Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Coldin]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

Personally, I like that Assassinate uses a different stat. It makes it more interesting for building rather than just "stack dexterity". With Assassinate having an Int based DC, some real choices have to be made when it comes to builds. Plus, there are a lot of ways to get more boosts to the Assassinate DC than before. I think it's in a decent place already.

[brzytki]

@CThru, in my post when I said "lower" I meant lower than my DEX build, not lower than old INT. And that's the whole point: if you change your build and try to keep up with the DPS of DEX based one, you'll end up with almost everything else on your build lower than on DEX one. And then you can ask yourself, why even go INT?

[bbqzor]

As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Its not too good. Its a couple of people saying "its slightly better, so everyone will change to it". Maybe. But there are a lot and I mean A LOT of people who dont play "the best" combination in this game. I dont really think thats a valid marker here. Its not like 20 dc better or something, the margin isnt all that.

Frankly I think its not only fine but healthy for the game. It doesnt make any overpowered builds. It will surely have some builds which are slightly better in things like assassinate DC, but they will lose in other areas like search/disable, KtA dps and tactics synergy, skill points, and so on. It will also open up more builds, with different multiclass options and future enhancement combinations. I mean look at the Mechanic tree that just went up. An int based assassin-mechanic cross is a lot better than a dex-based one. That sort of future-door-opening synergy is the exact reason why dex should go here. It gives people agency to build, without power creep. Thats what DDO character building should be all about.

Allowing int or dex is a good move. That some people "must" switch over for a few dc, fine. That some people are upset they will "have" to redo their int rog into dex, fine. This isnt the kind of thing that hurts or invalidates any character. It just gives us more options, and approximately the same power level, and allows more playable combinations with other parts of the game. All of that is pure win. The "too good" crowed is focused on a very tiny slice of that pie, and really only looking at a few points of assassinate dc. Thats not the whole picture. /2cents.

[Fedora1]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

Well it seems that making Assassinate DEX or INT (vs INT only) would certainly be somewhat better in many cases I don't know that it is "too good".

What about something like in the PDK tree where as long as CHA is higher than STR they can use half the CHA modifier toward combat feats like trip/stun - is there an easy way to do something along those lines for assassinate? Keep it based on INT, but if DEX is higher than INT they can use half their DEX modifier for assassinate? Would this would let a max dex build attain a decent DC? And getting all the other benefits of dex - at the same time an INT build would still have the best assassinate DC and be able to use the harper tree to make up for the lower dex. I still think Insightful Reflexes should be an auto grant in the cores, either 18 or 20. Hiding in Plain Sight should be tossed in as well.

*NOTE* I haven't done the numbers, if anyone else is good at that please see if that would be workable or not.

[slarden]

Its not too good. Its a couple of people saying "its slightly better, so everyone will change to it". Maybe. But there are a lot and I mean A LOT of people who dont play "the best" combination in this game. I dont really think thats a valid marker here. Its not like 20 dc better or something, the margin isnt all that.

Frankly I think its not only fine but healthy for the game. It doesnt make any overpowered builds. It will surely have some builds which are slightly better in things like assassinate DC, but they will lose in other areas like search/disable, KtA dps and tactics synergy, skill points, and so on. It will also open up more builds, with different multiclass options and future enhancement combinations. I mean look at the Mechanic tree that just went up. An int based assassin-mechanic cross is a lot better than a dex-based one. That sort of future-door-opening synergy is the exact reason why dex should go here. It gives people agency to build, without power creep. Thats what DDO character building should be all about.

Allowing int or dex is a good move. That some people "must" switch over for a few dc, fine. That some people are upset they will "have" to redo their int rog into dex, fine. This isnt the kind of thing that hurts or invalidates any character. It just gives us more options, and approximately the same power level, and allows more playable combinations with other parts of the game. All of that is pure win. The "too good" crowed is focused on a very tiny slice of that pie, and really only looking at a few points of assassinate dc. Thats not the whole picture. /2cents.

It gives a better option just another option. They need to give something for int builds if they allow dex builds to take assassinate.

