Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Ayseifn]

So.... Freedom of Movement was once changed (nerfed) to only stop magical effects, perhaps the same argument could be applied here?

Now that I think about it, banishing effects and turn undead are considered death effects by Deathward effects as well.

I'd be cool with assassinate working on deathwarded mobs, just put a 10 second or so immunity to it like neutralize poison does when cast. So get in before DW is cast or wait 10 secs or so to get the kill.

[Monkey-Boy]

Assassinate working on Orange mobs might actually make it worth something.

[CThruTheEgo]

Assassinate working on Orange mobs might actually make it worth something.

/signed. It used to work on them, not sure why it was changed.

[Blackheartox]

Assassinate working on Orange mobs might actually make it worth something.

That would be cool, but ONLY if casters dont get necro to work as well.
Im considering my messing around with exalted necro sorc to be a real blast in fun when it comes to trash clear (and still way ahead of pm when it comes to boss dps)

[Monkey-Boy]

That would be cool, but ONLY if casters dont get necro to work as well.

Agreed.

Im considering my messing around with exalted necro sorc to be a real blast in fun when it comes to trash clear (and still way ahead of pm when it comes to boss dps)

Post details of your experience once you're broken it in.

[Severlin]

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Yeah, I know I said we were going to hold off on further changes until Lamannia but we've been talking about the discussions on Rogue mitigation.

Sev~

[CThruTheEgo]

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

I'm glad to hear this. We have needed random traps for a long time now. As long as this is implemented well (i.e. enough randomness so they are not predictable after a few runs), this will really add to the fun factor of traps.

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

This is fantastic. I love this idea. This kind of mitigation better thematically than PRR. Thanks for listening and keeping us informed.

Yeah, I know I said we were going to hold off on further changes until Lamannia but we've been talking about the discussions on Rogue mitigation.

I must have missed where the assassin changes were done until Lam. Are you all considering changing measure the foe to fade 1 stack every 6 seconds instead of all at once after 10 seconds? Inquiring minds want to know.

[CThruTheEgo]

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Just to clarify, is "Weakening Strikes" a new ability or are you referring to the "Weakness Poison" ability in tier 4 of the proposed changes?

[Severlin]

Just to clarify, is "Weakening Strikes" a new ability or are you referring to the "Weakness Poison" ability in tier 4 of the proposed changes?

Weakness Poison got changed to Weakening Strikes when we changed the mechanic to "Assassin's Mark" instead of "Poisoned" so it would work on enemies immune to poison.

Sev~

[Monkey-Boy]

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

Sev~

Random traps is a good thing, but the traps NEED to be able to kill people or nobody will care. I'm thinking triple the EE HH trap damage and you'll probably be fine.

[HatsuharuZ]

Random traps is a good thing, but the traps NEED to be able to kill people or nobody will care. I'm thinking triple the EE HH trap damage and you'll probably be fine.

The EE Haunted Halls traps kill people without evasion already. I think those are fine, lol.

[slarden]

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Yeah, I know I said we were going to hold off on further changes until Lamannia but we've been talking about the discussions on Rogue mitigation.

Sev~

Both changes are great.

I really think the complete fortification bypass buff in champions creates a huge balance problem in the game because big crits are especially harsh on low-PRR characters. If changing that isn't possible more mitigation through skillful play is most welcomed.

I will definitely take weakening strikes if I can mitigate damage by 20%.

If changes aren't completely done at this point I will point out one thing I think is problematic:

Running invis is more effective than sneaking because the enemy has more chance to notice you when sneaking since you are moving slower. Would you consider changing the top tier sneak speed boost from 50% to 75% (25/50/75).

Thank you for your continued refinement.

[CThruTheEgo]

EDIT: I was wrong.

[Grailhawk]

Running invis is more effective than sneaking because the enemy has more chance to notice you when sneaking since you are moving slower. Would you consider changing the top tier sneak speed boost from 50% to 75% (25/50/75).

This or adding some more sneak reduction in to a Tier 5 or in to the Cores. Rogues need to be able to move and move fast while in stealth, It should be on of there shtick's. Leaving that 50% caps in monk and ranger is cool but assassin rogues should be able to do a bit more 25% sounds right to me.

[Blackheartox]

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Yeah, I know I said we were going to hold off on further changes until Lamannia but we've been talking about the discussions on Rogue mitigation.

Sev~

Ty very much with the random trap location.
That really brings a nice doze of flavor, esp if you guys make the gear to be lets say "must have" for most builds.
Also as others said, make the traps do such horribly huge damage at least on ee, that we dont just walk thro em without caring at all on ee.
I dont think punishing prr chars should be a bad thing, imo evasion should still keep its ground for the main reason it was designed for aka traps.
I dont play evasion toons now, but i want evasion to be strong and needed.
Grouping or reason to not go full bulletproof prr builds. Whatever reason, also another thing, could you guys design content in future with that idea?
Random placed heavy hard hitting traps

[Blackheartox]

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Yeah, I know I said we were going to hold off on further changes until Lamannia but we've been talking about the discussions on Rogue mitigation.

