Rogue - Assassin Changes

[jaggyjag]

Hi and welcome to our magical land!

You will see many wondrous things here, dragons, wizards, Demi-gods and Demons, battles across multiple worlds! You will even see clever folk who can make magic work like a machine call Artificers!

But there is no doubt that the most amazing and surprising aspect of our world that you will encounter is our brotherhood of Assassination!

Not for us, is the killer who stalks his target in stealth and silence, sneaking up to catch them unaware to deliver that fatal blow never seen coming.... OH NO! Not here, that is just not on!

No, no! not here! no because here our one touch Assassins sing! and dance! for there targets first! before killing them! heck they may even slap their target first or knock him over! only then when they are singing, dancing, slapping, slamming and making a all around spectacle of them selves will they reach out and kill their foe with one shot!! that's right, no stealth or sneaking, no surprise just a great show and a one touch kill!!! how great is that?

Bet you don't have anything like that in Greyhawk do you???

What's even better? well for another thing our "Assassins" don't have to shift between stances or any of that rubbish, they just run along and singing and slaying! what is even better is that they don't even have to prep their target! if someone else happens to trip or stun the foe our super duper musical "Assassins" can just kill them with one touch while running by!! how amaaaaaazing is that?

But wait! there's more! Not only can our musical "assassins" do that, they are also Killer snipers and superior to shadowdancers as well! how great is that?

Don't believe me? well look at this! if they come upon a prepped targets they can kill with one shot from range if they want to train that way! and guess what? if they line up a few mobs that they sang for previously they can kill multiple mobs instantly with one throw!! even 4 or 5 with planning! Show us some stupid old style Assassin from D&D that can do that right!? How cool!!

And the best part!!! all our singing Assassins have higher DC's then the boring old Assassins, much much higher!

See here in our world the Singing Assassins base their Assassination DC on a skill score, while the old fashion Assassins base theirs on level and attribute! which creates a incredibly lower DC number!! neat huh?

What is really great is that the Gods of our land here, the mighty mighty Turbine have decided to leave it that way even though they are changing the old Assassin tree, cool eh? They decided that only our Singing Assassins (Bards) will get a skill based DC, which can be elevated to DC scores so high that they are impossible for the attributes style of the non-singing assassin to achieve, twice as high in many cases! twice!!! how cool!

So even though some people prayed to the mighty Turbine to make it consistent and use a skill based DC for the non-singing assassins as well, nothing is going to change!!! yippee!!!!

So the land of DDO will still have the best Assassins in all the worlds, and they are called Bards!!

Our Superduper Singing Assassins will continue to dominate the instakill while still being able to heal, cast, buff, and use more UMD!!! how cool eh!!!

So the rest of those worlds can keep their boring silent sneaky assassins, who have to prep to do a kill shot that has a DC score that is only half of what our Singing Assassins can achieve. Because DDO land is the world of the Singing Assassins!! Bards!!

[FlaviusMaximus]

Rofl at the Coup is too good badsies. Show me how well your time is compared to dps classes, even with your no fail coup. Oh. Wait. What? It's slower than thf room clearers? Shocking!

So, in the most mob heavy quest your esteemed and deadly insta kill ability still puts you behind? Wow. Much OP. Such stronk.

He's right. With the armor changes, self healing, and class changes, it's all about DPS (aoe at that) since characters can stand in the middle of hordes of mobs and cleave, cleave, cleave things down. Coup is irrelevant in this discussion. As long as Assassinate can work and it still can hit two targets regularly, it's good. Maybe it needs a slight bump in DC, but it just doesn't matter if it can hit 80 or 100 as long as it works. The bottom line is that neither instakill ability is really that strong in today's game.

What I think is a big problem, is that rogues have to sit out sections of combat if they want to get their DCs up. Sneaking to charge up DCs is something that really doesn't work out when there are barbs and paladins sitting in the middle of the room cleaving everything to death while an Assassin potentially sits out five out of every fifteen seconds of combat. I'm surprised so many people in this thread are OK with that mechanic.

I do think the meta-gaming approach to DDO where one basically only plays a sorc or whichever record speed aoe dps class is currently dominant because all else is a "gimping" that can only lead to ridicule in one's own sad, insecure microcosm of a guild, is a good way to play oneself right out of the game, since creativity and options are completely removed, but one can't ignore that game mechanics have changed enough that complaints over something like coup are a bit silly.

snip

The thread in the general forum wasn't enough?

