Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Bobby88888]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

Sev~

No. There is no reason then to play an Int based assassin if Dex becomes an option for Assassinate DC. It is easier to get your Dex higher and it doesn't require the huge investment of AP into Harper for Int to hit/damage. Concerns about not enough skill points are also completely invalid, unless you then dump Int but in that case it is your choice.
This would kill off Int builds except for flavour, and Int makes the class more challenging and fun as opposed to Dex.

Though I think Dex could be applied to Shadow Dagger DC, it is a lacklustre enough ability, let it get more use from Dex builds too since that won't really effect the class overall.

[brzytki]

Absolutely. It's the same reason divine might is used.

Ok, I know it is. My only claim is that 700+ dmg crit in an all-stars-aligned situation is not because he is INT based, or rather it's not that big because of KtA. KtA added 5 dmg to his base assuming he had 30 INT. After all those multipliers, it added total 25-26 dmg. But if you add any other 5 dmg from other source in its place, the result would be the same. Because of multipliers, not because KtA is so good.

[Seikojin]

I think DC's should use full class levels instead of half. Most of the discussion and changes are solid outside of that IMO.

[Failedlegend]

A ranged build whipping out daggers and sneaking in for an assassinate? Yeah that would be terribl.. terrib... terri... terrific. That would be terrific!

A ranged assassin shouldn't need to do that they should be able to assassinate just fine with their bow, throwing weapon or X-Bow.


@Sev: I agree with IC that multi-classing an Assassin is nigh impossible right now and I too would like to see some leeway there

As for Assassinate being the higher of Dex or Int, I'd be down for that especially if/when you add a ranged Assassinate.

[redoubt]

It would moderate spike damage which is the biggest problem since i get more mitigation from fortification (50-75%) than I do with PRR.

Lets look at a 20 PRR debuff.

Going from 200 to 180 PRR is a loss of 2.4% mitigation
Going from 60 to 40 PRR is a loss of 9% mitigation

That's what I was referring too.

Could you explain you position please? I'm not understanding your mitigation from fortification concept.

Thanks.

[Full_Bleed]

No. There is no reason then to play an Int based assassin if Dex becomes an option for Assassinate DC. It is easier to get your Dex higher and it doesn't require the huge investment of AP into Harper for Int to hit/damage. Concerns about not enough skill points are also completely invalid, unless you then dump Int but in that case it is your choice.
This would kill off Int builds except for flavour, and Int makes the class more challenging and fun as opposed to Dex.

Though I think Dex could be applied to Shadow Dagger DC, it is a lacklustre enough ability, let it get more use from Dex builds too since that won't really effect the class overall.

I think this is true.

All we do with this change is swing the pendulum from INT assassins to DEX assassins. Once the *new* dex builds come out it'll be a no-brainer.

If we want to make DEX rogues a more relevant option (which I agree that they should be), then perhaps giving them more sneak-dice would be appropriate. Then people could choose to be better "insta killers" (INT) or higher raw DPS (DEX).

[brzytki]

Just to clarify, I'm not against using DEX for assassinate. I'm saying if you want to change it, you might as well change it to be DEX only, because DEX based assassin will be clearly superior, so there won't be much variety as some people claim there would be.

[slarden]

Lets look at a 20 PRR debuff.

Going from 200 to 180 PRR is a loss of 2.4% mitigation
Going from 60 to 40 PRR is a loss of 9% mitigation

That's what I was referring too.

Could you explain you position please? I'm not understanding your mitigation from fortification concept.

Thanks.

I am saying a 75% debuff to PRR so 200 would count as 50 and 60 would count as 15. But again this would be non-crit damage if people have fortification so the spikes would be nowhere near what they are with complete fort bypass which at a minimum doubles to quadruples the damages. It seems there are other multipliers because some damage seems higher than I would expect.

[redoubt]

I think this is true.

All we do with this change is swing the pendulum from INT assassins to DEX assassins. Once the *new* dex builds come out it'll be a no-brainer.

If we want to make DEX rogues a more relevant option (which I agree that they should be), then perhaps giving them more sneak-dice would be appropriate. Then people could choose to be better "insta killers" (INT) or higher raw DPS (DEX).

I had always though of assassins as INT based and acrobats as DEX based (but I don't play an acrobat.) Is this not the case?

