Rogue - Assassin Changes

[slarden]

I'm not posting here for rogue tips. I'm pointing out what I think should be obvious, but doesn't seem to be. Just because the best geared people in the game find the ceiling doesn't mean they should be setting the bar. How would you like it if the bar for evasion was set by the same minority of people?

I actually think the whole DEX to assassinate DC is a good illustrator. As has been noted by many it gets people to higher DC's more easily. The "solution" some have proposed is to free up some INT build AP's/feats so that they can compensate. Most in the INT crowd don't have a problem with the DEX option *if* INT gets some love and there is more parity down the line.

So, why is it ok to buff INT build DC's if there is a DEX build option... but not a good enough reason to do even if there isn't?

You, yourself seem to be "ok" with another +2 somewhere... which is 2 more than we're currently getting...

I'd take it. But, you must recognize, that's 2 more points that guys who have already nailed their target think you deserve.


The idea that this pass is supposed to improve assassins but not assassination doesn't make sense.

I can't speak for everyone there are many ideas on this thread.

I am not asking for a buff to int DC. I am also fine with dex being a little higher DC. I am more interested in parity on feats and action points which can be addressed in the Assassin core easily enough.

The difference between a maxed out assassin and a first life assassin with easy-to-get gear is 4 DC (completionist, littany, mythic instead of epic helm). There is very little content where that difference of 4 matters.

The difference between a maxed out player and first lifer overall is huge mainly because of accumulated past life PRR beneifts, dps benefits, hp benefits, defensive benefits, etc.

The DC wouldn't prevent me from playing an undergeared first life rogue. The defensive deficits would. A first life swashbuckler is fine. Same with paladin and barbarian. Rogue is more complicated to play and those extra benefits from gearing and past lifes help quite a bit, but still a maxed out rogue is lacking in some areas compared to a first life bard, paladin or barbarian. Such is our lot in life for choosing to sneak around in shadows. At least it is a very fun and challenging build to play and we can ALWAYS get the max trap bonus every quest

[slarden]

slarden has a good example there of a high DC without any of those things you were complaining were setting the DC threshold so high though I think sunelf kinda doesn't count since you would need a +1 heart of wood but Drow for sure.

Agreed on the heart - that was total laziness on my part - I wanted to start at 15 and was willing to buy a heart to do so vs. playing a drow. But the 2 mega-healing clickies were really nice before harper tree squeezed those out of my build. Drow and human are best options for an int-based assassin. Drow and halfling are the best options for a dex-based assassin.

[Fedora1]

The truth of course in REAL DDO is that almost no one uses Yugo pots

Agree. I've played since late 2009 and never used a yugo pot (or SF pot for that matter).

[CThruTheEgo]

Here is what a 68 INT looks like (using Hassan's build):

int68: 18base, 6tome, 7levels, 1human, 2capstone, 2assassin, 4harper, 11item, 3insight, 1exc, 2profane, 2yugo, 2ship, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

And the assassinate DC:

10 base
20 rogue levels
6 stealthy (shadowdancer tier 1)
4 Dark Diversion
29 int68
5 measure the foe
74 TOTAL


If you think that is typical or simply a matter of building for it then you will not understand the issue no matter how it is spelled out. The game would not break if he did not have to have a raid item, yugo pots, an int twist, +6 tome, and a +11 item... not to mention some of the other decisions he gladly makes because hes got the gear to make up for it.


I just find this notion that we can't buff the assassin's core ability during this pass ludicrous and I think there is a fair amount of distortion from top geared (and solo) players who do not reflect the majority.

Well then let's remove that distortion by toning these numbers down to what is easily obtainable by the majority. That will show us what DC the average player is capable of with minimal effort.

+6 int tome: yep, store bought only, no argument there. But +3 tomes are readily available in the game, so anyone interested in playing a DC based build in high end content should expect to have at least that.

