Rogue - Assassin Changes

[CThruTheEgo]

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Just to clarify, is "Weakening Strikes" a new ability or are you referring to the "Weakness Poison" ability in tier 4 of the proposed changes?

[Monkey-Boy]

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

Sev~

Random traps is a good thing, but the traps NEED to be able to kill people or nobody will care. I'm thinking triple the EE HH trap damage and you'll probably be fine.

[HatsuharuZ]

Random traps is a good thing, but the traps NEED to be able to kill people or nobody will care. I'm thinking triple the EE HH trap damage and you'll probably be fine.

The EE Haunted Halls traps kill people without evasion already. I think those are fine, lol.

[slarden]

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Yeah, I know I said we were going to hold off on further changes until Lamannia but we've been talking about the discussions on Rogue mitigation.

Sev~

Both changes are great.

I really think the complete fortification bypass buff in champions creates a huge balance problem in the game because big crits are especially harsh on low-PRR characters. If changing that isn't possible more mitigation through skillful play is most welcomed.

I will definitely take weakening strikes if I can mitigate damage by 20%.

If changes aren't completely done at this point I will point out one thing I think is problematic:

Running invis is more effective than sneaking because the enemy has more chance to notice you when sneaking since you are moving slower. Would you consider changing the top tier sneak speed boost from 50% to 75% (25/50/75).

Thank you for your continued refinement.

[CThruTheEgo]

EDIT: I was wrong.

[Grailhawk]

Running invis is more effective than sneaking because the enemy has more chance to notice you when sneaking since you are moving slower. Would you consider changing the top tier sneak speed boost from 50% to 75% (25/50/75).

This or adding some more sneak reduction in to a Tier 5 or in to the Cores. Rogues need to be able to move and move fast while in stealth, It should be on of there shtick's. Leaving that 50% caps in monk and ranger is cool but assassin rogues should be able to do a bit more 25% sounds right to me.

[Monkey-Boy]

The EE Haunted Halls traps kill people without evasion already. I think those are fine, lol.

The PRR pass has made them a lot less scarry.

[Grailhawk]

Movement speed is reduced by 50% while sneaking, isn't it? So with another 50% from faster sneaking, that brings it up to 100%. Add in the movement speed bonus from acrobat which grants 1% per rogue level and a pure assassin should be sneaking at 120% base movement speed, right? Unless I'm wrong about the initial reduction of sneak, that should be perfect.

That's not how it works (at least not how it worked when U19 came out and i tested it). The reduction happens in such a way that you go from 100% to 50% having the enh raised it to 75%, Its not a +50% movement speed while in stealth it a reduction in the penalty so you can think of it as a +25% speed while in stealth.

So assuming base movement is 100px pre second, thief would move that to 120px per second, Stealth on that would drop to you 60px per second, having the stealth speed enh would lower it to mean you move at 90px per second.

[slarden]

Movement speed is reduced by 50% while sneaking, isn't it? So with another 50% from faster sneaking, that brings it up to 100%. Add in the movement speed bonus from acrobat which grants 1% per rogue level and a pure assassin should be sneaking at 120% base movement speed, right? Unless I'm wrong about the initial reduction of sneak, that should be perfect.

I am below 100% with the 50% sneak speed boost now.

I think it's 50% * 150% not 50% + 50% so it's currently at 75% base. I did forget about the 20% speed boost which is why I never mentioned previously so that brings it up to 90% base (50% * 150% * 120%) which I guess is good enough. The 20% is applied everywhere I assume so we are still sneaking at 75% of our standard speed. Changing the top tier from 50% to 75% sneak speed boost would change it from 75% of our standard speed to 87.5% of our standard speed.

I guess it depends on what negative game effect faster sneaking creates. I can't think of any downside.

[CThruTheEgo]

That's not how it works (at least not how it worked when U19 came out and i tested it). The reduction happens in such a way that you go from 100% to 50% having the enh raised it to 75%, Its not a +50% movement speed while in stealth it a reduction in the penalty so you can think of it as a +25% speed while in stealth.

So assuming base movement is 100px pre second, thief would move that to 120px per second, Stealth on that would drop to you 60px per second, having the stealth speed enh would lower it to mean you move at 90px per second.