[RTN]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

I think this risks creating powerful synergies too easily.

[redoubt]

I am saying a 75% debuff to PRR so 200 would count as 50 and 60 would count as 15. But again this would be non-crit damage if people have fortification so the spikes would be nowhere near what they are with complete fort bypass which at a minimum doubles to quadruples the damages. It seems there are other multipliers because some damage seems higher than I would expect.

I think I'm following you now:

1. Remove fort bypass buff
2. Replace it with a -75% PRR debuff

200-50 PRR is a 33% drop for high PRR
60-15 is a 24% drop for low PRR

Fortification still stands to stop critical hits.

[bbqzor]

Just to clarify, I'm not against using DEX for assassinate. I'm saying if you want to change it, you might as well change it to be DEX only, because DEX based assassin will be clearly superior, so there won't be much variety as some people claim there would be.

Not exactly. It depends what people come up with now, and down the road.

Like for example, pre harper you couldnt run an int based barbarian multiclass guy, now you can. Suppose artificers 3rd tree helps out int base. Suppose a 12 rog assassin/artificer running off int becomes all the rage, with new rog mechanic tree synergy and this third arty tree helping support a T5 assassin. Theres no way to know because its not out yet.

Having dex/int available means a better future, even if its roughly equal now. You think dex would be drastically superior, okay, so change your rog to dex. There are +11 int/dex items, and +4 dex/int insightful items, and destinies offer +6 to either. The "huge difference" amounts to some differences in accessibility to some enhancements.

Thats the ONE thing that is CERTAIN to continue to change as they go through the rest of the enhancement passes. Especially mechanic... whos to say rogues wont get a "combat trapper" enhancement there which parallels shadow dodge only works for int? I wouldnt try to shove assassins into any corner with this other stuff not only subject to change, but guaranteed to change.

Dex or Int solves some problems. Its overall more helpful than forcing it onto int. The rest need to be addressed by a change to the DC formula on assassinate and shadow dagger, because neither score fixes the DC issues, and saying items will do it is a disservice on multiple fronts. Again, why are only assassins required to gear up their T5 enhancement dc. And why is that okay. Dex or int isnt the problem there.

[slarden]

I think I'm following you now:

1. Remove fort bypass buff
2. Replace it with a -75% PRR debuff

200-50 PRR is a 33% drop for high PRR
60-15 is a 24% drop for low PRR

Fortification still stands to stop critical hits.

Yes so everyone is feeling more pain without the extreme damage #s. I think if they do this they can safely amp up champions without the one-shotting. But I seem to recall dev posts challenging the idea that one-shotting is coming from fortification bypass. For me when I've been dead it always says I was critically hit which is why I think IT IS the source of one-shotting. The devs said they have data that proved otherwise, but didn't elaborate.

[Soleran100]

It's certainly not a dump stat as he claims. Anyone that plays a rogue assassin understand one key number for dex

21

You must have that before any gear, ship buffs, etc. to take improved sneak attack. I have to dump my con a bit to get my dex high enough.

Why is 21 important anymore when OC is now available for all rogues?

I realize that there are reasons to want more SA but there are alot of limitations to sneak attack moments as well which can make OC a viable alternative.

[Qezuzu]

Can someone show me a break down of how high one can get their DEX?

I'm just not seeing the OP-ness of a DEX Assassin with DEX Assassinate. INT builds will always be good due to KtA anyway.

Why is 21 important anymore when OC is now available for all rogues?

I realize that there are reasons to want more SA but there are alot of limitations to sneak attack moments as well which can make OC a viable alternative.

alternative

You take both of them.

[slarden]

Why is 21 important anymore when OC is now available for all rogues?

I realize that there are reasons to want more SA but there are alot of limitations to sneak attack moments as well which can make OC a viable alternative.

I take both feats - one @ 21 and the other @ 24. I even take past life rogue: sneak of shadows for more sneak attack damage at heroic levels.

[slarden]

Can someone show me a break down of how high one can get their DEX?

I'm just not seeing the OP-ness of a DEX Assassin with DEX Assassinate. INT builds will always be good due to KtA anyway.

You take both of them.

The issue isn't just dex, but with Tenser's and a "working better than intended" Shadow Dodge and a Yugo pot that you can safely use all the time is +12 for +10 vs int or +5 to your assassinate when Sev previously declined to consider buffing assassinate. If they do go with this dex option the capstone should should include a higher int bonus for sure. +4 int with no dex bonus.

