Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Myrrddyn333]

My thoughts in red above. Key point is that 'Poisoned' needs to land if the rest of the key changes are to work - DC of 10+1/2rogue+Int will be on a decent assassin - 10+10+25(ie. 60Int) - so 45 - that doesn't pass muster from Gianthold on up.

Other than that I like asssassin in the first place so not too many quibles.

Personally, after playing a rogue/Assassin for 6 yrs, the cooldown for Assassinate is fine. It got lengthened once already, from 10 secs to 15 secs. Assassinate is fine the way it is. For now....

[Full_Bleed]

Many of these changes are quite welcome. Glad to see this work being done.

But rather than parse what's been discussed many times in this thread I'd like to mention something that thematically bugs me about assassins...

I'm not sure why they aren't the best at killing helpless targets. Nothing should be more natural to an assassin than that.

Lethality offers some acknowledgment of that assertion, but some core bonuses to helpless damage or more "lethal" crits against helpless would be fitting.

[redoubt]

Many of these changes are quite welcome. Glad to see this work being done.

But rather than parse what's been discussed many times in this thread I'd like to mention something that thematically bugs me about assassins...

I'm not sure why they aren't the best at killing helpless targets. Nothing should be more natural to an assassin than that.

Lethality offers some acknowledgment of that assertion, but some core bonuses to helpless damage or more "lethal" crits against helpless would be fitting.

That is an interesting thought.

We used to have auto-crits on held mobs. Maybe something similar could be brought back for assassins. At the same time, it could not be wide open. Nothing that would make taking X levels of rogue the new FOTM. When we had auto-crits I made maiming rocksplitters for my casters and even my cleric. Held mobs were dead mobs.

Not much is different today with held mobs though. A held mob is still a dead mob.

My first pass at an implementation of your idea would be to put it in "Knife Spec".

Knife Specialization: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with daggers and kukris. Daggers also gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range.

OPTION 1:
ADD: You automatically crit on helpless mobs when using a dagger or kukri.
- this is likely the highest damage option.

OPTION 2:
ADD: +2 range/+1 multiplier on helpless mobs when using a dagger or kukri.
- this is likely the #2 damage option. It will produce slightly higher max crits, but significantly less often.

OPTION 3:
ADD: you do 2x sneak attack damage to helpless mobs when using a dagger or kukri.
- this is likely the lowest damage option. It also plays on the sneak attack concept which is very much a "rogue thing" flavor wise.

How to keep it balanced?
1. Assassins have poor crowd control and little means to produce a helpless state. It would need to stay that way, or narrow the range of states the auto-crit would apply too.
2. It has to stay the knives. Opening this up to other weapons would be too powerful and would set up a 5 rogue FOTM. People have complained that "knife spec" is too weak. This could be ONE way to boost it.
3. Heavy analysis of the actual math BEFORE going forward at all.
4. Knives have poor base damage and crit profile.
5. Any additional damage does not get to "double dip" with the +50% helpless damage already in the game. i.e. if you are getting auto-crits, you don't get auto-crits AND then 50% more on top of that.

Again, this is just an initial pass at an idea. I'm intrigued by the concept of assassins being "the best at killing helpless targets." This is brainstorming.

[nibel]

• It is supposed to be possible to shake off pursuit if one is able to retain sneak but that does not work *
• Monsters that hear you inerrantly follow your path when sneaking

* This does not work for me, ever. I assume it is bugged. But maybe I am just inadequately skilled.

I have shaken off pursuits in my rogue all the time. The key is having a very, very, VERY high Hide/MS skills, and breaking line of sight.

The trick to break pursuit is: First, break line of sight. This can be made as easy as Invisibility (if the mob don't have See Invisibility/TS), or as situational as turning a corner or jumping down/up a ledge. As soon as you are out of sight, hit stealth, and move away. The mobs will come to the last place they saw you, and then start swinging, then start searching, then give up, and stop or return to their patrol posts.

