Rogue - Assassin Changes

[SealedInSong]

I have an off the wall idea.

Assassinate is really strongly tied to Rogue level and there is almost no wiggle room when it comes to building a character that wants to utilize the ability. That is problematic, in my mind, because it eliminates the best feature of this game - the customization. Right now, it's go single class or don't bother. With the proposed changes so far, I don't think this changes much.

What if assassinate was completely untethered to Rogue level but the cooldown was instead? For example, instead of the DC being 10 + Rogue level, what if the DC was simple base 30 and then the cooldown is decreased by 1 second at core 12, 2 more seconds at core 18, and 2 more seconds (for a total of 5) at core 20?

Doing this would still give single class Rogues a distinct advantage when it came to assassination but it would make building a lot more interesting.

I could get behind this, but would have to think about it more.

One thing that I'd like to cite is Stunning Fist. Stunning Fist is by far one of the most effective CC and helpless skills in the game.

cost: 15 ki (centered), prereq: flurry of blows, cooldown = 6 sec, DC = 10 +half charlvl + wis mod + item mods vs Fort.

Its immune opponents are largely similar to assassinate (non-living targets, constructs, etc).

PREVIOUSLY, stunning fist was tied to monk levels, and now it's not. Lots of folks moaned and cried about it, but now I think most players are just happy to build another wis-based character using stunning fist that's not a pure monk!

I've made stunning fist (monk splashed) rogues, druids, clerics, favored souls, fighters, paladins, rangers, and wizards! Of the non-restricted classes (bard/barb), only sorc and arti have I not used to build a stunning fist character.

Make assassins diverse!
Imagine the diversity and fun we could have if [endgame viable] assassins were all of the above and more, instead of:

max [int/dex] pure rogue wearing [mythic muffled veneer/dark diversion] in [shadowdancer / less likely: magister]

That short list is very boring.

[nokowi]

Will it be obnoxious to have this in triplicate? Oh well. I can't stress enough how against the spirit of DDO it is to have an ability only work in one build, and encourage everyone to cookie cutter said build or the ability won't work in endgame.

Yes

A class with MORE critical gameplay choices than any other build is a sign of what is right in DDO, not what is wrong.

[SealedInSong]

Please don't confuse build choices with gameplay choices. They are different things.

However, I still think that the game would benefit from some kind of mechanic that allowed the assassinate ability to be used creatively, instead of essentially require builds to be made from the same core materials and spiced up with "gameplay" choices.

The fact of DDO is that people can derive enjoyment from build choices AND gameplay choices.

My stunning fist example is a historical DDO turning point where I feel a previously pigeonholed ability was opened up for creative use in build choices AND gameplay choices.

The multiplicative factor of that is what keeps the game of alive for me, and for many others, I'd imagine.

All this said, I am not confident Sev or the dev team look at making assassinate a more diverse ability a priority for their engineering capacity.

I do think it would be a good nut to crack, though, for the simple reason that more build [AND gameplay] choices are why I keep spending money on this game.

[SealedInSong]

Yes

A class with MORE critical gameplay choices than any other build is a sign of what is right in DDO, not what is wrong.

No

As in my stunning fist example, there are MORE gameplay choices to be made when I build 8+ stunning fist characters based on different classes. Are you building 8 assassins? Perhaps so, though I find that unlikely.

I have two assassins. I have eight stunning fist characters (or had, in various lives). That's enough of a comparison for me.

I respect your opinion but if stunning fist went back to the narrow avenue that assassins have to walk, then I'd have 1/4 the satisfaction across that set of characters.

400% more gamplay choices for the open-ended ability.

[nokowi]

However, I still think that the game would benefit from some kind of mechanic that allowed the assassinate ability to be used creatively, instead of essentially require builds to be made from the same core materials and spiced up with "gameplay" choices.

The fact of DDO is that people can derive enjoyment from build choices AND gameplay choices.

My stunning fist example is a historical DDO turning point where I feel a previously pigeonholed ability was opened up for creative use in build choices AND gameplay choices.

The multiplicative factor of that is what keeps the game of alive for me, and for many others, I'd imagine.

All this said, I am not confident Sev or the dev team look at making assassinate a more diverse ability a priority for their engineering capacity.

I do think it would be a good nut to crack, though, for the simple reason that more build [AND gameplay] choices are why I keep spending money on this game.

Players have an infinite number of builds to experiment with. This includes DC insta kill through bard. You dont need rogue to do this.