If you can fit no mercy in (which is definitely do-able for a dex build and not for an int bulid) you can combine it with sense weakness to turn mortal fear into an insta-killer for helpless.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Right now, Int based is the only way to go for an Assassin that assassinates. If Dex is added as an option, dex based will be the only way to go for an Assassin. It wouldn't be adding a second option. It would be replacing one single option with another.

I would like to see both dex and int be primary stat options for Assassins who want to assassinate, but I believe it would require some finessing. For one thing, making Shadow Dodge a multi-selector between dex and int, while it may not make any logical sense in the Acrobat tree, would help Int based assassins not get left in the dust. Tensers would be a concern as well.

If they do go with this dex option the capstone should should include a higher int bonus for sure. +4 int with no dex bonus.

Doing something like that instead might make more sense. It would be nice to see dex and int getting the same dc, with int providing a bit more dps/better trapping and dex providing more defense.

[brzytki]

snip

That I could agree with. But you have to admit it all hinges on the "if mechanic gets something that has a good synergy with assassin", so I'll agree to withhold my opinion about making it DEX only. When the Arti pass comes, we can return to the topic as well, no need to change it half year or more before a pass which doesn't even guarantee good multiclassing option for assassins.

Can someone show me a break down of how high one can get their DEX?

I'm just not seeing the OP-ness of a DEX Assassin with DEX Assassinate. INT builds will always be good due to KtA anyway.

Same as your INT on live but add 1 insightful, 2 Yugo pot, 2 race, 3 shadow dodge, 4 Tensers (burst), 2 completionist ?(free feat), possibly 1-2 more from SD (depending on how many you have now, I have 4 now and would have 5-6 if DEX).

But it's not only about max DEX. It gives other already mentioned tasty perks.

[bbqzor]

That I could agree with. But you have to admit it all hinges on the "if mechanic gets something that has a good synergy with assassin", so I'll agree to withhold my opinion about making it DEX only. When the Arti pass comes, we can return to the topic as well, no need to change it half year or more before a pass which doesn't even guarantee good multiclassing option for assassins.

Well, not just those two. I mean no one really "saw" harper coming and that helped a number of builds. I just dont see the point in limiting builds here when its not really doing anything bad to permit it. Variety, and future variety, are critical to the success of ddo. An open door for the future is better than being locked in the cellar hoping youre not forgotten. I think anyone playing this game for a couple years has found at least one character in that position before.

Same as your INT on live but add 1 insightful, 2 Yugo pot, 2 race, 3 shadow dodge, 4 Tensers (burst), 2 completionist ?(free feat), possibly 1-2 more from SD (depending on how many you have now, I have 4 now and would have 5-6 if DEX).

Whether you use them or not, for whatever reason, the only ones off that list which are actually unequal numerically are tensers and shadow dodge. Thats at most 3-4 dc change, helpful but hardly breaking anything or forcing one build over another given there are perks to either stat. I think other factors (which items or other enhancements you like, if you want tactics too, if youre pure rogue or multiclass, etc) will then be the deciding factor. And the enhancement one (shadow dodge) could just as easily go another direction in the future as more enhancement changes come. So really its like, way the game sits now you might gain 4 dc, but 2 of it is potential flux regardless so really, if youre willing to run tensers 24/7 you could get 2 dc. Thats not something to really worry over I think.

The biggest "mainstream" combo I see is an assassin rog monk splash with wind stance and shadow dodge but I think such a build would be so fragile, who cares. Killing one mob every 15 seconds tops isnt really worth the terrible, terrible prr and low hp such a build would have. In any content you actually needed the dc, youd also not really be able to survive. It might totally win at EH but like anything can kind of be built to do that so meh. I mean if it was that big a deal, roll swash, and then have prr/hp too.

Its a non issue. Worst balance case, assassin winds up somewhat closer in baby steps to swash and everyone rejoices. Best balance case, it means you can now do more than one singular int-or-nothing build to get a "working" (for assassinate anyhow) dc. As for shadow dagger, its so terrible Ive never seen it used in any serious fashion. So if that somehow becomes playable hey +1. Otherwise itll be ignored like it is now and no change.