Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Qezuzu]

My only problem with Assassinate is that it forbids any multiclassing. Assassin tree would be buffed if you could make viable 18/2, 16/2/2, 16/4, etc. builds that are centered around Assassin tree, and adding DC to the 18 and 20 cores doesn't help this. At the moment, the huge cost to multi-classing is the biggest problem with the tree IMO.

I would much rather see something like an increase in the base DC (i.e. from 10 to 12) or giving Assassinate DC to Rogue past lives. The close-to-max DC is only needed in a very small amount of content anyway, something that undergeared, first life Assassins shouldn't concern themselves too much with.

[ToastyFred]

I have 1 word for you:

Web


You don't need an assassinate DC to succeed if you have a improved traps + disable device. Assassinate just speeds things up if you use it effectively.

Assassins aren't Mechanics. Assassins prefer to kill stuff up close and personal. Traps are for wussies.

[bbqzor]

Did you ignore every other ability along the way?

No, if you bothered to read the thread you would see I had not. Feel free to go back and look, Ive said Int has many benefits tons of times. However:

Its the same investment a wizard makes to power every ability they get; all spells, enhancements, etc. A rogue is forced into the same situation to use just one thing. Yes, they can use int to dmg or ref or what not, yes. But those would work equally well through any number of other paths like dex, str, cha for pdk rogues, whatever. Point being, its overly demanding. And obviously so. Assassinate has one setup that makes it work, its devoid of any thought or skill on the players end, its the only combo that works.

Just because there is one working situation doesnt mean it shouldnt get fixed. Contemporary formula got shot down, Dex got shot down, now theyre at DC boost. Hopefully that will go in... because at this point there isnt really much left. If it gets left as is, I expect many rogues to change direction, its just not worth spending your entire character to get 1 kill every 15s if youre lucky, when you could take all those resources and do something else with much better returns. You could even stay in assassin and get better returns, 3 epic feats alone can get you a lot more bang than +3 int even if you stick with int for atk/dmg. Let alone the 15 destiny points.

I mean really, theres just no reason to look at this thing like the holy grail anymore. Back when shroud was new maybe. But new stealth mechanics interacting badly, an increase in numbers of mobs everywhere, and overly demanding dc just marginalize it too much. This thread is now over 40 pages, and there stopped being any feedback about much of anything besides assassinate dc like 20 pages ago. The only comments are "its fine using this one setup even in ee, when it doesnt work just dps" and then "fine but theres probably a better solution out there". I dont really have much more to add, so Im done until some kind of change happens. They need to just go ahead and pick a solution and go with it. Leaving it alone because no one could agree for 40 pages is just the community robbing itself. I hope the devs do something, it should be painfully obvious some change is needed. Just make a command decision and go. Cheers all.

[Torvaldsberg]

It seems that most of the top assassins agree that the DC isn't a big issue with a proper build, and that the biggest drawback to the current status is the lack of diversity...we can achieve the needed DC, we just can't do it in more than one or two ways.

It brings me back to one of my original thoughts: Why not give all classes a bonus by setting all enhancement costs to 1 per ability/upgrade once the character has 20 levels in a single class? This would allow some unused options and combinations to suddenly be achievable and wouldn't affect the early game at all. The extra points could make unusual racial choices or secondary tree choices much more meaningful, giving some much needed diversity.

[ToastyFred]

Core 18: Lethality.

On a confirmed 20 from a sneak attack (not sneak mode) and assassinate check is made. If successful the mob dies and a 15 second cool down timer starts. Note: This would not likely benefit from MtF.

Core 20:
Add +2 Assassinate DC (Instead of 1 at 18 and 1 at 20).
Drop +2 dex
Add +2 INT (total 4)

Better? The capstone is just a collection of what many people seem to be saying. Lethality, triggering an assassinate check on a "vorpal" would be very unique and very much in the "assassin" flavor while adding dps/instakill in a new way (without creating any new mechanics.)

Nice. I like this best of all the suggestions.

[nibel]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

I'm against this for a simple reason: Assassinate DC is working fine for heroic play.

I know this contradicts my previous statement that I was ok with dex-based Assassination. But my previous reason was to open dex-based builds as an option. Right now, it is go Int or go home. Giving options to dex is a good thing.

