Rogue - Assassin Changes

[unbongwah]

ark Imbuement needs to be an epic-worthy cannon; it's currently Pathetic.

This is unfortunately true of a lot of Epic Moments, IMHO.

TBH I think Blitz is still too powerful - or at least should have its duration capped so you can't keep it going indefinitely - but people get really cranky whenever you discuss the Nerf Bat, so...

[dualscissors]

The +20 MP that got built into Assassin - plus a little for TWF - certainly helps resolve some of the deficit of going SD vs. LD. However, since that +20 MP isn't tied to destiny, it's not a hard incentive to go SD instead of LD. There is the temptation for assassins to take their +20 MP AND grab those 10 stacks of +7 MP from LD via Blitz.

The point being articulated is most (I observe drastically most) assassins prefer SD as the most synergetic play style but struggle justifying the large reduction in DPS for the perks. Until SD isn't down quite as drastically as ~10 stacks x 7 MP the grass will be greener with LD. Certainly Incorporeality 25%, extra INT, shadow charges and the like count for a lot, just not -70 MP max. We can call that -50 MP if we're being conciliatory to the Devs' intent that the +20 MP was to offset SD vs. LD. +/-50 MP is still pretty huge.

That sound about right?

[CThruTheEgo]

The +20 MP that got built into Assassin - plus a little for TWF - certainly helps resolve some of the deficit of going SD vs. LD. However, since that +20 MP isn't tied to destiny, it's not a hard incentive to go SD instead of LD. There is the temptation for assassins to take their +20 MP AND grab those 10 stacks of +7 MP from LD via Blitz.

The point being articulated is most (I observe drastically most) assassins prefer SD as the most synergetic play style but struggle justifying the large reduction in DPS for the perks. Until SD isn't down quite as drastically as ~10 stacks x 7 MP the grass will be greener with LD. Certainly Incorporeality 25%, extra INT, shadow charges and the like count for a lot, just not -70 MP max. We can call that -50 MP if we're being conciliatory to the Devs' intent that the +20 MP was to offset SD vs. LD. +/-50 MP is still pretty huge.

That sound about right?

I'd say that sounds about right. The problem, I think, is that shadowdancer does have a lot of utility, and we know from Sev's comments that "utility" is being considered in the equation of build balance. But the problem is that DDO is fundamentally a hack n' slash game. You have to kill certain mobs, you have to kill certain numbers of mobs, and you have to kill mobs with a lot of hp who also deal a lot of damage to you. Given that 95+% of quests follow this basic formula, no amount of utility can make up for falling short of the ability to kill enemies and survive while doing so. You cannot simply set such objectives as the baseline for which all classes/builds must perform in order to complete quests, and then not give every class/build the ability to accomplish those objectives. So whatever utility shadowdancer offers, it does not make up for the lack of dps that comes with it. Any other melee in dreadnaught does not need the utility of shadowdancer and can complete quests with much greater ease as a result of having higher dps. Any consideration of "utility" is meaningless. This is the central problem. The game either has to stop being a pure hack n' slash game, or class/build balance has to be centered around the fact that it is.

[slarden]

The +20 MP that got built into Assassin - plus a little for TWF - certainly helps resolve some of the deficit of going SD vs. LD. However, since that +20 MP isn't tied to destiny, it's not a hard incentive to go SD instead of LD. There is the temptation for assassins to take their +20 MP AND grab those 10 stacks of +7 MP from LD via Blitz.

The point being articulated is most (I observe drastically most) assassins prefer SD as the most synergetic play style but struggle justifying the large reduction in DPS for the perks. Until SD isn't down quite as drastically as ~10 stacks x 7 MP the grass will be greener with LD. Certainly Incorporeality 25%, extra INT, shadow charges and the like count for a lot, just not -70 MP max. We can call that -50 MP if we're being conciliatory to the Devs' intent that the +20 MP was to offset SD vs. LD. +/-50 MP is still pretty huge.

That sound about right?

Shadowdancer does really have alot of utility.

Shadowmastery removes sneak attack immunity on a vorpal
Ddoor clicky
+3% doublestrike
sneak speed short term boost
threat reduction toggle
+6 sneak attack dice
+24 Melee Power
+4 intelligence (for me - some take more int and give up other things)
+ 6 assassinate (although it can be twisted in easily enough)
Int as selectable stat vs. LD
+ 7 dodge
+15 incorporeal
immunity to energy drain
+15% armor piercing
100% dodge clickie for 15 seconds every 2 minutes (although it can also be twisted in)

[nokowi]

Shadowdancer does really have alot of utility.