[slarden]

DEX as an option is balanced by making the Capstone +4 INT* with no DEX, it's that easy. And that is how close they are to already being a balanced option.

It's not that simple int assassins would end up one feat less due to insightful reflexes and the loss of 4 AP. Those are huge handicaps that need to be addressed.

If they address those 2 things in the capstone it will be balanced enough. There would be no reason to play an int assassin otherwise. They are effectively turning assassin into a dex build which is the wrong approach.

[jaggyjag]

Coup is irrelevant in this discussion.

That is so wrong on multiple levels, and I would appreciate if you would stop pretending to be obtuse about it.

Coup is Assassinate, with higher DC's, ranged options, much wider contitions, and much easier to achieve DC numbers.

If you want to stand in the middle and cleave mobs, fine. Go play a fighter type, this thread is about ASSASSINS.

The discussion on the mains is of a different nature than the discussion here, there many people were and continue to be unaware of the Assassin problems with the pass because they are not the rules-wonks we are in this thread. It can only help to have as many interested parties aware and involved when passes are involved. Sorry if you didn't figure that out.

[jaggyjag]

It's not that simple int assassins would end up one feat less due to insightful reflexes and the loss of 4 AP. Those are huge handicaps that need to be addressed.

If they address those 2 things in the capstone it will be balanced enough. There would be no reason to play an int assassin otherwise. They are effectively turning assassin into a dex build which is the wrong approach.

Exactly! thus far we are just looking at a dex built dps class not a Assassin. Ironically the real Dex built dps machine? Swashbuckler.

At this rate we will end up with cut rate swashbucklers for dps and Assassinate.

[redoubt]

You say only if you stay in SD like that's not what a tremendous number of assassins will do... Yes as I've already noted LD is also popular (already even with only INT) and would remain totally viable for INT based assassins. because of course they don't need Max DC in all content CURRENTLY, even with INT. This wont change with DEX as an option... A tremendous number of players will also have zero interest in scrolling Tensors to get 3 more Mod and tumbling every 12 seconds and having the equivalent to 78 STR for melee DPS, instead of having KtA and the quivelent to 95-100 STR for melee DPS.

When Divine Crusader was introduced I was on an INT based assassin that looked very much like CThru's Hassan. I jumped over to DC (still INT based) and found that in today's fast paced zerg style, that I was more effective and did better damage by staying in DC and just not bothering with assassinate at all (note: this was before INT to damage.)

If I could get a good assassinate DC without running in Shadow Dancer, I would move to DC or LD. So that is one. That said, two easy things to make the introduction of DEX to assassinate be an actual option builder:

1. INT to hit/damage in the assassin cores (same place as dex.)
2. Insightful reflexes in the cores. Could be at 18 or 20, I think.

Doing this would prevent either one from being so superior as to relegate the other to "flavor" only.

[Bobby88888]

That is so wrong on multiple levels, and I would appreciate if you would stop pretending to be obtuse about it.

Coup is Assassinate, with higher DC's, ranged options, much wider contitions, and much easier to achieve DC numbers.

If you want to stand in the middle and cleave mobs, fine. Go play a fighter type, this thread is about ASSASSINS.

The discussion on the mains is of a different nature than the discussion here, there many people were and continue to be unaware of the Assassin problems with the pass because they are not the rules-wonks we are in this thread. It can only help to have as many interested parties aware and involved when passes are involved. Sorry if you didn't figure that out.

Assassinate should be the best insta kill in the game but the DC is in a good spot right now. With investment you get it good, going coup path would ruins the ability.
So to make it best in the game it needs other ways of doing this besides making the DC irrelevant; such as ignoring DB, possibly a hide/ms bonus on MtF (you observe your enemies and how best to slip in and out unnoticed), etc. Adding ranged to it doesn't work with the ability and the DC boost is absurd, please stop going on about Coup DC and propose solutions that keep Assassinate DC relevant but also boost the versatility of the ability.
The innate protection of DB works for most things but the blade of a skilled Assassin can slip through even the chinks of the magical armour, but DW is a more powerful version of the spell and will stop the killing blow still.
That sort of thing, let Coup have its default auto success DC, but don't add more that just isn't healthy for the game and isn't much fun to play.