Just putting a +2 DC in a class archetype that already requires you to be a pure rogue to maximize DC will not encourage anything it was not already encouraging before.

The main problem with Assassinate DC is that once you reach level 20, your DC will stay almost the same for the entire epic levels. Assuming you already have Shadowdancer maximized, and an Epic Midnight Greetings, from level 20 to 28 you will get:

+2 from Dark Diversion or Mythic Muffled Veener
+1 from advancement stat raises (24, 28)
+2 from Intelligence gear (Int +11 instead of +8; Insightful Int +3 instead of +2)
=====
+5 DC at level 28

And at the same time, the mob saves from an EE level 20 quest (Sentinels, Carnival, King's Forest) raises much more than 5 points from endgame EE saves.

The balance on Assassination DC must be done on epic, not on Heroic. Allow epic levels (or even SHADOWDANCER levels) to count for Assassination DC, create epic-only Assassinate random items, I don't know. But messing with the last two capstones will only unbalance high heroic content if you want to run at level, and I doubt it will be enough to keep level 30 EE balanced for too long, because spell DC raises much faster than Assassinate DC, and both are fighting against the same save value.

[depositbox]

It brings me back to one of my original thoughts: Why not give all classes a bonus by setting all enhancement costs to 1 per ability/upgrade once the character has 20 levels in a single class?

Yes, Bards, Pally, and Barbs needed an additional 80AP.

[amsharkwei]

Coup de Grace is based on a Perform skill , but it's just a melee attack.

Assassnate need sneak to active , it's need move silently skill and hide skill , but Assassnate'd DC is not base on skill

Please explain Sev, please. WHY Assassnate need sneak but not skill based DC.

Shark~

[maddong]

Yes, orcs and giants. And, you don't have to believe me.

Maybe they get a spell save bonus. Is someone saying your wrong because they are using necro spells?

[Ayseifn]

Adding a point or two to the capstone means losing even one rogue level will cost you 3-4 DC which locks you into pure even more so than now. Sure you can now go into better EDs and have a bit more wiggle room with heroic AP but you're locked into pure int rogue with dagger/kukri. If the total bonus from the cores is higher than 2 per core though it may open up dex/str based for the uber geared, but again still stuck with dagger/kukri and still have to be pure.

What's needed is better scaling in epic, in heroic levels you're getting 1-3DC per level(no idea on average) but after the huge boost at 20 the scaling drops off to closer to averaging 0.5DC per level. I don't think there are any DC issues in heroic and assassinate may even be too good there, similar thing with the massive boost at 20 making low level epics easy enough but the lack of scaling in epics is where things hurt later on.

Edit: all that's really needed is some more high level items with a higher +assassinate really. A stacking ML: 28 augment, new item that's +6 or whatever doesn't really matter.

[Full_Bleed]

On an assassin, int increases to hit, damage, reflex save, skill points per level, trap skills, and assassinate DC. It's not just "ONE ability." There is a lot of synergy there that you seem to be ignoring.

Not ignoring them. All core stats have collateral benefits to a class. Collateral benefits from a high stat are not the driving force for "DC builds". There are very specific benchmarks for very specific spells/abilities that DC builds are building for. For the assassins, it's ASSASSINATE. DC Monks & Clerics, for example, don't take Wisdom for the will save.

I could also nit-pick and say that you might be reaching more than a little, too. Assassins don't need that much INT for traps. Everyone doesn't have Harper. And most would agree that the skillpoints certainly aren't "needed" or the driving force behind raising the relevant "DCs".

[Razor_Wit]

This could be the rogue version of a favored enemy....except Rogues would receive bonus to assassinate DC for their favored anatomy (race) due to their extensive knowledge of chosen races anatomy. If we can't raise assassinate DC overall...i'll settle for small improvements here @ there.

[redoubt]

I'm against this for a simple reason: Assassinate DC is working fine for heroic play.

I know this contradicts my previous statement that I was ok with dex-based Assassination. But my previous reason was to open dex-based builds as an option. Right now, it is go Int or go home. Giving options to dex is a good thing.

Just putting a +2 DC in a class archetype that already requires you to be a pure rogue to maximize DC will not encourage anything it was not already encouraging before.