You suggest that assassins should also have stunning fist because you like it.
Others want a no fail DC without any real build investment (skill based DC).
Others want fast movement.
Others want instant full heals (everybody else has them, right?)
Others want the same melee dps as top tier builds

Pretty soon all characters can assassinate, and every single DDO build plays exactly the same.

Just because you like an ability does not mean that every class needs to have it. Having different classes be able to do different things, with different strengths and weaknesses leads to variety. Giving everyone everything does not.

[nokowi]

No

As in my stunning fist example, there are MORE gameplay choices to be made when I build 8+ stunning fist characters based on different classes. Are you building 8 assassins? Perhaps so, though I find that unlikely.

I have two assassins. I have eight stunning fist characters (or had, in various lives). That's enough of a comparison for me.

I respect your opinion but if stunning fist went back to the narrow avenue that assassins have to walk, then I'd have 1/4 the satisfaction across that set of characters.

400% more gamplay choices for the open-ended ability.

If I watched you play your 8 stunning fist toons, would I notice the difference in your game play? Not build differences, but how you move through the dungeon, how you assess targets, etc. It seems likely you are confusing hitting the same set of buttons with the exact same game play and different build choices with actual differences in game play.

If you are bored with assassin, it sounds like you have plenty of other toons to play. Go play your 8 other stunning fist toons. You certainly have not made a good argument that there are not enough stunning fist builds, and therefore we need more. These exist. Go play them.

Most classes have many build choices and then game play is just players trying them out.

For assassin, the variety comes through the game play choices that you make as your skill, understanding, and character power change. It also depends on your tolerance for risk vs reward, your character dps, character toughness, willingness to use traps, and as your party composition changes. There is much more variety here than just testing your latest build for awesomeness.

[Bobby88888]

There is already a lot of diversity within Assassins.
A quick search on the forums and I came up with 7 different assassin builds and some of them are fairly out of the box. (I didn't look through any of them to see how good they were but probably all work decently, some better than others sure but some were very distinct flavour builds) and non of these are the same as my Assassin either.

Races, fighting styles, feats, enhancements, EDs and or ED setups all vary. Sure maxing out Int is a priority for all of them but then again it is the same for a DC wiz and no one is asking for them to be able to get the same DCs if they go 12 wiz/8 x (Example isn't that great but you can see the point.)

Making Assassinate available for everyone is the opposite of what we need. That waters assassin down rather than shoring it up. Kind of like coup de grace but with still a little investment for DC.

[slarden]

I could get behind this, but would have to think about it more.

One thing that I'd like to cite is Stunning Fist. Stunning Fist is by far one of the most effective CC and helpless skills in the game.

cost: 15 ki (centered), prereq: flurry of blows, cooldown = 6 sec, DC = 10 +half charlvl + wis mod + item mods vs Fort.

Its immune opponents are largely similar to assassinate (non-living targets, constructs, etc).

PREVIOUSLY, stunning fist was tied to monk levels, and now it's not. Lots of folks moaned and cried about it, but now I think most players are just happy to build another wis-based character using stunning fist that's not a pure monk!

I've made stunning fist (monk splashed) rogues, druids, clerics, favored souls, fighters, paladins, rangers, and wizards! Of the non-restricted classes (bard/barb), only sorc and arti have I not used to build a stunning fist character.

Make assassins diverse!
Imagine the diversity and fun we could have if [endgame viable] assassins were all of the above and more, instead of:

max [int/dex] pure rogue wearing [mythic muffled veneer/dark diversion] in [shadowdancer / less likely: magister]

That short list is very boring.

I don't think stunning blow is precluded from a rogue build and actually it's arguably better than toughness for sure if you build for it.

My character currently has a 68 int and 31 str so my stunning blow with boots of the innocent (which fits my gear very well and costs me nothing really) my stunning DC would be 59

10: base
6: Legendary Tactics Twist
12: Stunning from Boots of the Innocent
5: Combat Mastery from Consuming Darkness
10: Strength Modifier (starting str of 8)
14: Int Modifier from Know the Angles
3: Fighter past lifes (I currently only have 1)

This isn't no fail, but it's going to work reasonably well in most content (obviously not stormhorns or even some GH quests), but realistically I can't fit in the twist anyhow. I already have a rough time choosing between sense weakness, daunting roar, balanced attacks, damage boost 30% and cocoon. Coccon isn't going anywhere. Balanced attacks I wouldn't really consider unslotting. Daunting roar is so useful in tougher EEs to get out of a jam since you can't control what the rest of the party does. So this means giving up 30% damage boost which would be tough since my goal is to be optimized for boss fights. Sense weakness I mainly use when running easier EE and EH to speed things up a bit in place of daunting roar which is only really needed for more difficult content.

