Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Torvaldsberg]

Maybe add +1 assassinate DC per rogue past life?

Beat me to it, but this would seem reasonable to me.

It wouldn't be extremely overwhelming, 3 more DC on a purpose built build would help when there is no time to wait on 'Measure the Foe'. It could also be used to free up a few enhancement points currently being spent on upping Int, and allow a bit more variety for anyone that feels the 3 extra DC would get them where they need to be. Might allow for some mechanic/racial spending etc. It definitely couldn't hurt to have some flexibility. If, as CThuThe Ego states( and I have no doubt he is right), we can already get to a near no-fail EE DC, this would perhaps let some experimenting occur.

[davmuzl]

We thought about it, but having fighters add more to Assassinate than Rogue didn't feel right.

Sev~

You mean the past life? Because the question is, would it hurt to just make sure that rogue still adds more even with fighter levels.

[CThruTheEgo]

If you're talking about the orcs, I do not believe you.

Yes, orcs and giants. And, you don't have to believe me.

[bbqzor]

players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed

This doesnt represent 100% of us. I, for one, liked seeing the +Ref there. Splashing 2 of another class can easily yield the same save bonus, or more. And since Assassinate is (seemingly, and sadly) stuck to being Int-based, its a serious issue to get enough Ref for consistent EE evasion. Insightful Reflexes is already a heavy, *heavy* feat tax to make assassins pay. And they *have* to pay it, or suffer an unusable assassinate (splitting investments between dex and int just means neither ref or assassinate works high end... the only solution is go all int and take insightful ref).

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs?

The above said, this is a necessary change. I have said the entire time the DC formula is too punishing. And it is. Just because it works with "one perfect setup" doesnt mean it really "works" for gameplay. It just means every assassin has to be the same, and that means no real character building is occuring... everyone is just copying or near-copying the only viable path. Thats the opposite of personal agency and character diversity; the two things that make DDO stand out relative to other games, and invite the most input from the players about how they want to play. Assassins dont get to care about how they want to play, they get to do the one singular thing that works. Its lame. If you arent going to just modernize the formula, this would be the next best thing.

Given the choice between ref save and DC, I would pick DC. But Id rather see both (and not because "oh more power whee"). The rogue class is designed, and seemingly continues to be in this pass, to need successful abilities to play. With prr/mrr, it doesnt matter how successful you are. You just take less damage. Rogues have to make stealth checks, or make assassinate checks, or make reflex checks, or make trap checks, etc.

A fighter can fail his way to victory by just keep swinging and keep healing. Even if hes taking more damage or dealing less damage than he "should" he can still make it. A rogue cant fail his way out of a paper bag; if he cant pass the numbers necessary, he does nothing. Theres no "try until you get it drinking potions" for disarm when a box blows up. Theres no "try again maybe next time" if you dont have enough hide and get seen and cause a train. Theres no "do-over" on evasion if it spikes out and kills you. So its critical (like capstone worthy) to be sure those key things are supported and working. Without that, multiclass will always be the better option.

And dont forget about Shadow Dagger. Think about how hard assassinate is to land, then realize that assassinate has 2 more base dc, gets bonuses from destinies and items and enhancements, and STILL isnt quite scaled appropriately. Im not saying shadow dagger should be great, but I hate seeing things basically stay worthless during a pass. I mean sure it might work at level 3 when you get it or something but maybe you can make it so it works 20+ too. Maybe just add +epic level to the DC or something, so it goes up 8 more from 20 to 28. Shrugs... anythings going to be better than ignoring it.

[dualscissors]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

Sev, thanks again for your activity in the thread.

It is correct that a 64+ INT rogue with Evasion, Improved Evasion, and destiny-based Reflex boosts will already be doing extremely well with trap saves (though I recall having been slammed by Epic 3BC traps when slightly underlevel-undergeared). So I wouldn't say the +4 Reflex is "utterly worthless" to all rogues so much as it is something that only matters in Ghost of a Chance and Prove Your Worth. I'm not sure I'd want to waste our capital with the Devs on a capstone because we can't run through traps in 2 quests.

Without knowing the details of your post's line of questioning, I can take a guess that possibly you're vetting something like a +1 DC to Assassinate at level 18 and +1 at level 20.