If you just jump out of melee range and hit sneak midair, and walk away, MOST of the time, the mobs are in the autospot range, and it will not work. Breaking line of sight first always work.

If the monster has found you because it saw you (and not because you went too close of it to autospot), it got enough bonus on their spot skill to surpass your Hide skill, thus it will always see you in stealth. No, they never lose their bonus to spot (as seen by the +eyes over their head when you are stealthed and in line of sight).

The monster following the sound of your steps is because their inherent Listen skill is better then your Move Silently skill. Get a MS switch item, and you will probably make them stop while searching because they stop listening to you (There is no mechanic to give bonus to listen).

Stealth have many problems in mechanics and concept, but this is not one of them.

[dualscissors]

Many of these changes are quite welcome. Glad to see this work being done.

But rather than parse what's been discussed many times in this thread I'd like to mention something that thematically bugs me about assassins...

I'm not sure why they aren't the best at killing helpless targets. Nothing should be more natural to an assassin than that.

Lethality offers some acknowledgment of that assertion, but some core bonuses to helpless damage or more "lethal" crits against helpless would be fitting.

Regarding "Lethality," the problem with these high level powers (lvl 18) that do the vorpal thing is it's potent in heroic content.

In EH or EE vorpaling a target for 100 damage - a paltry 100 because they all have well over 1000 HPs - might make one wish you could skip the core AP expenditure because it's so irrelevant.

[Mryal]

Few ideas, all seem easy to make:

Assassinate : Change DC to 13 + Rogue Level + Epic Levels + Int.Change from Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack to just requiring Sneak attack.If used on stealth no agro is generated and stealth remains.Removing the stealth requirement would allow it to be used on raids and groups, wich is what people want.Allowing it to generate no agro while on stealth would allow it to function properly when sneaking trought quests.Of course some stated that 'wow its op this way you can just solo a quest by assassinating' well yes, you can.But that will take at least 3 times longer than using a barb cleaving everything.

Measure the Foe : The bonus to assassinate DC can then be removed as its DC is beign buffed, the whole mechanic that severlin posted doesnt makes sense to many (including me) so i propose this:
After 3 seconds while sneaking, you gain Measure the Foe : Your next attack is considered an automatic critical hit roll and bypasses 100% enemy fort.On vorpal the target is killed(no save).

This encourages people to use sneak while in groups.And finnaly, replace Light Armor Maestry (possibly add some of its benefits to capstone and such) with:
Vanish: Activate to immediatly enter stealth and drop all agro you may have, for the next 8 seconds the penality to movement speed while sneaking is removed.Cooldown : 1 minute (can be adjusted).

Lethality: Since the core is weak theres room for another thing here, and i suggested it beign to enable rogues to assassinate constructs, rogues are skilled with traps and mechanic devices regardless of actualy beign a mechanic rogue or not.

[Grace_ana]

I agree with those who would prefer a dodge bonus to PRR.

The problem is that rogues pretty easily reach their dodge cap, and the cap is simply not high enough to give adequate defense in high level content. More sources of dodge are completely redundant and useless. And while I understand the sentiment behind "deadly but squishy," there is no such thing, because soulstones do no DPS. The idea that a melee build should have weak defenses is what keeps rogues behind.

However, if you really wanted to make rogues masters of dodge and have an excellent tier 5 enhancement, you could make it simply remove the dodge cap. Then rogues can stack enough dodge to matter in difficult content. It's ultimately self-limiting, because you have to make trade-offs for it - do I want that feat or the DPS feat? Do I want that item or a trapping item? Every class should and does have to make choices regarding their gear and build, balancing DPS, survivability, and utility. I would like to see a truly reasonable and valid balance available to rogues.