Sev~

Another thing sev, i know i might sound now very odd n such.
But if you consider that as a 20% less damage, with dodge that can really go high now as a rogue with acrobat splash and with prr gear /lets assume 35 from gear and full maxed 36 from plifes and lets say 25 from armor /no idea how much it is now since i really never played a light armor char but i would prolly do medium on rogue-

Anyways now we are looking at 20% less from weaken strike around 30 lets say dodge and nearly 100 /but it can pass 100 im sure of it prr and displace for 50% conceal, and lets assume someone for whatever reason actually plays in shadowdancer for 25% incorpo.


To me that sounds like hella lot damage mitigation if we include evasion.

Only weakness would be forti based spells and maybe will based spells /which can most of the time be negated with items/spells.
I mean im not against this idea, but the mitigation suddenly seems quite good to me, maybe slightly to good heh
esp if i count that i never saw a spot with many casters that spam desintis where you cant go in and assasinate em all

[CThruTheEgo]

Another thing sev, i know i might sound now very odd n such.
But if you consider that as a 20% less damage, with dodge that can really go high now as a rogue with acrobat splash and with prr gear /lets assume 35 from gear and full maxed 36 from plifes and lets say 25 from armor /no idea how much it is now since i really never played a light armor char but i would prolly do medium on rogue-

Anyways now we are looking at 20% less from weaken strike around 30 lets say dodge and nearly 100 /but it can pass 100 im sure of it prr and displace for 50% conceal, and lets assume someone for whatever reason actually plays in shadowdancer for 25% incorpo.


To me that sounds like hella lot damage mitigation if we include evasion.

Only weakness would be forti based spells and maybe will based spells /which can most of the time be negated with items/spells.
I mean im not against this idea, but the mitigation suddenly seems quite good to me, maybe slightly to good heh
esp if i count that i never saw a spot with many casters that spam desintis where you cant go in and assasinate em all

Damage avoidance is not the same as damage mitigation.

[slarden]

Another thing sev, i know i might sound now very odd n such.
But if you consider that as a 20% less damage, with dodge that can really go high now as a rogue with acrobat splash and with prr gear /lets assume 35 from gear and full maxed 36 from plifes and lets say 25 from armor /no idea how much it is now since i really never played a light armor char but i would prolly do medium on rogue-

Anyways now we are looking at 20% less from weaken strike around 30 lets say dodge and nearly 100 /but it can pass 100 im sure of it prr and displace for 50% conceal, and lets assume someone for whatever reason actually plays in shadowdancer for 25% incorpo.


To me that sounds like hella lot damage mitigation if we include evasion.

Only weakness would be forti based spells and maybe will based spells /which can most of the time be negated with items/spells.
I mean im not against this idea, but the mitigation suddenly seems quite good to me, maybe slightly to good heh
esp if i count that i never saw a spot with many casters that spam desintis where you cant go in and assasinate em all

I bolded the the part above that really stood and really helps me understand why you would say some of the things you said.

The biggest problem I have on my rogue (in light armor) is those really big hits. With rogue PRR and complete fort bypass that can mean instant death. My barbarian in heavy armor never has this problem.

Let's not forget that displacement is available to all classes equally - rogues are likely relying on clickies and not all rogues have clickies. People keep mentioning displacement like it's a class benefit of rogue -it's not. Shadowdancer 25% ghostly is an ED benefit and not a class benefit - available to anyone using that ED. Many prefer LD over Shadowdancer.

I really like Sev's proposal because it requires the character to apply some good tactics while playing. I would love to see complete fort bypass changed to armor piercing 100% but based on the non-response on that topic in many threads I assume that is a dead issue. It also isn't 20% on rogue splashes since rogue level is part of the equation.

[Severlin]

Another thing sev, i know i might sound now very odd n such.
But if you consider that as a 20% less damage, with dodge that can really go high now as a rogue with acrobat splash and with prr gear /lets assume 35 from gear and full maxed 36 from plifes and lets say 25 from armor /no idea how much it is now since i really never played a light armor char but i would prolly do medium on rogue-

Anyways now we are looking at 20% less from weaken strike around 30 lets say dodge and nearly 100 /but it can pass 100 im sure of it prr and displace for 50% conceal, and lets assume someone for whatever reason actually plays in shadowdancer for 25% incorpo.


To me that sounds like hella lot damage mitigation if we include evasion.

Only weakness would be forti based spells and maybe will based spells /which can most of the time be negated with items/spells.
I mean im not against this idea, but the mitigation suddenly seems quite good to me, maybe slightly to good heh
esp if i count that i never saw a spot with many casters that spam desintis where you cant go in and assasinate em all

Your weakness will also be hordes of enemies where you can't apply your debuff on all of them. But that's the Assassin design - strong mitigation on the single target where you can prepare, and less on the angry mob chasing you.

Sev~

[Grailhawk]

Some comments:
~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Sev~

This is good but I'm thematically I would prefer more abilities that prevent mobs from attacking a rogue (like bluf, feint).