Rogue - Assassin Changes

[HuneyMunster]

Assassinate DC is pretty close I think. The proposed changes make it a little higher already.

I do like the idea of some sort of mid-epic bump. There are DC augments at 20 and 24 already. What about adding assassinate to that list?

The augment color also should not be red as some people already need to use red for devotion aug for rejuv. Should most probably be yellow (same as caster).

[CThruTheEgo]

The augment color also should not be red as some people already need to use red for devotion aug for rejuv. Should most probably be yellow (same as caster).

Agreed.

[Saekee]

Only if by lower levels, you mean 1-3. After that, it's really not.

Yes--levels 1-3. For alternate stat toons lime dex for dmg or int for damage it can be a little, especially if they dumped STR in order to max the others

I recently ran all of korthos on elite (no gear, no guild buffs) on a first life rogue (solo with hire). I never died. I am unsure why our experiences are so different.

I have to disagree with your statements. Low levels are where players learn skills like not getting agro, equipping gear, who to attack, etc. Making things easier at low levels is not going to prepare players for the skills they need at higher levels. There are settings like hard/normal for less skilled/geared players.

EDIT: I think I actually recorded these runs. I haven't had the chance to edit them with advice for new players yet.

I was careless--ran into quests at level 1, no gear whatsoever and yes, no ship buffs, not even a hireling and acted incautious. The 'ding' sound was merited--was impatient to advance, stupid of me.

I think a first life dex or Int based rogue will still have a very rough time in those first few levels. Nokowi I agree with you et al that it is a good time to experience teamwork but my suggestions are meant as minor compensation for that early fresh-out-of-the-womb phase for new non-TR builds and new players (who will not know the quests).

[Saekee]

Severlin,

You have 3 of the best known rogue advocates. . .

thx redoubt but I can't place myself in the knowledge set of Cthru and Nokowi--my focus has been on stealth builds that use rogue as part of their skill set and not a pure assassin per se (shadow veil has spoiled me). My suggestions in this thread have been away from endgame and more like midgame and other lower level stuff to which I am acquainted.

[Full_Bleed]

So what exactly do you think an assassin is forced to give up by having to invest heavily into int

Not a good question. I've spent all of my AP wisely. Spending more on INT does not provide a worthy return for what I'd give up. I'd be a marginally better assassinator, and worse in a lot of other ways.

I'll try one more tact with you on this and then move on as your position will have been illustrated to be entrenched.

If there was an Assassin Focus Feat that only provided +1 DC, would anyone take it? My answer is "no". It would probably have to be more like +3 for anyone to take it because the return is not there. Yet, other DC builds almost always take their +1 DC focus Feats because the value of the return is significant. Likewise, the chance of an Assassin taking a stat feat is zero. And, granted, while it's unlikely for other DC builds/classes to "waste" a feat on a stat, it is more likely.

and how is that different than other DC based builds (excluding coup de grace, of course, because it's already been pointed out that it is an outlier)?

Asked and answered. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it wrong. Not going to rehash it. You say they get the same for their dollar as other DC builds and I say they don't. We are obviously weighing things *very* differently.

Add 1 more int from level ups, 2 int from an int 11 item (2 of which are easily obtained from epic Necropolis),

I accounted for this. And I will have to take your word on being handed the +11 item in the perfect slot as I enter the Necropolis, though I haven't run epic necro yet to confirm myself (hopefully, soon though).

2 assassinate DC from Epic Muffled Veneer (this is easy to obtain, no reason to expect that this should not be expected),

Should NOT be expected. We will one-and-done that adventure when we come to it (maybe I can convince the others to two-and-done it to give me a better chance, but it's not like they don't have things they want, too, and not like it will be any more guaranteed). If it drops, I'll have it. But I'm not counting on it and neither should you be counting on *everyone* else having it. I won't even get into how it's possible that not everyone has necro or how rogues, in particular, might HATE running that quest to begin with. If they (and you) want to count on people being able to get that bonus, it should drop on more things like Spell Focus drops on zillions of things for caster builds (not to mention having augments). Why the assassinate DC bonus is soooo much more rare is beyond me.

Example: We just ran EE Madstone last night. The Iron Beads and Axe of Adaxus dropped. Great for the Sorc (the axe has no value to us). We considered that a rousing success. We rarely see named gear very much. Last thing was a Jeweled Cloak for the cleric a couple weeks ago. Good for her! But, frankly, unlike some people on the forums, our experience doesn't lead us to expect to have any named gear. We get what we get playing the game.

and 5 DCs from measure the foe

Knew I'd leave something out and you guys would pounce. So, yes, of course I'm using MtF.

and you're at a DC of 66 at endgame. That's not weak. Your assassinate will be useless only in EE Stormhorns.

And ToEE and everything else that comes out after it.

Not going to apologize for wanting to be assassinate viable in those adventures. I still maintain that the ability isn't OP, game breaking, or an easy button. It's just an iconic part of the character. Maybe even the core point of the character. And I think it's obvious that if the devs want "normal" players to be able to use it in their later content something needs to change... and telling us that it's easily achievable with minimal effort, and "is in a good place" just isn't true.

I'm not really seeing the problem here and this is why I say you are exaggerating.

If I was exaggerating I wouldn't have a case and I'd be no-fail assassinating already. I'm not doing either.

Throw in 3 DCs from 6 int in shadowdancer and you're at 69.

Already explained why counting this isn't right.

Add another 2 from the new capstone once that goes live and you're at 71.

Accounted for this.

