Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Erofen]

*In response to making Assassinate use better of dex/int*

I would be happy to play my assassin like an assassin as an int build if they would kindly give int builds:

- insightful reflexes in the capstone
- int to hit and int to damage for free

This sounds reasonable if the int to damage is limited to the assassin weapons, and would provide more build diversity. I would also be in favor of this change.

[redoubt]

I like the idea of augments for assassinate in addition to items. If they make augments non-stacking and 2 less than the highest assassinate item in the game it's a reasonable trade-off. You can either wear the best items in the game or slot an augment with 2 less assassinate vs. the highest item in the game. It's the same trade-off we have now with stats, resistance, protection, prr, natural armor, etc.

This would provide the most build flexibility vs. just making a higher assassinate item every so often.

The whole point is for them to stack with other items, the same as they do for all the spell schools. This would be INSTEAD of adding higher DC items.

Option 1: Add higher DC items. This would be a total range of +1 to +6. All non stacking, but at various levels.

Option 2: Keep the highest item at +4 and add stacking augments of +1/+2. Still a total of +6.

In either case I'd like to see items start at +1 up to the highest +4/+6 spread throughout the levels.

[nokowi]

I assume this is due to being able to take other things that make the character more survivable? Could you elaborate on how you see a couple DCs removing that play style?

Pure 20 DC assassins are squishy because they rely on light armor and dodge chances without a chance to use AC or PRR>100. Stealth is currently used both to stay alive, as well as to maximize kills. If you allow a multiclass that removes this weakness, this build immediately will be become much more viable than using slow moving stealth.

The reason stealth is gone is that is that you don't need stealth to assassinate. You simply walk into the room 2nd, and hit the stealth button and hit the assassinate button on a mob with agro on someone else. Alternately, you can take advantage of the blinded condition to do the same (think of a fast moving monk with flash bang(ninja spy) or shadow lance (shadowdancer) that walks up and assassinates while the stealth rogue is still creeping into the room).

Mark my words, stealth is dead if you allow multiclass.

[slarden]

The whole point is for them to stack with other items, the same as they do for all the spell schools. This would be INSTEAD of adding higher DC items.

Option 1: Add higher DC items. This would be a total range of +1 to +6. All non stacking, but at various levels.

Option 2: Keep the highest item at +4 and add stacking augments of +1/+2. Still a total of +6.

In either case I'd like to see items start at +1 up to the highest +4/+6 spread throughout the levels.

Yeah that would be good. Or they can have regular assassinate augments that don't stack with assassinate items and exceptional assassinate augments that do.

My point is if they make a new item every so often in one slot with the best assassinate it will be pain to keep changing gear around. Helmet worked quite nice, but if they make the next item a bracer it's going to be a pain.

[Bobby88888]

In my opinion, skilled assassins are about 10-15% behind bards in raw killing ability. Skilled assassins might get about 1/2 of their kills from assassinate and 1/2 from DPS. Assassinate is currently on a 15 second timer. If assassins got a 20-30% boost to assassinate kills, they would be on par with bard for total kills. Because assassins can sometimes 2x assassinate, this might involve reducing the timer at the lower end by 20%. Dropping the assassinate timer from 15 to 12 seconds puts assassins on a competitive kill basis with bards, and would make them undoubtedly the supreme melee insta-killer.

This sounds like a nice thing to bring assassins back up a little in the insta kill department.

[dualscissors]

Pure 20 DC assassins are squishy because they rely on light armor and dodge chances without a chance to use AC or PRR>100. Stealth is currently used both to stay alive, as well as to maximize kills. If you allow a multiclass that removes this weakness, this build immediately will be become much more viable than using slow moving stealth.

The reason stealth is gone is that is that you don't need stealth to assassinate. You simply walk into the room 2nd, and hit the stealth button and hit the assassinate button on a mob with agro on someone else. Alternately, you can take advantage of the blinded condition to do the same (think of a fast moving monk with flash bang(ninja spy) or shadow lance (shadowdancer) that walks up and assassinates while the stealth rogue is still creeping into the room).

Mark my words, stealth is dead if you allow multiclass.

