Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Bobby88888]

Meld Into Darkness already does that for 15 secs/2 mins, not seeing the huge issue.

1 isn't terribly OP but with 2, or even 3 (its possible to get) it becomes very OP to be completely unhittible for ~1 min with about 1 min downtime. half of the time you are completely unkillable. Infact if you triggered them in the right order you could have over a min of 100% dodge every 2 minutes.

and people are complaining (I'm not saying it is unjustified) about pally high PRR making them virtually unkillable. PRR has nothing compared to 1 min of invincibility.

That is the huge issue.

[Urjak]

Here is the first draft of potential changes to the Assassin tree.

*snip*

Sev~

This looks all interesting, but tbh the question that bothers me most about Assassins:
Will Assassinate be fixed so that it works when soloing as well? (Currently it does not)

That would be the most important fix for Assassin in my oppinion

[brzytki]

Rogues also have a lot of non-combat advantages.

We are more interested in "is this class fun for people who like that playstyle" than ranks. I suspect any discussion about ranks will involve a lot of "how do we define the ranks?" and "by what criteria are we ranking the class?" Some people will rank classes by speed in which they can complete content solo but that's not really a criteria we'd use. Some might use face to face survival times. How do we add the ability to disarm traps to rankings? That question will, I suspect, vary from player to player and be totally arbitrary. Discussions of ranking will like devolve quickly into areas that are not productive.

Sev~

What exactly are those "non-combat" advantages?

• Disabling traps? Yeah, right. Because everybody stops instead of facerolling through them like they never existed taking little damage if any (most of the traps can be avoided with good timing, elemental resistance/prot/absorption and PRR for physical ones significantly cut down the damage taken), not to mention it's not a unique ability (arti) and a lvl 1-2 rogue splash can take care of most traps in game.
• UMD? In heroics it's good but in epics it's only a minor convenience, plus it's easy enough for everyone to get it for buffs since MotU.
• Stealth? The only prestige that uses it is assassin and then it's mostly for Assassinate in group play.
• Evasion? MRR.

See, if you'd made those rankings, even internally, the game wouldn't be such an unbalanced mess right now. Ever since MotU rogues have been losing their place on the DPS podium and with the new "balanced" pally, bard and barb it's only getting worse.

• You've made pallies invincible with their high PRR, heals, high saves and high DPS with their Zeal and Holy Sword.
  
• You've made bards similarly survivable with their displacement, dodge higher than rogues/monks, evasion, heals, fascinate and high DPS with their doublestrike, attack speed, often crits and best insta-killers in game with ridiculous Coup de Grace DC.
  
• Lastly, you've taken away barbarian's "sponginess" by giving them more HP, more HAmp than any other class, on-hit/on-kill/passive heals (that scale with MP!! which you obviously slapped them generously with) and high DPS due to aforementioned MP, AoE cleaves and high crit profile.

Rogues are less fun now because they can't keep up with other classes (i mean literally, they are slower than other melees which is compounded by the need to sneak for 5-10 to increase their assassinate DC), lack of MP both in trees and in TWF feats, SA not scaling well in epics and absolutely lackluster ED DPS-wise with an Epic Moment not even deserving to be spat upon, no PRR/heals in trees or class features.

• The movement speed issue is being addressed with the new enhancement in acrobat tree, we'll see if it's enough during Lama testing.
  
• The lack of MP, i honestly don't get it why you excluded TWF while buffing all other fighting styles. Apart from epic levels, ED cores, Harper tree and new Measure the Foe (sneaking for 5 seconds every 10 seconds, yay!) there is no way a rogue can get more MP which is really confusing when we have a few attacks the scale with MP in the tree. Oh, wait, i forgot the Boost change, i'd rather have some passive MP.
  
• The reason why assassins fall behind in DPS in epics while other classes see huge numbers is really simple - SA are not affected by crits. All other classes when they get +damage, it's added to the base which counts towards crits. With the crit profile of x3 or x4 (or even higher for barbs) they get almost all thier damage multiplied and then slap at least 100-120 MP from epic lvls, LD, trees and fighting styles and it's multiplied once more. Now we have an assassin with around 60 MP (which is really high for an assassin and requires heavy investment in harper tree) with low base damage weapons (which you've pigeonholed assassins into using to even stay competitive with all other classes) and all those 27d6 SA (average 94,5 dmg) is affected by 60 MP which gives us a whooping ~151 damage, let's count in 5% physical vulnerability from core6 SD and it's ~159 dmg. You think single target 159 SA plus base damage is good enough to keep up with a cleaving blitzing ANYONE?
  
• No PRR/heals, that's pretty obvious, scroll healing mid fight is dead and no amount of dodge get you through spike damage.