Thanks

[redoubt]

Lethality: Any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike (attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation) that you make will kill most living targets.

I don't know the exact mechanic on this, but if it mirrors normal vorpal, it needs to be improved. i.e. make it improved vorpal and scale the damage with 200-300 melee damage.

[redoubt]

With regard to Coup de Grace...

Add to the capstone an affect that does an assassinate on any sneak attack against a mob that qualifies for the same helpless effects as coup de grace does. Put the cool down at half that of coup de grace since assassins don't have the ways to create the state that a bard does and it is against the much lower assassinate DC (vs the very high perform skill).

[Full_Bleed]

What I think is a big problem, is that rogues have to sit out sections of combat if they want to get their DCs up. Sneaking to charge up DCs is something that really doesn't work out when there are barbs and paladins sitting in the middle of the room cleaving everything to death while an Assassin potentially sits out five out of every fifteen seconds of combat. I'm surprised so many people in this thread are OK with that mechanic.

We've got to get our DC boost somewhere and at least it is accessible. Complaining about how we get it always results in ubers telling us how the assassinate DC is in a "good" place.

So, no, for that kind of delay I'd like a bigger return but I just don't think anything will be done about it when the status-quo is constantly being reinforced by the best geared rogues in the game.

[Bobby88888]

We've got to get our DC boost somewhere and at least it is accessible. Complaining about how we get it always results in ubers telling us how the assassinate DC is in a "good" place.

So, no, for that kind of delay I'd like a bigger return but I just don't think anything will be done about it when the status-quo is constantly being reinforced by the best geared rogues in the game.

So you would prefer everyone can get a no fail DC with no work at all?

If you invest your DC to max and use measure the foe you can get 100% success rate, if you don't use measure you run the risk of failing on the harder stuff but on easier you can skip it. but now that measure provides much more than assassinate DC I would be trying to keep it up as much as possible even if I didn't need the DC.

So does saying that make me an uber with my 1st life rog assassin? and does expressing an opinion contrary to yours make me an uber?

You do get more return on the time spent sneaking. They halved the time you needed to sneak for it and added +4 MP, 2 dodge and 2 max dodge to MtF as well as the assassinate DC.

Ultimately you have to build the game around the top, or rather build the top around the game so that it isn't too easy. making it so with no work you can assassinate mobs EE breaks the game, it has nothing to do with uber or not or status-quo.

If you want to assassinate mid combat, due to what assassinate is it seems fair it is harder, ie the lower DC due to it relying on being unseen which is difficult mid combat.

[Full_Bleed]

So you would prefer everyone can get a no fail DC with no work at all?

Yeah. Because there is no middle ground between giving 100% coup to bards for nothing and having the namesake ability of assassins be more attainable after being required to jump through more hoops to use it. Its fun going into an EE adventure with my static group (usually with a sorc, pally, barb, and cleric) and not being able to assassinate reliably (and being the best geared and built of our group to boot). What I should do is tell them, "No, sorry, I can't use my core ability in there... lets do something else." Nevermind that we can do the adventures just fine, regardless, and being able to assassinate would not break a thing.

Here is what a 68 INT looks like (using Hassan's build):

int68: 18base, 6tome, 7levels, 1human, 2capstone, 2assassin, 4harper, 11item, 3insight, 1exc, 2profane, 2yugo, 2ship, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

And the assassinate DC:

10 base
20 rogue levels
6 stealthy (shadowdancer tier 1)
4 Dark Diversion
29 int68
5 measure the foe
74 TOTAL


If you think that is typical or simply a matter of building for it then you will not understand the issue no matter how it is spelled out. The game would not break if he did not have to have a raid item, yugo pots, an int twist, +6 tome, and a +11 item... not to mention some of the other decisions he gladly makes because hes got the gear to make up for it.


I just find this notion that we can't buff the assassin's core ability during this pass ludicrous and I think there is a fair amount of distortion from top geared (and solo) players who do not reflect the majority.

[Bobby88888]

Yeah. Because there is no middle ground between giving 100% coup to bards for nothing and having the namesake ability of assassins be more attainable after being required to jump through more hoops to use it. Its fun going into an EE adventure with my static group (usually with a sorc, pally, barb, and cleric) and not being able to assassinate reliably (and being the best geared and built of our group to boot). What I should do is tell them, "No, sorry, I can't use my core ability in there... lets do something else." Nevermind that we can do the adventures just fine, regardless, and being able to assassinate would not break a thing.