Insightful int 3: The Intricate Field Optics are arguably one of the most difficult to obtain items in terms of randomness and time commitment of farming the quest, or patience of waiting and willingness to pay for it on the shard house. +3 insightful int is easily obtainable from Crystal Cove, but that's not around all the time. A +2 augment is feasible, but might have to be bought either from the store or shard house. So let's just assume none of these options are available and drop the insightful bonus altogether.

Yugo pots: Amrath can still be challenging at level, although much easier to get the favor at cap. But we'll just drop this anyway since it's often a point of contention among people.

Epic Litany: difficult to get for the average player, no argument there so let's drop it.

Dark Diversion or Mythic Muffled Veneer: both not easily obtainable by the average player. But the Epic Muffled Veneer is very easy to get. So let's assume that and drop 2 DCs.

+11 int is found on 2 items from Epic Necro IV, both of which can be obtained from the chain reward by running the chain on casual, so this should be expected. You can easily find +10 int on lootgen gear until you get a +11.

So with those adjustments int and the assassinate DC become:

int68: 18base, 3tome, 7levels, 1human, 2capstone, 2assassin, 4harper, 11item, 1exc, 2ship, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

And the assassinate DC:

10 base
20 rogue levels
6 stealthy (shadowdancer tier 1)
2 Epic Muffled Veneer
24 int58
5 measure the foe
67 TOTAL

I can tell you from experience that a 67 DC will be 100% effective in everything but EE Stormhorns and will even be effective against lower fort targets (i.e. casters) in Stormhorns. It's 1 single quest chain that requires uber optimization. The hardest content should require more effort put into your character to perform well, especially on a DC based build. There's no reason to add more DCs just for 1 quest chain.

Sev has stated that they will be increasing the DC through items, so we can expect the DC to rise as the level cap does. He has also stated that the dex change isn't going through and he was just looking for feedback, so all of this debate is pointless anyway. And as my numbers above show, asking for a DC increase at all is unnecessary.

[CThruTheEgo]

In an effort to get the thread back on track and steer the discussion away from the dex vs int debate that is no longer needed, I want to bring up a few changes that would improve the fun factor of assassin without increasing its power too much. I'll list them in order of importance (imo anyway).

1) Increase sneak speed: As stated previously, giving assassin at least 100% base movement speed does not increase their power in any way, but it does increase their compatibility with groups. Drop faster sneakingg altogether, or move it back to acrobat for other rogues to use, then add to each of the first five cores a 10% reduction in the sneak speed penalty, so by the level 18 core an assassin would have no penalty. I can't think of any reason why this shouldn't happen.

2) Measure the foe fade 1 stack every 6 seconds: Under the current proposal, it will simply be tedious to drop into sneak every 10 seconds to keep the buff up. Changing it to fade 1 stack every 6 seconds would still require dropping into sneak every so often to keep it up (more often if you want to keep it maxed), but would not require extreme micromanagement to get any benefit from it at all. Less micromanagement means more fun. I think this would also encourage being in sneak mode for more time overall, which certainly fits thematically.

3) Increase light armor mastery PRR to 5/10/15: While I appreciate the melee power debuff, I still think a slight increase in more consistent damage mitigation is necessary. An additional 9 PRR is not going to amount to much, but it will help assassins in the area that they most need it.

I can settle for not adding the PRR, but the first two will make a huge difference in enjoyment of the assassin playstyle. Thanks for staying engaged with the discussion Sev.

[Monkey-Boy]

Agree. I've played since late 2009 and never used a yugo pot (or SF pot for that matter).

Why?

[Monkey-Boy]

Yugo pots: Amrath can still be challenging at level, although much easier to get the favor at cap. But we'll just drop this anyway since it's often a point of contention among people.

"At level" for Elite Amrath is 21 - you've got to be kidding me.

[Monkey-Boy]

it's looking more and more like if you want a melee insta-kill on a 'rogue' you should splash 5 Bard level and swashbuckle.

