Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Bobby88888]

But, assassins had far better DPS than barb, pally, bard before ED(U14).

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...onsidering-DPS

Yes, definitely, but I don't think giving my assassin 6k DPM or more to get in the same league is the right way to go, not to mention that all of this can't come from the Assassin tree, the EDs need to be rebalanced including a substantial buff to Shadowdancer. Which can include more DPS buffs but just lumping on more and more damage is the wrong way to go about this. Some damage? yes and it needs to be decent enough and Assassinate also needs to become the top insta kill again coupled with good to great damage and poor defences and heals.

But don't make Assassins 'easy'. As long as they don't become an easy button I can get over anything else, but an easy button is what we don't want.

[draven1]

But don't make Assassins 'easy'. As long as they don't become an easy button I can get over anything else, but an easy button is what we don't want.

Don't forget assassin's DPS is from sneak attack, not just facerolling.
I think assassin can't be easy button by any means except DPS UP for raw dmg with invincible defense(most easy buttons have these), not sneak attack.

[Bobby88888]

Don't forget assassin's DPS is from sneak attack, not just facerolling.
I think assassin can't be easy button by any means except DPS UP for raw dmg with invincible defense(most easy buttons have these), not sneak attack.

Not enough damage comes from SA, less than 1/3 and MP which seems to be what we are getting to boost DPS benefits normal damge more than SA damage as a result, though it would require a significant damage boost before we got into the 'easy' range due to the low survivability but I would prefer to see assassins as not necessarily the biggest damage by 28% but maybe similar to top damage with assassinate being the best insta kill. That balances out the no heals and poor defences I think. but some of that damage boost needs to come from EDs so Shadowdancer needs a buff (and make that one big ) to fix this problem, not just buffing the assassin tree.

but basically I mostly agree

[redoubt]

There is a lot of talk about how to improve assassin's without making them an easy button. Many of them center around improving sneak attack. So what is involved there and what would be balancing factors if SA was somehow boosted? Some I can think of include:

1. You can't have agro (generally, yes there are a few exceptions). SA damage goes to 0 if you pull agro.
2. Mob must be vulnerable to sneak attack. There are entire classes of mobs that are immune. This makes places where assassins are really good and places where they are really bad.
3. Mob must have less than 100% fort. Fortified mobs reduce SA damage by the amount of fort they have. You can build for bypass, but that is a design decision.
4. It is self regulating. For example, if you are in a boss beat down and getting really good SA damage and exceed the damage of the tank, you get agro and lose your SA damage. Now that your damage is reduced, the boss turns back around and attacks the tank again and your SA damage returns. There can be a disparity between the actual dps due to +/- threat, but it will reach a steady state point.

Having though about it some, I can see how adding power via SA is both fitting in style, but also balanced / held in check by its inherent mechanics. I could support going this direction as opposed to more base damage, crit adjustments or MP. Some idea have already been presented. Here are some as well (not all original):

1. SA scales with xxx MP
2. SA can crit

I think both of those are good ideas, but may be too easy to multi-class and I would prefer to tuck them deep into the assassin tree and tie them to knives:

1. Each core adds: SA damage scales with 10% melee power when using knives (values are cumulative within the assassin tree and do not stack with any enhancements outside the assassin tree.)
2. Each rank of SA adds: SA damage scales with 5% melee power when using knives (values are cumulative within the assassin tree and do not stack with any enhancements outside the assassin tree.)
3. Knife Specialization adds: SA damage scales with 20% melee power when using knives (values are cumulative within the assassin tree and do not stack with any enhancements outside the assassin tree.)
4. Deadly Shadow adds: When using knives, your SA damage is multiplied by your critical multiplier on a confirmed critical.

An assassin become even more of a binary killer. (i.e does great or terrible.) If playing with a great DPS+threat tank, the assassin's off tank DPS can skyrocket. If playing in a situation where the rogue has agro, DPS stays low. The problems (and solutions) to undead, constructs etc (mobs with total or high resistance to SA) remain unchanged.

I really wanted to see Lethality turn into an assassinate check for style and total DPS reasons, but I could get behind a change like this as well.

