Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Chai]

Agree, but it shouldn't be to nerf to Coup de Grace (except maybe the interaction with Improved Precise shot...). Assassins should just get something better. Bottom line is, single-target insta-kill isn't really that powerful, even when it almost never fails.

What I suggest:
Assassinate can work without sneak attack, and works as current in this case.
With sneak attack, Assassinate grants no save (i.e., auto-success, barring immunities), and has its cooldown reduced based on what the DC would be (something like, every 25DC beyond 10DC halves cooldown)

If you guys think 5 levels of bard is powerful, this would usher in the new era of 15 paladin 5 rogue.

With all the easily farmed FOM items nowdays, sleet storm scrolls would turn anyone with 5 rogue levels into godmode.

[dualscissors]

it's looking more and more like if you want a melee insta-kill on a 'rogue' you should splash 5 Bard level and swashbuckle.

More DPS, better instakills, still be a trapper, and have a few spells to boot.

Better by every measurable metric, which is insanely stupid. It just shouldn't be like this.

Not that there is any evidence that either Coup is being massively nerfed or that Assassinate is getting a Coup-esque DC power boost...but "better by every measurable metric" is overstating it. It might be enough to say that Coup's DC is absurd, obtained with minimal effort, and that it doesn't have the stealth prerequisite.

Being able to reliably kill 2 adjacent targets (due to TWF) without preparing them instead of 1 target with prep goes to Assassinate. Also when soloing a tough quest, being able to pick off targets and remain stealthed so I don't get ganged up on by the other half dozen mobs in the room I'd also consider situationally useful vs. having to take them all on at once in the open. Of course this point is murky since a bard has CC options if mobs all b-line for you.

[LightBear]

The playstyle doesn't lend itself to fast

Sev~

Assassins just don't lend them selfs to be fast at anything.
If you want to make assassins be assassins then here's a thought.
Let their sneaks only be broken if they roll a "X-Rogue level" where X is the roll of the natural d20 to hit.
So at one rogue level it won't break on a natural 20 but will break on a 1 to 19.
At twenty rogue levels it will never break.

You can play around with the "X-Rogue level" to make it fit how you folks feel fit.

Another option is for the timer on assassinate be lowered by each rogue level you take.

Another option is to let the number of foes be able to be killed by a single assassinate attempt be raised for each rogue level you have.

Give em pass without trace as long as they're sneaking.

Give them greater visibility when they do a shadow walk, give something so a successful assassinate from this shadow walk doesn't break this shadow walk.

Edit:
Double post from another thread but felt it belongs here.

Ps: I doubt this will be done as it requires some serious rework.
Pss: That assassin's trick is a step in the right direction, hope it's a passive.

[Full_Bleed]

So with those adjustments int and the assassinate DC become:

int68: 18base, 3tome, 7levels, 1human, 2capstone, 2assassin, 4harper, 11item, 1exc, 2ship, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

And the assassinate DC:

10 base
20 rogue levels
6 stealthy (shadowdancer tier 1)
2 Epic Muffled Veneer
24 int58
5 measure the foe
67 TOTAL

I can tell you from experience that a 67 DC will be 100% effective in everything but EE Stormhorns and will even be effective against lower fort targets (i.e. casters) in Stormhorns. It's 1 single quest chain that requires uber optimization. The hardest content should require more effort put into your character to perform well, especially on a DC based build. There's no reason to add more DCs just for 1 quest chain.

First, I appreciate you taking the time to be more realistic in your approach. I think you were fair in taking a lot of that gear out of the equation. But I want to point out one flaw in what you're trying to say:

7levels, 1human, 2assassin, 4harper, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

You think under-geared players want, or should, make that kind of stat investment to get to a 67 DC?

The point wasn't that "normal" geared people can't do that, it's that they don't want to do that (and don't do that) because they give up a whole lot of goodies to increase the DC of ONE ability (core ability or not) and they don't have the gear to make up for it. To what? Get a DC that utterly fails in top content or isn't all that reliable? And that will surely fail in ToEE and beyond. No thank you. Spending all those points on max stats makes the class gimp unless you've got the gear to make up for it.

Sev has stated that they will be increasing the DC through items, so we can expect the DC to rise as the level cap does.

We can't--and shouldn't--count on this. We've got greensteel deconstruction in the game, too, right?

And as my numbers above show, asking for a DC increase at all is unnecessary.

I see just the opposite. I think you proved *my* point. That it costs a "normal" rogue too much to get a pretty low DC. They give up a lot of stuff for it, and they probably don't have the gear to justify it. They're not playing the game in a vaccuum. They are playing it with "normal" Bards, Pally's, Sorcs, and Barbs (and future upgraded classes, etc). Having to invest so many enhancements points, a twist, and epic destiny points into their prime stat to get a mediocre assassination DC isn't cool. It's boring. It's not a sign of a well-balanced class it's a sign of an unbalanced class.

