Rogue - Assassin Changes

[slarden]

There's only 2 races that offer sneak attack in the racial tree - halfling and shadar kai. I don't know much about shadar kai so I can't comment on them, but I'll be upset if halflings become the new optimal choice for assassin. I don't want to go back to halfling. They make me feel like I'm playing in giant world on mario brothers. And I still have nightmares about hezrou butt from that life...

Considering that assassin's have no viable or consistent way to induce helplessness, I wouldn't consider no mercy a big dps increase. It also requires 23 points in acrobat, so will eat up most of your extra points just like harper does now for int builds. I haven't followed all the proposed changes for acrobat, but I'd be surprised if there's 23 AP worth spending in there.

Halfling is looking really good for assassin to me with this change. There is enough points for no mercy, but I will most likely still use kta even as a dex-based assassin (the difference in damage is small) and go for more sneak attack in the halfling tree. Shadar-Kai is also a really interesting possibility since maxing out dex won't be as necessary to achieve a high assassinate dc with a dex build. Also I can now take epic reflexes or something else in place of insightful reflexes which is quite nice. It looks like I will be getting more than a small boost from this update after all.

I am sensing a Lam build is near so we may have a chance to try it out in the next 10 days.

[CThruTheEgo]

Will dex assasins spend less action on harper even if they take KtA? No, I dont think so at all.
Don't forget int assassins get +4 int from harper tree with KtA, some melee powers.
Because dex assasins will want to get more upper tier dex for that harper tree for more DC as like int assassins.
So, both int & dex assassins will have same AP used in harper tree.


More sneak attack & no mercy? How can you get those unless you dont take KtA & more dex from harper?

Dex builds can just save a feat, that's all. Int builds will have better DPS, skills.

Well that is one option. But dex is also available from either of the other two rogue trees, so they may decide to pick up dex from there along with some other benefits (e.g. wand and scroll mastery, shadow dodge, and improved traps from mechanic; movement speed, haste boost, and subtlety from acrobat).

[redoubt]

When was the last time you saw someone wait for traps? So the skills are a difference, but a minor one.

The feat is big.

I'd try to take points from harper not needed for hit/damage and get the modified cores from TA for higher maximum dodge. Not sure how far I would get, but I would try.

My rogue, before harper, only used the rogue trees and shadar-kai (was drow many lives before that as well) and still wanted more action points.

[draven1]

I'll be upset if halflings become the new optimal choice for assassin.

As you know, halflings are the best rogues in D&D history.
I don't know why halfling rogues are so gimp now.

Make halflings shiny again
There is no reason to have halfling as a race except flavor builds now.

Halflings & shadar-kai are designed for sneaky jobs, I don't understand why they aren't the best race for rogues now.
Because dex rogues are just gimp now.

[draven1]

Well that is one option. But dex is also available from either of the other two rogue trees,

It's just +2, not +4 like harper tree.
Harper tree also offer better enhancement like KtA, melee power, spell point, etc.

[slarden]

Will dex assasins spend less action on harper even if they take KtA? No, I dont think so at all.
Don't forget int assassins get +4 int from harper tree with KtA, some melee powers.
Because dex assassins will want to get more upper tier dex for that harper tree for more DC as like int assassins.
So, both int & dex assassins will have same AP used in harper tree.


More sneak attack & no mercy? How can you get those unless you dont take KtA & more dex from harper?

Dex builds can just save a feat, that's all. Int builds will have better DPS, skills.
Trap skills will shine for harder contents soon.

Absolutely you would spend less points. I would only spend 12 points for 2 dex + kta vs the 24 I spend now. There is no need to go to tier 3 since dex to damage is free already. I also gain a free feat slot.

That is the thing with the dex build. I can get 4 dex and some threat reduction from sly flourish for 7 pts from thief acrobat so there is no reason to spend 12 more points and get 2 more dex from the harper agent tree. Or I just spend 5 pts for 3 dx and sly flourish which is probably enough since dex yugo pots have no down side so I am 3 ahead vs. my int build already. I never used the int pots because fortification is too important to a rogue.

