Rogue - Assassin Changes

[slarden]

It lasts 66 seconds.

Personally, I'll just have two sneak macros set up. One that macro's a tensor's cast right before going into sneak and one without. 99% of the time it'll be used before engagement and will cost the assassin about 1 second. Comparing it to scroll healing in combat is silly.

This is exactly my thought. If you are getting ready to engage enemies with high fort saves you are obviously going to take that extra 1 second to scroll tenser's before going into sneak.

I wouldn't contemplate running it all the time, but the situational assassinate + bab bonus is worth the 1 second casting time.

[slarden]

~Assassinate: DC is in a good spot. with lots of investment and some sacrifices you can get it really good. I think that investment should be rewarded more by letting it bypass dw/db and letting it work on orange named (I noticed that it stopped working for me so either I always roll bad now on Orange nameds or it doesn't apply to them anymore?)

Orange named are immune to death effects on EH and EE. I never understood deathward/deathblock stopping assassinate which isn't a magical attack. I thought it should only make them immune to magical death effects, but be careful what you ask for there because that might mean enemy rogues can assassinate players even with deathblock and deathward lol.

[Bobby88888]

It lasts 66 seconds.

We have enough hoops to jump through to play a good assassin as is... I know some of you guys think that everyone is running around with a 74 assassinate DC (not)... with this, there will be a newer benchmark that many of us aren't hitting and a new standard that the devs will build against. So, yeah, I'd take a passive bonus every day over having to play like this.

Ok good to know it lasts 66 seconds, never used it so just believed what I read.

I am not running with a 74 Assassinate DC personally. I could but I am ok with the odd failure to give me some other interesting things to play around with. I think this is good this way. You can get no fail if you really invest everything into it but for those who don't want to or havn't gotten all the bits and pieces together yet for it you can still get a good DC that works most of the time. Swapping to Dex to assassinate (same thing as adding it in the end) lets anyone and everyone get the no fail assassinate DC without the investment. Getting off your double assassinates is no longer an achievement but rather something that everyone expects. Especially if Tensers lasts for 66 seconds.

No one goes "yay I just Coup De Graced that mob" or QP etc. because it is easy to do, anyone can do it with little to no work or investment. That is what Dex to assassinate DC will do to the Rogue and I don't want to see that happen. Even if all the rest of the insta kills have become stock standard at least let Assassinate stay that one insta kill you have to work for. If people don't like that they can play a monk, or bard, etc and get their easy meaningless insta kills.

Sev you said your design goal was to make assassin fun to play. Well Dex to assassinate DC will do the exact opposite, the fun is in the investment and ultimately cumulating in the assassinate DC that you had to work for, not that you were just handed for free. Where is the fun in being given an ability that will always work without you having to even try?

[Bobby88888]

Orange named are immune to death effects on EH and EE. I never understood deathward/deathblock stopping assassinate which isn't a magical attack. I thought it should only make them immune to magical death effects, but be careful what you ask for there because that might mean enemy rogues can assassinate players even with deathblock and deathward lol.

I didn't think they could assassinate but bring it on
maybe only on EH and or EE but to add more challenge to those difficulties and make spot and listen more valued skills.

I am all for this. Scrap the Orange named immunity to (at least non magical) death effects and DB/DW stopping nonmagical death effects!!!!

[slarden]

How? Please enlighten me.

If you use tensor, you will get out of sneak, so, you will lose DC from measuring the foe.
So, Will you use tensor scroll 1st then sneak then wait for 5 sec & move to the mob then assassinate?
If you do that, the target might already be killed for most group situation.
Think why most rogues say 'scroll healing is not reliable source of healing on EE'. It's slow.
Don't forget tensor from scroll lasts for just 30 sec.

But, IMO, Dex builds doesn't offer much better DC & DPS than Int builds.
Just very similiar DC & DPS & save a feat. And most of all, it opens new build possibility

You can cast tensor's on yourself and then go into sneak. If you are facing an enemy with a high fort save you won't mind the 1 second to cast the scroll or the 5 seconds for everything to charge up. It charges up while you are moving so that is a complete non-issue.

Tensor's from scroll lasts over 1 minute, but you are really only using it situationally and 1 min is more than enough for this consumable buff.

If the concern is that dex builds aren't strong enough that should be addressed in the 2 trees that are dex-based rather than the 1 tree that is int-based. If the concern is assassin is too weak, we should buff the assassin tree directly rather than proxy-buffing it by making it another dex tree which adds strength.

[Ayseifn]

I'm anti dex for assassinate because this is band aid for the open wound that is dex based anything and will block adding more dex boosters to the game, especially for acrobats who really need it.


The days of dex being a really good stat are mostly gone, AC is worthless for the most part and especially so on a rogue because they don't get any bonuses to it at all. Reflex saves are still good but Armour Up eroded some of that in the general sense(heavy armoured wizards) but for int based rogues it's still just one heroic feat.