Which splashes/abilities for 1-2 levels are you imagining that will drastically improve survivability? Are you thinking of Fighter 1 for Heavy Armor proficiency? The splashes I'm thinking of are moderate boosts to self-healing and/or PRR but the rogue is enough behind that a splash build would just become "decent" in those departments. I think the survivability would help but not be good enough to brazenly strut into a pack of mobs - and stealth would still be effective and not dumped.

[amsharkwei]

The fighting style for assassin is "one hit , one kill" , that's why we need more assassnate DC.

If an assassin can't deal successful assassnate , he are just a Light-Armor-Fighter

[FlaviusMaximus]

The reason stealth is gone is that is that you don't need stealth to assassinate. You simply walk into the room 2nd, and hit the stealth button and hit the assassinate button on a mob with agro on someone else. Alternately, you can take advantage of the blinded condition to do the same (think of a fast moving monk with flash bang(ninja spy) or shadow lance (shadowdancer) that walks up and assassinates while the stealth rogue is still creeping into the room).

Mark my words, stealth is dead if you allow multiclass.

Is that meant to sound ominous? Because it sounds wonderful. Assassinate was so much more fun to use when it was jump, sneak for a quarter of a second, Assassinate, keep swinging, repeat.

[Qezuzu]

Pure 20 DC assassins are squishy because they rely on light armor and dodge chances without a chance to use AC or PRR>100. Stealth is currently used both to stay alive, as well as to maximize kills. If you allow a multiclass that removes this weakness, this build immediately will be become much more viable than using slow moving stealth.

The reason stealth is gone is that is that you don't need stealth to assassinate. You simply walk into the room 2nd, and hit the stealth button and hit the assassinate button on a mob with agro on someone else. Alternately, you can take advantage of the blinded condition to do the same (think of a fast moving monk with flash bang(ninja spy) or shadow lance (shadowdancer) that walks up and assassinates while the stealth rogue is still creeping into the room).

Mark my words, stealth is dead if you allow multiclass.

I simply don't understand your line of logic here.

Stealth IS dead. Approximately zero PUGs accommodate it. The only place you see stealth being used extensively is by players like you and I when soloing. And I don't use stealth because it's easier (I won't lie though, it is easier and it would still be easier if I had a 2 Pal splash or whatever), I use it because I enjoy it. Everyone who doesn't like using stealth when soloing, they don't play Rogue anymore.

Assassinate being effective on one, singular build, to me that just screams design flaw when compared to all the other abilities in DDO.

[slarden]

I simply don't understand your line of logic here.

Stealth IS dead. Approximately zero PUGs accommodate it. The only place you see stealth being used extensively is by players like you and I when soloing. And I don't use stealth because it's easier (I won't lie though, it is easier and it would still be easier if I had a 2 Pal splash or whatever), I use it because I enjoy it. Everyone who doesn't like using stealth when soloing, they don't play Rogue anymore.

Assassinate being effective on one, singular build, to me that just screams design flaw when compared to all the other abilities in DDO.

You can use stealth in a group, but the speed differential with the rest of the party does make it problematic. Rogues will be going from 75% normal speed to 90% normal speed if they take sneak speed + the new speed boost, but there is no way to keep up with other players running at full speed + speed boosts. I still use stealth as best I can.

I don't solo on my rogue much at all and I find the sneak speed to be problematic.

[draven1]

The fighting style for assassin is "one hit , one kill" , that's why we need more assassnate DC.

If an assassin can't deal successful assassnate , he are just a Light-Armor-Fighter

When twf heavy armored pally defender or barb on everlasting LD blitz can no save instakill on every 5% hit,
all of this discussion may not have any meaning.
Or druid swf+twf exploiter does it on faster pace.

Sadly, it's current status of DDO on live.

[Qezuzu]

You can use stealth in a group, but the speed differential with the rest of the party does make it problematic. Rogues will be going from 75% normal speed to 90% normal speed if they take sneak speed + the new speed boost, but there is no way to keep up with other players running at full speed + speed boosts. I still use stealth as best I can.

I don't solo on my rogue much at all and I find the sneak speed to be problematic.

Being in sneak is not stealth. Sneak is only useful in a group for building up Measure the Foe and being ready to Assassinate.

Stealth play is actively avoiding the attention of mobs, which doesn't happen when the group is killing everything at light speed.