Yes, this is about where DCs start to ramp up. The lack of DC increases in mid epic levels is a problem that others have pointed out already, Nibel in particular if I remember correctly. The fact that assassinate DC throughout heroics, early epics, and endgame (if built for it, which should require building for imo) are sufficient means the problem is not with the DC, but the lack of increase in mid epic levels where mob DCs start to rise dramatically but gear and other bonuses do not.

Well, I already explained how many could have substantially lower INT than even I do and I find the attempts to minimize those facts weak. But I'll set that aside, and just acknowledge consensus on the issue at "mid epic levels". And, trust me, if it's an issue for "you" guys, it's a bigger issues for guys like me... and those "below" me (which I bet is more than you think).

We have a +2 DC item available at 20 (Epic Midnight Greetings) but I'm not advocating that as sufficient.

Good, because I'm not going to farm for it.

+1 exceptional stat augments are available from the epic trader in the Twelve for 20 tokens. This should be expected because it's really easy to get 20 epic tokens.

And, yet, I bet many "normal" players have neither 20 epic tokens sitting in their bags or have picked up a +1 exceptional augment along the way. By the time they can use the +1 augment, they have to decide if farming for 20 epic tokens is *worth* it for .5 DC or if their time might be better spent elsewhere. I'm of the opinion that they may very reasonably have their sights elsewhere at that point. I'm level 24 and have only run like one adventure that drop fragments so far. Not to mention that the only timely way to get the tokens is to farm Cannith Challenges, which not everyone has, likes, or would think farming for would give them a better return than farming for other T3 cannith gear or something else in the game. My point being, is that it (like other stuff you guys take for granted) should *NOT* be expected. "Available and attainable", yes. "Expected and the best return for the time spent", probably not. If it's expected, they should put it on the GH vendors or at least on the MR vendors. Both would increase adoption if it's going to be "assumed" gear. But it seems pretty obvious to me that they don't want it to be as available given their treatment of it. Which is fine, because (to answer a question you later pose), there should be things in the game that require a little more effort to get. But, again, once you do that you can't assume that everyone has it. You need to adjust your "everyone has this DC and that INT" bar accordingly.

Human is an option available to all and is only 3 int behind drow.

Uneeded info. Yes, their are two INT optimal starting races. But the point still stands. Not everyone will be using those and it should also not be "expected" or considered part of the "easily attainable" thresholds.

No, but +3 tomes are readily available and if you're goal is endgame, then obtaining a +3 tome for any DC stat on a DC based build should be expected by this point in the game's history. Yes, they really are that easy to come by. I see +3 tomes on the plat auction house for a few hundred thousand plat often enough. A first life, brand new player can come up with this if they put a little effort into it.

Uneeded info. You know the point was that I don't *expect* people to have +5 tomes, so I don't expect everyone to have my INT. As for the +3 tomes, I agree, totally worth the AH purchase. I hope people are at least biting the bullet on that one... heck, if they are lucky and are sitting on the plat, I hope they look to snipe a 2.1 million 3-4 upgrade tome... they pop in now and again. But, unlike others, I won't assume that they'll get one to drop, have the plat, get the necessary first bid on one, or that all servers are the same (I have my doubts about Wayfinder, for example).

All of these things really are minimal effort. Do they require some effort? Yes. But not much, and if you intend to play at endgame, this is all a pretty small effort to be able to get there. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are saying that players who simply don't feel like making these kind of small efforts to improve their build, should still be able to get into endgame and be successful. That's why I drew the conclusion that you are looking for an easy button. But please, correct me if I'm wrong. Do you think this kind of minimal effort should not be required to perform well in the most difficult content?

Effort isn't the only consideration. If you can't see that I can't make it any more clear. I've indicated above where I think you're wrong. I've acknowledged what's doable. But, at the end of the day, that only gets to where I am... which isn't enough.

There's nothing wrong with your build. Your DC is fine and will continue to improve as you approach cap. That's why I'm not really understanding where you're coming from. You are hitting the doldrums of mid epic levels, but I've already addressed that problem and solution.

And we have differing ideas about the solution. Your solution is not my solution. You believe that assassination is the sacred cow of the class to be protected and nurtured and effective only with the highest level of investment (which, inevitably ends up being gear dependent and contrary to how I see many people playing the game). I find it to be no more sacred that QP is for a Monk. I believe assassinate should be a feather in the quiver and that it is unworthy of the weight, rarity, or sacrifices that have been attributed to attaining near no-fail (let alone, no-fail itself). You say I'm exaggerating and I say you're ignoring how the game is played by the so-called 95% because it's not convenient to where you want to see the class go without acknowledging that your baseline is *not* representative of the masses.

The solution is not simply to add more DCs.

And, yet, that would help solve "my problem" and the problem of a whole lot of other assassins with respect to having a viable assassination DC. Just look at the ToEE assassin thread. Small sample size, but not unexpected results. Didn't take a seer to KNOW that's what was going to happen. What doesn't work in Stormhorns is not likely to work in the Temple or anything moving forward.

What makes you think I have maxed destinies?

Because you (and others) are pretty comfortable assuming that all rogues will have more assassination help from Shadowdancer that a Stealth twist when most people without max destinies or who are ERing actually get to spend very little time in their preferred destiny. Heck some people even go so far as to mention twisting INT sometimes to help make up for it (which I also think is absurd).