Shadowmastery removes sneak attack immunity on a vorpal
Ddoor clicky
+3% doublestrike
sneak speed short term boost
threat reduction toggle
+6 sneak attack dice
+24 Melee Power
+4 intelligence (for me - some take more int and give up other things)
+ 6 assassinate (although it can be twisted in easily enough)
Int as selectable stat vs. LD
+ 7 dodge
+15 incorporeal
immunity to energy drain
+15% armor piercing
100% dodge clickie for 15 seconds every 2 minutes (although it can also be twisted in)

1. None of the dodge goes past dodge cap.
2. Threat reduction is not needed with shiv/deception/blinding and low DPS
3. LD gets 50% dodge which gives LD more defense and more offense
4. 6 SA dice is about 40 extra damage per hit, really just a sad joke --> you get more SA from LD through MP

LD wins in both offense and defense. You can drop Int and still get the DC's you need with more damage.

The only thing Shadowdancer really has going for it is immunity to energy drain, 25% incorporeal, and the core fast sneaking clicky. Getting these for 1/2 the damage of LD is just plain ridiculous. Stealth play with slow movement is a penalty of its own that should be balanced by something more, not something less.

[dualscissors]

Shadowdancer does really have alot of utility.

Shadowmastery removes sneak attack immunity on a vorpal
Ddoor clicky
+3% doublestrike
sneak speed short term boost
threat reduction toggle
+6 sneak attack dice
+24 Melee Power
+4 intelligence (for me - some take more int and give up other things)
+ 6 assassinate (although it can be twisted in easily enough)
Int as selectable stat vs. LD
+ 7 dodge
+15 incorporeal
immunity to energy drain
+15% armor piercing
100% dodge clickie for 15 seconds every 2 minutes (although it can also be twisted in)

I'm sympathetic to many of those things on your list (and briefly mentioned some of them). I am also one who prefers the playstyle of SD largely due to a number of these abilities. They are flavorful, fun, interesting to play with!

The big thing I notice from playing both destinies a lot lately is: (1) I observe that I kill things MUCH more quickly in LD (-> 10 stacks of 7 MP, more damage boons, 3 additional actions boosts that cooldown more quickly for going medieval on enemies). (2) I also am benefitting from survivability where rogues are malnourished: +30 PRR when blitzing, Thick Skinned (2 min. cooldown), core-granted HPs, and selecting a couple of Con-ups, which reduce squishiness about 100 HPs.

The rub about the added offense with LD vs. SD is it also affects survivability: I might have more dodge, incorporeal, invis with SD but I have to stand in the trenches longer because of the slower kill rate. I'm uncertain how much better SD is defensively here or if that comes out in the wash.

The 4 MP per core in SD is nice but is counter-balanced by LD's 3 MP per core (did they reduce that to 2?) so SD isn't netting a 24 MP gain comparatively.

[nokowi]

Sadly, this has been my experience as well. In shadowdancer, there's very little difference from before the revamp. DPS is great in dreadnaught, but that's got absolutely nothing to do with assassin or their revamp. Being tied to dreadnaught for dps is just as lame as being tied to shadowdancer for DC. So nothing has really changed.

It is pretty sad that there are effectively only two melee destinies – divine crusader and legendary dreadnaught. Any melee looking for endgame dps is going to be in one of these two. So although Sev said early on that this wasn't happening right now, I have to echo the sentiment of many others and say that shadowdancer really needs a revamp and, with the revamp to assassin, this is the perfect time to do it.

I think we got 20 MP in assassin (was there any there before?) and 20 MP from MtF for trash work. Add in vorpal, and trash damage is a bit better than it was. I think we got about a ~30-35% boost to trash damage. LD received most of this boost as well. Adding +2 to DC really pushed the pendulum in favor of pure 20 rogue running LD. LD now seems viable compared to other melee passes. Unfortunately, many assassin players just don't like this play style --> That's why they migrated to assassin in the first place.

I really wish level 18 had done ~5000 (endgame) damage on vorpal instead of an insta kill so that we have a source of DPS on bosses. This was probably tough to implement, as anything SD could do, LD could do better... The design decision for vorpal does make sense if Shadowdancer revamp is being planned in the future. That extra MP can scale nicely if some actual DPS is put into Shadowdancer.