[slarden]

Being in sneak is not stealth. Sneak is only useful in a group for building up Measure the Foe and being ready to Assassinate.

Stealth play is actively avoiding the attention of mobs, which doesn't happen when the group is killing everything at light speed.

If the group is killing everything at light speed I wouldn't think you are getting mob attention.

[FlaviusMaximus]

I have an off the wall idea.

Assassinate is really strongly tied to Rogue level and there is almost no wiggle room when it comes to building a character that wants to utilize the ability. That is problematic, in my mind, because it eliminates the best feature of this game - the customization. Right now, it's go single class or don't bother. With the proposed changes so far, I don't think this changes much.

What if assassinate was completely untethered to Rogue level but the cooldown was instead? For example, instead of the DC being 10 + Rogue level, what if the DC was simple base 30 and then the cooldown is decreased by 1 second at core 12, 2 more seconds at core 18, and 2 more seconds (for a total of 5) at core 20?

Doing this would still give single class Rogues a distinct advantage when it came to assassination but it would make building a lot more interesting.

[draven1]

Being in sneak is not stealth. Sneak is only useful in a group for building up Measure the Foe and being ready to Assassinate.

Stealth play is actively avoiding the attention of mobs, which doesn't happen when the group is killing everything at light speed.

Sneak is very good for positioning, it gives very good tactical benefits itself.

But, for current endgame-meta(mindless zerg-fest chaos), it's almost nothing.
Who cares it when mobs are 20+ on red DA situation for almost every encounter.

[Ayseifn]

I have an off the wall suggestion.

Assassinate is really strongly tied to Rogue level and there is almost no wiggle room when it comes to building a character that wants to utilize the ability. That is problematic, in my mind, because it eliminates the best feature of this game - the customization. Right now, it's go single class or don't bother. With the proposed changes so far, I don't think this changes much.

What if assassinate was completely untethered to Rogue level but the cooldown was instead? For example, instead of the DC being 10 + Rogue level, what if the DC was simple base 30 and then the cooldown is decreased by 1 second at core 12, 2 more seconds at core 18, and 2 more seconds (for a total of 5) at core 20?

Doing this would still give single class Rogues a distinct advantage when it came to assassination but it would make building a lot more interesting.

That'd open things up massively possible for level splits but doubt it'd do much for the AP spending side of things. At best you'd save 5 or so AP from not needing to hit 40 AP spent on the assassin tree for the capstone.

[nibel]

We might be agreeing, but I'm not sure.

Adding a few points to DC in assassin, for me, opens up options in Epic Destiny. An assassin that wants to assassinate needs to run in Shadow Dancer. I don't know of any other build that is as restricted. Other builds get to choose from 2 or more destinies that are beneficial for them. Until you can afford to give up 6 INT from shadow dancer you cannot run anywhere else.

So to answer your comment about how adding DC to assassin does not encourage anything new, I reply with, it does encourage assassins to run in other destinies.

I disagree. Someone that do not run in EE already do not care about the +3 DC on shadowdancer (the T1 twist is enough), but someone who DO run EE will get every single extra point in DC they can achieve. This will still pidgeonhole assassin builds into shadowdancer because Magister is an awful tree for rogues (and for casters, but I digress), Draconic don't offer much options either, and no other epic destiny gives you +int options.

If you want to take them out of this hole, the answer is not more DC on heroic enhancements. The answer is making the other EDs that allow you to pick Int to suck less. Or speed up the artificer ED and hope it works with melee attacks as well.

There is also a difference in the base DC formula. Spells are, at most, 19 from 10 + spell level, while assassinate is 30 (assuming pure) from 10 + rogue level. So I think it's fairly balanced in that regard. I also realize this limits multiclass options, however, but that doesn't concern me personally.

On the other hand, spells have many more ways to raise their DC than rogues. Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Active PL: Wizard, Epic Spell Focus, random focus items (up to +6), spell focus augments (+2), and I think you can get 2 or 3 DC from some unique items, as well.

This means build and itemization can make a spell DC go from 19 + int to 19+4+6+2+(2~3) = 33-36+int.