Do you fail on traps? I don't even when leveling with subpar gear. I am not even a little concerned about trapping skill issues. DPS will be better with a dex build definitely due to the freed up action points and alot of good options to use those points on. The only reason to play int would be for daunting roar for some cc, but it's just not compelling enough of a reason by itself.

[slarden]

As you know, halflings are the best rogues in D&D history.
I don't know why halfling rogues are so gimp now.

Make halflings shiny again
There is no reason to have halfling as a race except flavor builds now.

Halflings & shadar-kai is designed for sneaky jobs, I don't understand why they are the best race for rogues now.

Halflings are not flavor builds lol. Pure DPS rogues still go with a dex-based halfing or shadar-kai. We will see a narrowing of race selection due to dex being used for everything and freeing up AP for the racial tree.

[draven1]

Do you fail on traps? I don't even when leveling with subpar gear. I am not even a little concerned about trapping skill issues. DPS will be better with a dex build definitely due to the freed up action points and alot of good options to use those points on. The only reason to play int would be for daunting roar for some cc, but it's just not compelling enough of a reason by itself.

I don't think you can disable easily(no fail) on dex based trappers for higher EE quests like stormhorn, ToEE, Haunted halls.
I don't fail on traps, because I am int-based now, not dex based.

[slarden]

I don't think you can disable easily(no fail) on dex based trappers for higher EE quests like stormhorn, ToEE, Haunted halls.
I don't fail on traps, because I am int-based now, not dex based.

It's not going to make a difference one bit. Even if I fail on a 1-3 or something like that I won't be blowing up the box so at worst I use a few more thieves tools. If I am no-fail now and only losing a max of 7 it's not going to be a problem. It won't take me from no fail to blowing up trap boxes for sure. I suspect I will still be no-fail.

[draven1]

Halflings are not flavor builds lol. Pure DPS rogues still go with a dex-based halfing or shadar-kai. We will see a narrowing of race selection due to dex being used for everything and freeing up AP for the racial tree.

So, it's really strange.
It's hard to see that dex based halfling or shadar-kai assassins on my server(G-land).
I know the best rogues including myself in my server.
No one use dex for endgame assassins now.

How can you get better DPS on dex assassin now? From racial SA(1d6~3d6)?

How about KtA with melee power from harper? I think it will give far more better DPS than racial SA.
And it even gives raw DPS, not SA.

[slarden]

So, it's really strange.
It's hard to see that dex based halfling or shadar-kai assassins on my server(G-land). I know the best rogues including myself in my server.
No one uses dex for endgame assassins now.

How can you get better DPS on dex assassin now? From racial SA(1d6~3d6)?

How about KtA with melee power from harper? I think it will give far more better DPS than racial SA.

Have you not read the thief-acrobat official topic forum? Those are dex-based builds. So are mechanics. Assassin was the only int-based tree. LD is a good destiny for a dps-based rogue.

[draven1]

Have you not read the thief-acrobat official topic forum? Those are dex-based builds. So are mechanics. Assassin was the only int-based tree. LD is a good destiny for a dps-based rogue.

Am I at wrong thread? This is an assassin discussion, not acrobat, I think

And even many acrobats prefer STR to DEX, because there are many source that boost STR, not DEX.

Please show me how dex assassin can outDPS int based assasin now.


INT based assassins might have better synergy with mechanic enhancement.
As like DEX assassins might have better synergy with acrobat enhancement.
There is no reason to tie assassins to INT only.

Variety is the beauty of DDO.
Dex assassination might open up new viable build, NINJA ASSASSIN

ps> Is there any way to resize image with BB Code?
ps2> Why ninja spy tree doesn't get revamp, too? It seems NO ONE use that tree for main.

[slarden]

Am I at wrong thread? This is an assassin discussion, not acrobat, I think

And even many acrobats prefer STR than DEX, because there are many source that boost STR, not DEX.

Yeah but assassin is not the only rogue tree. There are plenty of dex-based rogue builds and they are not flavor builds as you claim. I don't know of any acrobats that use strength, but I am sure they exist. The acrobat tree doesn't preclude strength, but all the benefits in that tree are for dex.

[CThruTheEgo]

It's just +2, not +4 like harper tree.
Harper tree also offer better enhancement like KtA, melee power, spell point, etc.