[Nothingtoseehere]

There is a lot of talk about how to improve assassin's without making them an easy button. Many of them center around improving sneak attack. So what is involved there and what would be balancing factors if SA was somehow boosted? Some I can think of include:

1. You can't have agro (generally, yes there are a few exceptions). SA damage goes to 0 if you pull agro.
2. Mob must be vulnerable to sneak attack. There are entire classes of mobs that are immune. This makes places where assassins are really good and places where they are really bad.
3. Mob must have less than 100% fort. Fortified mobs reduce SA damage by the amount of fort they have. You can build for bypass, but that is a design decision.
4. It is self regulating. For example, if you are in a boss beat down and getting really good SA damage and exceed the damage of the tank, you get agro and lose your SA damage. Now that your damage is reduced, the boss turns back around and attacks the tank again and your SA damage returns. There can be a disparity between the actual dps due to +/- threat, but it will reach a steady state point.

Having though about it some, I can see how adding power via SA is both fitting in style, but also balanced / held in check by its inherent mechanics. I could support going this direction as opposed to more base damage, crit adjustments or MP. Some idea have already been presented. Here are some as well (not all original):

1. SA scales with xxx MP
2. SA can crit

I think both of those are good ideas, but may be too easy to multi-class and I would prefer to tuck them deep into the assassin tree and tie them to knives:

1. Each core adds: SA damage scales with 10% melee power when using knives (values are cumulative within the assassin tree and do not stack with any enhancements outside the assassin tree.)
2. Each rank of SA adds: SA damage scales with 5% melee power when using knives (values are cumulative within the assassin tree and do not stack with any enhancements outside the assassin tree.)
3. Knife Specialization adds: SA damage scales with 20% melee power when using knives (values are cumulative within the assassin tree and do not stack with any enhancements outside the assassin tree.)
4. Deadly Shadow adds: When using knives, your SA damage is multiplied by your critical multiplier on a confirmed critical.

An assassin become even more of a binary killer. (i.e does great or terrible.) If playing with a great DPS+threat tank, the assassin's off tank DPS can skyrocket. If playing in a situation where the rogue has agro, DPS stays low. The problems (and solutions) to undead, constructs etc (mobs with total or high resistance to SA) remain unchanged.

I really wanted to see Lethality turn into an assassinate check for style and total DPS reasons, but I could get behind a change like this as well.

Some good ideas there.

I agree that SA damage is either a all or nothing thing which is why it is not only OK for it to be high SA damage, potentially the biggest damage in the game when a Rogue Assassin is SAing but at least up there, and due to all the conditions it can be the best DPS but being the best will get that agro and slow down that damage.

I dont know who suggested the SA crits and SA scaling first anymore but I know when I suggested them the intent was for core 5 and capstone sort of area since heroic is fine mostly and Epic is where the boost is more needed and to prevent splashing them. But the as you progress also works but has to be taken into account in terms of how other rogues might dip into the tree for those abilities.
Also adding more SA dice is another option that could be done in addition to or instead of some of the above.

Personally I am not keen on an assassinate on vorpal style thing since assassinate is a highly tactical ability and having it randomly trigger runs counter to that and by the time you get a vorpal it is more likely it will happen when the mob is on lower HP. But at this stage I will take anything I can get for core 5 but my preference is the SA crits. A random assassinate doesn't sit with my idea of the assassin but it is in keeping with the flavour of the current lethality, as is the SA crits but at least do something for Lethality. Please.

[draven1]

Some good ideas there.

I agree that SA damage is either a all or nothing thing which is why it is not only OK for it to be high SA damage, potentially the biggest damage in the game when a Rogue Assassin is SAing but at least up there, and due to all the conditions it can be the best DPS but being the best will get that agro and slow down that damage.

I dont know who suggested the SA crits and SA scaling first anymore but I know when I suggested them the intent was for core 5 and capstone sort of area since heroic is fine mostly and Epic is where the boost is more needed and to prevent splashing them. But the as you progress also works but has to be taken into account in terms of how other rogues might dip into the tree for those abilities.
Also adding more SA dice is another option that could be done in addition to or instead of some of the above.