If dex was a really good idea for assassins because of DC abilities then we're back to worrying about stat inflation, stat inflation woes mean that mechs and acrobats wont get decent boosts to make more dex viable, it also means no generic boosters like con/str have will ever come to be and it'll be just like caster stats like cha/wis/int.

I'd love to see assassins be viable with something other than dagger/kukri and int but it seems really hard to disentangle that mess, it'd also be expensive and time consuming which seems to be something Turbine doesn't have the funds for these days unfortunately. The best fix I can think of with that as a given is make a TWF dex tree similar to what was done with Harper, keep it P2W if you want I'll buy it just so I can make a ranger or rogue that'd hopefully out DPS a TWFing barb and isn't tied down to daggers.

[Saekee]

I love dex builds but vote against a dex-based assassinate. It feels wrong. A high stealth score can be achieved with the right tools; a super-high Dex is not necessary.

For a non-assassinating dex-based assassin, see my Twilight blade build in my sig.

[brzytki]

Holy s**t guys, I've just finished my DEX build vs CThru's INT build and I have to say I didn't expect to gain so much power. True, compared to his build + completionist I'm losing 3 DC, but on every other build (read: no Yugo INT pot, no INT twist) I'd be only 1 DC behind while rocking sick DPS in LD. If you guys want I can post my build but it's gonna be 3 pictures of 3 sheets of A4 paper (since I still have only my smartphone and typing out a build is such a PITA).

[CThruTheEgo]

Holy s**t guys, I've just finished my DEX build vs CThru's INT build and I have to say I didn't expect to gain so much power. True, compared to his build + completionist I'm losing 3 DC, but on every other build (read: no Yugo INT pot, no INT twist) I'd be only 1 DC behind while rocking sick DPS in LD. If you guys want I can post my build but it's gonna be 3 pictures of 3 sheets of A4 paper (since I still have only my smartphone and typing out a build is such a PITA).

I'd be interested in those details, but I don't mind waiting until it's more convenient for you to post them.

[brzytki]

I'd be interested in those details, but I don't mind waiting until it's more convenient for you to post them.

Nah, I'll try to post it today, gonna upload it to some hosting site and give links to pictures. Just not right now because I've run out of time. I'm just interested in your Enhancements picks from the revamp on your build, cause let's face it you'll be probably spending around 46 APs in assassin's tree like me and because of it you'll have to cut some APs from racial, Harper or acrobat tree.

[dualscissors]

I echo a recurring sentiment in this thread that Dex for Assassinate is a good thing *(only) with regard to it being an option that creates more build diversity*.

But after mulling it over a while, I realistically don't see any way not to admit that Dex is considerably more pumpable than Int and by a substantial margin and obsoleting Int based assassins would be unfortunate.

Dex sources without equivalent Int sources:

*Shadow Dodge toggle for +3
*Yugo favor pots +2 (some can argue for Int Yugo pots but I think the fort'n penalty is awful)
*Tenser's scrolls +4

--
+9 stat superiority (or still +7 if you're not sold on the Yugo pot argument)

Yeah, the last two might not be something you keep up all the time, but they are convenient and dirt-cheap enough to pop on before Assassinating for a +3 DC boost in any content where the +3 DC upgrade is helpful. Drinking a pot and scrolling while running to the next melee is really really easy.

Let's be honest, a +9 stat increase for +4.5 DC boost is huge.

Sure you're Know the Angles and skill points might go down a bit by going the Dex route, but who really wouldn't trade a modest to moderate hit on those to boost the assassin's bread and butter DC by several points? Especially when that boost to DC makes it viable for Dex builds to splash a multiclass or go Legendary Dreadnought.




So how to keep the awesomeness of Dex as an option but move toward Int as the superior Assassinate stat...

1. What if the Assassin capstone acknowleged Int as the traditional route: +4 Int, +0 Dex?

If you want to avoid buying Insightful Reflexes (feat) and APs for Int/hit/dmg from Harper, then you have to struggle a little more to scrounge up Dex toward your assassinate AC. That's the trade off.

2. As for Shadow Dodge, it's low enough hanging fruit in Thief Acrobat for an assassin crossover at 10APs and grab a quick +3 to Dex. Ouch to Int based assassins! How many enhancements grant a +3 stat bonus as a tier-3? What if Shadow Dodge was moved to a tier-5 enhancement to prevent it from being used by assassins, while still offering it to true acrobats?


Otherwise, I don't see how Int can compete with Dex and would (sadly) recommend against more build options for the sake of balance.

[slarden]

Replace my existing insightful reflexes feat on a sun elf (was chosen before harper tree was available) with dragonmark of healing on a halfing.