Ugh. Thanks for the clarification.

Sev, we need full movement speed at least. This would drastically increase that "fun factor" you mentioned as being a core evaluation criteria of the these changes.

[Blackheartox]

The PRR pass has made them a lot less scarry.

What he said.

My experience with necro sorc is that it is really effective.
Thing is, in necro 4 the hold burst doesnt work out very well.
So swaping points here and there and going exalted you gain effectivness in that content.
Sunbursts /undeath to death and regular wail etc stuff.
Your hold burst still instakills stuff, but you gain a lot more versatility like flesh to stoning blinds and similiar fun stuff.
Also a heal which is not needed but always welcome.
Dps suffers alot and il prolly do my 18 sorc 1 monk 1 fsoul idea on main since debuffs stack and give you 26.5% more dps on the element you pick.

But back to necro sorc, its only i think 1 dc behind a pure specd pm in necro due to exalteds dcs and ability to gain 1 extra dc via taken cookies.
And you still keep your caster levels imollation and vulnerability.
More sp, and faster casting speed and faster cds make it a better instakiller imo then pmasters are (i know its silly but i played a pm in ees and considerd its burst dc to be quite strong and powerful but sorc is just funny, you can do so many things with that class that it is beyond funny)

I would not want sorcs to be able to instakill oranged named.
Personally only thing i thnk casters need to be on par with melles is more burst dps, aka prolly more spellpower would fix it.
They dont need it, but if we get melle power on gear then it will be necessary to be on the same ground

[CThruTheEgo]

I am below 100% with the 50% sneak speed boost now.

I think it's 50% * 150% not 50% + 50% so it's currently at 75% base. I did forget about the 20% speed boost which is why I never mentioned previously so that brings it up to 90% base (50% * 150% * 120%) which I guess is good enough. The 20% is applied everywhere I assume so we are still sneaking at 75% of our standard speed. Changing the top tier from 50% to 75% sneak speed boost would change it from 75% of our standard speed to 87.5% of our standard speed.

I guess it depends on what negative game effect faster sneaking creates. I can't think of any downside.

Yeah I realized that doesn't add up currently.

90% is a 15% improvement over what we have currently, but it is still a disadvantage that is simply not necessary. It accomplishes nothing other than sticking to PnP tradition, which I think we have veered far enough away from in other mechanics that there's no need anymore to keep up pretenses.

[Blackheartox]

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Yeah, I know I said we were going to hold off on further changes until Lamannia but we've been talking about the discussions on Rogue mitigation.

Sev~

Ty very much with the random trap location.
That really brings a nice doze of flavor, esp if you guys make the gear to be lets say "must have" for most builds.
Also as others said, make the traps do such horribly huge damage at least on ee, that we dont just walk thro em without caring at all on ee.
I dont think punishing prr chars should be a bad thing, imo evasion should still keep its ground for the main reason it was designed for aka traps.
I dont play evasion toons now, but i want evasion to be strong and needed.
Grouping or reason to not go full bulletproof prr builds. Whatever reason, also another thing, could you guys design content in future with that idea?
Random placed heavy hard hitting traps

[Severlin]

Just to clarify, is "Weakening Strikes" a new ability or are you referring to the "Weakness Poison" ability in tier 4 of the proposed changes?

Weakness Poison got changed to Weakening Strikes when we changed the mechanic to "Assassin's Mark" instead of "Poisoned" so it would work on enemies immune to poison.

Sev~

[Blackheartox]

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Yeah, I know I said we were going to hold off on further changes until Lamannia but we've been talking about the discussions on Rogue mitigation.

Sev~

Another thing sev, i know i might sound now very odd n such.
But if you consider that as a 20% less damage, with dodge that can really go high now as a rogue with acrobat splash and with prr gear /lets assume 35 from gear and full maxed 36 from plifes and lets say 25 from armor /no idea how much it is now since i really never played a light armor char but i would prolly do medium on rogue-

Anyways now we are looking at 20% less from weaken strike around 30 lets say dodge and nearly 100 /but it can pass 100 im sure of it prr and displace for 50% conceal, and lets assume someone for whatever reason actually plays in shadowdancer for 25% incorpo.