Personally I am not keen on an assassinate on vorpal style thing since assassinate is a highly tactical ability and having it randomly trigger runs counter to that and by the time you get a vorpal it is more likely it will happen when the mob is on lower HP. But at this stage I will take anything I can get for core 5 but my preference is the SA crits. A random assassinate doesn't sit with my idea of the assassin but it is in keeping with the flavour of the current lethality, as is the SA crits but at least do something for Lethality. Please.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...mage-crittable

I suggested SA crits first on suggestion & this thread.
The intent was giving competent DPS to assassin for epics, but, "core 6 : deadly shadow" have many good things now.
So, I think "core 5: lethality" is the place to have SA crit. It really fits well for its flavor.
Sneak attack crit will give real "Lethality" for assassins.

IMO, assassinate on vorpal would be over-powered if they have practical DC or useless if they don't have it.
Many on vorpal-like instakills(vorpal, nightmare, WoP) had been nerfed in DDO history.
Because it was too good, devs nerfed it to useless level.

Assassinate is very tactical ability, that's not for auto-attack.
If assassins need more instakills besides assassinate, we can focus on "Execute" in assassin enhancement & "Executioner's Strike", "Consume" in shadowdancer.
Those need some serious love. Especially for "Execute". It had a buff on this revamp, but still very very weak.
I would like it if "Execute" have some kind of "Exalted smite evil"-like ability.

Execute (cooldown 12 sec):
On 30% hp mob, gaining twice your Int or Dex bonus and a damage bonus based on your rogue level.
Adds +1/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier and 0/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical threat range.
Some damage portion may need some adjustment, because usual assassins use very low base weapon damage weapon(1d4).
Or Knife Specialization can have some damage boost like making 1d4 to 1d6 or 1d8 or 2d4.

[redoubt]

Personally I am not keen on an assassinate on vorpal style thing since assassinate is a highly tactical ability and having it randomly trigger runs counter to that and by the time you get a vorpal it is more likely it will happen when the mob is on lower HP. But at this stage I will take anything I can get for core 5 but my preference is the SA crits. A random assassinate doesn't sit with my idea of the assassin but it is in keeping with the flavour of the current lethality, as is the SA crits but at least do something for Lethality. Please.

IMO, assassinate on vorpal would be over-powered if they have practical DC or useless if they don't have it.
Many on vorpal-like instakills(vorpal, nightmare, WoP) had been nerfed in DDO history.
Because it was too good, devs nerfed it to useless level.

I just wanted to clarify that the idea I was pushing for Lethality (assassinate on vorpal) still requires it to be a sneak attack and for the DC to pass (and likely without the boost from MtF since you may not be in sneak) and has a cool down timer equal to that of assassinate, so it would not be on every vorpal.

[Full_Bleed]

I figure this is the perfect place to put new ideas/requests if we want them to be "overlooked" at this point, so here goes...


I think that the 10d6 additional sneak damage from a failed Assassination attempt is legacy and should scale better in epic levels.

I also think that replacing that with a more substantial bleed effect might be an even better option. The strength of the bleed could even be based on the assassination attempt itself by scaling it off of how close to killing the target you were. That is, a kill shot that is missed by 1 would produce the highest possible bleed with a lower base point on a larger fail.


Basically, I think being able to get more out of assassination (even on fail) is more thematic, will give it more utility, and makes it more fun to use.

[Chaios]

The strength of the bleed could even be based on the assassination attempt itself by scaling it off of how close to killing the target you were. That is, a kill shot that is missed by 1 would produce the highest possible bleed with a lower base point on a larger fail.


Basically, I think being able to get more out of assassination (even on fail) is more thematic, will give it more utility, and makes it more fun to use.

That's a cool idea, especially scaling it off the die roll. Only request: Describe how it interacts with mobs that are immune to Assassinate but not SA.

[redoubt]

We all love that this is a fast moving combat game, but that leaves little time to target a monster and examine it before attacking. Even if you do that, as an assassin looking for DeathWard, it could be hidden under the EpicWard icon.

Could you make it so that when you have at least one stack of MTF, any mob immune to assassinate has a DW icon displayed for us?

[Chaios]

We all love that this is a fast moving combat game, but that leaves little time to target a monster and examine it before attacking. Even if you do that, as an assassin looking for DeathWard, it could be hidden under the EpicWard icon.

Could you make it so that when you have at least one stack of MTF, any mob immune to assassinate has a DW icon displayed for us?