Here is what a 68 INT looks like (using Hassan's build):

int68: 18base, 6tome, 7levels, 1human, 2capstone, 2assassin, 4harper, 11item, 3insight, 1exc, 2profane, 2yugo, 2ship, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

And the assassinate DC:

10 base
20 rogue levels
6 stealthy (shadowdancer tier 1)
4 Dark Diversion
29 int68
5 measure the foe
74 TOTAL


If you think that is typical or simply a matter of building for it then you will not understand the issue no matter how it is spelled out. The game would not break if he did not have to have a raid item, yugo pots, an int twist, +6 tome, and a +11 item... not to mention some of the other decisions he gladly makes because hes got the gear to make up for it.


I just find this notion that we can't buff the assassin's core ability during this pass ludicrous and I think there is a fair amount of distortion from top geared (and solo) players who do not reflect the majority.

And the reason they are top geared etc is because they made the trade offs for it and invested into what was needed. That isn't to say there shouldn't be more lower leveled with lesser bonuses to Assassinate DC items but.
I can assassinate fairly reliably in EEs with a DC several below Hassan's 74 but the highest save mobs still presente an issue for me because I haven't invest all the way up yet, I am still working on it and I am fine with that. Sev already said that Coup is too much, while it doesn't look like they will be changing it any time soon at least they have seen that it was a bad way to go and won't be going there again.
So coup is better than assassinate, I agree there, I also agree assassinate should be better but you might as well remove the DC just like coup if you mess with it more than about +2. That is why I suggested things like letting assassinate bypass DB in the capstone. Assassins could then go for orange nameds in EH/EE and champions with DB.
Instead of asking for easy button on rogues give suggestions to improve assassinates versatility over all others so that it is the most desirable insta kill and at the top as a result of being the best not just DC.
Just because Assassinate is the core ability of the class does not mean you are entitled to have it work. It will work if you take the care to make it and that is how it should be. If they want to adjust the DC I think +1 or 2 wouldn't effect it too much and would help make room for some flexibility in AP other than that I can't see anywhere where the DC has any issues and even that isn't really an issue so much, Harper tree is the issue there but I am not going into that here or now.

I get that you are frustrated about your DC not being reliable but stick with it! invest in the right gear and work on it and you will see it working more and more, and that will give a sense of success rather than Coup which it is just all about trying to speed up your run on your 12/6/2 or whatever. If you take a look at Hassan's Assassin it has some good info there that you might be able to use to help out your own build, I took a look there and at Nokowi and picked up a little bit from both to help with my own build and it was really helpful.
If you want I am happy to try help you with your build specifically though I may not be the best person to ask but this thread isn't the place for it. (I hope you don't take this condescendingly I am really just trying to help)

That is why Rogue is so good, giving everyone that DC free really detracts from the PrE as a whole.

Best of luck Full_Bleed

[brzytki]

I don't know who you are, and I'm 100% sure my post wasn't directed at you.

You directed your post at people who said they'll be changing destiny to LD. I was the first person in this thread who provided a real comparison (with all breakdowns) of INT and DEX builds. If you haven't read my posts then your are far behind in this discussion. I'm tired of typing it for a fourth time because some people don't read other's posts.

I for one think it's a **** shame that Sev is going to make a design choice almost entirely because Tensors scrolls can be UMD'ed when to counter that all he would need to do would be put +4 INT into the capstone (like almost all the other new Capstones have) and delete the +2 Dex he is currently planning on putting in there.

It won't be enough. Feat, twist, 4+ APs behind.

Why Human as opposed to Morninglord?

Damage Boost for example. And you won't be spending many APs in racial tree anyway. Why Morninglord? And if Morninglord/Drow for INT one, then Halfling/Elf/Helf/Drow for DEX one. Same thing really.

You know how few Mobs even bypass 100% fort? Or 150%? Almost every character I have without trying has 150-200% The truth of course in REAL DDO is that almost no one uses Yugo pots, as evidenced by the complete lack of Amrath LFM it is therefore a real pain in the a** when game design is dictated by something few people actually bother with. Cue "well I use Yugo pots so everyone ese must be using them".