I can see this doing a couple of positive things in rewarding a pure or 18-rogue build:

1. uber geared out 36 pt. builds could spend a few APs or ED points on a little versatility, instead of scrounging up the last couple points of INT from Harper or Shadow Dancer. A well thought out build might even sacrifice the best DC for a still-respectable DC and splash 2 Fighter, 1 Cleric, go Legendary Dreadnought, or what have you. (Currently there may be players who do some of these things but at a slightly heavier toll to DC.)

2. less then uber geared out, 32 pt. build toons would not be left out from obtaining a good assassinate score if they did pick up all the INT enhancements.


Speaking of the level 18 core, I've read a number of well articulated posts from rogue players regarding the level 18 core: Lethality and how Vorpal is pretty sad for the core before capstone. I admit I've posted about it myself (though can't vouch for how well articulated it is :-)). Have any of those posts about Vorpal = 100 dmg been compelling to the design team? Or is it a difficult coding issue more than anything?

Thanks!

[CThruTheEgo]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

I'd settle for this. I would prefer to see lethality (the level 18 core) improved along the lines that several have suggested. I also think a better option for the capstone is dropping the +2 dex and raising the int bonus to +4. Now that dex to assassinate is off the table, it really doesn't make sense to have the +2 dex there, and increasing the int bonus has the added effect of increasing assassinate DC while also increasing damage and reflex save by 1.

I would not want to see more than a couple DCs added though. Maybe 1 at 18 and 2 at 20, at most.

I'd be interested to know what you think of my suggestions in this post Sev, particularly the gradual removal of the sneak speed penalty for assassins as part of the first 5 cores and changing it so measure the foe stacks fade 1 every 6 seconds instead of all after 10 seconds. They have both had a positive reception from the community but I haven't yet heard your thoughts regarding them.

Thanks for the continued discussion Sev.

[HatsuharuZ]

We thought about it, but having fighters add more to Assassinate than Rogue didn't feel right.

Sev~

Rogue past lives do not currently improve assassinate, do they? If they don't, could they be changed to do so?

[nokowi]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

This would allow 18 rogue 2 paladin with no fail DC's. Hello Divine Grace and Assassadin!

I prefer a small timer drop over a DC bump.



Drow:
20 = Base Int
+7 Level 28
+6 Tome
+2 Ship Buff
+11 Item
+3 Insightful Item
+1 Globe of Imperial True Blood Augment
+6 Enhancements: +2 Assassin, +2 Rogue 20, +2 Harper
+3 Feats: +2 Completionist, +1 Epic Feat
+3 Epic Destiny: Shadowdancer
_________________________
62 Int (This is what I am using now with DC 66 + 5 MtF = DC 71)

Assassinate DC
10
+20 Rogue
+26 Int
+4 Item: Dark Diversion
+6 Shadowdancer Stealthy
_______
66 + 5 MtF = 71

This can be booster further by:

+2 Int from Enhancements: I can drop 4 Melee Power and add in +2 Int from Enhancements in Drow Racial and Mechanic Trees.
+3 Int from Shadowdancer: Take all 6 +1 Int's and drop neg energy immunity, drop 2 ranks of Lithe, and drop 2 ranks of shrouding strike
+1 Int from Twist: Twist in +1 Int from another destiny.

Int = 68 DC = 69 + 5 MtF = 74

add Epic Litany to my gear set-up (+2 Int)

Int = 70 DC = 70 +5 MtF = 75

Add Yugo Pot (+2), DDO Store Pot (+2), 5 Abishai cookies (+4 but only +2 counts because litany is also profane)

Int = 76 DC = 73 + 5 MtF = 78

Epic Litany of the Dead wont stack with cookies, so DC 78 is my max without dropping trapping skills. DC = 79 is my max if I drop trapping. (add another +1 Drow Racial Int, add 2 More Harper Int, Drop the +1 Mechanic Int).

[dualscissors]

Rogue past lives do not currently improve assassinate, do they? If they don't, could they be changed to do so?

The one thing that sticks out to me about this line of thought is that it's assassin-centric. TAs and Mechanics might want their own share of the pie and don't care if their non-existent Assassinate goes up +1.

