even on a Int build.

Don't forget there were many Int or even Str rogues before Insightful reflex. It's all just trade-offs, build choices.
FYI, There was no insightful reflex feat in ddo for a while.

[slarden]

As a same logic, you can get decent reflex save on int build without Insightful reflex, because Dex isn't a dump stat for a rogue even on a Int build.

Don't forget there were many Int or even Str rogues before Insightful reflex. It's all just trade-offs, build choices.
FYI, There was no insightful reflex feat in ddo for a while.

- 10-12 on a reflex save is a much bigger deal than 5-6 on damage. The 5-6 damage is a trade-off because you get really good dps benefits (no mercy) in exchange for that slight reduction in kta. There is no trade-off gained by not having insightful reflexes. Your save goes down 50-60% - it's just strictly an unacceptable save reduction.

That comparison doesn't work because you are comparing something with a trade-off for something with no trade-off.

[FestusHood]

This is my take on the self healing aspect. Everybody (except barbs) can use cocoon, therefore everybody has self healing in epics. Before epics heal scrolls and pots are easily enough to get you through.

I was not highly in favor of adding a lot of self healing in barb trees, but i can somewhat understand it for the specific reason that they can't use cocoon.

Classes that have innate cure or heal spells should be able to heal themselves better than classes that don't. That has always been the case, it's a perk (perc?) of those classes.

When i play classes that have cure spells, i.e. pallies rangers and bards, once i hit epics i still primarily heal myself with cocoon. My current tank paladin, which has only 15 pally levels, doesn't even have a cure spell slotted, and never has. For those moments when the cocoon gets knocked off too soon, i use lay on hands. If i was firing off maximized cure moderate or serious wounds every time i needed a heal i would end up chugging more mana pots than the average wizard.

[CThruTheEgo]

1. With the recent changes DPS doesn't strike me as underperforming necessarily *because of Assassin* so much as DPS in Shadowdancer is a bit too low compared to Legendary Dreadnought. Boosting DPS more in the heroic Assassin tiers/cores won't change the SD vs. LD ratio. You'd be more viable in SD...or more super-powered if you double-downed on LD.

So shouldn't a DPS problem with SD vs. LD be addressed in Shadowdancer?

I would agree with this, and again we are back to the need for a shadowdancer revamp to accompany the assassin revamp. I have been running my assassin in dreadnaught, and dps is fantastic, but it doesn't feel like playing my assassin. It feels like playing every other melee. There are times when assassinate is off timer and instead I'm just attacking mobs to try to build up blitz. That's lame. It's really bad design that there are only two good melee dps destinies (i.e. dreadnaught and crusader), neither of which suits the assassin playstyle.

Giving shadowdancer the ability to make sneak attacks crittable would maintain the tree as assassin specific (pretty much no other build uses it as a primary destiny) but would give assassins damage on par with dreadnaught and crusader. And since the dps increase would be sneak attack based, it would only reinforce and encourage the unique playstyle of assassins. When the idea of making sneak attacks crittable was first suggested, I initially thought it would be too powerful. But after playing with the changes for a week, and realizing that dreadnaught is currently the only viable option for competitive melee dps in epics, I think making sneak attacks crittable is exactly what is needed. Shadowdancer seems like a good place to put this.

2. Fix DCs for "Poison Strikes." 10 + 1/2 rogue + Int caps DCs in the 40s. "Shadow Dagger" has a base *18* + 1/2 rogue...which caps you at a mid-50s DC. Both are not viable in EE at current formulas. Fixing both of these grants a little more control over the field, and nicely amounts to just changing the formula and it's done.

Seconded. I forgot to include this in my feedback list.

4. Still very squishy and heal scrolls are a bad option in EE. I'm okay with some degree of squishiness compared to other classes, but I find once I get in HP trouble options are extremely limited (i.e. abandoning the fight and spend a lot of time scrolling and rejuving). Reductions in agro is very good in groups, not possible when soloing, though.

Heal scrolls have been cited as the rogue's intended go-to advantage, but heal scrolls just are too cumbersome to use and not strong enough to be viable with end game EE mobs and champs.

I'm not sure what a modest fix would be here.

I'm not entirely sure what a good fix is here either. I don't want easy button self healing, that's for sure. I am still in favor of an increase to PRR from light armor mastery such as 5/10/15. That would help the problem a little without making anything OP.

That's a good idea. I'd throw in Deadly Strikes which with 100 melee power comes to a little more than 4 damage per hit per AP. But it's not on trash, only on monsters that cannot be killed faster than 6 seconds (Poison Strikes cooldown), so one might say it's even lower damage per hit per AP.

I didn't include deadly strikes because it won't apply to every mob, but it is still probably worth considering. I'll edit my post to include this:

deadly strikes: {[5(0.65) + 5(3)(0.2) + 5(4)(0.1)](100 + 100)/100 melee power]}/2 AP=8.25 average damage per hit per AP