[CThruTheEgo]

I think we got 20 MP in assassin (was there any there before?) and 20 MP from MtF for trash work. Add in vorpal, and trash damage is a bit better than it was. I think we got about a ~30-35% boost to trash damage. LD received most of this boost as well. Adding +2 to DC really pushed the pendulum in favor of pure 20 rogue running LD. LD now seems viable compared to other melee passes. Unfortunately, many assassin players just don't like this play style --> That's why they migrated to assassin in the first place.

I really wish level 18 had done ~5000 (endgame) damage on vorpal instead of an insta kill so that we have a source of DPS on bosses. This was probably tough to implement, as anything SD could do, LD could do better... The design decision for vorpal does make sense if Shadowdancer revamp is being planned in the future. That extra MP can scale nicely if some actual DPS is put into Shadowdancer.

As far as I know, nothing was changed with vorpal. If you're refering to lethality, the level 18 core, the only thing that changed about it was +5 melee power. Did I miss some other change?

[CThruTheEgo]

The rub about the added offense with LD vs. SD is it also affects survivability: I might have more dodge, incorporeal, invis with SD but I have to stand in the trenches longer because of the slower kill rate.

And this is where the whole concept of "utility" falls short – in the trenches, which is what 99% of this entire game is all about.

[dualscissors]

As far as I know, nothing was changed with vorpal. If you're refering to lethality, the level 18 core, the only thing that changed about it was +5 melee power. Did I miss some other change?

"Lethality: Any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike (attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation) that you make will kill most living targets. +5 Melee Power."

...which is what it's said for as long as I've browsed the wiki, minus the +5 MP part.

[nokowi]

"Lethality: Any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike (attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation) that you make will kill most living targets. +5 Melee Power."

...which is what it's said for as long as I've browsed the wiki, minus the +5 MP part.

Oops. Subtract off 15% of that new damage. I was under the assumption we had a true vorpal now, instead of the old version with a failed save.

[CThruTheEgo]

"Lethality: Any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike (attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation) that you make will kill most living targets. +5 Melee Power."

...which is what it's said for as long as I've browsed the wiki, minus the +5 MP part.

Right, there was no change other than the 5 melee power. Sev did say they were going to clarify the description so we knew exactly what it did, but that didn't happen and, as far as I can tell, I don't notice any difference in the uselessness of vorpals after the revamp than I did before.

[slarden]

1. None of the dodge goes past dodge cap.
2. Threat reduction is not needed with shiv/deception/blinding and low DPS
3. LD gets 50% dodge which gives LD more defense and more offense
4. 6 SA dice is about 40 extra damage per hit, really just a sad joke --> you get more SA from LD through MP

LD wins in both offense and defense. You can drop Int and still get the DC's you need with more damage.

The only thing Shadowdancer really has going for it is immunity to energy drain, 25% incorporeal, and the core fast sneaking clicky. Getting these for 1/2 the damage of LD is just plain ridiculous. Stealth play with slow movement is a penalty of its own that should be balanced by something more, not something less.

For me the shadow charges takes me from 20 to 27 which is exactly my dodge cap so it adds benefit.

I do agree that LD is better and always has been, but the biggest benefits in that tree are for builds with power attacks and cleaves. Daggers/Kukris specifically don't benefit as much as other weapons. Master's Blitz is what the destiny is all about and it's not a very fun mechanic for me as an assassin because managing master's blitz changes my play style except against bosses. I would like to see them buff shadowdancer but Sev already ruled that out. I don't know of any builds that use shadowdancer as their primary destiny except assassins which makes it fairly safe to tinker with.

Unfortunately what will prevent improvements to rogue dps is splash builds optimizing the right mix of crits, melee power and sneak attack damage. The weapon of choice probably won't be a dagger or kukri.

[CThruTheEgo]

I do agree that LD is better and always has been, but the biggest benefits in that tree are for builds with power attacks and cleaves.

The biggest benefits in that tree are the 70 melee power and 30 PRR from master's blitz. You can fight with a wet noodle and still pwn EE content if you're blitzing. I've used dreadnaught on several builds that didn't have power attack or cleaves. The real value of it is in the stupidly high dps. And that's the problem. We have 2 choices for melee dps destinies: dreadnaught and crusader. It just feels gimmicky to me to always have to rely on these 2, especially on my assassin.