[dualscissors]

This would allow 18 rogue 2 paladin with no fail DC's. Hello Divine Grace and Assassadin!

Rogues should have to pass a criminal background check to splash pally! Welcome to the convo Nokowi.

[nokowi]

Rogues should have to pass a criminal background check to splash pally! Welcome to the convo Nokowi.

Dang It! And I was already building my new toon...

[slarden]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

Why not just put both in there?

[slarden]

The one thing that sticks out to me about this line of thought is that it's assassin-centric. TAs and Mechanics might want their own share of the pie and don't care if their non-existent Assassinate goes up +1.

That plus the people that do all the grinding aren't the ones having problems with DC. Adding +1 assassinate for each rogue past life would just increase the gap between the haves and have-nots. Although building an end-game DC caster is quite a long task and everyone seems to have accepted it.

[Full_Bleed]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

Definitely onboard with this.

[davmuzl]

Why not just put both in there?

I think he means that players don't consider it worth enough to invest into it and therefor it needs some additional benefit.

[ToastyFred]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

+2 to Assassinate for each of the last two Core abilities (+4 total to Assassinate for staying pure) sounds right to me.

Someone earlier suggested +1 to Assassinate for each of the last two Cores abilities but I thought that was a bit light.

A compromise could be +1 to Assassinate for the Level 18 Core and a +2 to Assassinate added to the Capstone ability would be something I could live with. It creates a REAL incentive for staying pure.

[nokowi]

As CThrU said, DC's are relatively easy to get outside of Stormhorns. Unless you have every piece of gear, you are not going to try and solo EE stormhorns quests like me. In a group, you don't need auto-success DC's. Just go attack a mob that has agro on someone else. If you fail, they are not even going to turn around and look at you.

As a new player, you may have to go for all Int to get really reliable EE DC's. You could also play EH for a while. As you find items, you get more build choices. This is exactly how a game should play! I saw an earlier post that items don't matter in DDO. They do to assassins right now. You should drool over another +1 resist or +2 more int. You could also get by with lower DC's and play intelligently in a group. You will do fine.

[HuneyMunster]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

This would be much appreciated, maybe +1 for 18 and +1 or 2 for 20. Though I would prefer for 18 core the vorpal effect adds paralyses to living enemies that cannot be killed. This mimics the other part to D&D's Death Attack that has option to chose to either assassinate(kill) or paralyses that renders the target helpless similar to ghoul touch. Base the dc on the assassinate dc or just some formula including rogue level and int mod..


Would it also be possible to take another look at Epic Muffled Veneer. Currently it gives +2 to assassinate while the mythic version gives +4. A +2 can already be found on a level 15 item, though race restricted to Shadar Kai and a level 20 Epic midnight Greetings. Maybe increase non-mythic version to +3.

[ToastyFred]

You could also get by with lower DC's and play intelligently in a group. You will do fine.

Possibly.

Playing in a group isn't really going to make up for a low Assassinate DC. If it's low as a soloer, it's low in a group. The only thing adventuring in a group changes is what happens when you fail on an assassinate attempt. In a group, they're there to pick up your slack. If you're soloing, you could very well die depending on the situation.


Regardless, Rogue Assassins should lend itself well as a soloer. Sneaking around, avoiding certain monsters/situations, and killing a mob or two here and there is something soloers do and it's something Rogue Assassins do best. If you're playing in a group, most likely you're not going to get much of a chance to do what you do best.

[nokowi]

1st Life Human:
18 = Base Int
+7 Level 28
+3 Tome
+2 Ship Buff
+10 Item
+3 Insightful Item
+8 Enhancements: +2 Assassin, +2 Rogue 20, +2 Harper, +1 Human, +1 Mechanic
+3 Feats: +1 Epic Feat
+6 Epic Destiny: Shadowdancer
_________________________
58 Int

Assassinate DC
10
+20 Rogue
+24 Int
+2 Item
+6 Shadowdancer Stealthy
_______
62 + 5 MtF = 67 DC 1st life toon

From here you can loot a Dark Dviersion for 2 more
You can buy/loot a +5 or +6 Int Tome
You can buy/loot a globe of imperial blood off the AH.

DC=70 or 71 1st life toon having run 1 raid 20 times (or getting lucky earlier on a loot drop). Why is this not enough?