Rogue - Assassin Changes

[BigErkyKid]

Sev kept saying that sneak attack deals "massive damage". However, how does a pure rogue compare in DPS even while sneaking with a pure barb raged? Or with a paladin? I suspect that SA is not as massive as it looks like, give the weapons those rogues are restricted to and their lack of melee power enhancements.

Add a lot more SA dice or let it crit (or go in the inside the damage numbers that are multiplied when they crit) and then I think "massive" might be a good adjective for the DPS of SA.

[Fedora1]

Sev kept saying that sneak attack deals "massive damage". However, how does a pure rogue compare in DPS even while sneaking with a pure barb raged? Or with a paladin? I suspect that SA is not as massive as it looks like, give the weapons those rogues are restricted to and their lack of melee power enhancements.

My Shadar-Kai pure assassin never had any trouble keeping up with dps/kills using the Shadar-Kai daggers (Risk/Reward) and then switched to Sacrificial Dagger and Blade of the HIgh Priestess which he used up to 28.

That was before the Pally/Barb pass, so he might not lead the kill count anymore, but it's still respectable. I thnk he had like 25d6 SA? And with deception/imp deception he was getting SA most of the time in partys since something else usually had agro.

[dualscissors]

I think a better way to go for assassins would be enhancements that further reduce their threat/agro and the ability to remain stealthed after attacks. Mabye abilities that mimic blur/displacement rather than extra dodge? This would make assassins more of the "never seen/never heard" killers that they should be, not the fancy parkour style of acrobats.

Still I'm not against what the devs have proposed, just trying to think of out of the box ideas with all the dodge disussions happening.

Newer toons might not have enough displacement clickies to have this up much of the time. More seasoned toons will already have blur on all the time and substantial displacement resources.

Agro management is definitely good. Soloing, though, agro shedding isn't an option since the mobs don't have a second target choice. More deception procs would allow sneaking and keep some of the heat off of your rogue, though.

[Severlin]

Still catching up on the thread but...

~ Based on player feedback bumped the PRR for Light Armor Mastery to 2/4/6.

~ We wanted a little more burst out of stealth so we bumped the Melee Power granted by Measure the Foe to 4 per stack.

~ Assassinate is already a fairly good ability so we won't be buffing the DC in this tree, but instead we will be looking to have items that add to the DC in greater amounts that currently possible in the next few updates.

Other stuff:

~ If we have time we will tweak the Bluff skill to have a longer duration and maybe an animation that doesn't have the rogue standing there pointing for like 3 seconds. I agree the current skill is really bad; at this point it's a matter of time since we are already working weekends to make up for all the snow days we had this winter.

~ We spent some time looking at TWF animations as well but I don't want to derail this thread.

Sev~

[Nascoe]

Still catching up on the thread but...

~ Based on player feedback bumped the PRR for Light Armor Mastery to 2/4/6.

~ We wanted a little more burst out of stealth so we bumped the Melee Power granted by Measure the Foe to 4 per stack.

~ Assassinate is already a fairly good ability so we won't be buffing the DC in this tree, but instead we will be looking to have items that add to the DC in greater amounts that currently possible in the next few updates.

Other stuff:

~ If we have time we will tweak the Bluff skill to have a longer duration and maybe an animation that doesn't have the rogue standing there pointing for like 3 seconds. I agree the current skill is really bad; at this point it's a matter of time since we are already working weekends to make up for all the snow days we had this winter.

~ We spent some time looking at TWF animations as well but I don't want to derail this thread.

Sev~

OK, nice to see you understand the sentiment that 3 PRR isn't much of an improvement. Its still not a great amount, but at least its a bit better now

I like the idea of bringing in more items to boost assasin DCs, when reading some of the comments, I had the same thought that this could help a bit. And it at least gives some purpose to the loot in the next updates apart from just making us even stronger over the board (still need more good bucklers, light shields, a few medium armors actually worth wearing though).

I understand that you don't have the resources to get into stealth, but it would be good if some of the things mentioned above by various posters would get looked into, because some (the archers being able to hit/almost hit you from huge range when in stealth for example) seem like they are now working properly.

Good to see you picked up the TWF issue (I'd expect you to get to that one in the future as you promised to adress ranger and druid wolf builds later in the year), it will help rogues as well.

[redoubt]

Still catching up on the thread but...

~ Based on player feedback bumped the PRR for Light Armor Mastery to 2/4/6.

Thanks again for staying active with the feedback.

Could you specify which things affect affect the 25% dodge cap? I ask because there are many ways to increase the max dodge bonus or armor, but few that increase it past the 25% cap. It will be easier to provide feedback if we knew for sure how the abilities affected the 25% cap. For example, nimbleness in core three is really good if it does increase the dodge cap. If it does not increase the dodge cap, then for many builds, it may as well not be there (because these builds will already be sitting at max dodge.)