Assassinate isn't THAT powerful, and frankly, I don't think most should invest what you suggest to get that INT with "normal" gear. I think it would be a bad investment. Assassinate is a flavor ability. Something that makes the class fun. It doesn't break the game.


Actually, if they don't want to increase the DC's, I'd' be happy if they threw assassins a bone by doing what they do for Monk's Quivering Palm. Give Assassins a bonus on their next attempt if they fail. I'll take that, too, over just ignoring the ability in certain content.

[dualscissors]

First, I appreciate you taking the time to be more realistic in your approach. I think you were fair in taking a lot of that gear out of the equation. But I want to point out one flaw in what you're trying to say:

7levels, 1human, 2assassin, 4harper, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

You think under-geared players want, or should, make that kind of stat investment to get to a 67 DC?

The point wasn't that "normal" geared people can't do that, it's that they don't want to do that (and don't do that) because they give up a whole lot of goodies to increase the DC of ONE ability (core ability or not) and they don't have the gear to make up for it. To what? Get a DC that utterly fails in top content or isn't all that reliable? And that will surely fail in ToEE and beyond. No thank you. Spending all those points on max stats makes the class gimp unless you've got the gear to make up for it.

Since the Harper pass of Int to hit and damage, the "tax" for the investment to Int doesn't have as strong of a downside. Each point to Int synergizes well in also bolstering DPS, Ref save, KtA, skills, as I'm sure you are aware.

Maxing level ups is standard on DC builds. The human enhancement comes at 3 APs. The Int ups in assassin don't take away from any other desired buys. 2 Int-ups in Harper is easy, 4 is perhaps pricey.

The ED points to Int is expensive; it's too bad 4 doesn't cut it. I can't morally support a twist slot for a +0.5 to mod (Cthru was just evening his model out). Going all out on Int would be a little rougher for your Con/Dex on a 28 or 32 pt. build, but I'm personally (speaking only for myself) comfortable with 28/32s not being as awesome for end game.

As for the gear, the +11 Int items are very doable even if you don't get them on your first few Orchard runs.

[changelingamuck]

Has anyone suggested making the Resist Poison and Snake Blood feats give bonuses to assassin tree poison DCs or maybe even stacking +1 to assassinate DC each?

I think it could be a good idea to make those unpopular feats a little more flavorful.

[CThruTheEgo]

I'll trade you your #3 for the level 18 assassin core "Lethality" being a more robust and level-18-worthy ability since 100 dmg on Vorpals is weak sauce on Elite mobs that have 1000s of HPs. :-)

I'll take that trade. Being more deadly at the cost of survivability is fair.

No-fail fort save in EE Horns in in the 80s . . . which I don't think is even possible?

The assassin in my sig has a 69 DC without measure the foe, 74 with full stacks. With 0-2 stacks of measure the foe (depending on how long it took me to get in position for an assassinate), I had an 80+% success rate with assassinate in EE Stormhorns. With full stacks of measure the foe, it was 100%. This was within the last couple of months.

[Monkey-Boy]

The assassin in my sig has a 69 DC without measure the foe, 74 with full stacks. With 0-2 stacks of measure the foe (depending on how long it took me to get in position for an assassinate), I had an 80+% success rate with assassinate in EE Stormhorns. With full stacks of measure the foe, it was 100%. This was within the last couple of months.

If you're talking about the orcs, I do not believe you.

[krimsonrane]

-Increase the natural 20 vorpal to improved vorpal at lvl 20 then sovereign vorpal status at lvl 24 and finally Reaper status at lvl 28 with a feat.
-Give a cleavelike non ED assassinate that can kill everything it hits. A 60 second cooldown would be fine.
-Take out the search delay and just show the traps and boxes to anyone able to see it. Search should only be for those who may not have enough skill and need to try several times.
-With fortification going through the roof give rogues a better way to overcome such high fortifications.
-Remove the sneak speed enhancments and just allow rogue classes of a minimum level to move at full speed in sneak mode.
Maybe in advancing stages by level ending with 100% at lvl 20
-Create more weapons, clothing and armor specifically for assassins. Not just one or two rare underwhelming items.
-Allow for social skills like bluff to be a set up for assassinate. You turn your back and your dead.
-Finally ramp up traps a lot more. Make then deadly, dangerous and significantly harder to bypass without a rogue type.

[Severlin]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

[krimsonrane]

I'll take that trade. Being more deadly at the cost of survivability is fair.



The assassin in my sig has a 69 DC without measure the foe, 74 with full stacks. With 0-2 stacks of measure the foe (depending on how long it took me to get in position for an assassinate), I had an 80+% success rate with assassinate in EE Stormhorns. With full stacks of measure the foe, it was 100%. This was within the last couple of months.

I can second this and i saw it recently. a 72 was not enough for no fail. this was after he spent months getting every elite item and tome bonus there is. Imagine when the cap is 30. What good is an assassin who "might" kill the wizard everyone is afraid of? A glass ceiling exists in the assassins dc.