More DPS, better instakills, still be a trapper, and have a few spells to boot.

Better by every measurable metric, which is insanely stupid. It just shouldn't be like this.

[CThruTheEgo]

"At level" for Elite Amrath is 21 - you've got to be kidding me.

I use Yugo pots all the time. It's easy to get the favor imo. But my post was specifically geared toward the "average" player, whatever that means. And for a more casual player with mediocre gear, no past lives, no good maxed destiny, and no one to run with, yes, even at level 21 they can be difficult, especially on an assassin. And since someone always seems to complain when you mention them, I just chose to drop them altogether to show that a solid DC can be reached even without them.

[Monkey-Boy]

I use Yugo pots all the time. It's easy to get the favor imo. But my post was specifically geared toward the "average" player, whatever that means. And for a more casual player without decent gear, past lives, a good maxed destiny, and no one to run with, yes, even at level 21 they can be difficult, especially on an assassin. And since someone always seems to complain when you mention them, I just chose to drop them altogether to show that a solid DC can be reached even without them.

People complaining about Yugo pots and thinking they are out of reach of the average player are delusional. Elite Amrath is on par with low-level EH quests.

Maybe when the cap was 20 I could understand this, but these quests got nerfed (I swear they did, not jut our power creep) when MoTU hit and aren't tough at all anymore.

With that said, the INT pots on a melee are questionable but you can make up for the fortification loss.

[CThruTheEgo]

it's looking more and more like if you want a melee insta-kill on a 'rogue' you should splash 5 Bard level and swashbuckle.

More DPS, better instakills, still be a trapper, and have a few spells to boot.

Better by every measurable metric, which is insanely stupid. It just shouldn't be like this.

No, you'd want 18 bard/2 rogue for all the bard goodies including a solid enchantment DC. Maybe even 15 bard/3 fighter/2 rogue for defender stance. Both make a much better instakilling melee, but I like that my assassin requires a little more skill and finesse to play effectively. It's good to have both options available.

[CThruTheEgo]

People complaining about Yugo pots and thinking they are out of reach of the average player are delusional. Elite Amrath is on par with low-level EH quests.

Maybe when the cap was 20 I could understand this, but these quests got nerfed (I swear they did, not jut our power creep) when MoTU hit and aren't tough at all anymore.

With that said, the INT pots on a melee are questionable but you can make up for the fortification loss.

Oh I agree. I'm just trying to point out the ease of obtaining an effective assassinate DC.

[Monkey-Boy]

Oh I agree. I'm just trying to point out the ease of obtaining an effective assassinate DC.

What do we consider an "effective" DC? Almost no-fail everywhere or almost no-fail taking EE Stormhorns out of the equation?

[CThruTheEgo]

What do we consider an "effective" DC? Almost no-fail everywhere or almost no-fail taking EE Stormhorns out of the equation?

EE Stormhorns is the only quest chain that requires max optimization. Excluding that, you can easily drop 5 DCs at least and still be 100% effective everywhere else. And it's even possible to reach 100% effectiveness in EE Stormhorns, but that does require the perfect setup, which I don't think is a bad thing personally.

[Fedora1]

Why?

Necro II/III quests and Shavrath quests are not my thing. Don't like them so I don't play them (well very occasionally but not often). If it ain't fun I don't bother and I can live without yugo/sf pots. I have a dex based dps shadar kai assassin at cap, which until the bard revamp was probably the easiest I ever made it to cap.

If there is a build that requires yugo/sf pots to be viable I simply don't bother. It's not that hard to find something else enjoyable and viable.

[dualscissors]

snip

1) Increase sneak speed: As stated previously, giving assassin at least 100% base movement speed does not increase their power in any way, but it does increase their compatibility with groups. Drop faster sneakingg altogether, or move it back to acrobat for other rogues to use, then add to each of the first five cores a 10% reduction in the sneak speed penalty, so by the level 18 core an assassin would have no penalty. I can't think of any reason why this shouldn't happen.

