Rogue - Assassin Changes

[davmuzl]

Lastly, Dex makes as much sense for flavor as Int. Dex: you are super precise at placing your blade. Int: you have acute senses and knowledge of anatomical weaknesses.

Maybe it should use the lower of dex and int because it is hard to actually hit the anatomical weakness?

[slarden]

I don't see power creep here, can you explain it? Ignoring of course that a non INT rogue pays a price in terms of Rogue skills and trapping (but of course this doesn't matter because this is Forum DDO so we'll ignore it)

Only my search goes down a little but my open and disable go up. Balance goes up.

For starters I save 24 points from the harper tree and 1 feat (insightful reflexes) freed up and lose very little compared to what I will gain. It's easier to get dex items (+4 insightful is easy from HH. The only good spot for ins +3 int is goggles at the moment for optimized gear. Then there is tenser's transformation which not only boosts my dex but gives full base attack bonus.

Then there is shadow dodge for more dex and now I have room for no mercy (since I saved 24 AP) in addition to sense weakness to go with a mortal fear weapon. My assassinate DC will be higher.

I think they should approach this good of an improvement with caution.

[davmuzl]

Honestly, this would be nice change simply for quality of life and to avoid forcing assassins to try and be "wizards with points in harper" from an itemization standpoint. However, I really dont think its going to do much for either ability in terms of actually getting their DC up the margin it needs to be "plausibly ee". I would much rather see several types of build be possible, and changing off int means less skill points and less search/disable, so its not without its own drawbacks. I dont think theres much of a problem in that regard. Dex can get a bit higher than int so Im sure itll help a little, but not enough to be problematic, mainly itll just permit variety and quality of life.

But I also think both those abilities need good DCs. Not good just in one "the best maximum" setup way, but good at several points along a characters progression, and right now they just arent. Shadow Dagger goes out pretty early, even with 70 int (or dex now) on a pure rogue the dc would be 58, thatll flake in some epic hards even. Assassinate can work up into some EEs of course, but changing to dex alone wont make that any more "plausible" to reach. I will reiterate again that pawning that issue off on items is going to be a poor solution. Bucklers and small shields were not given a sufficient item pass, and they were much bigger changes than assassinate dc in terms of how much player base they affected. And right now, there is no +dc for shadow dagger (nor should there be). Items arent going to fix this, and there is no history of backwards item passes ever being done well enough or complete enough for them to have been "good". A future +10 item is terrible for what it does by proxy to existing players, just as hoping for a past +1 item is unlikely and ultimately unhelpful since it doesnt affect the top which is there the majority of the issues are.

Put another way, its the only class that has to track down some dc boosting item for one of its T5 abilities. The ONLY one. No other class has some item they have to go get to boost an enhancement that doesnt already boost several other things (like +stunning etc). Adding some new item isnt going to suddenly make that any less of a burden or a suddenly better idea. The formulas just need to be nicer, or allow for a little more dc boost in the trees themselves. Like put +2 dc in the assassin capstone, so pure assassins have benefits there over multiclass to keep up with what you can do stat-wise by splitting out. And make shadow dagger add +1 dc per core or something (I mean, it needs more work than that, but theres a starter idea to link it to growing the assassin tree rather than a stat or level). Anyhow you get the idea, hopefully.

So int or dex is a good move, it will open up variety and free assassins from several anchors on them like the limited int itemization and "forced" points into harper. But it also wont address the problem with either shadow dagger or assassinate which is insufficient dc at the top difficulty/build regions, relative to both how the abilities play and how similar abilities work elsewhere.

A lvl 20 rogue actually already gets +2 assassinate DC. 1 from the last rogue lvl and one for the extra int in the capstone.

Btw iirc the item passes for epic phiarlan and deneith items were great.

[dualscissors]

Maybe it should use the lower of dex and int because it is hard to actually hit the anatomical weakness?

This might be realistic, but (big but) DC builds have to pump everything into one stat. Forcing a second stat - that could not be pumped nearly as high - would just be a major gimping. If assassins (or casters) had to have 2 max stats for DC it would be a death to those builds.

[slarden]

A PRR debuff hurts low PRR characters more.

It would moderate spike damage which is the biggest problem since i get more mitigation from fortification (50-75%) than I do with PRR.

[davmuzl]

Only my search goes down a little but my open and disable go up. Balance goes up.

For starters I save 24 points from the harper tree and 1 feat (insightful reflexes) freed up and lose very little compared to what I will gain. It's easier to get dex items (+4 insightful is easy from HH. The only good spot for ins +3 int is goggles at the moment for optimized gear. Then there is tenser's transformation which not only boosts my dex but gives full base attack bonus.

Then there is shadow dodge for more dex and now I have room for no mercy (since I saved 24 AP) in addition to sense weakness to go with a mortal fear weapon. My assassinate DC will be higher.

I think they should approach this good of an improvement with caution.

There is the +4 int armor from the new madness chain. But I totally agree.

[davmuzl]

This might be realistic, but (big but) DC builds have to pump everything into one stat. Forcing a second stat - that could not be pumped nearly as high - would just be a major gimping. If assassins (or casters) had to have 2 max stats for DC it would be a death to those builds.