But again, the problem you are pointing to is a problem with the whole epic destiny and ETR system and has been a common complaint since it was introduced. The karma system was meant to minimize that problem to some degree, but it does not solve the problem entirely. This is a problem that nearly all builds face. It is not a problem with assassinate DC and simply adding more DCs is not the solution. Building/adjusting class based enhancements around a system which is inherently problematic is not a good solution period.

Well, we're not here fixing ER or ED. That's above my pay grade and the scope of this thread. We're not even allowed to touch TWF. So I'm going to work with what's in front of me and not make assumptions about things that may or may not get fixed in the future. Just like I'm not going to assume I'm going to get certain gear or that everyone has all the stuff I have. But I'm also not going to sit back and let others set bars and state "facts" that don't reflect what I'm seeing in the game just because they are proliferate posters and well know players of a particular class. The devs need some alternate views from people who also know how to play the game but are coming to some very different conclusions.

Yet another problem that does not lie with assassinate, but with other aspects of the game. Now that they turned bards, barbs, and paladins into uber-classes, they are now faced with the problem of balancing content both for those classes, and the others which were left light years behind them. The further revamps are intended to bring the other classes up to speed. At least that's what I thought they were intended for, but if assassin goes through as it currently is, I'm going to question whether that's actually the case.

Me too. And, frankly, if I can get a 50% assassination success rate in EE ToEE and future content playing the way I play, along with the convenience adjustments they've made so far, I'll be happier than I am right now. You can still have your no-fail assassinate and be twice the assassin, I'm sure you've earned it. Heck, I even hope you get your extra SA dice and shorter assassination timer if that's what you think your assassin needs... for all I know, maybe you do in the circles you run.

At this point, I'm willing to pay reasonable AP's for my needs (not 4 APs for a single DC though)? You willing to pay AP's for yours?

[Shadow_Jumper]

But I'll humor you for a minute though just to show what I believe is a "reasonable" playable INT:

Currently @ Level 24 Drow Pure Rogue

Base: 25
19 Start
6 Level Ups

Tome: +5

Feats & Enhancements: +8
+6 Enhancement Trees
+2 Capstone

Items & Effects: +15
+9 INT Helm
+3 Insightful INT (Epic Spy Glass)
+1 INT Exceptional Diamond
+2 Ship

Total INT: 53

Stealthy Twisted (of course).

Current Assassinate DC 57.

Latest place that assassinate wasn't reliable: EE GH

First, let me count the ways that I don't think I'm even representative of every rogue in the game. Not all will have the Epic Spyglass (some don't like the event, haven't played the event, didn't play it enough, don't know about it, or just have another trinket they're happy with for one reason or another). Not everyone is in a guild with the +2 INT (I see plenty of low level guilds and un-guilded players in the game). Not everyone goes out of their way to slot one of the dozens of +1 exceptional INT augments they've got laying around (I know, silly, huh?). Not everyone is Drow and can start with a 19 or 20 INT. Not everyone has a +5 tome.

You can get +5 from measure the foe, another 1 DC from having a +11 int item. Another 2 DC from epic muffled veneer.

That's +8 DC right there, and you can still go farther.

1 DC from epic litany, +2 DC from a mythic muffled veneer, and 1 DC from yugo potions.

That's a 69 DC for you right there.

You mentioned not being on Shadowdancer ED, if not, then the 6 INT could get you another 3 DC, and since bards are everywhere now, another +1 from inspiration.

Now you are at 73 DC.

[brzytki]

After reading your post i've got the impression that you want to have near no-fail assassinate DC in highest lvl content while running in off-destiny AND not putting much effort into equipment. A few quotes below that give such a feeling.

Should NOT be expected. We will one-and-done that adventure when we come to it (maybe I can convince the others to two-and-done it to give me a better chance, but it's not like they don't have things they want, too, and not like it will be any more guaranteed). If it drops, I'll have it. But I'm not counting on it and neither should you be counting on *everyone* else having it. I won't even get into how it's possible that not everyone has necro or how rogues, in particular, might HATE running that quest to begin with. If they (and you) want to count on people being able to get that bonus, it should drop on more things like Spell Focus drops on zillions of things for caster builds (not to mention having augments). Why the assassinate DC bonus is soooo much more rare is beyond me.

While i too think that the assassinate DC bonus should be available on a few more items, i can easily tell you why SF is so "popular" on items: assassinate DC works for 1 ability from 1 PrE, while SF works on zillions of things for caster builds.

Not going to apologize for wanting to be assassinate viable in those adventures. I still maintain that the ability isn't OP, game breaking, or an easy button. It's just an iconic part of the character. Maybe even the core point of the character. And I think it's obvious that if the devs want "normal" players to be able to use it in their later content something needs to change... and telling us that it's easily achievable with minimal effort, and "is in a good place" just isn't true.

It's easily achievable with minimal effort even for new content. Just switch the setting from EE to EH. If you want to have near no-fail DC in EE new content, you should put considerably more effort trying to build up your DC. That's the same thing with DC casters.

If I was exaggerating I wouldn't have a case and I'd be no-fail assassinating already. I'm not doing either.

Let's face it, from your own breakdown we know that you'd get 65 DC (w/ MtF) at level 28. I'd say that's a really good DC considering the choice of running in off-destiny, lack of epic litany, +6 tome, mythic veneer/necklace, pots.

And we have differing ideas about the solution. Your solution is not my solution. You believe that assassination is the sacred cow of the class to be protected and nurtured and effective only with the highest level of investment (which, inevitably ends up being gear dependent and contrary to how I see many people playing the game). I find it to be no more sacred that QP is for a Monk. I believe assassinate should be a feather in the quiver and that it is unworthy of the weight, rarity, or sacrifices that have been attributed to attaining near no-fail (let alone, no-fail itself). You say I'm exaggerating and I say you're ignoring how the game is played by the so-called 95% because it's not convenient to where you want to see the class go without acknowledging that your baseline is *not* representative of the masses.