2) Measure the foe fade 1 stack every 6 seconds: Under the current proposal, it will simply be tedious to drop into sneak every 10 seconds to keep the buff up. Changing it to fade 1 stack every 6 seconds would still require dropping into sneak every so often to keep it up (more often if you want to keep it maxed), but would not require extreme micromanagement to get any benefit from it at all. Less micromanagement means more fun. I think this would also encourage being in sneak mode for more time overall, which certainly fits thematically.

3) Increase light armor mastery PRR to 5/10/15: While I appreciate the melee power debuff, I still think a slight increase in more consistent damage mitigation is necessary. An additional 9 PRR is not going to amount to much, but it will help assassins in the area that they most need it.

I can settle for not adding the PRR, but the first two will make a huge difference in enjoyment of the assassin playstyle. Thanks for staying engaged with the discussion Sev.

I'll trade you your #3 for the level 18 assassin core "Lethality" being a more robust and level-18-worthy ability since 100 dmg on Vorpals is weak sauce on Elite mobs that have 1000s of HPs. :-)

I'm glad to see you pushing your experience on points #1 and #2.

[Monkey-Boy]

EE Stormhorns is the only quest chain that requires max optimization. Excluding that, you can easily drop 5 DCs at least and still be 100% effective everywhere else. And it's even possible to reach 100% effectiveness in EE Stormhorns, but that does require the perfect setup, which I don't think is a bad thing personally.

No-fail fort save in EE Horns in in the 80s . . . which I don't think is even possible?

[slarden]

People complaining about Yugo pots and thinking they are out of reach of the average player are delusional. Elite Amrath is on par with low-level EH quests.

Maybe when the cap was 20 I could understand this, but these quests got nerfed (I swear they did, not jut our power creep) when MoTU hit and aren't tough at all anymore.

With that said, the INT pots on a melee are questionable but you can make up for the fortification loss.

Agreed, all you need is the pack really. I see favor runs all the time for Amarath. The real issue is whether the pot makes sense for a specific build. I use int pots + con pots on my wizard whenever I notice it close to being off timer. I get fort bonuses on both warforged and PMs so it makes sense.

I don't use int pots on my assassin because my fort isn't high enough, but I did use dex pots before the harper tree and will again if the proposed dex change happens to assassin.

These aren't out of reach, but I think the trade-off of a twist spot to be able to use int yugo pots is the real issue and the reason I won't use those.

[dualscissors]

wiki on fortification:

"If a CR 54 Sellsword Footpad attacks someone with 150% fortification, the Sellsword Footpad has a 4% chance to normally conduct a critical hit or sneak attack."

Thunderforged Armor (fort'n 130%) + Brace for Impace (+40 fort'n) = 170 fortification. This sures my character up for those CR 54 and higher mobs. Even with twisting Brace for Impact, I personally wouldn't want to drop -50% (170-50=120 fort'n) for a mere +1 DC boost with an Int yugo pot. Being signifcantly in the wheelhouse of being critted by EE mobs doesn't strike me as the place to be, esp. on a low PRR toon with mediocre self-healing options.

[dkyle]

it's looking more and more like if you want a melee insta-kill on a 'rogue' you should splash 5 Bard level and swashbuckle.

More DPS, better instakills, still be a trapper, and have a few spells to boot.

Better by every measurable metric, which is insanely stupid. It just shouldn't be like this.

Agree, but it shouldn't be to nerf to Coup de Grace (except maybe the interaction with Improved Precise shot...). Assassins should just get something better. Bottom line is, single-target insta-kill isn't really that powerful, even when it almost never fails.

What I suggest:
Assassinate can work without sneak attack, and works as current in this case.
With sneak attack, Assassinate grants no save (i.e., auto-success, barring immunities), and has its cooldown reduced based on what the DC would be (something like, every 25DC beyond 10DC halves cooldown)