This was not ment to be a serious suggestion

[dualscissors]

This was not ment to be a serious suggestion

Heh, that makes more sense! :-)

[levy1964]

a friend asked me if I go back to pure rogue with the current changes.
my answer? definitely NOT if DPS will not be at least comparable to the revmap classes.
does not matter to me whether assasin should be focused on stealth or acrobat maybe more suitable for DPS

Rogue DPS should be the best, but this "best" cost u worst/bad defense it's a good deal, and this is true so in the PNP and the old DDO (before ED)

so Dev's and player do u remember this "balance"

forgottent thread "DPS Chellange" https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...hallenge-Part2

oh watch this //"Cetus" vs rogUe// vid from 2011-2012

Round 1 Cetus

[levy1964]

Round 2 the RogUe (fight start 3:08)



ps.1 now u know thruth, it's a gimp xD
ps.2 forgive my from writing so little change in the thread dedicated to my beloved class but English is not my strong teeth delve deeper discussions knows.

--------------------
levy1964:
- hey Sanjo how long we are togather
Sanjo:
- hmmm...this be, 5 years but...grrrrrr
levy1964:
- whoot ?
Sanjo:
- u bastard, betrayed me with ranger
levy1964:
- oh, come on, u should understand how u poor when u pure
--------------------
ps.3 yo council just add crit bonus or somnthing like that to Sneak Attack (mayby capstone)

[dualscissors]

Only my search goes down a little but my open and disable go up. Balance goes up.

For starters I save 24 points from the harper tree and 1 feat (insightful reflexes) freed up and lose very little compared to what I will gain. It's easier to get dex items (+4 insightful is easy from HH. The only good spot for ins +3 int is goggles at the moment for optimized gear. Then there is tenser's transformation which not only boosts my dex but gives full base attack bonus.

Then there is shadow dodge for more dex and now I have room for no mercy (since I saved 24 AP) in addition to sense weakness to go with a mortal fear weapon. My assassinate DC will be higher.

I think they should approach this good of an improvement with caution.

Off the cuff, going Dex I suppose would still create a temptation for spending a fair bit in Harper, even if it wouldn't be as essential as the current Assassin build (that is to say you need Harper for INT to have a respectable damage stat).

The easy to maintain Know the Angles with a secondary INT of 40 (+15 mod) may not be as good as with an INT of 64 but it's not shabby. INT based would grant an extra ~+7 dmg per hit with Know the Angles (not counting crits) compared to Dex builds.

Harper's Magical Endurance for a significant increase on SPs is very key for keeping Rejuv Cocoon up.

And everywhere you can buy INT-ups you can also buy DEX-ups in Harper.

It would create some diversity in how tempting it is for rogue players to dip heavily into Thief Acrobat (or Mechanic depending on what changes are made) or going deep into Harper.

Good point about Tenser's. While it's a bit of a pain to keep up, it does last long enough for many fights - and there isn't a +4 INT scroll equivalent. For those who'd like the DC for assassinate to be a couple points higher, this would do it! But maybe it would put INT builds a couple DC points behind.

[IronClan]

My first and immediate thought was this:

But first and immediate thoughts are generally based on intuition and not objectivity. INT is better DPS than DEX currently and DEX gets worse when they make Shadow Dodge +3 DEX instead of the current +6. Honestly I think they need to put DEX in as an alternative just to allow DEX to not sink totally into the realm of best dump stat with Wisdom, although I suspect DEX is already in that realm, as I can't come up with even a ranged build that isn't doing 12-13 more base damage per shot with INT*.

You guys see that screen shot of the guy doing three 700+ point crits at level 10? See Know the Angles on his hotbar?

I would really hate to see the Dev's shy away from allowing DEX to assassinate because of immediate gut reactions to it. Especially when DEX while not currently faded out of the popular meta totally, is currently a pretty sub par build choice*.


* Outside of a Shuricannon of course

[IronClan]

Only my search goes down a little but my open and disable go up. Balance goes up.

For starters I save 24 points from the harper tree and 1 feat (insightful reflexes) freed up and lose very little compared to what I will gain. It's easier to get dex items (+4 insightful is easy from HH. The only good spot for ins +3 int is goggles at the moment for optimized gear. Then there is tenser's transformation which not only boosts my dex but gives full base attack bonus.

Then there is shadow dodge for more dex and now I have room for no mercy (since I saved 24 AP) in addition to sense weakness to go with a mortal fear weapon. My assassinate DC will be higher.

I think they should approach this good of an improvement with caution.

You're talking about 3 or 4 points of modifier.... I am talking about 12 or 13 points of modifier...

I've literally already min maxed past where you're currently stopped at. Not meaning this to sound insulting I was also stopped where you are for a while. In fact I had an discussion (ElisDee was involved and may remember the thread I am talking about) and during the process of the discussion weighing the options (or considering the angles as it were) took me from DEX based staff builds using the not WAI +6 Shadow Dodge, to all in for INT. My Current Staff build is INT based because DEX would have been significantly lower DPS.