Unfortunately what will prevent improvements to rogue dps is splash builds optimizing the right mix of crits, melee power and sneak attack damage. The weapon of choice probably won't be a dagger or kukri.

Given the excessive damage that bards, paladins, and barbs are capable of, I can't imagine that this should be a concern for anyone. No combination with rogue, using any of the suggested changes to dps, is going to be able to do what those builds do.

[slarden]

Given the excessive damage that bards, paladins, and barbs are capable of, I can't imagine that this should be a concern for anyone. No combination with rogue, using any of the suggested changes to dps, is going to be able to do what those builds do.

Then you obviously don't understand how well this can be optimized. It's going to out-dps any straight bard, paladin or barbarian.

[slarden]

The biggest benefits in that tree are the 70 melee power and 30 PRR from master's blitz. You can fight with a wet noodle and still pwn EE content if you're blitzing. I've used dreadnaught on several builds that didn't have power attack or cleaves. The real value of it is in the stupidly high dps. And that's the problem. We have 2 choices for melee dps destinies: dreadnaught and crusader. It just feels gimmicky to me to always have to rely on these 2, especially on my assassin.

I think you are underestimating how powerful some of the best builds are. Outside of boss fights you have about 2-3 seconds to build up your blitz before mobs are down if you are running with a really strong group. That's just not going to happen on a conventional rogue build.

[CThruTheEgo]

Then you obviously don't understand how well this can be optimized. It's going to out-dps any straight bard, paladin or barbarian.

What changes do you think could be taken advantage of, how so, and what specific build do you think would outperform bard/paladin/bard?

I think you are underestimating how powerful some of the best builds are. Outside of boss fights you have about 2-3 seconds to build up your blitz before mobs are down if you are running with a really strong group. That's just not going to happen on a conventional rogue build.

Like I said, I've used blitz on a variety of builds. I run with strong groups and I rarely have a problem getting blitz going and keeping it up. Now that blitz charges are not dependent on kill shot, it is very easy to get it up and keep it there. TWF with haste boost will have no problem starting and maintaining blitz.

[Saekee]

It is interesting for me to reflect on the overall assassin tree changes/rogue playstyle from before U19 and since then:

• Before U19, assassins ran with WoP rapiers or something unusual to that extent; they were extreme flavor builds. Mellkor's INT assassin seemed completely crazy but the EMGs at least were using INT to damage at that time (if I recall correctly).
• U19, it was a big buff, with knife specialization, free proficiency with kukris and more. Dex was used for to-hit and damage, and builds took weapon finesse for light maces against undead (looking at CThru's Hassan Assassin as an example).
• Harper tree, assassins gained INT to hit and damage, KtA and some melee power from the Harper Tree along with some extra ability score boosts.
• U25, assassins have received yet another big buff featuring melee power, bonuses to assassinate, etc.

Yet, it never seems enough to satisfy pure assassin aficionados. Is it something inherent to the class, a mere tweaking of the enhancement line, or something more profound?
Perhaps:

1. In comparison to the 'training wheels' classes like paladin and bard CDG, it falls far behind on the former's DPS & defenses and the latter's DC (and defenses).
2. quests tend to favor massive amounts of mobs as required kills with endgame bag-of-hp bosses or non-assassinatable enemies.
3. the player base's demands for an EE raid-worthy capacity of every class, so rogue assassins included must be able to handle such endgame content.
4. lack of interesting gear, such as only a few epic Improved deception weapons and boosters for assassinate

Why else? Just ruminating. Not even sure I agree with the above points but then I do not play endgame content.

Personally, my reluctance in playing a pure assassin resides on a) the defensive side and b) the uneasy feeling like I still need some specialized gear that I do not have, e.g. I have only 1 EMG, no Agony, no nice pony.

Thoughts?

[Candela90]

It is interesting for me to reflect on the overall assassin tree changes/rogue playstyle from before U19 and since then:

• Before U19, assassins ran with WoP rapiers or something unusual to that extent; they were extreme flavor builds. Mellkor's INT assassin seemed completely crazy but the EMGs at least were using INT to damage at that time (if I recall correctly).
• U19, it was a big buff, with knife specialization, free proficiency with kukris and more. Dex was used for to-hit and damage, and builds took weapon finesse for light maces against undead (looking at CThru's Hassan Assassin as an example).
• Harper tree, assassins gained INT to hit and damage, KtA and some melee power from the Harper Tree along with some extra ability score boosts.
• U25, assassins have received yet another big buff featuring melee power, bonuses to assassinate, etc.