The main problem with Assassinate DC is that once you reach level 20, your DC will stay almost the same for the entire epic levels. Assuming you already have Shadowdancer maximized, and an Epic Midnight Greetings, from level 20 to 28 you will get:

+2 from Dark Diversion or Mythic Muffled Veener
+1 from advancement stat raises (24, 28)
+2 from Intelligence gear (Int +11 instead of +8; Insightful Int +3 instead of +2)
=====
+5 DC at level 28

And at the same time, the mob saves from an EE level 20 quest (Sentinels, Carnival, King's Forest) raises much more than 5 points from endgame EE saves.

The balance on Assassination DC must be done on epic, not on Heroic. Allow epic levels (or even SHADOWDANCER levels) to count for Assassination DC, create epic-only Assassinate random items, I don't know. But messing with the last two capstones will only unbalance high heroic content if you want to run at level, and I doubt it will be enough to keep level 30 EE balanced for too long, because spell DC raises much faster than Assassinate DC, and both are fighting against the same save value.

We might be agreeing, but I'm not sure.

Adding a few points to DC in assassin, for me, opens up options in Epic Destiny. An assassin that wants to assassinate needs to run in Shadow Dancer. I don't know of any other build that is as restricted. Other builds get to choose from 2 or more destinies that are beneficial for them. Until you can afford to give up 6 INT from shadow dancer you cannot run anywhere else.

So to answer your comment about how adding DC to assassin does not encourage anything new, I reply with, it does encourage assassins to run in other destinies.

[redoubt]

On adding Assassinate DC for epic levels, consider adding them in proration to the rogue levels. (This is a concept I threw out for caster levels increases back when epic levels were new.)

Examples:

20 Rogue. Every Epic level adds one "rogue level".

18 Rogue/2 xxx. Every epic level adds .9 rogue level (rounded down.) At level 30, this would add 9 "rogue levels" and 1 xxx level.

10 Rogue/10 xxx. Every epic level adds .5 rogue level (rounded down.) At level 30, this would add 5 "rogue levels" and 5 xxx levels.

I quote rogue levels, because they are still epic levels but you use "rogue level" in the assassinate DC formula.

This might open up some additional multiclass options while still giving some reward for pure classes.

Note: This concept could also be used for ALL classes.

[nokowi]

No, if you bothered to read the thread you would see I had not. Feel free to go back and look, Ive said Int has many benefits tons of times. However:

Its the same investment a wizard makes to power every ability they get; all spells, enhancements, etc. A rogue is forced into the same situation to use just one thing. Yes, they can use int to dmg or ref or what not, yes. But those would work equally well through any number of other paths like dex, str, cha for pdk rogues, whatever. Point being, its overly demanding. And obviously so. Assassinate has one setup that makes it work, its devoid of any thought or skill on the players end, its the only combo that works.

Just because there is one working situation doesnt mean it shouldnt get fixed. Contemporary formula got shot down, Dex got shot down, now theyre at DC boost. Hopefully that will go in... because at this point there isnt really much left. If it gets left as is, I expect many rogues to change direction, its just not worth spending your entire character to get 1 kill every 15s if youre lucky, when you could take all those resources and do something else with much better returns. You could even stay in assassin and get better returns, 3 epic feats alone can get you a lot more bang than +3 int even if you stick with int for atk/dmg. Let alone the 15 destiny points.

I mean really, theres just no reason to look at this thing like the holy grail anymore. Back when shroud was new maybe. But new stealth mechanics interacting badly, an increase in numbers of mobs everywhere, and overly demanding dc just marginalize it too much. This thread is now over 40 pages, and there stopped being any feedback about much of anything besides assassinate dc like 20 pages ago. The only comments are "its fine using this one setup even in ee, when it doesnt work just dps" and then "fine but theres probably a better solution out there". I dont really have much more to add, so Im done until some kind of change happens. They need to just go ahead and pick a solution and go with it. Leaving it alone because no one could agree for 40 pages is just the community robbing itself. I hope the devs do something, it should be painfully obvious some change is needed. Just make a command decision and go. Cheers all.