~ We wanted a little more burst out of stealth so we bumped the Melee Power granted by Measure the Foe to 4 per stack.

Ok.

~ Assassinate is already a fairly good ability so we won't be buffing the DC in this tree, but instead we will be looking to have items that add to the DC in greater amounts that currently possible in the next few updates.

This is a biggie. Many of us have been asking for this for a while now. Thank you. Nothing crazy, but maybe a couple extra points and a few new options for itemization. Maybe a stacking augment...

Other stuff:

~ If we have time we will tweak the Bluff skill to have a longer duration and maybe an animation that doesn't have the rogue standing there pointing for like 3 seconds. I agree the current skill is really bad; at this point it's a matter of time since we are already working weekends to make up for all the snow days we had this winter.

~ We spent some time looking at TWF animations as well but I don't want to derail this thread.

Sev~

Glad to hear you guys are looking into TWF.

Thanks again.

[Severlin]

Could you specify which things affect affect the 25% dodge cap? I ask because there are many ways to increase the max dodge bonus or armor, but few that increase it past the 25% cap. It will be easier to provide feedback if we knew for sure how the abilities affected the 25% cap. For example, nimbleness in core three is really good if it does increase the dodge cap. If it does not increase the dodge cap, then for many builds, it may as well not be there (because these builds will already be sitting at max dodge.)

Bonuses to Maximum Dodge increase the cap beyond 25%.

Bonuses to Dodge don't increase the cap beyond (25% + Maximum Dodge)

Bonuses to the Maximum Dexterity Bonus for armor don't increase the cap beyond (25% + Maximum Dodge)

Sev~

[Blackheartox]

Sev is measure the foe gving only melle power or ranged as well?

[Wizza]

Still catching up on the thread but...

~ Based on player feedback bumped the PRR for Light Armor Mastery to 2/4/6.

~ We wanted a little more burst out of stealth so we bumped the Melee Power granted by Measure the Foe to 4 per stack.

~ Assassinate is already a fairly good ability so we won't be buffing the DC in this tree, but instead we will be looking to have items that add to the DC in greater amounts that currently possible in the next few updates.

Other stuff:

~ If we have time we will tweak the Bluff skill to have a longer duration and maybe an animation that doesn't have the rogue standing there pointing for like 3 seconds. I agree the current skill is really bad; at this point it's a matter of time since we are already working weekends to make up for all the snow days we had this winter.

~ We spent some time looking at TWF animations as well but I don't want to derail this thread.

Sev~

We are starting to get somewhere. I really would like some numbers on the Max Dodge that Assassins in SD can achieve as I can't at the moment. I think the +4 Reflex save from the Capston should be another +4 to Max Dodge or just Dodge or more Sneak attack. I wouldn't mind having Shadow Mastery HERE instead of Shadowdancer, maybe with some increased chances. That +4 Reflex is just..bad. Something like:

Shadow Mastery: Passive Bonus: You now have Evasion. In addition, when you CRIT (not a natural 20 like there is in SD) on a melee or ranged attack, you envelop the target in shadow, granting it 10% vulnerability to physical damage and removing its immunity to sneak attack for a short duration, if applicable debuff lasts 15 seconds [1]).


I would also like an answer to this:

Why did you move the sneak speed into the Assassin tree? We need points into TA tree to get Haste boost and that was the best choice. What are we going to get now to get Haste boost? +3 to Quarterstaff to-hit?

[ddorimble]

Any chance Killer stacks could expire one-at-a-time like other Enhancements instead of all at once? Or is that a purposeful limitation?

[redoubt]

Bonuses to Maximum Dodge increase the cap beyond 25%.

Bonuses to Dodge don't increase the cap beyond (25% + Maximum Dodge)

Bonuses to the Maximum Dexterity Bonus for armor don't increase the cap beyond (25% + Maximum Dodge)

Sev~

Thank you. I will use this specific verbiage as I read now.

Follow up question: Is it your intent that a pure rogue has a cap of 25%? I ask because I do not see anything within the rogue trees that increases Maximum Dodge. A player could choose Halfling for +3 and the guild buff for +2 and get a cap of 30%, but those are the only options I have found so far.

I would still like to request that Nimbleness, from the Assassin core, increase Maximum Dodge while its stacks are active. Thank you for adding this to Measure the Foe.

[Wizza]

Any chance Killer stacks could expire one-at-a-time like other Enhancements instead of all at once? Or is that a purposeful limitation?

And THIS. PLEASE.

[Severlin]

Thank you. I will use this specific verbiage as I read now.