[brzytki]

Hey, Sev edit OP because you placed Venomed Blades in T1 instead of T2. Also, you said you'll be upping MP in Measure the Foe to 4 per stack and PRR in Light Armor Mastery to 1/3/5, if it's still on the table.

And i have a question, does Light Armor Mastery increase max dodge cap, as in beyond 25%, or is it just a misleading sentence to trick us? I'm looking at the Spinning Staff Wall, where you explicitly stated that it increases max dodge cap and i'm worried all of us assumed LAM does too when it's not the case. If it doesn't, then it's a really bad T5 enhancement.

Light Armor Mastery: (1/1/1 AP) While wearing light armor you gain 2/4/6 to maximum dexterity bonus of your armor. (This also affects maximum dodge.) You also gain 1/2/3 Physical Resistance Rating.

Sev~

Spinning Staff Wall: (2 AP) Active: Activate to gain 50 Physical Resistance Rating for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 90 seconds. Passive: While wearing light or cloth armor gain 5% Dodge, 5% Maximum Dodge, and 5 Maximum Dexterity Bonus for Light Armor.

Sev~

[CThruTheEgo]

...a solid assessment of the proposed changes within the current state of the game...

Well said brzytki.

The same issues keep being brought up Sev. In this revamp, assassins are still missing an increase in their damage and damage mitigation.

Make light armor mastery grant 5/10/15 PRR and give us more debuff options like the melee power debuff from poisons.

Slap 5 or 10 melee power in the capstone and let stacks of measure the foe fade 1 at a time every 6 seconds. I think letting measure the foe fade 1 stack at a time is a great idea because it will create a condition that encourages assassins to be in sneak mode more often, and with the changes to sneak speed that will be a practical possibility. As mentioned, an alternative way to increase dps would be to make it affected by 200% melee power (even 300% wouldn't be too much imo when you consider the dps of a bard or paladin). Others have proposed allowing sneak attack damage to be crittable. I haven't done the math on that, so I don't know if that would be too much or not, but again, considering that my first life paladin with hand me down gear was critting for several thousand, I'm not sure there is a "too much."

These changes would not turn assassins into another easy button but would minimize the amount they currently lag behind other revamped classes. The unique playstyle of an assassin would not change and they would be a lot more fun for those who enjoy that playstyle, which you said was the main priority with these changes.

[Fedora1]

Again I'd like to reiterate one thing I think SHOULD be an assassin ability that might compensate if all the requests for dodge and PRR/MRR don't happen.

Give assassins either an innate ability (based on level) or enhancement chain that gives them:

1. The ability to remain stealthed when attacking (% chance after each attack or perhaps automatically remain stealthed with a stacking % chance of it being broken for each successful attack).
2. A permanent agro-reduction buff based on level or based perhaps a 2% reduction for every point spent in assassin tree or whatever).

[amsharkwei]

Core Abilitie 5:Shunpo
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 30 Requires: Nimbleness, Level 18 Rogue

Shunpo:Meld into shadow,teleport you at the back of your target immediately.(Cooldown: 15 second)(Range:30ft)
-This ability does not break sneak
-Can only actived while in Light or Cloth armor
-After useing shunpo,you gain 100% double strike chance for 2 sesond
-After useing shunpo,you gain 100% dodge for 2 second
-After useing shunpo,you gain full movement speed for 2 second

[brzytki]

Core Abilitie 5:Shunpo
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 30 Requires: Nimbleness, Level 18 Rogue

Shunpo:Meld into shadow,teleport you at the back of your target immediately.(Cooldown: 15 second)(Range:30ft)
-This ability does not break sneak
-Can only actived while in Light or Cloth armor
-After useing shunpo,you gain 100% double strike chance for 2 sesond
-After useing shunpo,you gain 100% dodge for 2 second
-After useing shunpo,you gain full movement speed for 2 second

Shadow step/teleport ability was discussed before MotU went live and Devs said it's not gonna happen for a simple reason - it'll be a magnet for bugs and exploits. If, for example, you'd use it on an enemy near a wall, you might end up on the other side of it, meaning outside of the map.

[dualscissors]

This looks all interesting, but tbh the question that bothers me most about Assassins:
Will Assassinate be fixed so that it works when soloing as well? (Currently it does not)

That would be the most important fix for Assassin in my oppinion

I'm not sure what is being articulated here. How does assassinate not work when soloing? I solo on my assassin frequently.

Are you saying that solo assassins having to wait 15 sec. to use assassinate again isn't doing enough assassinating to move quickly through content?

If the statement is about assassinating triggering auto agro from the room, that has been fixed.

[Saekee]

...I proposed some mitigation to tremor sense be put in.

...