Aren't DC casters gear dependent as well? Or tactics melees? If you make near no-fail DC easily attainable without the need of DC gear, what are players suppose to run new quests for? If 1st life caster with no gear can have similar no-fail DC as fully decked-out one, where is the incentive to play, apart from challenge/fun? One of the biggest incentives is to improve your character.

And, yet, that would help solve "my problem" and the problem of a whole lot of other assassins with respect to having a viable assassination DC. Just look at the ToEE assassin thread. Small sample size, but not unexpected results. Didn't take a seer to KNOW that's what was going to happen. What doesn't work in Stormhorns is not likely to work in the Temple or anything moving forward.

Yes, because your problem is not really a problem. You are running in off-destiny, don't have the gear but feel entitled to have near no-fail DC in the newest EE content. With 65 DC (when you get epic veneer and +11 item) and +2 from improved capstone, you'll have 67 DC and i can guarantee you will have near no-fail DC in EH ToEE. After the recent updated to Lama, i went there on EE with my 74 DC and i regularly assassinated 2 mobs at once (humans, orcs, etc.), not no-fail but close. That means they significantly lowered the saves across the board. Now, if you want to have near no-fail DC in the EE Temple (which is lvl 32 quest, mind you), you need to put more effort into your DC, meaning some better gear from previous updates to the game.

Me too. And, frankly, if I can get a 50% assassination success rate in EE ToEE and future content playing the way I play, along with the convenience adjustments they've made so far, I'll be happier than I am right now. You can still have your no-fail assassinate and be twice the assassin, I'm sure you've earned it. Heck, I even hope you get your extra SA dice and shorter assassination timer if that's what you think your assassin needs... for all I know, maybe you do in the circles you run.

That's just being greedy.

I don't really know if it's supposed to be an insult or compliment. Had it been directed at me, i'd take it as a compliment because i run with people who want to improve their characters and run toughest quests in game. I want to have a feeling that the group is better with me than with another barb/bard/pally. As i said earlier, EE is not for everyone and you shouldn't feel as if you ought to be able to perform excellently there on characters with little effort to push their DCs up.

[Delacroix21]

I agree with General Gronker and nokowi; I am really not seeing an issue with Assassin in the earlier heroic levels. My concern is more overall DPS later on.

Sev~

It's not just assassins whose dps is lacking, but all rogues. A big part is sneak attack (the key feature of rogues) does not scale well in epic levels.


When you first added Melee power I tested a rogue on Lammania and I thought it (and the sneak attacks) performed well. Then Melee power was nerfed and I saw the reduction in both base damage and sneak attack made the rogue underperform.


Sev, perhaps we should increase the effect of Melee and ranged power on sneak attacks? Maybe go from 100% to 150%? (So 50 melee power would be considered 75 Melee power for the sneak attack damage only). Rogues main source of damage should be from sneak attack, and flanking and bypassing fort should be their top priority.

[CThruTheEgo]

It's not just assassins whose dps is lacking, but all rogues. A big part is sneak attack (the key feature of rogues) does not scale well in epic levels.


When you first added Melee power I tested a rogue on Lammania and I thought it (and the sneak attacks) performed well. Then Melee power was nerfed and I saw the reduction in both base damage and sneak attack made the rogue underperform.


Sev, perhaps we should increase the effect of Melee and ranged power on sneak attacks? Maybe go from 100% to 150%? (So 50 melee power would be considered 75 Melee power for the sneak attack damage only). Rogues main source of damage should be from sneak attack, and flanking and bypassing fort should be their top priority.

I would agree that this is really the simplest way to improve rogue dps. However, simply increasing the effect of melee power on sneak attack damage would effectively buff every other melee that uses any amount of sneak attack damage, even from items. To avoid this, it might be a good idea to include this as part of the cores, but put it in each tree so all types of rogues can benefit from it. This would also have the benefit that they could offer different amounts based on how much each tree's dps needs a boost. Maybe 150% for mechanics, 175% for acrobats, and 200% for assassins, for example. Putting it in the higher cores, maybe level 18, would prevent the problem of low hanging fruit. A splashed rogue would also not be as reliant on sneak attack damage for dps and therefore would not have as much need for such a buff. Just my thoughts on this.

[CThruTheEgo]

Not a good question.

It's a perfectly good question, especially since you have stated that assassins sacrifice a lot by investing in int but have yet to explicitly state what it is they are giving up that is not also given up by other DC based builds.

I've spent all of my AP wisely. Spending more on INT does not provide a worthy return for what I'd give up. I'd be a marginally better assassinator, and worse in a lot of other ways.

At no point have I suggested you spend more AP in int. In fact, you've spent quite a bit in int already, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

If there was an Assassin Focus Feat that only provided +1 DC, would anyone take it? My answer is "no". It would probably have to be more like +3 for anyone to take it because the return is not there. Yet, other DC builds almost always take their +1 DC focus Feats because the value of the return is significant. Likewise, the chance of an Assassin taking a stat feat is zero. And, granted, while it's unlikely for other DC builds/classes to "waste" a feat on a stat, it is more likely.