Assassin takes more skill than any other build in the game right now. It takes understanding of what mobs do, what other players do, timing and position, risk vs reward, and gear and build decisions. Look at other people wanting a higher DC to solo (without gear) that refuse to use traps. These people are not going to be able to solo EE if you give them a DC 200 assassinate. They will need 100 more PRR, 400 more HP, cc, and heals to have a chance soloing EE content. All of this needs to be provided for free because these players don't want to go get gear. These players should just roll up a bard.

Assassin is an example how all builds should work, including learning how to play through progressively harder content while acquiring gear, and making very important build choices. Do you take 30 melee action power from TA, or improved scroll healing from mechanic? Do you max int or go for melee power? Do you build usable Will saves with slippery mind? Do you grab defensive roll from acrobat? What race and racial AP do you grab, and what are you willing to give up for these?

Players unwilling to take advantage of the abilities assassins do have should not be dictating changes to a class that works wonderfully. Every new piece of gear you find will make you that much better.

Instead of being jealous of bards, players should pity them. What gear could be added in the next update that a bard could possibly care about? As an assassin, I have much to look forward to.

[nokowi]

We might be agreeing, but I'm not sure.

Adding a few points to DC in assassin, for me, opens up options in Epic Destiny. An assassin that wants to assassinate needs to run in Shadow Dancer. I don't know of any other build that is as restricted. Other builds get to choose from 2 or more destinies that are beneficial for them. Until you can afford to give up 6 INT from shadow dancer you cannot run anywhere else.

So to answer your comment about how adding DC to assassin does not encourage anything new, I reply with, it does encourage assassins to run in other destinies.

Right now assassins have at least 5 distinct builds.

1. Int based DC (shadowdancer)
2. Dex based DPS (shadowdancer)
3. Fury of the Wild
4. Legendary Dreadnaught
5. Ranged Build

Giving 6 more Int or +3 DC will result in 2 builds:
1. Max DPS with assassinate
2. Ranged flavor build

There will now be 4x as many toons fighting for insta-kills. I can guarantee that slow moving stealth assassins will have no chance in this environment.

If would be sad to kill DC stealth assassin because players feel they have the right to have everything.

[nokowi]

I'm against this for a simple reason: Assassinate DC is working fine for heroic play.

I know this contradicts my previous statement that I was ok with dex-based Assassination. But my previous reason was to open dex-based builds as an option. Right now, it is go Int or go home. Giving options to dex is a good thing.

Just putting a +2 DC in a class archetype that already requires you to be a pure rogue to maximize DC will not encourage anything it was not already encouraging before.

The main problem with Assassinate DC is that once you reach level 20, your DC will stay almost the same for the entire epic levels. Assuming you already have Shadowdancer maximized, and an Epic Midnight Greetings, from level 20 to 28 you will get:

+2 from Dark Diversion or Mythic Muffled Veener
+1 from advancement stat raises (24, 28)
+2 from Intelligence gear (Int +11 instead of +8; Insightful Int +3 instead of +2)
=====
+5 DC at level 28

And at the same time, the mob saves from an EE level 20 quest (Sentinels, Carnival, King's Forest) raises much more than 5 points from endgame EE saves.

The balance on Assassination DC must be done on epic, not on Heroic. Allow epic levels (or even SHADOWDANCER levels) to count for Assassination DC, create epic-only Assassinate random items, I don't know. But messing with the last two capstones will only unbalance high heroic content if you want to run at level, and I doubt it will be enough to keep level 30 EE balanced for too long, because spell DC raises much faster than Assassinate DC, and both are fighting against the same save value.

Your post proves that level 20-25 DC's are really easy to achieve. I can go into GH at level 20 and have the highest kill count for most groups. Assassinate DC is not what holds players back. It's the lack of player skill, not understanding or being unwilling to use the abilities that do exist, and poor decision making that prevents players from succeeding at assassin. None of these will be fixed by raising DC's.

If people argued for a +4 DC item at lvl 24-25, and a better than +4 DC item in new content, these would be much more valid arguments than changing core rogue assassinate DC's.

[redoubt]

Right now assassins have at least 5 distinct builds.