[jaggyjag]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

Sev, a majority of Assassin players want a skill based DC. This is only fair in light of the bard's coup de grace. I made a post regarding it and sent a PM with it as well. Surely you can see this is the cleanest and fairest way forward on Assassinate can't you?

We have been researching this in and out of game in the guild, raids, pugs, for the past three weeks collecting data and comments and all that data shows that a skill based DC for Assassinate is the preferred way forward (89%). This included new and old players to the game. There was also a significant level of resentment that the primary role of Assassins had been negated and then give to anouther class.

I can only guess that will understand that this is the best and only way forward with Assassinate's DC and you are still asking questions regarding the DC from the public. So please take this as your Team's own, use a skill base DC and take care the Assassin players who have been waiting so long and deserve a fair shake.

I cannot imagine any possible reason that you would use this technique in light of the Coup De Grace being live, but if for some reason you are thinking that please have the courtesy to explain why? and why Assassin's will continue to be second fiddle in their own primary role?

[FuzzyDuck81]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

I think it'd be fair enough - highest of INT or DEX would be fine... DEX might be able to be raised higher, but then the INT based builds get the advantage of a pile more skillpoints & extra harper synergy, so it's pretty much a wash IMO.

[bbqzor]

They need to give something for int builds if they allow dex builds to take assassinate.

Nope. They dont. Int builds dont get any worse. Thats the wrong kind of thinking.

Look right now, using a combination of Int abilities is the best, so thats what people do. That doesnt mean "they have to add something for dex". And they havent yet.

But what the thread shows is they clearly should, rogues are into dex, the tree should support both. And so what if it makes a new "best"... its just not that much better. Certainly not enough to negate any and every int build. Certainly not enough for crazy power creep.

People are throwing away the future over a few tiny cases now. This isnt a game where the "now" ever stays steady for long. Thinking only in terms of now is a bad way to develop things, because youre always behind the times. Dex might look better now, but as time marches on and other trees get redone, hopefully destinies get a pass, etc no one is going to know how things wind up. Better to have options open, instead of leaving assassins shoehorned into only one combination, which makes them vulnerable to getting caught in all those other factors as they come up.

Again, go look at mechanic, remembering that its only the first draft. Theres some really good possibilities there for int assassins. That a dex one has no hope of utilizing well if even at all. Case in point, allowing both only broadens horizons, its not setting the sun on anyone.

Give assassins some choice. The top endgame combinations anyone has posted result in a little bit more defense, good. Rogues often have problems with that top end. The dps is largely the same, the assassinate dcs are very similar. So int gives you more skills, tactics, trap synergy, etc... dex gets you more defense. How is that bad for the game, or bad to have as a choice?

Its just not bad or overpowered. Dex being better at some things isnt the same as overpowered. And int being worse isnt the same as it being so worse its not playable. I hope it goes in.

[brzytki]

Sev, a majority of Assassin players want a skill based DC. This is only fair in light of the bard's coup de grace. I made a post regarding it and sent a PM with it as well. Surely you can see this is the cleanest and fairest way forward on Assassinate can't you?

We have been researching this in and out of game in the guild, raids, pugs, for the past three weeks collecting data and comments and all that data shows that a skill based DC for Assassinate is the preferred way forward (89%). This included new and old players to the game. There was also a significant level of resentment that the primary role of Assassins had been negated and then give to anouther class.

I can only guess that will understand that this is the best and only way forward with Assassinate's DC and you are still asking questions regarding the DC from the public. So please take this as your Team's own, use a skill base DC and take care the Assassin players who have been waiting so long and deserve a fair shake.

I cannot imagine any possible reason that you would use this technique in light of the Coup De Grace being live, but if for some reason you are thinking that please have the courtesy to explain why? and why Assassin's will continue to be second fiddle in their own primary role?