I see your point here, but I do not agree with it. I think your assumption that no one would take a +1 DC feat is wrong, as is your statement that they wouldn't take a stat feat. Both Mellkor and nokowi, the other two top int assassin builds, have taken int as an epic feat at some point in their existence. I make epic toughness a priority on my assassin, so I don't have room for it while also including improved sneak attack and overwhelming critical. But I do twist 1 int to get to an even number. Each of the top builds have made such an investment, so your assumption that no one would do such a thing is simply wrong. And if you're going to argue that no "normal" player is going to do so, I disagree as well. I'm sure not all would, but some, and probably more than you think.

I will have to take your word on being handed the +11 item in the perfect slot as I enter the Necropolis, though I haven't run epic necro yet to confirm myself (hopefully, soon though).

Every item (excluding the raid items) from the epic Necro quests can appear in the chain end reward. So you can run the whole chain on casual for a chance at the item you want. They are very quick, especially now that you can teleport directly to the quest entrance. So it does require farming, but this is the easiest kind of farming the game has ever had, especially for the quality of items found there.

Should NOT be expected. We will one-and-done that adventure when we come to it (maybe I can convince the others to two-and-done it to give me a better chance, but it's not like they don't have things they want, too, and not like it will be any more guaranteed). If it drops, I'll have it. But I'm not counting on it and neither should you be counting on *everyone* else having it.

And here you are just reinforcing my point that you are not interested or willing to put any effort into obtaining gear. In other words, you want a no fail DC without any effort whatsoever. The fact that you are running with a static group that does each quest one and done, means you are definitely not representative of 95% of the player base. In fact, I would guess that you are in a small minority.

The epic helm is obtained the same way the +11 int items are, most likely from the chain reward. So yeah, it is easy to get and anyone expecting to perform well in the most difficult content should be expected to put such minimal effort into obtaining gear. What you are asking for is no effort at all.

But, frankly, unlike some people on the forums, our experience doesn't lead us to expect to have any named gear. We get what we get playing the game.

I also don't think this kind of attitude is representative of the majority of players, especially not players interested in endgame content, which is the only place that requires one's build to be in top condition.

And ToEE and everything else that comes out after it.

DCs were lowered. Building for content that isn't here yet is pointless because no one has any idea what the requirements of that content will be, or that new gear won't be introduced to make up the difference.

If I was exaggerating I wouldn't have a case and I'd be no-fail assassinating already. I'm not doing either.

As mentioned, the reason you are not currently assassinating well is a problem with mid epic levels and the lack of gear available there. What you are exaggerating about is the fact that your DC won't be good enough at endgame. It will if you are willing to put the minimal effort into it. It will even work in all but about 7 quests without that effort. And I am of the opinion that the most difficult content should require you to put effort into your build, not just play and expect to win with whatever comes along.

And, yet, I bet many "normal" players have neither 20 epic tokens sitting in their bags or have picked up a +1 exceptional augment along the way. By the time they can use the +1 augment, they have to decide if farming for 20 epic tokens is *worth* it for .5 DC or if their time might be better spent elsewhere. I'm of the opinion that they may very reasonably have their sights elsewhere at that point. I'm level 24 and have only run like one adventure that drop fragments so far.

Anything in Eberron drops tokens and token fragments. It is simply your personal preference if you choose to avoid that content. But 20 tokens can be gotten in a week of just running quests with no farming whatsoever.

Not to mention that the only timely way to get the tokens is to farm Cannith Challenges, which not everyone has, likes, or would think farming for would give them a better return than farming for other T3 cannith gear or something else in the game.

This is incorrect. If you want to get the tokens in a few hours, yes this is the best way. You can also farm Devil's Assault. But I'm not suggesting anyone farm anything for tokens. You can just play Eberron quests for fun and get them along the way. That's right, I said the "F" word. Play for fun and you'll have plenty of tokens in no time.

You seem to have the view that all this stuff requires playing the game with a particular strategy in mind, mainly farming, and yet you are playing the game with a particular strategy - one and done in a static group in off EDs. I highly doubt that your strategy applies to everyone or even a majority. You are making playstyle choices that limit your character's potential. Any limitations of assassinate that you experience are not a problem inherent with the assassinate ability. It just doesn't mesh well with your preferred playstyle.

My point being, is that it (like other stuff you guys take for granted) should *NOT* be expected.

Stuff like this is not needed or expected if you intend to run less difficult content. But it absolutely should be expected for the most difficult content. I never got upset that I never reached the end of any Mario game because my Mario skills suck. I just accepted that it wasn't a goal within my reach. If high end content that requires an optimal build to perform well is out of your reach, whether it's because it doesn't fit your playstyle or the effort required just doesn't interest you, then just don't expect to play that content, or play one of the easy button builds (i.e. paladin, bard, or barb) for that content.

Uneeded info. Yes, their are two INT optimal starting races. But the point still stands. Not everyone will be using those and it should also not be "expected" or considered part of the "easily attainable" thresholds.

Look at other DC based builds. There are optimal races for them as well.

But, unlike others, I won't assume that they'll get one to drop, have the plat, get the necessary first bid on one, or that all servers are the same (I have my doubts about Wayfinder, for example).

Again, as I mentioned already, this kind of stuff should be expected if you're building for endgame. I am speaking of endgame only where this stuff should be required. It is already not required anywhere else.

And please tell me you are not suggesting we balance classes around the lack of people on Wayfinder. It seems to me that the main reason people go to Wayfinder is for the limitations found there.