To me that sounds like hella lot damage mitigation if we include evasion.

Only weakness would be forti based spells and maybe will based spells /which can most of the time be negated with items/spells.
I mean im not against this idea, but the mitigation suddenly seems quite good to me, maybe slightly to good heh
esp if i count that i never saw a spot with many casters that spam desintis where you cant go in and assasinate em all

[CThruTheEgo]

Weakness Poison got changed to Weakening Strikes when we changed the mechanic to "Assassin's Mark" instead of "Poisoned" so it would work on enemies immune to poison.

Sev~

Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

[CThruTheEgo]

Another thing sev, i know i might sound now very odd n such.
But if you consider that as a 20% less damage, with dodge that can really go high now as a rogue with acrobat splash and with prr gear /lets assume 35 from gear and full maxed 36 from plifes and lets say 25 from armor /no idea how much it is now since i really never played a light armor char but i would prolly do medium on rogue-

Anyways now we are looking at 20% less from weaken strike around 30 lets say dodge and nearly 100 /but it can pass 100 im sure of it prr and displace for 50% conceal, and lets assume someone for whatever reason actually plays in shadowdancer for 25% incorpo.


To me that sounds like hella lot damage mitigation if we include evasion.

Only weakness would be forti based spells and maybe will based spells /which can most of the time be negated with items/spells.
I mean im not against this idea, but the mitigation suddenly seems quite good to me, maybe slightly to good heh
esp if i count that i never saw a spot with many casters that spam desintis where you cant go in and assasinate em all

Damage avoidance is not the same as damage mitigation.

[redoubt]

Weakness Poison got changed to Weakening Strikes when we changed the mechanic to "Assassin's Mark" instead of "Poisoned" so it would work on enemies immune to poison.

Sev~

Ty again for staying involved with the thread.


There is a lot of talk on traps. I think random is great. I also think they need to be deadly, but agree that HH traps are deadly already, except for those with super PRR/MRR numbers.

PRR is taking the edge off of blade/slash traps now. That makes sense to me.

What if traps like fire jets bypassed MRR? Put those traps back into the realm of the evasion characters?

[slarden]

Another thing sev, i know i might sound now very odd n such.
But if you consider that as a 20% less damage, with dodge that can really go high now as a rogue with acrobat splash and with prr gear /lets assume 35 from gear and full maxed 36 from plifes and lets say 25 from armor /no idea how much it is now since i really never played a light armor char but i would prolly do medium on rogue-

Anyways now we are looking at 20% less from weaken strike around 30 lets say dodge and nearly 100 /but it can pass 100 im sure of it prr and displace for 50% conceal, and lets assume someone for whatever reason actually plays in shadowdancer for 25% incorpo.


To me that sounds like hella lot damage mitigation if we include evasion.

Only weakness would be forti based spells and maybe will based spells /which can most of the time be negated with items/spells.
I mean im not against this idea, but the mitigation suddenly seems quite good to me, maybe slightly to good heh
esp if i count that i never saw a spot with many casters that spam desintis where you cant go in and assasinate em all

I bolded the the part above that really stood and really helps me understand why you would say some of the things you said.

The biggest problem I have on my rogue (in light armor) is those really big hits. With rogue PRR and complete fort bypass that can mean instant death. My barbarian in heavy armor never has this problem.

Let's not forget that displacement is available to all classes equally - rogues are likely relying on clickies and not all rogues have clickies. People keep mentioning displacement like it's a class benefit of rogue -it's not. Shadowdancer 25% ghostly is an ED benefit and not a class benefit - available to anyone using that ED. Many prefer LD over Shadowdancer.

I really like Sev's proposal because it requires the character to apply some good tactics while playing. I would love to see complete fort bypass changed to armor piercing 100% but based on the non-response on that topic in many threads I assume that is a dead issue. It also isn't 20% on rogue splashes since rogue level is part of the equation.

[Ghwyn]

The EE Haunted Halls traps kill people without evasion already. I think those are fine, lol.

No, not even on EE do they kill, unless a toon is very squishy. My trapper wears HA; there is no need for evasion anymore.