[redoubt]

The problem is that rogues pretty easily reach their dodge cap, and the cap is simply not high enough to give adequate defense in high level content. More sources of dodge are completely redundant and useless. And while I understand the sentiment behind "deadly but squishy," there is no such thing, because soulstones do no DPS. The idea that a melee build should have weak defenses is what keeps rogues behind.

However, if you really wanted to make rogues masters of dodge and have an excellent tier 5 enhancement, you could make it simply remove the dodge cap. Then rogues can stack enough dodge to matter in difficult content. It's ultimately self-limiting, because you have to make trade-offs for it - do I want that feat or the DPS feat? Do I want that item or a trapping item? Every class should and does have to make choices regarding their gear and build, balancing DPS, survivability, and utility. I would like to see a truly reasonable and valid balance available to rogues.

All the sources of temp dodge need to increase the dodge cap while they are active.

So if you have a 25 dodge cap and are at 25 dodge, THEN you get more dodge from nimbleness your dodge actually goes up. In this case as much as 10 points for a total of 35. Same for measure the foe, so it grants another temp 10 dodge (that goes away after 30 seconds) for a total of 45.

It would be nice if:
Untouchable: Passive Bonus: Gain 1% extra dodge for each Shadow Charge you hold.
in Shadow Dancer also increased max dodge by the number of Shadow Charges you hold.

I think with those minor changes, assassins would be the masters of dodge.

[Grace_ana]

All the sources of temp dodge need to increase the dodge cap while they are active.

So if you have a 25 dodge cap and are at 25 dodge, THEN you get more dodge from nimbleness your dodge actually goes up. In this case as much as 10 points for a total of 35. Same for measure the foe, so it grants another temp 10 dodge (that goes away after 30 seconds) for a total of 45.

It would be nice if:
Untouchable: Passive Bonus: Gain 1% extra dodge for each Shadow Charge you hold.
in Shadow Dancer also increased max dodge by the number of Shadow Charges you hold.

I think with those minor changes, assassins would be the masters of dodge.

Except temp dodge doesn't do you much good when it only takes one or two hits to take you down and you don't have time to build up the temp dodge. If rogues are going to be masters of dodge, why shouldn't an assassin fully invested up to tier five be able to use as much dodge as they can get instead of being restricted? It would be an ability in keeping with the nature of assassins and help their survivability enough to let them stand toe to toe with other classes.

Temp stats are not reliable. They also contribute to lag, btw, because of the constant recalculations. I'll pass on overloading temp stats.

[dualscissors]

Except temp dodge doesn't do you much good when it only takes one or two hits to take you down and you don't have time to build up the temp dodge. If rogues are going to be masters of dodge...

I think getting a *substantial* bonus to both Dodge % and Dodge Cap (not just a token 3-4 pts.) will go a long ways toward survivability combined with increased bluff/turn-around perks that were mentioned, plus Incorporeality, Displacement and close-to-okay-PRR. Those stack for a pretty hefty miss chance.

Yeah, I know it would be nice if there were a better self heal option that scrolls or status-busting Silver Flame pots and granted rogues won't handle a Disintegrate blast to the face as well as a high PRR/MRR class...

If you simply need to land a few hits to get that temporary dodge up to 35%+ (if it is set at that bar), that seems to me to be a substantial boon to miss-chancing enough of those big nasty hits. On norm/hard we can handle the damage. While we might enjoy the ease of shield/heavy armor level survivability, I don't think that is the design goal. (It also may be that pally survivability is just silly and the Devs don't want to replicate that.)

[redoubt]

Except temp dodge doesn't do you much good when it only takes one or two hits to take you down and you don't have time to build up the temp dodge. If rogues are going to be masters of dodge, why shouldn't an assassin fully invested up to tier five be able to use as much dodge as they can get instead of being restricted? It would be an ability in keeping with the nature of assassins and help their survivability enough to let them stand toe to toe with other classes.

Temp stats are not reliable. They also contribute to lag, btw, because of the constant recalculations. I'll pass on overloading temp stats.