[krimsonrane]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

yes. it is unquestionable that we need a bonus to DC's as a glass ceiling exists right now. But that is addressing the obvious.

if you can check out my suggestions above.

[redoubt]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

+1 at 18 and 20 would be okay.
+1 and +2 augments OR a +6 item somewhere.

That would be a total of +4 available from the pass as a whole. I think this would be acceptable as adding options and maybe some choice of running outside Shadow Dancer. Adding more than this would likely be too much.

[PermaBanned]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

This would be good. Also, have you guys considered adding Assassinate to the list of "Tactical Feats" so that Combat Mastery items and Fighter Past Lives could contribute as alternate sources? It seems that Assassinate is one of the most difficult DCs in the game to increase and the gear options are extremely few and far between...

[Coldin]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

I would be okay with this. Not that I really think the bonus is truly needed, but would be helpful for pure rogues. I recommend +2 for the 18 Core, and an additional +4 for the Capstone, if only to make the capstone more worthwhile for level 20 rogues.

[redoubt]

First, I appreciate you taking the time to be more realistic in your approach. I think you were fair in taking a lot of that gear out of the equation. But I want to point out one flaw in what you're trying to say:

7levels, 1human, 2assassin, 4harper, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

You think under-geared players want, or should, make that kind of stat investment to get to a 67 DC?

.

I don't know if under-geared players want that, but I think it should require that level of investment. Remember, this is the "endgame" that is always being discussed. To hit EE DCs you should require significant investment. I personally draw the line at anything mythic or store bought. I also agree that INT Yugo pots have a bad side effect on rogues, so I would generally not count them either.

I think CThru's modified list for DC is a pretty good one to use for balancing purposes.

You will note that Sev is asking about DC boosts as well.

[Severlin]

This would be good. Also, have you guys considered adding Assassinate to the list of "Tactical Feats" so that Combat Mastery items and Fighter Past Lives could contribute as alternate sources? It seems that Assassinate is one of the most difficult DCs in the game to increase and the gear options are extremely few and far between...

We thought about it, but having fighters add more to Assassinate than Rogue didn't feel right.

Sev~

[redoubt]

If you're talking about the orcs, I do not believe you.

Not good enough. He stated his data. He tested with an assassin and it shows a fort save.

Please post your test data to refute his.

[redoubt]

We thought about it, but having fighters add more to Assassinate than Rogue didn't feel right.

Sev~

You were a Rogue in a past life. You occasionally find yourself looking over your shoulder. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +2 to saves vs. traps and deal +1 damage when sneak attacking. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

Maybe add +1 assassinate DC per rogue past life?

Cleric does it for conjuration.
Sorc does it for evocation.

[CThruTheEgo]

I want to point out one flaw in what you're trying to say:

7levels, 1human, 2assassin, 4harper, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

You think under-geared players want, or should, make that kind of stat investment to get to a 67 DC?

Yes I do think that's how it should be because that's how a DC based build is built.

The point wasn't that "normal" geared people can't do that, it's that they don't want to do that (and don't do that) because they give up a whole lot of goodies to increase the DC of ONE ability (core ability or not) and they don't have the gear to make up for it. To what? Get a DC that utterly fails in top content or isn't all that reliable? And that will surely fail in ToEE and beyond. No thank you. Spending all those points on max stats makes the class gimp unless you've got the gear to make up for it.

It's called min/maxing, and it's how high end builds are able to do what they do best. And as dualscissors pointed out, there is now little cost in min/maxing on an int based assassin thanks to harper. There is excellent synergy in fact. Admittedly, however, there is a severe lack of variety.

I see just the opposite. I think you proved *my* point. That it costs a "normal" rogue too much to get a pretty low DC.

That "pretty low DC" works in 98% of the game with minimal investment. What more do you want?

They give up a lot of stuff for it, and they probably don't have the gear to justify it.

What exactly is given up? Again, look at what dualscissors pointed out. Quite a lot is gained in fact.

They're not playing the game in a vaccuum. They are playing it with "normal" Bards, Pally's, Sorcs, and Barbs (and future upgraded classes, etc).

Why should every class/build be turned into an easy button? That's exactly what you're asking for – an instakill that takes no effort to be 100% effective in the hardest content. You've got swashbuckler for that if that's what you're really looking for. Assassins require skill to build and play well. For those who want an easy button, they have plenty of options. Assassins are a unique playstyle which does not appeal to the majority of players and never will as long as they retain that playstyle. For those who enjoy that playstyle, they aren't looking for an easy button approach. It's good that we have this variety. Something for everyone.

Having to invest so many enhancements points, a twist, and epic destiny points into their prime stat to get a mediocre assassination DC isn't cool. It's boring. It's not a sign of a well-balanced class it's a sign of an unbalanced class.

Again, this is standard for a DC based build. Have you ever built a DC based build?