Icons for all effects should be made to appear in the focus orb anyway... But really, DW/DB don't prevent Trap the Soul, why should they prevent Assassinate?

[nokowi]

There are some good ideas here.

Just a quick reminder that with the new shiv, rogues will be getting SA almost all the time regardless of agro. The old mechanics of getting agro and losing SA thus don't really apply any more. To me, this is a "loss of skill" change. I would prefer much higher damage with SA, and having to use intelligent gameplay (who you attack) or build choices (threat reduction) to get that high damage.

Ideally SA would be situational with assassins having top single target DPS (not including undead, constructs, etc). Other builds would still laugh at assassin DPS against multiple mobs with their AoE and their toughness and crowd control to handle multiple mobs.

If you boost only SA to get assassin into high DPS range, then crits become neutered as a damage spike. Crits already have an unusually low damage spike, because only the non-SA portion is multiplied.

I would also recommend some thought into how player power changes with level. Some of the proposed ideas give all of the power at level 20, instead of having a power progression as you level.

[Saekee]

There are some good ideas here.

Just a quick reminder that with the new shiv, rogues will be getting SA almost all the time regardless of agro. The old mechanics of getting agro and losing SA thus don't really apply any more. To me, this is a "loss of skill" change. I would prefer much higher damage with SA, and having to use intelligent gameplay (who you attack) or build choices (threat reduction) to get that high damage.

Ideally SA would be situational with assassins having top single target DPS (not including undead, constructs, etc). Other builds would still laugh at assassin DPS against multiple mobs with their AoE and their toughness and crowd control to handle multiple mobs.

If you boost only SA to get assassin into high DPS range, then crits become neutered as a damage spike. Crits already have an unusually low damage spike, because only the non-SA portion is multiplied.

I would also recommend some thought into how player power changes with level. Some of the proposed ideas give all of the power at level 20, instead of having a power progression as you level.

I agree--I think in general the idea of TWF as having high single target damage is part of the issue and I am glad that there are changes coming in U25 to add MP to the TWF line.

Another change that will greatly aid rogues is to allow the full stat damage in the offhand for Int and Dex builds (instead of just 1/2). There was a brief period in which this was the case but it was not WAI so they changed it.

Funny note-I remember in the past using bluff on a mob--so they turn the other way--and then having a deception proc (which also rotates them) but make them face me again and I get smacked. This was a while ago--anyone else have this happen recently? If so, I wonder if this will be one of those bizarre side effects of shiv.

[Full_Bleed]

Could you make it so that when you have at least one stack of MTF, any mob immune to assassinate has a DW icon displayed for us?

Interesting idea. If it is visible under examine it would be great it we had a visible icon. Much more useful.

[Full_Bleed]

Just a quick reminder that with the new shiv, rogues will be getting SA almost all the time regardless of agro. The old mechanics of getting agro and losing SA thus don't really apply any more. To me, this is a "loss of skill" change. I would prefer much higher damage with SA, and having to use intelligent gameplay (who you attack) or build choices (threat reduction) to get that high damage.

This is dangerously close to calling the new Shiv an "easy button"... I'd prefer we'd not go there because it's all perspective. For example, bluff is a really useful tool, but given the long animation it was seriously underutilized (like assassins trick), especially in group situations. Putting it in our attack tool box gives us options we didn't have before and is, potentially, useful for survivability (which rogues really need).

Sure it, theoretically, makes getting SA against a single target far more likely (like a greensteel radiance item, deception, improved deception, shadow daggers, & blinding fear items do, etc... i.e. if you had the right equipment you already had that benefit to begin with, didn't you?) But that doesn't tell the whole story. If you want to inject more "skill" into the action, I suggest you take on more aggro and targets. You want to be "safe" just stick with one and try to rely on shiv. Less skilled rogues *will* play it safe. Higher skill assassins will develop new tactics to better survive while juggling more enemies and more aggro effectively. So I can, alternatively, see this as a "High Skill" buff giving me more combat and survivability options if used properly. I will certainly get more out of it than some first-lifer or some TR-looky-loo just burning through their rogue life onto the next one.

One more perspective: What Shiv is now is a kind of usable "Improved Feint"--something more rogues would build for in this game if the real-time mechanics properly supported it.