Give me a breakdown of your rogue easily having around 200% fort. Name specific items, please. Do you know that mobs with rogue levels can bypass fort up to their CR lvl? If every char you have without trying has 150-200 fort, go into EE quest with 110-120% fort and see how "few" mobs can bypass it.

So now you're spending 31 Points in T/A to get it, 3 AP in race for 1 DEX and have a whole 5AP left after 41AP in Assassin tree. So you're not getting KtA which means you're losing at least 7 base damage to get +1 DC for 12 seconds after you tumble... Is this the part where DEX would be OP?

I didn't say I would pick it. I only said it's not irrelevant for the discussion.

No one said it, but that hasn't stopped some of you (not necessarily you, the first two posts I've read of yours that I recall were today) from leaving it as an unstated assumption, implying that scrolling tensors constantly is like permanent +6 DEX, that comment is directed at those who are glossing over this, to them I say stop ignoring that it knocks you out of sneak and stop pretending you only ever play the same quest over and over so you can memorize exactly when you're going to need to hit your scroll fix right before you sneak. This is blatant Forum DDO, not even 2% of the player base is going to maintain such a clunky mechanic perfectly with Scroll/Stealth/MtF butting heads every time you don't remember to hit a scroll before you get to a fight, OR don't hit a scroll because you didn't know you were going to run out mid fight. And then also the slow down of sneak mode in there adding urgency to get to your target before the melee's kill everything.

You would be right if it lasted 10-20 seconds. But it lasts a little over a minute. And you don't really need Tenser's for every fight, it would put your DC even higher than INT one, so only for the highest save mobs.

Do you not agree that we are already down to DEX versus INT being a tradeoff?

No, if the Devs change only an assassinate formula, DEX will be a clear winner with very very few trade-offs, if any at all.

People who hate short buffs and/or the clunky drop you out of stealth mechanic (and they are many) will choose INT (and would chose it even if the capstone remains +2 +2) and people who love to juggle clickies will choose DEX... This is EXACTLY how they should design stuff. More skill ceiling, more choices, not less.

You are right here and i said it as well after Sev asked us if it'd be too good. Not everyone cares for minmaxing and they could stay with INT builds.

We've gone from:

"DEX is like triple the damage lel !!!!!!!!1111"

To even the opposition admitting:
"INT as a best DPS only if both stay in SD"

You say only if you stay in SD like that's not what a tremendous number of assassins will do... Yes as I've already noted LD is also popular (already even with only INT) and would remain totally viable for INT based assassins. because of course they don't need Max DC in all content CURRENTLY, even with INT. This wont change with DEX as an option... A tremendous number of players will also have zero interest in scrolling Tensors to get 3 more Mod and tumbling every 12 seconds and having the equivalent to 78 STR for melee DPS, instead of having KtA and the quivelent to 95-100 STR for melee DPS.

Come on, stop taking statements out of context. INT would be the best by only slight margin because it would have 5-7 MP more and 6-7 straight damage more vs No Mercy. And DEX will have better defences. If you choose to ignore a better option of going LD, than you'll stay in SD. I'm not a fan of converting everything to STR because it makes things more confusing. In your 78 STR vs 95-100 STR example you have a difference of 17-22 points in ability stat, that's 7-11 mod difference, that's 3-6 damage per hand with KtA. Not really that shiny if you look at it that way.

DEX as an option is balanced by making the Capstone +4 INT* with no DEX, it's that easy. And that is how close they are to already being a balanced option.

No, it's not that easy as was presented by a lot of other people, not only by me.

[FlaviusMaximus]

We've got to get our DC boost somewhere and at least it is accessible. Complaining about how we get it always results in ubers telling us how the assassinate DC is in a "good" place.

Yeah, rogues need that Assassinate boost but it doesn't have to be coming from sneaking for 5 seconds. It could just be a full time increase available at tier 5.

So, no, for that kind of delay I'd like a bigger return but I just don't think anything will be done about it when the status-quo is constantly being reinforced by the best geared rogues in the game.

Getting a Mythic Muffled Veneer may be a bit unrealistic considering mythic drop rates and how tough it is to PUG Ghosts on ee. That's why I'm glad they said they would offer items with larger Assassinate bonuses soon.

I don't know the exact mechanic on this, but if it mirrors normal vorpal, it needs to be improved. i.e. make it improved vorpal and scale the damage with 200-300 melee damage.