12 AP in either acrobat or mechanic will get you the first dex available from each, along with the other stuff I mentioned in my previous post. Another 12 AP in harper will get you 2 dex. So for 36 AP across those three trees, you still end up with 4 dex, but more utility from the other rogue trees and less dps from loss of melee power and lower know the angles. That's just one option though. I'm just showing that they can still get the same number of stat bonuses from the class trees.

[CThruTheEgo]

Yeah but assassin is not the only rogue tree. There are plenty of dex-based rogue builds and they are not flavor builds as you claim.

I'm no mind reader, but given that we are in the assassin thread talking about dex based assassins, I would guess the comment about dex based rogues being flavor builds was just poorly worded and intended to mean dex based assassins. If that's the case, it's true - dex based assassins are just flavor builds currently, and they're not even very tasty.

[Bobby88888]

Dex based Assassins currently can get better DPS over Int based but they will never get a workable Assassinate DC, which is why you don't see Dex based Assassins since if you aren't Assassinating you might as well be a fighter or barbarian or pally etc and do infinitely more damage.

Letting Dex to Assassinate DC will completely kill Int builds since Dex can then get higher assassinate DCs coupled with higher dodge and other defences (eg defensive roll) and higher DPS.

What Assassins need is a focus on fixing the issue of the class not at creating more and imbalance the class further within itself.
~DPS (via SA): More needed. Crits/vorpals for SA damage and/or more scaling from MP whould do it.
~Defences are almost there now, but more PRR is needed. Make Light Armour Mastery give 5/10/15 and call it a day.
~Healing: I'm fine with it as is but really you have given everyone else good self heals built in and those should be rolled back IMO, not continued on or just dropping the ball on Rogues.
~TWF: You said you were looking into this earlier in thread I think which is great, assuming issue solved until proven otherwise.
~Assassinate: DC is in a good spot. with lots of investment and some sacrifices you can get it really good. I think that investment should be rewarded more by letting it bypass dw/db and letting it work on orange named (I noticed that it stopped working for me so either I always roll bad now on Orange nameds or it doesn't apply to them anymore?)

That is what Rogues need, not Dex to Assassinate DC which will destroy balance within the class and spell the total end of Int based builds.
Assassinate currently requires first a Dex DC (hide/ms) and then a Int DC (ability itself). This is good and together with dex reqs. for 2wf line means no good Assassin dumps Dex.

You let Assassins use Int to hit/damage with Harper tree and the response we are seeing to that here and now is Int is too powerful now so let us use Dex for our Assassinate DC. That is way more powerful than what Int got and than hopefully Int ever gets. If your looking at fixing the class stop here. If concerned with Dex to assassinate DC carry on reading.

I would personally free up a feat and about a dozen APs or more if this change goes through which lets me hit the Tier 4 stuff in acrobat or load up on the racial stuff and I would definately go Halfing for the 'OP'ness it would get in terms of DC, dmg and dodge.

DC comparisons: Ignoring things that both would typically have.
Int: Nada.
Dex: 2 base stats, ~2 enhancements, 4 tensers (no need for constant upkeep, hit when needed), 1 item (easy to slot the +4 exc, not so much for int), 0-2 ED, 2 Yugo Pot (I personally won't use for the pen on Int build but would on Dex, some might but I think most wouldn't) = 11-13 more dex with as much as 14 possible for +7 mod.

But none of that +7 is needed for assassinate to land so you can jump to say LD or crusader ED for much more Dmg and or heals. Still leaving +4 DC over Int (or 3 if you already use Yugo Int) making it less of a investment or letting you spend AP or whatever on other things. Not to mention the feat you get back.


Now tell me Dex to assassinate DC is nowhere near as good as int still since your damage would be low....
I mean really, it becomes so much more powerful than Int that I am struggling to see how you can even say Int would be better. KtA gives you what? 15 damage on a 70 int build vs about 8 on a dex build. You are saying 7 damage makes Int better than dex on a Temporary ability??? Even on a vorpal that isn't even 30 damage. VS going Dex based with higher DC, cleaves/momentum swing and Master's blitz with even more multipliers and action boosts.

No comparison, not even in the same league. Dex wins every time by a huge margin and Int builds are gone for good.