If you boost only SA to get assassin into high DPS range, then crits become neutered as a damage spike. Crits already have an unusually low damage spike, because only the non-SA portion is multiplied.

The devs seem very reticent to give us crits on SA. But if we're looking for more spike damage, maybe they would consider adding it to the MtF "surprise attack" window. Or maybe allow us to crit on SA if a target is bleeding. Allow the sneak damage from a failed Assassination be critable. Etc.

If we can find some conditional applications of crit on SA damage to get spikes then maybe they would warm up to the idea.

[databass]

An important part of the DDO multi-class system is attribute synergies so most of the attribute requirements will stay in place. Unless they don't make thematic sense. I can see the argument, as an example, that Sweeping Strikes might use the better of Dexterity or Strength since the tree is Dexterity based.



We don't. We don't want the abilities to be the same, or even necessarily equivalent. We'd rather look at the tree and class as a whole. Bards have to land a control effect but they have an advantages with the Coup De Grace DC. They have support spells but don't have stealth or 15d6 of Sneak Attack.

Sev~

I really don't understand why people are complaining that these changes aren't enough. Rogues are not meant to be primary damage dealers or tanks, they are support/specialists! My first life level 28 rogue has over 700hp, max dodge, enough UMD to use any magic item, high enough saves to almost never fail one, can sneak past anything with care, and can open/disable any lock/trap. The only gripes I have are the slow sneaking and the fact that assassinate doesn't seem to work as well as it should with DC of over 60 (with current gear/abilities I think it's about 65 max). IMO, assassinate should work on anything except bosses or red names that can make a save against it. Additionally, I think that being struck by a random ranged attack shouldn't break sneak when it's well over 100 in both Hide and Move Silently. BTW, Sev, my rogue has 29d6 sneak attack damage, nearly double what you're saying. A good rogue can annihilate any single target without the use of assassinate with an improved deception item and weapon and practically not get hit at all. Rogues were not meant for taking on mobs! If you solo a rogue you should be sneaking/bluffing and never taking on multiple enemies!

[CThruTheEgo]

I really don't understand why people are complaining that these changes aren't enough. Rogues are not meant to be primary damage dealers or tanks, they are support/specialists! My first life level 28 rogue has over 700hp, max dodge, enough UMD to use any magic item, high enough saves to almost never fail one, can sneak past anything with care, and can open/disable any lock/trap. The only gripes I have are the slow sneaking and the fact that assassinate doesn't seem to work as well as it should with DC of over 60 (with current gear/abilities I think it's about 65 max). IMO, assassinate should work on anything except bosses or red names that can make a save against it. Additionally, I think that being struck by a random ranged attack shouldn't break sneak when it's well over 100 in both Hide and Move Silently. BTW, Sev, my rogue has 29d6 sneak attack damage, nearly double what you're saying. A good rogue can annihilate any single target without the use of assassinate with an improved deception item and weapon and practically not get hit at all. Rogues were not meant for taking on mobs! If you solo a rogue you should be sneaking/bluffing and never taking on multiple enemies!

Back when the level cap was 20, assassins were the top single target dps when getting sneak attack damage, and by a pretty wide margin, as can be seen in the dps chart linked above. So there is a definite precedent for them being top dps. This was balanced by the fact that they had mediocre self healing and poor defenses. Today assassins have low dps compared to the other revamped classes, the worst defenses of any other melee, and the second worst self healing of any other melee (second only to fighters), and it looks like the revamp is not going to change this situation. All the other stuff you pointed out – UMD, trapping, sneaking – does not come close to making up for these shortcomings. That's where the complaints are coming from. Assassins need to do something exceptionally well to offset the poor defenses and self healing they have, and that something should be single target dps. The 29d6 sneak attack damage they get is nothing compared to an indestructible paladin that does 5k dps.

That said, it's going live today so we will find out shortly exactly how things have changed or not.

[dualscissors]

I really don't understand why people are complaining that these changes aren't enough. Rogues are not meant to be primary damage dealers or tanks...

I can agree on the tank part, but going back to every version of D&D pen/paper that has ever existed, they are absolutely primary damage dealers via sneak damage. Raw bruiser classes have nothing akin to +(lots)d6 sneak damage in the game's origins.

[redoubt]

I really don't understand why people are complaining that these changes aren't enough.