[Dreppo]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

YES PLEASE, this is sorely needed to make DEX assassin builds even remotely viable again. They were somewhat viable before Harper, because you could decide to pump DEX to emphasize melee DPS (to-hit and dmg mod) vs pump INT to emphasize Assassinate DC. But now with Harper, you literally get everything with INT. To-hit, dmg, Assassinate DC, even more dmg with Know The Angles, oodles of skill points, bonus to key trapping skills, and reflex saves with Insightful Reflexes. Harper simply killed DEX for all builds. Allowing DEX to Assassinate DC is needed just to brings DEX assassins back into the discussion. Most builds will still be INT-based but there will be reasons to consider DEX-based.

[dualscissors]

But first and immediate thoughts are generally based on intuition and not objectivity. INT is better DPS than DEX currently and DEX gets worse when they make Shadow Dodge +3 DEX instead of the current +6. Honestly I think they need to put DEX in as an alternative just to allow DEX to not sink totally into the realm of best dump stat with Wisdom, although I suspect DEX is already the best Dump stat, as I can't come up with even a ranged build that isn't doing 12-13 more base damage per shot with INT*.

You guys see that screen shot of the guy doing three 700+ point crits at level 10? See Know the Angles on his hotbar?

I would really hate to see the Dev's shy away from allowing DEX to assassinate because of immediate gut reactions to it. Especially when DEX while not currently faded out of the popular meta totally, is currently a pretty sub par build choice*.


* Outside of a Shuricannon of course

I can get behind this. (Maybe Wm. Shatner and H. Rollins could too.)

It seems Int is a better DPS stat with assassin and Dex would allow more options to free up a feat and APs.

The Tenser scroll question looms, though, in that a medium length temporary effect for an extra +4 (+2 mod) to Assassinate might be a dealbreaker. I'll let others comment on that point.

[bbqzor]

A lvl 20 rogue actually already gets +2 assassinate DC. 1 from the last rogue lvl and one for the extra int in the capstone.

And the "+2" dc they currently get is more than replicated by several multiclass options. Without actual DC boost, the best way to be an assassin is to stop being rogue, and thats not something I think is good. Staying pure rogue should be equally viable for using a rogue based ability. Adding some more DC to the top end (capstone works, as its most necessary for epics) is the most logical place to address that.

Btw iirc the item passes for epic phiarlan and deneith items were great.

Im not talking about redoing some loot from a pack. Im talking about game-wide systemic changes where they integrate new loot in a backwards compatible fashion. Rune arms was the closest to a well done version of this, but it has many gaps and only a minority of the arms are even decent. The buckler pass added 2 bucklers in epic and that was it (and then 2 more the next expansion, also epic). There are still no new heroic bucklers for anyone actually leveling a swash up. The Light Shield changes brought changes to one singular item, which a ml of 17. From 1-16 there is still only two named light shields in the game. Then, again, they added 2 epic ones which are both mediocre at best.

Point is, saying "we are going to introduce new assassin items" means either A) they will go back and add some, which has never worked out well. Or B) they will ignore the existing problem and add some new one with more dc, but that only creates creep and leaves everyone before that point with the problem.

A better solution is addressing the formulas of both assassinate and shadow dagger to not be terrible. It doesnt create this huge itemization problem. And seriously, again, assassin is the only class/enhancement tree in this boat. Why? It isnt the only instant kill in town anymore, its definitely not the most powerful. Or even second most powerful. So: Why does it require its own special gear demands? Rather than encourage this outdated trend, Id rather see the issue addressed in a manner more consistent with *the whole rest of the game* and just have the formulas be made not-terrible. Itd be much better for the game, and stop tying assassins to forcibly using specific items to keep up with the content, just letting their abilities go up like anyone elses.

[Dreppo]

Only my search goes down a little but my open and disable go up.

Disable is INT-based, not DEX-based. So going DEX-based makes both your search and disable (the two key trapping skills) go down, while open goes up -- but lock DCs are so low that most people don't bother maxing it.

[Monkey-Boy]

a friend asked me if I go back to pure rogue with the current changes.
my answer? definitely NOT if DPS will not be at least comparable to the revmap classes.
does not matter to me whether assasin should be focused on stealth or acrobat maybe more suitable for DPS

Rogue DPS should be the best, but this "best" cost u worst/bad defense it's a good deal, and this is true so in the PNP and the old DDO (before ED)

so Dev's and player do u remember this "balance"

forgottent thread "DPS Chellange" https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...hallenge-Part2

oh watch this //"Cetus" vs rogUe// vid from 2011-2012

Round 1 Cetus

Kyorli's rogue beat this time, Shade never updated his list because he chose to deny reality.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post4225140

[brzytki]

There is the +4 int armor from the new madness chain. But I totally agree.

Have you seen the MDB on that armor? It's attrociously low, like 12, no rogue would ever wear that.

[davmuzl]

Have you seen the MDB on that armor? It's attrociously low, like 12, no rogue would ever wear that.

That's probably because it's not ment to be a rogue item, but if all you want is max out the assassinate DC then you have to consider it.