That's a really good point. The ability hasn't grown with the game. Doesn't do so much anymore. Needs to be at least Greater Vorpal. Trying to decide if Sovereign Vorpal would be too much or not.

[Bobby88888]

Lethality: Any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike (attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation) that you make will kill most living targets.

I don't know the exact mechanic on this, but if it mirrors normal vorpal, it needs to be improved. i.e. make it improved vorpal and scale the damage with 200-300 melee damage.

That's a really good point. The ability hasn't grown with the game. Doesn't do so much anymore. Needs to be at least Greater Vorpal. Trying to decide if Sovereign Vorpal would be too much or not.

The whole 'vorpal' ability seems a bit outdated to me but if upgrading the vorpal type is all they are willing to do here at least it is something. Most people these days can deal 3k damage fairly quickly so even on sovereign vorpal feels a bit weak but the 300 extra damage would be nice and somewhat similar to option 3. below except a little weaker damage wise but has the kill them outright bit on end. The problem is that this ability depreciates very quickly as you enter epics. Setting it at sovereign would give it some continued power into higher epics but would be far too powerful for the heroics, you get it at lvl 18 so that has to be considered. Keeping in mind DB/DW block vorpal so won't work if you can't assassinate them and orange nameds in EH and EE would be immune as well as many of champions.

On that note I would prefer something along the lines of letting SA damage be effected by critical multiplier:
1. Crits only: either use weapon multiplier for crits (x3 heroic+epic) or set as x2 or x3 static number.
2. Crits + vorpal: Either use weapon multiplier for both (x3/x3 heroic, x3/x4 epic [This is probably too much]) or x2/x3 static number.
3. Vorpal only: Weapon multiplier (x3 heroic, x4 epic) or a static number (x3 maybe)
~Letting helpless increase SA damage is another option that could be added in conjunction with either imporved vorpal or critting SA.

Keeps the vorpal/critical theme the ability already has but keeps it up with the times (especially if set based on multipliers rather than static) and also keeps in the theme of SA damage.

Or something entirely different.
What do you all think?

I think this and giving assassinate some more versatility (such as bypassing DB which is fairly powerful so something lesser might be better but can't think what) are the most important things still missing. (and more SA dice if you keep chucking them in mechanic, Assassin only gets 8 but mechanic can already get 4 or 5 depending on weapon and mechanic was the most powerful rogue before this)

[redoubt]

Lethality:

If some form of vorpal is not competitive, what if a confirmed 20 triggered an assassinate check? (Regardless of HP remaining.)

It might be fun to have several different ways to assassinate within the tree besides just the T5, must be in sneak, version...

[slarden]

We've got to get our DC boost somewhere and at least it is accessible. Complaining about how we get it always results in ubers telling us how the assassinate DC is in a "good" place.

So, no, for that kind of delay I'd like a bigger return but I just don't think anything will be done about it when the status-quo is constantly being reinforced by the best geared rogues in the game.

A first life drow/sun elf without raid gear, yugo pots, store pots, mythic items or any temporary consumables and with only a +2 insightful int item/augment could get a dc of 70. This is weak compared to a bard's coup, but better than a first life PM's DC that had the same limitations of gear.

This would require investing in 8 Int through enhancements +2 more for the capstone. 5 int in shadowdancer. Having a +11 int item, +2 insightful int item, +1 excep int augment, epic muffled veneer. With a level 24 epic treasure hunter's spyglass and 6 int from shadowdancer you can get a dc of 71. The assassinate dc is more about build than raid gear or past lifes. A 71 dc will work in EE just about anywhere except orcs and giants in stormhorns and a few other enemies in higher level EEs.

This limits your race and build options tremendously unless you get some of the other assassinate boosters, but it doesn't require being uber, past lifes or raid gear. Completionist, a mythic helm, littany adds 4 to your dc for 75. Yugo pots would add 1 more for 76 although I wouldn't use the int pots.

Past life benefits don't really help your dc much (1 total with completionist), but are absolutely beneficial in other ways.

I am not disagreeing with you, because in comparison to bard our dc looks bad. If you spec for assassinate you can get a workable dc without past lifes, raid gear or mythic items.