No, no easy buttons. If one ability is clearly OP, the solution shouldn't be making the same mistake again but nerfing the ability in question (preferably into oblivion lol) What skill would you have it use? Hide? MS? One of the social skills? A new one? The first two can be buffed to around 150 iirc, social skills use CHA so you'd get slightly worse DC with no investment (or maybe you want to play CHA based assassin?), a new skill specially for assassins is a bad idea (it would probably use your DEX or INT mod, so you could just add 25-30 DC to what you have on live).

[dualscissors]

Sev, a majority of Assassin players want a skill based DC. This is only fair in light of the bard's coup de grace. I made a post regarding it and sent a PM with it as well. Surely you can see this is the cleanest and fairest way forward on Assassinate can't you?

We have been researching this in and out of game in the guild, raids, pugs, for the past three weeks collecting data and comments and all that data shows that a skill based DC for Assassinate is the preferred way forward (89%). This included new and old players to the game. There was also a significant level of resentment that the primary role of Assassins had been negated and then give to anouther class.

I can only guess that will understand that this is the best and only way forward with Assassinate's DC and you are still asking questions regarding the DC from the public. So please take this as your Team's own, use a skill base DC and take care the Assassin players who have been waiting so long and deserve a fair shake.

I cannot imagine any possible reason that you would use this technique in light of the Coup De Grace being live, but if for some reason you are thinking that please have the courtesy to explain why? and why Assassin's will continue to be second fiddle in their own primary role?

Would you instead be okay with a recognition that Coup is horribly out of bounds (and is a stronger assassination tool than assassinate), and instead of breaking more things, be okay with the devs just reeling Coup way back?

I have to say personally that I wouldn't really feel any more enjoyment or achievement unleashing an absurd 92 DC on mobs than I would, say, wrestling and defeating my preschool nieces and nephews.

[slarden]

Of the other options I looked at, I didn't see OPness so much as just variability. With this combination however – shadow dodge, improved defensive roll, no mercy, and balanced attacks – I can see why the dex version is too powerful. That's rather unfortunate actually, because there is no diversity among int builds. There's really only one optimal version with a few tiny varations. But I see now that this build would be the dex version of that – one optimal dex version with a few tiny variations.

In my example I showed sneak attack damage to show how you can easily compensate for the loss of a few points from KTA. I was only using that because people downplayed no mercy which is one of the most powerful enhancements in the game.

I've been emphasizing No Mercy all along but not everyone appreciates how powerful it so I used SA in the example to just compare raw dps and dex still wins. It's not just balanced attacks, it's 2x thunderforged weapons with paralyzing and mortal fear + no mercy + sense weakness. It doesn't matter how many hp the enemies have they are going down fast.

I am fine if they allow dex builds to have assassinate but they need to do something for int builds to balance things.

[slarden]

Nope. They dont. Int builds dont get any worse. Thats the wrong kind of thinking.

Look right now, using a combination of Int abilities is the best, so thats what people do. That doesnt mean "they have to add something for dex". And they havent yet.

But what the thread shows is they clearly should, rogues are into dex, the tree should support both. And so what if it makes a new "best"... its just not that much better. Certainly not enough to negate any and every int build. Certainly not enough for crazy power creep.

People are throwing away the future over a few tiny cases now. This isnt a game where the "now" ever stays steady for long. Thinking only in terms of now is a bad way to develop things, because youre always behind the times. Dex might look better now, but as time marches on and other trees get redone, hopefully destinies get a pass, etc no one is going to know how things wind up. Better to have options open, instead of leaving assassins shoehorned into only one combination, which makes them vulnerable to getting caught in all those other factors as they come up.

Again, go look at mechanic, remembering that its only the first draft. Theres some really good possibilities there for int assassins. That a dex one has no hope of utilizing well if even at all. Case in point, allowing both only broadens horizons, its not setting the sun on anyone.

Give assassins some choice. The top endgame combinations anyone has posted result in a little bit more defense, good. Rogues often have problems with that top end. The dps is largely the same, the assassinate dcs are very similar. So int gives you more skills, tactics, trap synergy, etc... dex gets you more defense. How is that bad for the game, or bad to have as a choice?

Its just not bad or overpowered. Dex being better at some things isnt the same as overpowered. And int being worse isnt the same as it being so worse its not playable. I hope it goes in.