Yet, it never seems enough to satisfy pure assassin aficionados. Is it something inherent to the class, a mere tweaking of the enhancement line, or something more profound?
Perhaps:

1. In comparison to the 'training wheels' classes like paladin and bard CDG, it falls far behind on the former's DPS & defenses and the latter's DC (and defenses).
2. quests tend to favor massive amounts of mobs as required kills with endgame bag-of-hp bosses or non-assassinatable enemies.
3. the player base's demands for an EE raid-worthy capacity of every class, so rogue assassins included must be able to handle such endgame content.
4. lack of interesting gear, such as only a few epic Improved deception weapons and boosters for assassinate

Why else? Just ruminating. Not even sure I agree with the above points but then I do not play endgame content.

Personally, my reluctance in playing a pure assassin resides on a) the defensive side and b) the uneasy feeling like I still need some specialized gear that I do not have, e.g. I have only 1 EMG, no Agony, no nice pony.

Thoughts?

Rogue players are unhappy because yes - we got slight buff - and I am glad we did. But compared to other melee's we're still weak.

Fighter have lots more survivability and defences, more feats and what goes with it are very well synergized with LD tree. They also can have some crowd control due to tactical feats bonuses and beeing mostly str-based.
Barbarians right now have also a lot better survivability with heal amp and self heal(due to more HP and Occult Slayer and Ravager tree) and probably better than rogue DPS. They can also build with stunning blow for CC due to very high str and very good synergy with LD.
Paladins ofc also have bigger survivability, pretty ok DPS, self heal, self buff, very high all saves and can get stun dc with boost to str from charisma, they have good synergy with LD and Divine Crusader if they choose to not go full tanky with US.
Bards have CC, better instakill (because it has very high dc even if you go str based), self heal and very good synergy with Divine Crusader.



Now... what rogue has? (or what rogue lacks)

SURVIVABILITY
Rogues have worst survivability from all other melees.
Least HP, not very good PRR/MRR and the most important no reliable self heal OR CC. The only thing they have is threat reduction and dodge, but it's not enough anymore. Even barbarians now ave pretty good self heal. A few years ago rogue had best self healing due to ability to use scrolls, now it means almost nothing as running away from monsters to cast scroll is taking away lots of DPS and every other melee class does not need to do that.
And about threat reduction - now when sometimes 10-20 mobs spawn at once or even more and mobs CLEAVE it's not THAT good...

DPS
Rogues dont have best DPS. Barbarians surely beat them. Im not sure if bards/fighters dont beat them too. Also for high dps rogue needs to not have aggro. Other classes dont have to worry about it.
The very important thing in DPS to mention is also Epic Destiny. SD is behind Divine Crusader and LD. Rogue is better off going with LD what is stupid... but rogues usually dont take cleaves and rely on sneak attack not base dmg so they dont gain so much from LD as other classes. Also their twists will be taken for roguish things like assassinate dc, while paladin/barbariab/fighter/bard can take things to have better dps or survivability.

Important thing to add: rogues are not even kings of instantkills anymore as bard does it better. Bard doesnt need to be in sneak and his instantkill has very high DC even if he does str-based.



So overall its not suprising rogue players complain.
- they are the only one melees without GOOD self heal options (scrolls dont count as good)
- they are not the kings of DPS - even single target dps, not to speak of AoE...
- they are the squishiest
- they have no good CC options
- they are no more best instantkillers
- their supposed "roguish" destiny is worse than other 2 dominating EDs and they do not have as good synergy with LD and DC as other classes


I'm not good at thinking up ways to deal with it, but I liked some suggestions from other players.
Rogue enhancements:
1. Add int to hit/dmg as a choice instead of dex but only to light weapons or kukri/dagger only.
2. Add insightful reflexes to the capstone
3. Poisons DC... it's useless in Epics and their effects are not even good. It will still be useless even if it goes with 10 + rog lvl + int mod. It needs to scale with assassinate items or something and have better effects.
4. We need some Crowd Control. ANY kind of CC. I believe paralyzis on 17+ crit with NO DC or assassinate based DC would be good addition and it would fit with venomed blades. Not as good as stuns or bard CC but always something...
5. Self heal. Rogues cant be the only class with no self heal in any tree... Maybe fit it somewhere in Shadowdancer because in heroics scrolls are enough. In Epics? Not really...