With a dex build that 71 easily becomes a 73 with shadow dodge and dex yugo pots. (halfing or drow)

[Full_Bleed]

If you take a look at Hassan's Assassin it has some good info there that you might be able to use to help out your own build, I took a look there and at Nokowi and picked up a little bit from both to help with my own build and it was really helpful.
If you want I am happy to try help you with your build specifically though I may not be the best person to ask but this thread isn't the place for it. (I hope you don't take this condescendingly I am really just trying to help)

I'm not posting here for rogue tips. I'm pointing out what I think should be obvious, but doesn't seem to be. Just because the best geared people in the game find the ceiling doesn't mean they should be setting the bar. How would you like it if the bar for evasion was set by the same minority of people?

I actually think the whole DEX to assassinate DC is a good illustrator. As has been noted by many it gets people to higher DC's more easily. The "solution" some have proposed is to free up some INT build AP's/feats so that they can compensate. Most in the INT crowd don't have a problem with the DEX option *if* INT gets some love and there is more parity down the line.

So, why is it ok to buff INT build DC's if there is a DEX build option... but not a good enough reason to do even if there isn't?

You, yourself seem to be "ok" with another +2 somewhere... which is 2 more than we're currently getting...

I'd take it. But, you must recognize, that's 2 more points that guys who have already nailed their target think you deserve.


The idea that this pass is supposed to improve assassins but not assassination doesn't make sense.

[Bobby88888]

I'm not posting here for rogue tips. I'm pointing out what I think should be obvious, but doesn't seem to be. Just because the best geared people in the game find the ceiling doesn't mean they should be setting the bar. How would you like it if the bar for evasion was set by the same minority of people?

I actually think the whole DEX to assassinate DC is a good illustrator. As has been noted by many it gets people to higher DC's more easily. The "solution" some have proposed is to free up some INT build AP's/feats so that they can compensate. Most in the INT crowd don't have a problem with the DEX option *if* INT gets some love and there is more parity down the line.

So, why is it ok to buff INT build DC's if there is a DEX build option... but not a good enough reason to do even if there isn't?

You, yourself seem to be "ok" with another +2 somewhere... which is 2 more than we're currently getting...

I'd take it. But, you must recognize, that's 2 more points that guys who have already nailed their target think you deserve.


The idea that this pass is supposed to improve assassins but not assassination doesn't make sense.

Baring pally cha to saves evasion builds evasion bars should be set at the higher points, nothing should work without investing in it imo. Like expecting to never get hit if you have 0 dodge and no blur/incorp, it just doesn't happen.

The Dex does get you higher DCs which is the problem, reducing the investment to be virtually meaningless, however since it can let less geared up assassins get their DC up was the source of my suggested formula that limited Dex to slightly lower but possibly easier to get there DC so you can take the easy route but it won't be as good as having worked for it.

"ok" with it in the sense of I think it would be good if Dex can get on the table too but it should be on par with Int, I said at most you would add 2 DCs in but I wouldn't recommend but clearly you haven't read all of this (there is a lot so I don't blame you but if you are making accusations from it you might want to). I am not keen about more Int but I was trying to find solutions to the problem to please as many people as possible which means no one will be 100% happy, hardly problem solving/compromising if you go others want this, I don't, nope. And no I don't think I deserve any 'free' int and I haven't yet hit the no fail DC. Infact most of my suggestions included no Int boosts and that is the ones I favoured and limited Dex via the formula to balance DCs or a 'horizontal' assassinate buff for Int (not ideal if only for 1 DC either btw) but again I was brainstorming ideas to try get Dex to work so I had to consider the alternatives even if I disagreed with the premise the idea was based on.
I don't want something for nothing but if Dex got added I don't want Int to become obsolete as a result. I also think freeing up the feat is the wrong way to go about it and only 1 AP is freed up (assuming you are going for all 4 harper int) with the other changes which is basically irrelevant and would probably go back into assassin.

Buffing Int builds more is good just not the DC, only reason I even suggested messing with DCs even slightly was to try balance in Dex but I am just not seeing it working and think Dex should be left out and DCs left alone unless a working model can be found.

slarden has a good example there of a high DC without any of those things you were complaining were setting the DC threshold so high though I think sunelf kinda doesn't count since you would need a +1 heart of wood but Drow for sure.

Underlined a very important line in your post. The pass should have versatility buffs to assassinate and I encourage everyone to try come up with some and maybe they will go in if we are lucky. Assassinate should be the best insta kill but DC isn't how you make it that in the current game, versatility of some type is.