Giving a really good choice and a subpar choice doesn't make sense. They need to adjust for int builds to balance things out otherwise they should just pass and leave it as is.

[CThruTheEgo]

Sev, a majority of Assassin players want a skill based DC. This is only fair in light of the bard's coup de grace. I made a post regarding it and sent a PM with it as well. Surely you can see this is the cleanest and fairest way forward on Assassinate can't you?

We have been researching this in and out of game in the guild, raids, pugs, for the past three weeks collecting data and comments and all that data shows that a skill based DC for Assassinate is the preferred way forward (89%). This included new and old players to the game. There was also a significant level of resentment that the primary role of Assassins had been negated and then give to anouther class.

I can only guess that will understand that this is the best and only way forward with Assassinate's DC and you are still asking questions regarding the DC from the public. So please take this as your Team's own, use a skill base DC and take care the Assassin players who have been waiting so long and deserve a fair shake.

I cannot imagine any possible reason that you would use this technique in light of the Coup De Grace being live, but if for some reason you are thinking that please have the courtesy to explain why? and why Assassin's will continue to be second fiddle in their own primary role?

LOL! You sound like a politician giving a sales pitch.

Who is this "majority" that you've interviewed? Where is your "data?" How did you collect, record, and analyze it? Can you provide us with the raw data so that we can make our own judgements about the validity of it? LOL!

The majority of responses in this thread are against making assassinate DC skill based. A small minority have expressed a desire for this. This ship has already sailed anyway jaggyjag. Sev has said this isn't going to happen. Thanks for the laugh though.

[brzytki]

Giving a really good choice and a subpar choice doesn't make sense. They need to adjust for int builds to balance things out otherwise they should just pass and leave it as is.

The best solution to this would be a revamp of Shadowdancer. But for this we would have to wait a few months. Still, nothing bad would come out of it, if during those couple of month DEX would shine brighter than INT.

[bbqzor]

it's 2x thunderforged weapons with paralyzing and mortal fear + no mercy + sense weakness. It doesn't matter how many hp the enemies have they are going down fast

See this is my point. If youre using those weapons, you dont need a dex based no mercy assassin. The mobs are going to die fast regardless. Anyone with the time and energy to invest into getting 60 phlogs the normal way is going to see returns on their crafting in any case, and have sufficient time to make either base stat work. One combo, based on items which will (according to dev intent) eventually be replaced is a poor reason to limit a whole enhancement tree, especially when its comparing between going 400 mph, and 420 mph. Thats not really a game altering difference.

I am fine if they allow dex builds to have assassinate but they need to do something for int builds to balance things.

So youre fine if they add dex because why, exactly. Clearly its not overpowered, or you wouldnt be fine if it showed up in game. So you just want int to get free stuff as well?

Giving a really good choice and a subpar choice doesn't make sense. They need to adjust for int builds to balance things out otherwise they should just pass and leave it as is.

So if you cant get free stuff, they should throw away the option for everyone else?

Look Ill agree to just disagree. Dex will be better at some things, Int at others. Thats how ddo works. All the situations people are pointing out dex is better, are so high end, and either so marginal or with trade offs, I just dont see it.

Changing around to LD and stuff to get more defense ok fine. That doesnt account for no fast sneaking from SD core, no unbreakable invis selection, etc... those are all HUGE stealth tools lost. People focus on one little thing, assassinate dc, a few points of damage, etc. Those are the changes you see between ANY competing options in ddo. Thats normal. Thats exactly why dex assassin is precisely normal. Theres no huge game break here. Its just, oh look new comparisons, some of them dex is better... yes. Anytime you get new comparisons, some of them are better. Otherwise theyre not really bringing anything to the table. But theres a lot of trade offs too. Its just that no one has a thread showing how a fast sneaking rogue with invis that wont break can do cool stuff. But, they can, very much. Especially assassins. Theres just no number stat to show that so it gets lost with destiny shuffle.