Still, stunning is not precluded at all on a rogue build you just have to give up something to do it and it won't be anything like a monk's stunning fist in terms of effectiveness. Still, if you gear for cc procs, taking stunning blow, balanced attacks, paralyzing on tier 2 of your TF weapon and daunting roar you can get good cc on an assassin - you can even have good cc without stunning blow for that matter. My cc is actually better at lower epic levels due to gear and weapons.

[Faltout]

make it so that Death Block/Ward doesn't stop assassinate.

So much this.

My mechanic recently picked up assassinate (at level 17), because mechanic tree had nothing else to offer and assassinate was just there. I have a good INT, deceptions, bluffs and shadow dagger.
So yesterday I was playing with a full group the LoD chain. While in a group, performing sneak attacks is easier, so I didn't have to worry about deceptions/bluffs/blindness but since assassinate can kill 1 maybe 2 monsters per 1 or 2 encounters, I had to choose wisely. Of course by the time I made my choice (it takes about 2 seconds to spot a target), the party had already taken damage and all monsters would have about half health. So I mostly went for the champions and the monsters in front of me that had more than half health. Imagine my frustration when the champions showed a deathward icon on top when I tried to assassinate (I didn't have the time to also check champion buffs) or a random drow show the deathward icon because a priestess was nearby. After a failed assassinate, I would switch to my repeater and start getting away from the fight to mitigate damage. I would maybe hit one monster with sneak attacks and then the fight was over.

So, to recap, it took me about 2 seconds to spot a target for assassinate, then about 2 seconds to get close to it, then about 1 second to make sure sneak is activated, then 2 seconds to realize assassinate failed, then 1 second to switch to repeater and then about 2 seconds of DPS against a monster. That's 10 seconds of minimal contribution to the fight. And the fight only lasts about 10 seconds.

Then there was another moment with a Hezrou in Spinner. I was determined to assassinate him. So I use assassinate, but it wasn't a sneak attack. Ok, run around for the cooldown. Then use shadow dagger to blind, wait for him to perform one attack so he won't hit me, get close to him, activate sneak... hit assassinate... oh, sneak never activated... activate sneak... activate assassinate... bah, no longer blind... run around for cooldown... use shadow dagger... avoid one attack... get close to him... I'm dead. I was so focused on getting the assassinate to work that I hadn't noticed that my health was so low because I allowed him to hit me with oh so many attacks while getting sneaky and close to him.
The funny thing is I would have easily killed him if I used my repeater. With bluff, shadow dagger and deception on item and on repeater, my DPS was high enough. And I would have stayed out of range.

I don't know what is wrong with assassinate... Is it me? Am I taking too long to make decisions of who to kill and where to move? Is it the switch to sneaking that is taking too long? Is it the blindness that allows them to hit me breaking sneak?
Maybe dropping the sneak requirement for assassinate is best. Keep sneak attack requirement, but drop sneak. (Still make it so it doesn't break sneak) That would allow an assassin to perform extremely well in parties assassinating every time it's on cooldown.

On another note, don't release items with a boost to assassinate bigger than what the tree can provide. And move that speed while sneaking to the assassin tree for god's sake. It's an assassin that needs speed.

[Erofen]

And move that speed while sneaking to the assassin tree

That was already in the plan. They are replacing the sneak speed in thief acrobat with general speed.

[nokowi]

So much this.

My mechanic recently picked up assassinate (at level 17), because mechanic tree had nothing else to offer and assassinate was just there. I have a good INT, deceptions, bluffs and shadow dagger.
So yesterday I was playing with a full group the LoD chain. While in a group, performing sneak attacks is easier, so I didn't have to worry about deceptions/bluffs/blindness but since assassinate can kill 1 maybe 2 monsters per 1 or 2 encounters, I had to choose wisely. Of course by the time I made my choice (it takes about 2 seconds to spot a target), the party had already taken damage and all monsters would have about half health. So I mostly went for the champions and the monsters in front of me that had more than half health. Imagine my frustration when the champions showed a deathward icon on top when I tried to assassinate (I didn't have the time to also check champion buffs) or a random drow show the deathward icon because a priestess was nearby. After a failed assassinate, I would switch to my repeater and start getting away from the fight to mitigate damage. I would maybe hit one monster with sneak attacks and then the fight was over.