And we have differing ideas about the solution. Your solution is not my solution. You believe that assassination is the sacred cow of the class to be protected and nurtured and effective only with the highest level of investment (which, inevitably ends up being gear dependent and contrary to how I see many people playing the game). I find it to be no more sacred that QP is for a Monk. I believe assassinate should be a feather in the quiver and that it is unworthy of the weight, rarity, or sacrifices that have been attributed to attaining near no-fail (let alone, no-fail itself). You say I'm exaggerating and I say you're ignoring how the game is played by the so-called 95% because it's not convenient to where you want to see the class go without acknowledging that your baseline is *not* representative of the masses.

All DC based abilities are gear dependent. That's just how it works. And you are definitely not representative of 95% of the player base. I'm not claiming that I am. I am simply stating my opinion of what I think should be required to perform well in the most difficult content. And I fully realize that high end content is not a priority for everyone. But it's also the only place where everything we are discussing actually matters.

And, yet, that would help solve "my problem" and the problem of a whole lot of other assassins with respect to having a viable assassination DC.

Solving problematic mechanics with other problematic mechanics is not a good solution. It might be a solution, but it's definitely not a good one.

Because you (and others) are pretty comfortable assuming that all rogues will have more assassination help from Shadowdancer that a Stealth twist when most people without max destinies or who are ERing actually get to spend very little time in their preferred destiny. Heck some people even go so far as to mention twisting INT sometimes to help make up for it (which I also think is absurd).

Playstyle preference again, not a problem with assassinate.

[redoubt]

the base of +4 assassinate DC was on the really easy to obtain stuff and given all of the top stuff could actually hit +10, but I tried to denote that some of that was harder to obtain, whilst keeping it very brief. and EMG.... well lets say I found it much easier and quicker to get a Mythic Muffled Veneer than EMG considering I still don't have one but do have the other.......

A level 20 +1 Assassinate DC aug and a level 24 Assassinate DC +2 Aug would be a good idea but they would have to keep assassinate DC bonuses on items to +4 until the level cap raise in that case which I don't think they are planning on doing right now. The only problem with that is it really devalues EMG for anyone lucky enough to have it since you can replace its bonus in a less restrictive way but by level 24 that seems reasonable as long as it isn't devalued at level 20.

The value of the EMG would not be negated by augments because they stack. EMG +2 & augment +1 = +3 total at level 20.

This is also why anytime I've brought them up it has also included the idea that it is to complement +4 items at level 28 INSTEAD of adding +6 items. Total DC boost from items + augments not exceeding 6.

The augment color also should not be red as some people already need to use red for devotion aug for rejuv. Should most probably be yellow (same as caster).

thx redoubt but I can't place myself in the knowledge set of Cthru and Nokowi--my focus has been on stealth builds that use rogue as part of their skill set and not a pure assassin per se (shadow veil has spoiled me). My suggestions in this thread have been away from endgame and more like midgame and other lower level stuff to which I am acquainted.

I've read much of your work in the stealth threads in the rogue forums and I value your work there as much as I do CThru or Nokowi. They like to talk builds, but I appreciate your thoughts on improving the stealth system.

[Bobby88888]

The value of the EMG would not be negated by augments because they stack. EMG +2 & augment +1 = +3 total at level 20.

This is also why anytime I've brought them up it has also included the idea that it is to complement +4 items at level 28 INSTEAD of adding +6 items. Total DC boost from items + augments not exceeding 6.





I've read much of your work in the stealth threads in the rogue forums and I value your work there as much as I do CThru or Nokowi. They like to talk builds, but I appreciate your thoughts on improving the stealth system.

Duh. My bad. That is also how I was thinking to implement them but I got distracted while posting and it got mixed up a bit. I have also suggested the same approach in one of the threads somewhere so I totally agree I just confused myself there thanks for catching that and pointing it out

[HuneyMunster]

While i too think that the assassinate DC bonus should be available on a few more items, i can easily tell you why SF is so "popular" on items: assassinate DC works for 1 ability from 1 PrE, while SF works on zillions of things for caster builds.

Allowing Combat Mastery items to also effect assassinate dc would help here and would make items easier to create as they will have use for more than 1 PrE. Making it the same bonus type so it don't stack with assassinate items as to not over-inflate the dc. If you take Consuming Darkness ring as an example, do you think anyone other than a rogue would want the ring as much if it was assassinate instead of combat mastery? I doubt it too much as seeker can be found on loot gen around the same amount and with something more useful to other classes.

I think Sev said he didn't want tactics to include assassinate, but is assassinate a tactical attack? I think it is as you have to make a tactical decision of who needs to be assassinated. Even if its not its called combat mastery and not tactical mastery.

[Artagon]

Allowing Combat Mastery items to also effect assassinate dc would help here and would make items easier to create as they will have use for more than 1 PrE. Making it the same bonus type so it don't stack with assassinate items as to not over-inflate the dc. If you take Consuming Darkness ring as an example, do you think anyone other than a rogue would want the ring as much if it was assassinate instead of combat mastery? I doubt it too much as seeker can be found on loot gen around the same amount and with something more useful to other classes.

I think Sev said he didn't want tactics to include assassinate, but is assassinate a tactical attack? I think it is as you have to make a tactical decision of who needs to be assassinated. Even if its not its called combat mastery and not tactical mastery.

I'd be behind this, or allowing necromancy focus gear to apply to assassinate (might need a rename), since it is a relatively common gear bonus compared to assassinate, and it would allow players to get a small bonus earlier on than combat mastery is available.

[brzytki]

Allowing Combat Mastery items to also effect assassinate dc would help here and would make items easier to create as they will have use for more than 1 PrE. Making it the same bonus type so it don't stack with assassinate items as to not over-inflate the dc.