From Racial Tree: 17
2x Saves from core
2x Dex from core
Jorasco dragonmark focus x1
Lesser dragonmark of healing
Guile from tier 2
Guile from tier 3
Greater dragonmark of healing
Guile from tier 4

From Assassin Tree: 42 - I am currently spending 42 and free up 6 AP. 6 AP spend TBD

From Thief-Acrobat Tree:
First core: 1
Speed boost: 3
Sly Flourish: 3
Subtletly: 3
Shadow Dodge: 3

From Harper Tree:
First core: 1
Harper Enchantment: 2
Traveller's Toughness: 2
Know the Angles: 3

I take 3 less stat bonus in tree vs. my int build but gain 1 from necklace and 2 from yugo pots giving me the exact same DC as a drow int build. Plus I have 2 extra dc available as a consumable from tenser's. If you don't want to use the necklace you can give up the last guile and replace it with dex in another tree.

I lose 4 damage from know the angles and gain 3 sneak attack dice. I lose daunting roar but the extra self-healing ultimately adds more utility. If I don't think I need the self healing I can lose the dragon mark and one guile and get more dex. If I am using paralyzers/mortal fear weapons (for folks that made their tier 3 a trash beater instead of a boss beater) I can give up the racial tree abilities and take no mercy to turn my mortal fear weapons into insta-killers.

Lots of options - all better than an int-build in my opinion. If they give dex builds assassinate they will need to buff int builds for balance reasons.

[slarden]

I echo a recurring sentiment in this thread that Dex for Assassinate is a good thing *(only) with regard to it being an option that creates more build diversity*.

But after mulling it over a while, I realistically don't see any way not to admit that Dex is considerably more pumpable than Int and by a substantial margin and obsoleting Int based assassins would be unfortunate.

Dex sources without equivalent Int sources:

*Shadow Dodge toggle for +3
*Yugo favor pots +2 (some can argue for Int Yugo pots but I think the fort'n penalty is awful)
*Tenser's scrolls +4

--
+9 stat superiority (or still +7 if you're not sold on the Yugo pot argument)

Yeah, the last two might not be something you keep up all the time, but they are convenient and dirt-cheap enough to pop on before Assassinating for a +3 DC boost in any content where the +3 DC upgrade is helpful. Drinking a pot and scrolling while running to the next melee is really really easy.

Let's be honest, a +9 stat increase for +4.5 DC boost is huge.

Sure you're Know the Angles and skill points might go down a bit by going the Dex route, but who really wouldn't trade a modest to moderate hit on those to boost the assassin's bread and better DC by several points?




So how to keep the awesomeness of Dex as an option but move toward Int as the superior Assassinate stat...

1. What if the Assassin capstone acknowleged Int as the traditional route: +4 Int, +0 Dex?

If you want to avoid buying Insightful Reflexes (feat) and APs for Int/hit/dmg from Harper, then you have to struggle a little more to scrounge up Dex toward your assassinate AC. That's the trade off.

2. As for Shadow Dodge, it's low enough hanging fruit in Thief Acrobat for an assassin crossover at 10APs and grab a quick +3 to Dex. Ouch to Int based assassins! How many enhancements grant a +3 stat bonus as a tier-3? What if Shadow Dodge was moved to a tier-5 enhancement to prevent it from being used by assassins, while still offering it to true acrobats?


Otherwise, I don't see how Int can compete with Dex and would (sadly) recommend against more build options for the sake of balance.

I agree four things are needed to balance int/dex builds if they want to give dex builds assassinate:
1) grant int to hit and int to damage in the assassin tree
2) the capstone should include +4 int and +0 dex instead of +2 int and +2 dex
3) the capstone should autogrant insightful reflexes
4) change executioner's strike in shadowdancer to use dex or int

[dualscissors]

I agree four things are needed to balance int/dex builds if they want to give dex builds assassinate:
1) grant int to hit and int to damage in the assassin tree
2) the capstone should include +4 int and +0 dex instead of +2 int and +2 dex
3) the capstone should autogrant insightful reflexes
4) change executioner's strike in shadowdancer to use dex or int

Good suggestions.

I guess I wonder how receptive the Dev team would be to adding a feat (Insightful Reflexes) to the capstone and add more changes to Exec. Strike.

As much as I may see your point with Int to hit/dmg, it would be a brassy move to largely gut the Harper tree's usefulness.

Any sympathy for Shadow Dodge being too low hanging in TA? It's a +3 bonus to Dex builds without an Int equivalent that is too easy to pick up at the 10AP threshold. That nearly makes up for the proposed +4 (which is currently just +2) Int bonus for capstone. And again, it's a T-3. ...Or maybe the toggle could be limited to holding a staff...?

[slarden]

Good suggestions.

I guess I wonder how receptive the Dev team would be to adding a feat (Insightful Reflexes) to the capstone and add more changes to Exec. Strike.