So, to recap, it took me about 2 seconds to spot a target for assassinate, then about 2 seconds to get close to it, then about 1 second to make sure sneak is activated, then 2 seconds to realize assassinate failed, then 1 second to switch to repeater and then about 2 seconds of DPS against a monster. That's 10 seconds of minimal contribution to the fight. And the fight only lasts about 10 seconds.

Then there was another moment with a Hezrou in Spinner. I was determined to assassinate him. So I use assassinate, but it wasn't a sneak attack. Ok, run around for the cooldown. Then use shadow dagger to blind, wait for him to perform one attack so he won't hit me, get close to him, activate sneak... hit assassinate... oh, sneak never activated... activate sneak... activate assassinate... bah, no longer blind... run around for cooldown... use shadow dagger... avoid one attack... get close to him... I'm dead. I was so focused on getting the assassinate to work that I hadn't noticed that my health was so low because I allowed him to hit me with oh so many attacks while getting sneaky and close to him.
The funny thing is I would have easily killed him if I used my repeater. With bluff, shadow dagger and deception on item and on repeater, my DPS was high enough. And I would have stayed out of range.

I don't know what is wrong with assassinate... Is it me? Am I taking too long to make decisions of who to kill and where to move? Is it the switch to sneaking that is taking too long? Is it the blindness that allows them to hit me breaking sneak?
Maybe dropping the sneak requirement for assassinate is best. Keep sneak attack requirement, but drop sneak. (Still make it so it doesn't break sneak) That would allow an assassin to perform extremely well in parties assassinating every time it's on cooldown.

On another note, don't release items with a boost to assassinate bigger than what the tree can provide. And move that speed while sneaking to the assassin tree for god's sake. It's an assassin that needs speed.

You just need some more practice. You are willing to evaluate your own game play (rather than trying one thing, quitting and saying assassin is broken) so I am sure you can do well with assassin. In spinner, a newer assassin DC player should follow another player. As soon as the mob runs (or teleports) to the other player, you assassinate them.

Another idea would be to repeat the same quest and just stay in stealth the entire time. After you better learn how to select targets, you can work on popping in and out of stealth and paying attention to your health bar.

Lastly, you may or may not have the DC for spinner, depending on your build choices. I am remembering a DC of 60 being usable off the top of my head. The cats and spiders are easy to assassinate while the Hezrou take some DC.

As we can see from your post, Assassin requires skilled play. It is definitely not for everyone. It is very rewarding when you master it.


Best,

Noko

[Qezuzu]

I have no idea why you think assassin is for solo play.

I specifically said stealth, not the Assassin tree.

If you think stealth is dead, you don't know how to play stealth assassin. It does take a bunch of skill that many players don't seem to have.

It's pretty rude to just flat out say I don't know how to use stealth. I'm not going to rattle off about the quests I've completed with minimum kills but I'm pretty **** sure I know it at least as well as you do.

Unless you can show otherwise (all of your vids are solo) I simply don't see the utility of stealth in a group. There's no use for sneak beyond very basic things like Measure the Foe, Assassinate and avoiding aggro at the start of an encounter, and somehow 18/2 builds with working Assassinate threaten this.

Assassin does not have one singular build. Just because you have one class does not mean you are not choosing abilities from 5 different trees. People prioritize different things, and have different play styles that causes them to pick different things. This is also true when you look at Shadowdancer epic destiny.

Right now you have to choose between more melee dps and higher DC. There will be less gameplay (not build) choices when the answer becomes to maximize dps WITH no fail DC.

Slight variations in where AP is spent is not an entire new build.

As far as I can see there's precisely one good Assassin build, and that's pure 20 INT-based. Usually Human or Drow. Either Shadowdancer or a melee tree (Dreadnought/Crusade, I commonly bounce between these three trees so I don't consider it a very integral part of a build because unlike feats, base stats and class levels it can be changed on the fly for little cost). After that it's very minor choices like taking Wand and Scroll Mastery or not, or using Dark Diversion or Mythic Muffled Veneer.

I am not literally saying that every Assassin in the game is identical, but it's completely asinine to say that it's a tree is anything resembling flexible. One of DDO's selling points is the diversity in which you can make a character, and Assassin is missing out on that which, to me, is poor design.