In my mind the Assassin is a cunning foe, the most intelligent enemy you could face who combines his cunning with manoeuvrability to devastating effect. Letting Dex to Assassinate means hes just some guy who can run up walls and roll at you without a single thought about anything.

[draven1]

Dex based Assassins currently can get better DPS over Int based...

How? Please enlighten me.

Dex: 2 base stats, ~2 enhancements, 4 tensers (no need for constant upkeep, hit when needed), 1 item (easy to slot the +4 exc, not so much for int), 0-2 ED, 2 Yugo Pot (I personally won't use for the pen on Int build but would on Dex, some might but I think most wouldn't) = 11-13 more dex with as much as 14 possible for +7 mod.

If you use tensor, you will get out of sneak, so, you will lose DC from measuring the foe.
So, Will you use tensor scroll 1st then sneak then wait for 5 sec & move to the mob then assassinate?
If you do that, the target might already be killed for most group situation.
Think why most rogues say 'scroll healing is not reliable source of healing on EE'. It's slow.
Don't forget tensor from scroll lasts for just 30 sec.

The +4 dex gear's slot is a necklace. But, one of the most desired +4 assassinate DC gear has also that slot.
I don't know how you can say it's easy to slot.
If you mention a mythic veneer, there is a mythic armor that gives also +4 int.

I think most anti-dex assassin guys just don't want to change their assassin's gear & style.
If dex gives you more DC & DPS as anti-dex guys say, why don't you adapt new style?
I saw many posts that wanted more DC & DPS, here's some help.

But, IMO, Dex builds doesn't offer much better DC & DPS than Int builds.
Just very similiar DC & DPS & save a feat. And most of all, it opens new build possibility

[Bobby88888]

How? Please enlighten me.



If you use tensor, you will get out of sneak, so, you will lose DC from measuring the foe.
So, Will you use tensor scroll 1st then sneak then wait for 5 sec & move to the mob then assassinate?
If you do that, the target might already be killed for most group situation.
Think why most rogues say 'scroll healing is not reliable source of healing on EE'. It's slow.
Don't forget tensor from scroll lasts for just 30 sec.

The +4 dex gear's slot is a necklace. But, one of the most desired +4 assassinate DC gear has also that slot.
I don't know how you can say it's easy to slot.
If you mention a mythic veneer, there is a mythic armor that gives also +4 int.

I think most anti-dex assassin guys just don't want to change their assassin's gear & style.
If dex gives you more DC & DPS as anti-dex guys say, why don't you adapt new style?
I saw many posts that wanted more DC & DPS, here's some help.

If you read my post I explained the DPS point.

Tensers isn't needed as I already outlined but if you want the extra DCs yes you can scroll it and measure or just scroll and go for the higher DC mobs only, as I already said. Its a situational bonus only if you need/want it. Some people might never use it but I know some Rogues who pop it at the start of most battles on live just for the BAB and con bonus so the DC boost is just icing.

Neck slot only gives me +60 hamp right now. would I miss it? Sure. Is it needed? No. Mythic Veneer is a viable alternative but it is only 1 dex different and frees up more AP if you don't slot it giving you more of other things. Tale your pick. As for the +4 int armour. It represents a DPS loss among other things and not something I would recommend using, whilst I would recommend using the +4 dex one if they changed the DC formula. Gearing is all about trade offs, but the dex +4 necklace is a no brainer as is not using the int +4 armour. In the end but it is only 1 DC different and you get quite a lot more DC that 1 less is insignificant if you don't want to regear for the new dex assassin being king.

Changing the gear is easy, I have everything I would want to put on already in my bank or inv, none of it is difficult to obtain. As to changing playstyle? Making Rogues rather easy play and removing the challenge and fun that is why I love the class is a fairly big change that I am not OK with and that I strongly oppose.
As for DCs I am opposed to a DC increase myself since I don't want it to be easy to get that awesome DC, It should require a lot to get the perfect DC, anyone can get into the useable DC area with a little effort but into the no fail DC requires a lot more. I am, however, especially opposed to making the highest DPS, survivability and DCs for dex builds. DPS can be increased through other means that is accessible to everyone and really that is all assassins need. If you allow dex for assassinate DC Int would become an absolutely terrible build choice for all the reasons I outlined in my previous post.