Any sympathy for Shadow Dodge being too low hanging in TA? That seems like a +3 bonus to Dex without an Int equivalent that is too easy to pick up at the 10AP threshold.

Until Silverleafon thanked Sev for listening to him and not increasing rogue sneak speed, I didn't fully appreciate that sev is being heavily influenced by just a few people that may or may not being playing rogue. I can't imagine anyone that seriously plays a rogue in group play not understanding why more sneak speed is a good thing so I think I know the answer to that. All pigs are equal but some pigs are more equal than other pigs. It depends on what the more equal pigs think. I was previously under the delusion that the council was used as a first pass and then full forum feedback was used to finalize and tweak.

I don't care about shadow dodge honestly if they do the other 4 things to even things out. We get 4 additional damage from know the angles as an int-based assassin so it kind of balances things that dex builds get cheaper dex which can be used for other dex goodness.

[brzytki]

Ok guys, let's take a look at the monster I've created and tell me honestly if you'd still pay INT build if you'd have a choice. Link http://imgur.com/a/WVAKj
The picture at the bottom is first, then middle one and top one.

[Fedora1]

I see a couple things beng talked about from different angles here.

On the one hand some people complain that the DC for assassinate sucks because Coup de Gras is better.
On the other hand, they don't want to make Assassinate use Dex or INT, because it would kill INT assassin builds.
On the other hand (er, foot?) right now an assassin that is built for assassinating is limited to INT builds.
On the last foot, a DEX assassin would have way too high a DC compared to INT assassins.
But assassinate DC is too low, well because Coup de Gras....

What about something like DC= 10 + Rogue Level + 1/2 Bluff skill?
I was thinking maybe MS or HS but then that goes right back to DEX based...

[brzytki]

I see a couple things beng talked about from different angles here.

On the one hand some people complain that the DC for assassinate sucks because Coup de Gras is better.
On the other hand, they don't want to make Assassinate use Dex or INT, because it would kill INT assassin builds.
On the other hand (er, foot?) right now an assassin that is built for assassinating is limited to INT builds.
On the last foot, a DEX assassin would have way too high a DC compared to INT assassins.
But assassinate DC is too low, well because Coup de Gras....

What about something like DC= 10 + Rogue Level + 1/2 Bluff skill?
I was thinking maybe MS or HS but then that goes right back to DEX based...

No one says assassinate DC sucks. If you build for it, you'll have a workable DC for the toughest content. Our gripe with CdG is that you can put absolutely minimal effort into raising your DC and you'll still have higher DC than assassins (lootgen perform +20? for 20 more DC from only 1 item).

Only changing the formula to include DEX will be the end of INT builds, they need to get some serious buffs if the Devs want variety between INT and DEX builds.

DEX assassin could get more DC than a max INT build, but with Measure stacking every 1 second, not 2 seconds, it's not a big deal cause for now you have close to 100% chance to assassinate with all stacks on a max INT build. They would settle for similar or slightly lower DC while having many more advantages over INT based ones.

[dualscissors]

I see a couple things beng talked about from different angles here.

On the one hand some people complain that the DC for assassinate sucks because Coup de Gras is better.
On the other hand, they don't want to make Assassinate use Dex or INT, because it would kill INT assassin builds.
On the other hand (er, foot?) right now an assassin that is built for assassinating is limited to INT builds.
On the last foot, a DEX assassin would have way too high a DC compared to INT assassins.
But assassinate DC is too low, well because Coup de Gras....

What about something like DC= 10 + Rogue Level + 1/2 Bluff skill?
I was thinking maybe MS or HS but then that goes right back to DEX based...

I think it is what it is with regard to Coup. My recollection in this thread is that Sev stated that Coup's skill ranks-based formula wasn't a terrific decision in retrospect. Wronging a right by committing further wrongs to DC abiliites (be it assassins or casters) isn't going to happen.

I think we just have to move on from this aspect of Swashbucklers - maybe someday it will be nerfed if it is too egregiously hurting the game.

[redoubt]

Good suggestions.

I guess I wonder how receptive the Dev team would be to adding a feat (Insightful Reflexes) to the capstone and add more changes to Exec. Strike.

As much as I may see your point with Int to hit/dmg, it would be a brassy move to largely gut the Harper tree's usefulness.

Any sympathy for Shadow Dodge being too low hanging in TA? It's a +3 bonus to Dex builds without an Int equivalent that is too easy to pick up at the 10AP threshold. That nearly makes up for the proposed +4 (which is currently just +2) Int bonus for capstone. And again, it's a T-3. ...Or maybe the toggle could be limited to holding a staff...?

INT to hit/damage was asked for by assassins. The devs gave us a new tree to buy instead of putting it in assassin in the first place.

Melee wizards can still get benefit from strategic combat in harper.