Shadowdancer:
Just revamp. Most of it. The only useful things right now are + DC to assassinate, darmor piercing, shadow form, full speed when sneaking and for dex staff builds Executioner's strike/shot, - but its not that great.
Shadow training doesnt even stack with rogue enhancements. Max core is a joke - we already have evasion, at like 2nd level... so you can grant as something as cool as evasion but not evasion.
Shadow manipulation would be fun if not for the fact that it annoys every other party member and and sometimes can stop a quest progression.
Consume would be fun if it ever worked as it should and if it didnt need you to take useless stuff to get it.
I dont think anyone EVER used the Epic Moment more than once in their roguee career - just to check how it looks because. 2d6 dmg? 2d6?
In addition melee power from Master Blitz gives you more sneak attack than whole SD tree.


So the point is not that rogue's got buff and we complain. We complain because even after buff they're probably the weakest melee class right now. Rogues (and btw monks too) need some love.

[CThruTheEgo]

I did some calcs to determine exactly what was the average damage per hit, per AP, assuming 100 melee power, of some of the damage enhancements. Here is what I found:

Average damage per hit, per AP spent, with 100 melee power:
venomed blades rank 1: 7.5 damage per hit
venomed blades rank 2: 3 damage per hit
venomed blades rank 3: 3 damage per hit
sneak attack training: 3.5 damage per hit
critical mastery 1 rank: 2 damage per hit
critical mastery 2 ranks: 2 damage per hit
critical mastery 3 ranks: 2 damage per hit
deadly strikes: 8.25 average damage per hit (4.125 if you count the AP spent on poison strikes also)

So the first rank of venomed blades offers the most return on investment. Ranks 2 and 3, however, are outclassed by sneak attack training. Critical mastery offers the worst return. It is interesting to note that critical mastery gives 2 average damage per hit per AP spent regardless of the number of ranks taken. So taking only the first rank will give you the same return on investment as full ranks. Of course your crits will be higher with full ranks, but the return on investment is the same regardless. Because it is a damage over time effect, bleed them out is more difficult to quantify. Needless to say, it is probably only useful against bosses that will live long enough for stacks to be built up.

For the sake of transparency, here are the specific calculations for anyone interested:
venomed blades rank 1: [2.5 average damage per hit * (200+100)/100 melee power]/1 AP=7.5 average damage per hit per AP
venomed blades rank 2: [1 average damage per hit * (200+100)/100 melee power]/1 AP=3 average damage per hit per AP
venomed blades rank 3: [1 average damage per hit * (200+100)/100 melee power]/1 AP=3 average damage per hit per AP
sneak attack training: [3.5 average damage per hit * (100+100)/100 melee power]/2 AP=3.5 average damage per hit per AP
critical mastery 1 rank: [(1 average damage per crit * 3 crit multiplier * 0.2 crit chance + 1 average damage per crit * 4 crit multiplier with overwhelming crit * 0.1 crit chance with overwhelming crit) * (100+100)/100 melee power]/1 AP=2 average damage per hit per AP
critical mastery 2 ranks: [(2 average damage per crit * 3 crit multiplier * 0.2 crit chance + 2 average damage per crit * 4 crit multiplier with overwhelming crit * 0.1 crit chance with overwhelming crit) * (100+100)/100 melee power]/2 AP=2 average damage per hit per AP
critical mastery 3 ranks: [(3 average damage per crit * 3 crit multiplier * 0.2 crit chance + 3 average damage per crit * 4 crit multiplier with overwhelming crit * 0.1 crit chance with overwhelming crit) * (100+100)/100 melee power]/3 AP=2 average damage per hit per AP
deadly strikes: [(5 damage per hit * 0.65 non crit chance + 5 damage per hit * 3 crit multiplier * 0.2 crit chance + 5 damage per hit * 4 crit multiplier with overwhelming crit * 0.1 crit chance with overwhelming crit) * (100 + 100)/100 melee power]/2 AP=8.25 average damage per hit per AP (4.125 if you also count the 2 AP spent on poison strikes)