And higher melee DPS and high Assassinate DC go hand in hand because of Harper. The only exception is Shadowdancer over Dreadnought/Crusader (and the choice is obvious for me because Shadowdancer is garbage, Blitz alone is worth +4 INT). If Shadowdancer ever gets improved to the point where it's a competitive melee tree that also provides INT, which is probably going to happen eventually, then there goes that 'build diversity'.

I can guarantee you that if 100 players copied my build, they would have much different results in an EE quest. Even among skilled players, there is a big variety in how we move through a dungeon and what specific choices we make. While there many not be as many build choices as for multiclass toons, there are much more gameplay choices with assassin that with any other class, and these choices have much bigger consequences than with any other class. Please don't confuse build choices with gameplay choices. They are different things.

This is hardly something that's unique to Assassin. "More gameplay choices with assassin that with any other class" is also something that's extremely subjective, not to mention vague.

Players have an infinite number of builds to experiment with. This includes DC insta kill through bard. You dont need rogue to do this.

You suggest that assassins should also have stunning fist because you like it.
Others want a no fail DC without any real build investment (skill based DC).
Others want fast movement.
Others want instant full heals (everybody else has them, right?)
Others want the same melee dps as top tier builds

Pretty soon all characters can assassinate, and every single DDO build plays exactly the same.

Just because you like an ability does not mean that every class needs to have it. Having different classes be able to do different things, with different strengths and weaknesses leads to variety. Giving everyone everything does not.

I'm not some idiot who wants Assassinate DC to be based off Hide score or whatever. I simply think that adding an additional +4 or so DC somewhere that's not capstone, whether it be an item or the lvl18 core or t5 enhancement or the base DC or a combination would be a positive change that would allow people to experiment with Assassin builds that aren't so incredibly samey and min/maxed. Working DC's without remaining pure is a feature that virtually every other ability in the game, including caster spells, enjoys. But here you're rattling off about how very basic multiclass splits will kill stealth or ruin the tree's indentity and playstyle or whatever garbage, and that's what it is, alarmist garbage, it doesn't make the slighest sense. Here's a pro-tip, 2 paladin splash doesn't make you into an unkillable tank, it won't allow you to ignore basic concepts like managing aggro, it won't allow a solo Assassin to not have to use Web traps.

[nibel]

I agree that people not running EE probably don't worry about the 3 DC from 6 INT in SD.

Now, if we had, say, 3 more DC. You could skip spending 12 destiny points on INT; this allows you run in a melee destiny that does better damage. I.e. LD or DC. Adding INT to those other trees would not be needed.

So we are agreeing here. I just believe this extra DC should be epic only, not something in the assassin cores. Either on gear or epic destiny or epic feats.

[nokowi]

I specifically said stealth, not the Assassin tree.



It's pretty rude to just flat out say I don't know how to use stealth. I'm not going to rattle off about the quests I've completed with minimum kills but I'm pretty **** sure I know it at least as well as you do.

Unless you can show otherwise (all of your vids are solo) I simply don't see the utility of stealth in a group. There's no use for sneak beyond very basic things like Measure the Foe, Assassinate and avoiding aggro at the start of an encounter, and somehow 18/2 builds with working Assassinate threaten this.



Slight variations in where AP is spent is not an entire new build.

As far as I can see there's precisely one good Assassin build, and that's pure 20 INT-based. Usually Human or Drow. Either Shadowdancer or a melee tree (Dreadnought/Crusade, I commonly bounce between these three trees so I don't consider it a very integral part of a build because unlike feats, base stats and class levels it can be changed on the fly for little cost). After that it's very minor choices like taking Wand and Scroll Mastery or not, or using Dark Diversion or Mythic Muffled Veneer.

I am not literally saying that every Assassin in the game is identical, but it's completely asinine to say that it's a tree is anything resembling flexible. One of DDO's selling points is the diversity in which you can make a character, and Assassin is missing out on that which, to me, is poor design.

And higher melee DPS and high Assassinate DC go hand in hand because of Harper. The only exception is Shadowdancer over Dreadnought/Crusader (and the choice is obvious for me because Shadowdancer is garbage, Blitz alone is worth +4 INT). If Shadowdancer ever gets improved to the point where it's a competitive melee tree that also provides INT, which is probably going to happen eventually, then there goes that 'build diversity'.



This is hardly something that's unique to Assassin. "More gameplay choices with assassin that with any other class" is also something that's extremely subjective, not to mention vague.