1. Int based DC (shadowdancer)
2. Dex based DPS (shadowdancer)
3. Fury of the Wild
4. Legendary Dreadnaught
5. Ranged Build

Giving 6 more Int or +3 DC will result in 2 builds:
1. Max DPS with assassinate
2. Ranged flavor build

There will now be 4x as many toons fighting for insta-kills. I can guarantee that slow moving stealth assassins will have no chance in this environment.

If would be sad to kill DC stealth assassin because players feel they have the right to have everything.

1. INT based assassins I am familiar with.
2. I had a dex based assassin a long time ago. Cthru convinced me to go INT based instead (even before harper.) Can you elaborate on the existing DEX based assassins?
3. Can you please elaborate on the build that assassinates and runs in Fury of the Wild?
4. Same, but for LD.
5. Assassinate is a melee only skill.

Yes, people can use the assassin tree and not use the T5 assassinate ability. While I understand that the revamp is about more than one enhancement, all DC discussions are about that one enhancement. When I say that adding DC will open up epic destinies, I mean WHILE assassinating. I already ran a pure rogue assassin in DC; I just didn't bother to assassinate.

On the whole, I would argue that assassinate assassins have ONE build: INT based in Shadow Dancer.

I've said all along that all that is really needed (imo) is a couple points. When you compare a DC caster to an assassin you see:
..............caster.........assassin
level 15.....+4...............+2 (only shadar-kai)
level 20........................+2
level 24.....+1 aug
level 26.....+6
level 28.....+2 aug.........+4

................+8................+4 totals

Look back and you will see that I said a +6 item OR +1/2 augments would be good for gear. I've said that adding 1 or 2 points in the tree would be okay, but not more. I understand the rare space that you and CThru are trying to protect.

I also understand when some people want options for multi-class assassinates and other options and so I get involved there and discuss ideas.

Going back farther, I've been involved in the discussions about making stealth better. I even presented an idea for critical success and failure on assassinates. I love this class, but it needs help. Some help has arrived (agro is better) and some is coming, so I am hopeful.

p.s. slow moving stealth assassins already have no chance to assassinate in most groups. That's another thing I've lobbied for: sneak speed. Very early in this thread I even discussed allowing sneak speed to exceed normal speed. Its the only way to keep up with all the classes that have movement speed buffs. The only thing an assassin can do today is run with the group, pick an outlier that didn't die in the initial energy burst/dragon breath attacks and drop into to assassinate it while it moves to the intimi-paladin with 25% of its health left (and this means being in front of it because it is moving and the hit box is so small you have to anticipate the attack so that the server believes you were close enough.)

[Bobby88888]

Assassin takes more skill than any other build in the game right now. It takes understanding of what mobs do, what other players do, timing and position, risk vs reward, and gear and build decisions. Look at other people wanting a higher DC to solo (without gear) that refuse to use traps. These people are not going to be able to solo EE if you give them a DC 200 assassinate. They will need 100 more PRR, 400 more HP, cc, and heals to have a chance soloing EE content. All of this needs to be provided for free because these players don't want to go get gear. These players should just roll up a bard.

Assassin is an example how all builds should work, including learning how to play through progressively harder content while acquiring gear, and making very important build choices. Do you take 30 melee action power from TA, or improved scroll healing from mechanic? Do you max int or go for melee power? Do you build usable Will saves with slippery mind? Do you grab defensive roll from acrobat? What race and racial AP do you grab, and what are you willing to give up for these?

Players unwilling to take advantage of the abilities assassins do have should not be dictating changes to a class that works wonderfully. Every new piece of gear you find will make you that much better.

Instead of being jealous of bards, players should pity them. What gear could be added in the next update that a bard could possibly care about? As an assassin, I have much to look forward to.

Well said I couldn't agree more

[slarden]

Specifically adding assassinate to the Combat Mastery item list of things it affects would not directly benefit any one class more than rogue. In regard to increasing assassinate at rogue 18 or 20... You are already rewarding players for staying pure because non-pure rogues cannot achieve effective DCs, so making those cores add more seems like you are thumbing the nose at anyone that wants to build outside the cookie cutter. If anywhere, put it at the core 12 so that a player can still have some flexibility in build and remain viable. Also make the calculation DC 20 + 1/2 rogue level + int to make the scaling less horrific.

If they do this why would anyone ever want go pure?