Follow up question: Is it your intent that a pure rogue has a cap of 25%? I ask because I do not see anything within the rogue trees that increases Maximum Dodge. A player could choose Halfling for +3 and the guild buff for +2 and get a cap of 30%, but those are the only options I have found so far.

I would still like to request that Nimbleness, from the Assassin core, increase Maximum Dodge while its stacks are active. Thank you for adding this to Measure the Foe.

Assassin's Measure the Foe would increase Maximum Dodge by 10 at full stacks for 10 seconds.

Thief-Acrobat will get +6 to Maximum Dodge from three cores, and Momentum Defense can add up to 10 more for a total of 16.

Nimbleness would add too much if it increased Max Dodge; Measure the Foe and Momentum Defense lock out tier 5's from other trees.

Sev~

[Severlin]

Any chance Killer stacks could expire one-at-a-time like other Enhancements instead of all at once? Or is that a purposeful limitation?

Purposeful.

Sev~

[redoubt]

I would also like an answer to this:

Its not everything, but I found this in the Acrobat thread of the Official Turbine Discussions:

Tier One

Sly Flourish: Bonus weapon damage increased to 1/2/3[W]. Rather than having the attack reduce threat, the enhancement comes with a passive ability that reduces the threat of all attacks by 5/10/15%. Cooldown reduced to 8 seconds.

Faster Sneaking: Removed (bonus moved to the Assassin tree)

Fast Movement: You now move 10% faster. This does not stack with Fast Movement from Barbarian or Monk.

Sev~

So some fast movement is there to take if you are interested in speed.

I had originally thought that my assassin would be completely out of the TA tree (which would save me some AP), but now I'm going to try to fit:
- Sly Flourish 3 (for threat reduction)
- fast movement (need to keep up with the group)
- sublety3 from T2

If I find myself close to 10 points spent I may try to get:
Tumbler: You also gain +2 to maximum Dodge.

Overall, I am liking the reorganization of assassin and the bits I understand about TA.

[Wizza]

Purposeful.

Sev~

Why? What's the point? It's a very bad skill when the stack falls at once, it's very hard to build it as well. Literally every single other ability in the game acts in that way, why not Killer?

[redoubt]

Assassin's Measure the Foe would increase Maximum Dodge by 10 at full stacks for 10 seconds.~

I'm with you. Takes an assassin at 25% dodge up to 35% dodge for 10 seconds.

Thief-Acrobat will get +6 to Maximum Dodge from three cores, and Momentum Defense can add up to 10 more for a total of 16.~

I've starting reading that thread this morning. Good stuff. I'm jealous some of it isn't in Assassin.

Nimbleness would add too much if it increased Max Dodge; Measure the Foe and Momentum Defense lock out tier 5's from other trees.

Sev~

No issue with the lock out. That's pretty standard.

Could you comment on how you see Nimbleness being used going forward?

I ask because I find getting to the 25% dodge cap to be easy enough. In the past I've even dropped dodge and used the "semi-permanent" dodge from shadow charges to get myself back up to cap. Because nimbleness does drop out, I don't see myself building a character to sit at 15% dodge with the intent of having nimbleness take me up to 25%. I see a distinct difference between nimbleness and the SD shadow charges as I can hold the shadow charges as long as I don't shrine.

[Wizza]

Its not everything, but I found this in the Acrobat thread of the Official Turbine Discussions:



So some fast movement is there to take if you are interested in speed.

I had originally thought that my assassin would be completely out of the TA tree (which would save me some AP), but now I'm going to try to fit:
- Sly Flourish 3 (for threat reduction)
- fast movement (need to keep up with the group)
- sublety3 from T2

If I find myself close to 10 points spent I may try to get:
Tumbler: You also gain +2 to maximum Dodge.

Overall, I am liking the reorganization of assassin and the bits I understand about TA.

I'll be sneaking most of the times. It doesn't work while sneaking > my assassin does not care about Faster Movement.

[Ovrad]

Bonuses to Maximum Dodge increase the cap beyond 25%.

Bonuses to Dodge don't increase the cap beyond (25% + Maximum Dodge)

Bonuses to the Maximum Dexterity Bonus for armor don't increase the cap beyond (25% + Maximum Dodge)

Sev~

If we build a toon specifically focused on dodge, the best we can hit is about 30%, and that's in lv 20+.

Meanwhile, a level 1 fighter that puts on pants has more than 30% damage mitigation from free PRR.

I wish this was balanced better...

[IronClan]

I'll be sneaking most of the times. It doesn't work while sneaking > my assassin does not care about Faster Movement.

Why wouldn't it? Every other speed boost makes base sneak speed faster.