Either sev/devs will do it or they wont. But the concern over it breaking something isnt really founded. Some people will gain a couple assassinate dc. Some people might gain a few dps. One or two combos might heavily favor dex. But there are a ton of int/SD perks as well, from tactics, to traps with new mechanic tree (people posting here even look at that? assassin+cc=nice), to skills (not everyone has skills of 100+ everywhere), etc. While the top top top end might go up a little, its not going up so much that everyone will reroll their paladins into assassins. So Im sure its fine. For the 99% its just going to be a better, more flexible game. And for the 1%, theyre going to be OP anyhow, and ask for killer DM, and using dex instead wont change that.

[CThruTheEgo]

In my example I showed sneak attack damage to show how you can easily compensate for the loss of a few points from KTA.

AP are the limiting factor here though. After working out enhancements for a dex build, there is some great synergy in a lot of places, but you can't take anywhere near all of it. Taking the sneak attacks from halfling or shadar-kai will mean sacrifices elsewhere, probably in acrobat which is where the greatest synergy is found. So this is one of those relatively well balanced, just another variation situations.

I was only using that because people downplayed no mercy which is one of the most powerful enhancements in the game.

I've been emphasizing No Mercy all along but not everyone appreciates how powerful it so I used SA in the example to just compare raw dps and dex still wins. It's not just balanced attacks, it's 2x thunderforged weapons with paralyzing and mortal fear + no mercy + sense weakness. It doesn't matter how many hp the enemies have they are going down fast.

This is where the real imbalance lies. The synergy is that dex builds have every reason to spend 20 points in acrobat to be able to acces improved defensive roll and no mercy. That reason is 4 stat points for 18 AP. Int based has none.

Although I will point out that weapon induced paralysis does not put mobs in a state of helplessness, so it really is all about balanced attacks coupled with no mercy. Mortal fear also has nothing to do with this and is just as available to int based assassins. I agree that with that combination mobs will go down fast, but that power is not entirely limited or related to being dex based.

[slarden]

See this is my point. If youre using those weapons, you dont need a dex based no mercy assassin. The mobs are going to die fast regardless. Anyone with the time and energy to invest into getting 60 phlogs the normal way is going to see returns on their crafting in any case, and have sufficient time to make either base stat work. One combo, based on items which will (according to dev intent) eventually be replaced is a poor reason to limit a whole enhancement tree, especially when its comparing between going 400 mph, and 420 mph. Thats not really a game altering difference.


So youre fine if they add dex because why, exactly. Clearly its not overpowered, or you wouldnt be fine if it showed up in game. So you just want int to get free stuff as well?


So if you cant get free stuff, they should throw away the option for everyone else?

Look Ill agree to just disagree. Dex will be better at some things, Int at others. Thats how ddo works. All the situations people are pointing out dex is better, are so high end, and either so marginal or with trade offs, I just dont see it.

Changing around to LD and stuff to get more defense ok fine. That doesnt account for no fast sneaking from SD core, no unbreakable invis selection, etc... those are all HUGE stealth tools lost. People focus on one little thing, assassinate dc, a few points of damage, etc. Those are the changes you see between ANY competing options in ddo. Thats normal. Thats exactly why dex assassin is precisely normal. Theres no huge game break here. Its just, oh look new comparisons, some of them dex is better... yes. Anytime you get new comparisons, some of them are better. Otherwise theyre not really bringing anything to the table. But theres a lot of trade offs too. Its just that no one has a thread showing how a fast sneaking rogue with invis that wont break can do cool stuff. But, they can, very much. Especially assassins. Theres just no number stat to show that so it gets lost with destiny shuffle.

Either sev/devs will do it or they wont. But the concern over it breaking something isnt really founded. Some people will gain a couple assassinate dc. Some people might gain a few dps. One or two combos might heavily favor dex. But there are a ton of int/SD perks as well, from tactics, to traps with new mechanic tree (people posting here even look at that? assassin+cc=nice), to skills (not everyone has skills of 100+ everywhere), etc. While the top top top end might go up a little, its not going up so much that everyone will reroll their paladins into assassins. So Im sure its fine. For the 99% its just going to be a better, more flexible game. And for the 1%, theyre going to be OP anyhow, and ask for killer DM, and using dex instead wont change that.