If Combat Mastery was changed to affect assassinate DC it would be a huge buff. The highest +DC bonus from item you can get is +4 at lvl 27 on hard to get items. Now, look at Combat Mastery. You can get +5 at lvl 20 with practically no grind (Spare Hand for Challenges). That's why it's not a good idea.

The best way to go are yellow augments. Like others say, make a stacking +1 DC at lvl 20 and +1 every 4 lvls and it will be enough.

[Chaios]

If Combat Mastery was changed to affect assassinate DC...

Everytime I see that line that I think "well sure, and you could add one to the DC for Precision, another for Weapon Finesse if using a finesseable weapon..." And Then I realize the word is Mastery, not Expertise.

So much disappoint...

[nokowi]

Assassins in Shadowdancer do about 1/3 as much damage as top tier (paladin/druid melee/barb). Those of you beating pugs without assassinate are running against sub-par builds. The reason you don't see top builds is that good builds can solo anything in the game (or prefer to run with guildies for fun) and have no reason to run with us lowly pugs. Check out 'Cetus' for Pally build and 'Eth' for Barb builds that will make your assassin look silly.

I think the ease of this game for top builds has moved the game to such a fast pace that assassins are going to be left somewhat behind no matter what the dev's do. Assassins shine when mob HP or challenge are high relative to character DPS/ability. The bard/barb/pally passes make it clear that challenge has been completely removed for top builds. Assassin play style does not jive with the 2 seconds it takes to kill an entire group of EE mobs. DC Assassins will be sub-par unless challenge is brought back to the game.

Some here want Assassin to have top tier (or maybe just mid-tier) DPS. For starters, we would need about an extra 50d6 Sneak Attack to be on the same playing field, and an extra 100d6 Sneak Attack to actually compete on a single mob. I am not joking with these numbers. Applying crit multipliers to SA damage may be the only reasonable way for assassins to have even moderate DPS in today's game. 30d6 Sneak Attack with a x3 multiplier on crit puts the damage into the usable range. I would guess my (current) 500-600 damage crits would be around 1000 with crit multiplier added. I think this would still be far behind top builds, but at least it is the type of change that players expect given recent bard/barb/pally passes. I am not personally advocating for a DPS increase, but I am showing the kind of change it would take to even matter.

Lastly, while players have been shown how to get effective assassinate DC's for current content on a first life toon, the latest Lamannia implementation may make DC assassins (the only kind of end game assassin given their lack of dps) extinct as of ToEE. I went in with DC 79 (with abishai cookies & yugo pots) and gave up on assassinate. I expect we will need a major DC boost through ToEE gear (+10 DC items), or we will have all wasted our time on this thread. ToEE currently has large numbers of low HP mobs with high DC's, making assassinate all but useless, but ideal for the Cleave/Burst DPS builds that seem to be excreting (fools ) gold these days...

No matter what Dev's do, I love playing my assassin as it exists now in current content. I have no desire to play the current top builds or to turn rogue into them. They lack any weakness or challenge. The only real fix for DC rogues is for challenge to return to the rest of the players, so that our signature ability can actually be useful.

[dualscissors]

Assassins in Shadowdancer do about 1/3 as much damage as top tier (paladin/druid melee/barb). Those of you beating pugs without assassinate are running against sub-par builds. The reason you don't see top builds is that good builds can solo anything in the game (or prefer to run with guildies for fun) and have no reason to run with us lowly pugs. Check out 'Cetus' for Pally build and 'Eth' for Barb builds that will make your assassin look silly.

I think the ease of this game for top builds has moved the game to such a fast pace that assassins are going to be left somewhat behind no matter what the dev's do. Assassins shine when mob HP or challenge are high relative to character DPS/ability. The bard/barb/pally passes make it clear that challenge has been completely removed for top builds. Assassin play style does not jive with the 2 seconds it takes to kill an entire group of EE mobs. DC Assassins will be sub-par unless challenge is brought back to the game.

Some here want Assassin to have top tier (or maybe just mid-tier) DPS. For starters, we would need about an extra 50d6 Sneak Attack to be on the same playing field, and an extra 100d6 Sneak Attack to actually compete on a single mob. I am not joking with these numbers. Applying crit multipliers to SA damage may be the only reasonable way for assassins to have even moderate DPS in today's game. 30d6 Sneak Attack with a x3 multiplier on crit puts the damage into the usable range. I would guess my (current) 500-600 damage crits would be around 1000 with crit multiplier added. I think this would still be far behind top builds, but at least it is the type of change that players expect given recent bard/barb/pally passes. I am not personally advocating for a DPS increase, but I am showing the kind of change it would take to even matter.

I didn't want to quote so much of your post for the sake of brevity but you hit the nail.... I would note that the difference might not be so great between a naked 20th level rogue vs. a 20th level pally/barbarian, but when Legendary Dreadnaught or Divine Crusader vs. Shadowdancer gets put into the equation, the DPS disrepancy becomes very noticeable. Of course, most toons are going to have Epic Destiny so I'm not makinig any grand revelation - only that Shadowdancer's relative weakness is a large factor.


You are correct in highlighting that this discrepancy happens most when mob HPs aren't super high. One-hitting a weaker mob with assassinate vs. a barbarian chopping down a weaker mob isn't a big time difference like it is with a 12k HP mob.