I'm not some idiot who wants Assassinate DC to be based off Hide score or whatever. I simply think that adding an additional +4 or so DC somewhere that's not capstone, whether it be an item or the lvl18 core or t5 enhancement or the base DC or a combination would be a positive change that would allow people to experiment with Assassin builds that aren't so incredibly samey and min/maxed. Working DC's without remaining pure is a feature that virtually every other ability in the game, including caster spells, enjoys. But here you're rattling off about how very basic multiclass splits will kill stealth or ruin the tree's indentity and playstyle or whatever garbage, and that's what it is, alarmist garbage, it doesn't make the slighest sense. Here's a pro-tip, 2 paladin splash doesn't make you into an unkillable tank, it won't allow you to ignore basic concepts like managing aggro, it won't allow a solo Assassin to not have to use Web traps.

You may be a knowledgeable player but that doesn't mean you understand how to play DC assassin. Stealth is not something primarily used to sneak past everything. It is something used to maximize kills and effectiveness in a party. I play in Shadowdancer quite well, thank you. I will take your comment about multi-class not ruining stealth in the context of all the rest of your (incorrect) statements. Assassins by no means need web in a group, and the main danger is fast moving multiclass builds that don't even use stealth but instead use blindness.

I would be happy to make a group video. The only reason I have not done this is because I am not on the forums to tout how awesome I am, and it requires permission from all of the other players. I would propose EE Von 3. I will ask you to join me so we can post a screenshot at the end. We can run 2-man or full group. Please let me know if you are interested.

[Saekee]

Sev, I'd like to suggest making Shiv a multiselector so that it works on ranged attacks as well.
Now that we have the mechanic tree, I can see mechanic builds wanting envenomed blades and damage boost. Shiv would augment ranged attacks like Leg Shot. It will not be as good as deepwood stalker's exposing strike but is roguish in its own way.

[CThruTheEgo]

Now that we have the mechanic tree, I can see mechanic builds wanting envenomed blades and damage boost.

Damage boost is being changed to melee power boost, so it won't be of use to ranged mechanics unless it also boosts ranged power.

[Donny_b]

a dex to assassin dc is exactly what rogues need. The highest dc achievable is within 70-75 and that is with all levels to intelligence, intelligence from ED's, heroic enhancements, assassinate items, and everything else. That requires a VERY heavy pull from other versatile aspects of the rogue. Their base dps gets sumped and everything. Even some speccing into the harper tree, which more people than you think find the tree rather repulsive. What i don't understand is how you have no problem taking a back of the line class, like bards, who were only there to buff parties and,offer crowd and give them a LITERAL FRONT LINE near incompetable (at least for single target melees) dps tree. but question giving one of the oldest classes a completely necessary over haul? Your questioning of this subject is rather offensive to us veteran players.

[slarden]

So we are agreeing here. I just believe this extra DC should be epic only, not something in the assassin cores. Either on gear or epic destiny or epic feats.

If it is in the capstone it is effectively epic only.

[slarden]

a dex to assassin dc is exactly what rogues need. The highest dc achievable is within 70-75 and that is with all levels to intelligence, intelligence from ED's, heroic enhancements, assassinate items, and everything else. That requires a VERY heavy pull from other versatile aspects of the rogue. Their base dps gets sumped and everything. Even some speccing into the harper tree, which more people than you think find the tree rather repulsive. What i don't understand is how you have no problem taking a back of the line class, like bards, who were only there to buff parties and,offer crowd and give them a LITERAL FRONT LINE near incompetable (at least for single target melees) dps tree. but question giving one of the oldest classes a completely necessary over haul? Your questioning of this subject is rather offensive to us veteran players.

I walked through this in another thread where someone was demanding proof that 77 was possible. The max sustainable assassinate DC is at least 80 including ship buffs and yugo pots, but not including any other non-sustainable buffs like store pots, cookies, turn-in potions, etc. ship buffs and yugo pots you can effectively run all the time.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5566708

[nibel]

If it is in the capstone it is effectively epic only.

When I mean a fix at epics, I mean something else to scale from level 21+. The difference between a level 19 rogue and a level 20 rogue with capstone and shadowdancer is +11 DC (+12 if the int bump goes to an even number).

Assassins need new level 21+ gear to compete. Stacking more stuff at level 20 will just make leveling on epics irrelevant. That is one of the reasons that almost no one stay at level 28 for too long. The power between a level 20-23 and 28 character is just too similar.