Maybe I can help explain. Part of it is because, while the biggest group of rogue advocates here on the forum completely agree that:

Rogues are not meant to be primary damage dealers or tanks, they are support/specialists!

We tend to believe that in some situations, like working off-tank while getting full SA, rogues are meant to be super DPS. Then add that:

My first life level 28 rogue has over 700hp, max dodge, enough UMD to use any magic item, high enough saves to almost never fail one, can sneak past anything with care, and can open/disable any lock/trap.

but any 1st life paladin, bard or barbarian can do ALL of that (minus traps) and do it better. The paladin will use PRR/MRR instead of dodge and evasion and take less damage, have just as much UMD from high CHA, have many more HP and never fail saves and doesn't care about sneaking past mobs. The bard and barb can do it with heavy armor or do it the rogue way and do just as well.

We are upset because none of the stuff you listed there that makes your first life rogue special, is actually special to a rogue. Not even the traps, think artificer and 1 rogue splashes...

Then you even list many of the things which we believed should be included in this pass, but were not:

The only gripes I have are the slow sneaking and the fact that assassinate doesn't seem to work as well as it should with DC of over 60 (with current gear/abilities I think it's about 65 max). IMO, assassinate should work on anything except bosses or red names that can make a save against it. Additionally, I think that being struck by a random ranged attack shouldn't break sneak when it's well over 100 in both Hide and Move Silently. BTW, Sev, my rogue has 29d6 sneak attack damage, nearly double what you're saying. A good rogue can annihilate any single target without the use of assassinate with an improved deception item and weapon and practically not get hit at all. Rogues were not meant for taking on mobs! If you solo a rogue you should be sneaking/bluffing and never taking on multiple enemies!

While a good rogue can annihilate any single target in low level heroic, running an assassin in EE is very dangerous. Even EH can get sketchy. And yes, you should be bluff pulling etc... what do you do about the plethora of epic warded mobs that can't be assassinated because they somehow have DW/DB tucked under it so you can't even examine they to see if they can be assassinated? What do you do about champs with fort bypass and true seeing when you are alone? How do you beat down mini-bosses that are immune when there are respawning trash?

Your list of questions and things you see as issues are on the mark. Its those sorts of things as well as needing to work out ways to deal with the types of questions I ask here at the end. They need to be addressed in a way that preserves the flavor of rogues, not with blanket melee power.

Does that help explain why many of us are complaining that it is not done yet? (BTW, we just entered the rogue pass beta test, because even Severlin has said its not done and they will be evaluating it for the next few weeks for a patch to come.)

[dualscissors]

From ddowiki:

*Poison Strikes: Select one of three poisonous attacks. These attacks apply an "Assassin's Mark" to an opponent for 10 seconds on hit, enabling

*Weakening Strikes and Deadly Strikes (see below) to effect that opponent. (Cooldown: 6 seconds): Heartseeker Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 fort save (stacks 5 times), On Crit: 1d6 Con damage, On vorpal: Heartseeker (-5% hit points, Fort save to negate DC 10 + half Rogue level + INT modifier)

*Ice Chill Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 reflex save (stacks 5 times), On Crit: 1d6 Dex damage, On vorpal: Paralysis (Fort DC 10 + half Rogue level + INT modifier negates, 25% chance for additional save when the affected creature is damaged)

*Soulshatter Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 Will save (stacks 5 times), on Crit: 1d6 Wis damage, on Vorpal: Shattermantle (-100 Spell Resistance for 10 seconds; Will save to negate, DC 10 + half Rogue level + INT modifier)




First off, I enjoyed many of the changes in the rogue pass!

I wanted to address one of the changes to the Assassin enhancement. I am guessing that with Poison Strikes you simply need to make a successful attack to land your "Assassin's Mark." You don't need to achieve the DC for the Mark, correct?

If landing the Mark simply means not missing with the attack, this becomes tolerable.

It's far from reasonable, however, to expect anyone to ever land the poison's intended procs. The DC is absurd: 10 + 10 + 26 = 46 vs. save, which isn't going to hit any mob in Epic content.

I thought at one point a Dev suggested the Poison Strikes DCs would be brought in line with the current game. Are Poison Strikes really being left at 10 + 1/2 rogue level DCs!?