Even if you don't use the +4 dex necklace and tensers you can go into LD or crusader ED for massive damage boosts whilst still getting a better DC than Int based. And if you really skip out on Dex bonuses at worst you will be breaking even in DC but you have a lot more AP to spend on other bonuses to defences or dmg or utility.

To top it all off it kills the flavour of the class. Assassins ARE cunning. They have to be to do what they do, just because you can do 5 backflips in a row or something silly like that doesn't mean you have the know how and intellect to plan and execute an assassination. If Dex to assassinate DC gets added you could safely roll up a base 8 int assassin with no major downside.
On live for an Assassin it is a good idea to also raise Dex, there is the thresholds for 2wf feats and the Epic SA feat, it adds to hide and move silently which constitutes the 2nd half of the assassinate DC and gives more AC and open lock (not overly relevant but). The DC formula already includes Dex via hide and ms vs listen and spot to close in and kill and then to get away safely afterwards. Really I think this is all the role that Dex should play in the DC. Letting all of it be Dex based just makes it too easy to get both way up into the never ever fail any of it area.
Dumping Int will mean I don't get to max jump, tumble, diplo, etc. but I don't even use half of them in the 1st place but. and that is the biggest downside, which is to say no downside.

Letting Dex apply to assassinate DC does provide an 'easy button' of a sort as you will only need to raise Dex and Con as stats so they can both be maxed out even on a 1st life toon. It lets you get Dex to hit, damage, reflexes, assassinate DC/hide and ms for free; all on one stat. It means you can use a non int based or even non Dex based ED and still get at least as good if not better assassinate DC which Sev already said they didn't want to boost the assassinate DC.


Yes I want to play an Int based Assassin because that is what an assassin is. Call me biased if you want, but it doesn't change the validity of my points. But if you rolled an Int assassin with that change you would be seriously handicapping your build.

It opens up about as many build possibilities as it destroys, and will open the floodgate for the rise of the Halflings!!!!!! :P Where is the old gust of wind SLA bug when you need it.....

I mean you would be silly not to go Halfling or maybe SK if the Dex goes through and fades Int into antiquity.

I don't want to see my favourite class in the game ruined so I feel strongly on this topic and respectfully but firmly disagree with you and the Dex camp.

[Full_Bleed]

If you use tensor, you will get out of sneak, so, you will lose DC from measuring the foe.
So, Will you use tensor scroll 1st then sneak then wait for 5 sec & move to the mob then assassinate?
If you do that, the target might already be killed for most group situation.
Think why most rogues say 'scroll healing is not reliable source of healing on EE'. It's slow.
Don't forget tensor from scroll lasts for just 30 sec.

It lasts 66 seconds.

Personally, I'll just have two sneak macros set up. One that macro's a tensor's cast right before going into sneak and one without. 99% of the time it'll be used before engagement and will cost the assassin about 1 second. Comparing it to scroll healing in combat is silly. I'll take the bonus if turbine wants to give it too us, but it's just an annoyance because it'll be another consumable to keep track off... and I'd much rather have it be passive. We have enough hoops to jump through to play a good assassin as is... I know some of you guys think that everyone is running around with a 74 assassinate DC (not)... with this, there will be a newer benchmark that many of us aren't hitting and a new standard that the devs will build against. So, yeah, I'd take a passive bonus every day over having to play like this.

I think most anti-dex assassin guys just don't want to change their assassin's gear & style.

At least you're admitting that people will need to change their "style" (i.e. nearly everything about their current INT builds) with this change (even if they don't *want* to).

[slarden]

I'm no mind reader, but given that we are in the assassin thread talking about dex based assassins, I would guess the comment about dex based rogues being flavor builds was just poorly worded and intended to mean dex based assassins. If that's the case, it's true - dex based assassins are just flavor builds currently, and they're not even very tasty.

Agreed. There is currently one int-based tree and 2 dex-based trees. What is being proposed is 3 dex-based trees and one of the trees also allows int. I just think when we are looking at rogue we should look at rogue as a whole and not just one tree in isolation.