It must sound strange to say that 29d6 sneak attack dice on every hit is meh. One obvious thing to rogues is that sneak dice have a diminished effect in the epic game. A dozen sneak attack dice on heroic mobs is pretty mean. Once mobs get buffed in the epic game, however, with sneak dice not critting, they just don't carry anywhere near the same punch - even if your rogue has more than a couple dozen d6s.

[nokowi]

I didn't want to quote so much of your post for the sake of brevity but you hit the nail.... I would note that the difference might not be so great between a naked 20th level rogue vs. a 20th level pally/barbarian, but when Legendary Dreadnaught or Divine Crusader vs. Shadowdancer gets put into the equation, the DPS disrepancy becomes very noticeable. Of course, most toons are going to have Epic Destiny so I'm not makinig any grand revelation - only that Shadowdancer's relative weakness is a large factor.


You are correct in highlighting that this discrepancy happens most when mob HPs aren't super high. One-hitting a weaker mob with assassinate vs. a barbarian chopping down a weaker mob isn't a big time difference like it is with a 12k HP mob.

It must sound strange to say that 29d6 sneak attack dice on every hit is meh. One obvious thing to rogues is that sneak dice have a diminished effect in the epic game. A dozen sneak attack dice on heroic mobs is pretty mean. Once mobs get buffed in the epic game, however, with sneak dice not critting, they just don't carry anywhere near the same punch - even if your rogue has more than a couple dozen d6s.

I'm not sure if I made this clear but I feel the challenge level for assassin is appropriate in current content. Buffing them to FOTM status would make them less enjoyable for me to play. I realize there is a variety of opinions on this one. I find myself very useful in a under-powered pug on EE (cc traps, healing, taking out key foes, etc). I am simply along for the amusement of others when top DPS builds are present.

[Full_Bleed]

Every item (excluding the raid items) from the epic Necro quests can appear in the chain end reward. So you can run the whole chain on casual for a chance at the item you want. They are very quick, especially now that you can teleport directly to the quest entrance. So it does require farming, but this is the easiest kind of farming the game has ever had, especially for the quality of items found there.

Thanks for the tip. But if I'm going to spend time doing something it won't be running casual to farm for an item. I'll play the game as I normally would.

And here you are just reinforcing my point that you are not interested or willing to put any effort into obtaining gear.

The fact that you equate "effort" with doing something like running a chain on casual to farm for an item just shows how different we perceive the word "effort".

In other words, you want a no fail DC without any effort whatsoever.

If that's what you've gotten out of my posts then you really shouldn't have even bothered to respond to them.

Running content 2-4 levels UNDER most of the time, maintaining our Elite streak, and playing one-and-done because we don't want to give into a cheesy MMO farming mentality is the absolute FURTHEST THING from "lack of effort*. Completely absurd conclusion on your part.

The epic helm is obtained the same way the +11 int items are, most likely from the chain reward. So yeah, it is easy to get and anyone expecting to perform well in the most difficult content should be expected to put such minimal effort into obtaining gear. What you are asking for is no effort at all.

This is probably the 7th or 8th time you've tried to make this assertion. Pathetic.

I also don't think this kind of attitude is representative of the majority of players, especially not players interested in endgame content, which is the only place that requires one's build to be in top condition.

It's fairly well known that "End Game" in DDO is ERing or TRing. And when people have a character that wipes out EN & EH... and are "encouraged" to play 2-3 levels UNDER in EE to get a challenge... It's not unreasonable to see that holding back on assassination would seem quite arbitrary and pointless. It's not *stopping* me or anyone else, it just changes our role. Assassination isn't the key to success. Not being able to do it just sucks some of the fun out of the class, which I find to be utterly pointless.

I get it. You're cool with gear being the gateway for rogue assassination. I'm not. I think it's an arbitrary way to take a very conditional card out the rogue's deck and that other sacrifices should be able to be made to keep it in. If I had to spend AP's to get assassination-viable how does that affect those who are already gear-viable? They'd just get to spend those AP's on other things that I don't get. If lazy-no-effort assassins like me had to spend 9 AP's to get +9DC and super-duper-over-achieving assassins could spend them on other perks like 4 seconds off their assassination timer and 5 more SA dice, why wouldn't that be a fair trade off?

As mentioned, the reason you are not currently assassinating well is a problem with mid epic levels and the lack of gear available there. What you are exaggerating about is the fact that your DC won't be good enough at endgame. It will if you are willing to put the minimal effort into it. It will even work in all but about 7 quests without that effort. And I am of the opinion that the most difficult content should require you to put effort into your build, not just play and expect to win with whatever comes along.

And I'm of the opinion that sticking with that mentality only excludes assassination from content that other classes have no problem in. Sure, I can back off to a lower difficulty where I'll be assassination-viable and bored stiff. Or I can do as I am going to do and just run the EE *anyway*, still win, but just not be able to assassinate. So what, exactly, is the reason to stop me from doing it? How is the game better for it? You think I'm going to have some great incentive to farm as a result? That people will have more build choices? That I'm suddenly going to say, "It's totally worth running that adventure 10 times instead of 10 different adventures now!"

At any rate, I hope you enjoy the Rogue update.

IMO, 60+ pages of assassin discussion and talks and bickering hasn't served the class very well: Marginal increases in assassination, defense, and dps with absolutely nothing that they can "hang their hat on".

To be clear, I'll take the convenience improvements and common sense updates and be thankful because I can appreciate that they *are* improvements. At least we didn't lose anything and I don't see anything they'll have to nerf later.

But after seeing what Bard, Pallys, & Barbs got... and where things seem to be going... it's looking like rogues are going to be one of the worst "end-game" classes in the game.