Rogues have a single item enhancement. That caps at +4. And only found in two rare items found in undead-based zones (rogues do not excel at fighting undeads). And that push their DC to 34+int.

It is kinda balanced if you look at the DC value only, but then you remember that assassinate is a single ability with a ton of conditionals, while a primary caster raising their DC buffs out their entire arsenal of spells. So, while the DC-based assassin can't assasinate any undead or deathwarded mob in that specific dungeon, the palemaster is cursing that he can't pull his big instakills, but is instead forced to use his not-optimal webs and disco balls and disintegrates and whatever.

IMO, Assassinate SHOULD have a higher DC than spells, simply from the fact that you can't assassinate as fast and as easily as a caster can cast. At heroics this is the scenario. Once you hit epics, Assassinate DC stagnates. And that should be fixed. In epic levels.

[redoubt]

I disagree. Someone that do not run in EE already do not care about the +3 DC on shadowdancer (the T1 twist is enough), but someone who DO run EE will get every single extra point in DC they can achieve. This will still pidgeonhole assassin builds into shadowdancer because Magister is an awful tree for rogues (and for casters, but I digress), Draconic don't offer much options either, and no other epic destiny gives you +int options.

If you want to take them out of this hole, the answer is not more DC on heroic enhancements. The answer is making the other EDs that allow you to pick Int to suck less. Or speed up the artificer ED and hope it works with melee attacks as well.

I agree that people not running EE probably don't worry about the 3 DC from 6 INT in SD.

Now, if we had, say, 3 more DC. You could skip spending 12 destiny points on INT; this allows you run in a melee destiny that does better damage. I.e. LD or DC. Adding INT to those other trees would not be needed.

[SealedInSong]

I simply don't understand your line of logic here.

Stealth IS dead. Approximately zero PUGs accommodate it. The only place you see stealth being used extensively is by players like you and I when soloing. And I don't use stealth because it's easier (I won't lie though, it is easier and it would still be easier if I had a 2 Pal splash or whatever), I use it because I enjoy it. Everyone who doesn't like using stealth when soloing, they don't play Rogue anymore.

Assassinate being effective on one, singular build, to me that just screams design flaw when compared to all the other abilities in DDO.

Will it be obnoxious to have this in triplicate? Oh well. I can't stress enough how against the spirit of DDO it is to have an ability only work in one build, and encourage everyone to cookie cutter said build or the ability won't work in endgame.

Assassinate being effective on one, singular build, to me that just screams design flaw when compared to all the other abilities in DDO.

Assassinate being effective on one, singular build, to me that just screams design flaw when compared to all the other abilities in DDO.

Assassinate being effective on one, singular build, to me that just screams design flaw when compared to all the other abilities in DDO.

[nokowi]

I simply don't understand your line of logic here.

Stealth IS dead. Approximately zero PUGs accommodate it. The only place you see stealth being used extensively is by players like you and I when soloing. And I don't use stealth because it's easier (I won't lie though, it is easier and it would still be easier if I had a 2 Pal splash or whatever), I use it because I enjoy it. Everyone who doesn't like using stealth when soloing, they don't play Rogue anymore.

Assassinate being effective on one, singular build, to me that just screams design flaw when compared to all the other abilities in DDO.

I have no idea why you think assassin is for solo play. It is much more powerful in groups. My pace is 5-10x faster in a group. I am much more effective in a group because I always get sneak attack, and I can focus on the mobs where my abilities are most useful. If you think stealth is dead, you don't know how to play stealth assassin. It does take a bunch of skill that many players don't seem to have.

Assassin does not have one singular build. Just because you have one class does not mean you are not choosing abilities from 5 different trees. People prioritize different things, and have different play styles that causes them to pick different things. This is also true when you look at Shadowdancer epic destiny.

Right now you have to choose between more melee dps and higher DC. There will be less gameplay (not build) choices when the answer becomes to maximize dps WITH no fail DC.

I can guarantee you that if 100 players copied my build, they would have much different results in an EE quest. Even among skilled players, there is a big variety in how we move through a dungeon and what specific choices we make. While there many not be as many build choices as for multiclass toons, there are much more gameplay choices with assassin that with any other class, and these choices have much bigger consequences than with any other class. Please don't confuse build choices with gameplay choices. They are different things.