Wraith form from Pale Master shroud and shadowdancer causes one to float. Tremor sense should not detect it. This, though, is a little bug in the stealth mechanics that ought to get adjusted--I would fix it there, not in assassin tree.

Spiders have incredibly sensitive feelers in their skinny legs, and oozes are just nerves and protoplasm pressed pancake-like onto a surface, so I think they should detect fat little crouching halflings, tiptoeing or not.

[Severlin]

Hey, Sev edit OP because you placed Venomed Blades in T1 instead of T2. Also, you said you'll be upping MP in Measure the Foe to 4 per stack and PRR in Light Armor Mastery to 1/3/5, if it's still on the table.

And i have a question, does Light Armor Mastery increase max dodge cap, as in beyond 25%, or is it just a misleading sentence to trick us? I'm looking at the Spinning Staff Wall, where you explicitly stated that it increases max dodge cap and i'm worried all of us assumed LAM does too when it's not the case. If it doesn't, then it's a really bad T5 enhancement.

Thanks. Fixed.

The dodge cap was a design note that didn't get removed when we grabbed the text for the post.

Sev~

[draven1]

Wraith form from Pale Master shroud and shadowdancer causes one to float. Tremor sense should not detect it. This, though, is a little bug in the stealth mechanics that ought to get adjusted--I would fix it there, not in assassin tree.

Spiders have incredibly sensitive feelers in their skinny legs, and oozes are just nerves and protoplasm pressed pancake-like onto a surface, so I think they should detect fat little crouching halflings, tiptoeing or not.

There is a bug in tremor sense.
If a rogue is in sneak & the other members aren't in sneak and walking in front of that rogue, spiders will ALWAYS be aggroed on that rogue, not on the other members of group.

Why spiders always be aggroed by the sneak guy even there are many other party members who aren't in sneak & are moving(making big noise & tremor) and nearer than the sneak guy.
It's really strange, because it seems non-sneaky running makes lessor tremor than sneaky walk.

I can understand this situation if the sneaky guy was at the front.
But, there were many party members at the front and they made lots of noise & tremor.
How can spiders just always ignore that huge near tremor, but how can spiders always sense very little tremor on far sneaky one?

[Severlin]

~ Added 10 Melee Power to the final core to help it compete with some of the other DPS capstones.

~ Added explicit Maximum Dodge to Light Armor Mastery.

Sev~

[brzytki]

The dodge cap was a design note that didn't get removed when we grabbed the text for the post.

Sev~

Wow, really wow...

So you initially thought that +6 MDB and 3 PRR was worth not only 3 APs but also a spot as a T5 enhancement?!

I shouldn't be surprised anymore...

[dualscissors]

Wow, really wow...

So you initially thought that +6 MDB and 3 PRR was worth not only 3 APs but also a spot as a T5 enhancement?!

I shouldn't be surprised anymore...

Well, they're listening to good points made by rogue players here and are making some tweaks. That they miss some things on the first couple go rounds is understandable when dealing with any fairly complex system of moving parts.

[Thar]

Well, they're listening to good points made by rogue players here and are making some tweaks. That they miss some things on the first couple go rounds is understandable when dealing with any fairly complex system of moving parts.

Hopefully Ranger gets the same love ... and soon...

[Severlin]

Wow, really wow...

So you initially thought that +6 MDB and 3 PRR was worth not only 3 APs but also a spot as a T5 enhancement?!

I shouldn't be surprised anymore...

If players are uncomfortable seeing enhancement passes during the raw inception phase and would rather us present to them a more polished version much later in the design cycle then we can also do that.

Sev~

[dunklezhan]

I felt a disturbance in The Force.

I find your lack of faith... disturbing

Sev~

*chokes*

Oh dear.

[CThruTheEgo]

~ Added 10 Melee Power to the final core to help it compete with some of the other DPS capstones.

Good stuff. Thanks for listening Sev. Now can we get rid of the +2 dex and change it to +4 int. No pure assassin goes dex based. The only reason to stay pure is to use assassinate, which is an int based ability, so dex is useless for a pure assassin.

~ Added explicit Maximum Dodge to Light Armor Mastery.

How about increasing the PRR to 5/10/15 to improve damage mitigation by a small amount? This is still one of the central problems that needs fixing.

[Wizza]

Good stuff. Thanks for listening Sev. Now can we get rid of the +2 dex and change it to +4 int. No pure assassin goes dex based. The only reason to stay pure is to use assassinate, which is an int based ability, so dex is useless for a pure assassin.


How about increasing the PRR to 5/10/15 to improve damage mitigation by a small amount? This is still one of the central problems that needs fixing.

What this guy said. Make this happen and I'll be mostly (not fully) satisfied with the changes.