I don't think you understand what I am saying. I am saying if they add dex to assassinate I will 100% for certain go with a dex build. I am not saying I will be unhappy because my int build is not as good. There would be absolutely no reason to go with an int build.

It's not just an issue of trade-offs - dex is clearly better.

Quite frankly assassins have always been int builds. If they think assassin needs a buff they should buff the assassin tree directly and keep it int-based rather than proxy-buffing it by allowing dex which will add more powerful builds. As I've said before I am fine going with a dex build, but others that farmed for gear and have less time than I do will find that the optimized assassin they've worked on for so long is now obsolete because dex builds are better.

I think the devs need to be careful about that. Buffing the tree for int builds is easy
- auto grant insightful reflexes in the capstone so one build doesn't have a feat advantage over the other
- auto grant into-to-hit and int-to-damage in the assassin tree so int builds lose some of their AP disadvantage
- don't grant dex bonus in the capstone

[redoubt]

1. Add DEX to assassinate.

2. Add INT to hit/damage in assassin cores

3. Make a few optional traps / chests that require max stat to get.

4. Add insightful reflexes to the assassin capstone.

This will add options and not just change the ONE assassin build from INT to DEX. You could actually build either way.

[bbqzor]

I am saying if they add dex to assassinate I will 100% for certain go with a dex build.

Good for you?

There would be absolutely no reason to go with an int build.

For you. Not for everyone. Others might rather do int+traps, or int w/ tactics, or whatever combo. You are talking only about some 20 rog endgame dc focused build here. Thats not the entire tree, or the entire game. What about a rogue/arty multiclass... they might well prefer int. Even if dex was there. Or an assassin+mechanic with traps to split up mobs or cc mobs, allowing them more freedom in engaging single targets to assassinate. That would be nice, and not work with dex.

dex is clearly better

Without one build that does EVERYTHING better, by a margin thats large enough to be clearly tangible in play, then no. Its not.

Theres no single dex build that does assassinate, trap disarming, trap making/using, dps, stealth, survivability vs melee, permits ranged options and provides equal cross class access that int does.

Youre going to measure only one thing, you think dex is better for that thing. Fine, Im not saying dex doesnt have its ups. It also has its downs, even when looking at one tiny slice, like reduced skill points, trap dcs, etc. You think its worth the trade off fine, but it IS a tradeoff. That slice is not the totality of the tree, the possibilities, or the game. Dex doesnt outclass them all. Just agree to disagree... I cant say which one thing is most important to anyone, only that different things are important to everyone. You like dex, great. Take that improvement, because asking for int to get the same thing so you can just stay int and still wind up in the same place is circular.

[slarden]

AP are the limiting factor here though. After working out enhancements for a dex build, there is some great synergy in a lot of places, but you can't take anywhere near all of it. Taking the sneak attacks from halfling or shadar-kai will mean sacrifices elsewhere, probably in acrobat which is where the greatest synergy is found. So this is one of those relatively well balanced, just another variation situations.

This is where the real imbalance lies. The synergy is that dex builds have every reason to spend 20 points in acrobat to be able to acces improved defensive roll and no mercy. That reason is 4 stat points for 18 AP. Int based has none.

You have to look back at the chain. I stated no mercy is one of the reasons why dex builds would be better - but you and others downplayed how powerful it is.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5562215

I only used SA in my example for that reason - because it was downplayed and hard to measure the benefit. My plan was always to use no mercy since I have a mortal fear weapons and already use sense weakness and balanced attacks. If you have a mortal fear weapon no mercy is a no-brainer. I even mentioned that option in my example and that is the option I always planned to use.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5562538

I only have one mortal fear weapon and my tier 2 is dragon's edge and not paralyzing. Paralyzed enemies are taking extra damage from sense weakness at least on my Shiradi caster, but I don't have paralyzing on my tier 2 thunderforged weapon for my rogue so I don't know.