The shadow dancer dodge is built up and then stays until you shrine.

The new version of nimbleness will only take 10 sneak attacks to get to max. This is a very quick build up.

Measure the foe is less helpful, but would provide short term gains.

I don't know how/if this would affect lag issues.

I'm all about boosting assassins some. Just trying to brainstorm with you.

[Powerhungry]

Here is the first draft of potential changes to the Assassin tree.

Making assassin changes without addressing the OP bard changes...
Knife specialization - tier 5 ability - 30AP + 2 for the ability = 32 points AP plus 5 rogue levels and 12 character levels
Swashbuckling - core ability - 5AP + 1 for the ability = 6 AP plus 3 bard levels
both give the same +1 threat range +1 crit multiplier but bard has SIGNIFICANTLY lower requirements
An assassin should be the best at killing helpless/unaware targets but currently a bard is (Coup de Grace is OP compared to assassinate).
Only being able to assassinate while stealthed means you get one shot if you're lucky (archers and AoEs break stealth).
A Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned enemy is easy to achieve multiple times in a battle. Bard's fascinate DCs are 100+ in epics so only enemies immune won't be affected. In a party with a CC wizard it's laughable comparing a bard instakilling vs a rogue assassinating.
Add +10 assassinate DC to the capstone.
Remove the stealth requirement and allow it to work on any target Coup de Grace works on.
If stealthed while assassinating, add another +10 DC. Yes capstone 10 + stealth 10 is +20. Even on a maxed out assassinate build it's still lower than a poorly built bard's Coup de Grace DC).

[Pehtis]

Here is the first draft of potential changes to the Assassin tree.


Core Abilities:

Assassin's Trick: This now works on all enemies and no longer has a saving throw. Targets now lose 25% Fortification and their Sneak Attack immunity.

Nimbleness: Nimbleness no longer requires sneak attacks and works on any hit.

Deadly Shadow: You gain +2 Dexterity and +2 Intelligence. You gain +4 Sneak Attack dice. You gain +4 to Reflex saving throws.


Tier One

Poison Strikes: (Opponents struck by these attacks have an "Assassin's Mark" for 10 seconds.)

Shiv no longer reduces threat when you attack. It instead offers an additional passive component that reduces threat of all your attacks by 5/10/15%. The attack portion now also makes a Bluff check using your Bluff skill.

Stealthy: You also gain +20%/+35%/+50% movement while sneaking.


Tier Two

(As a reminder, Venomed Blades now scales with 200% Melee Power.)

Bleed Them Out: The bleed damage scales with 200% Melee Power.

Damage Boost: Cost reduced to 1 AP per level. Changed to boost Melee Power by 10/20/30.


Tier Three

Critical Accuracy is removed.

Critical Mastery: (1/1/1 AP) + 1/2/3 bonus to critical damage and to confirm critical hits


Tier Four

Critical Damage is removed.

Weakness Poison: Your attacks against enemies with an Assassin's Mark (from Poisoned Strikes) reduce the Melee Power and Ranged Power of the opponent by 10 for 10 seconds.

Execute: Melee Assassinate attack: +3[W] damage. If target is below 30% health, deal 500 damage. This damage scales with 200% Melee Power. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)


Tier Five

Measure the Foe: Gain +2 Melee Power, +2 Dodge, +2 Maximum Dodge, +1 to hit and +1 to the DCs of your Assassinate ability for every 4/2/1 seconds you remain stealthed. This effect stacks up to 5 times and lasts for 10 seconds after you come out of stealth.

Deadly Poison: Your attacks against enemies with an Assassin's Mark (from Poisoned Strikes) do +5 damage.

Light Armor Mastery: (1/1/1 AP) While wearing light armor you gain 2/4/6 to maximum dexterity bonus of your armor. (This also affects maximum dodge.) You also gain 1/2/3 Physical Resistance Rating.

Sev~

My suggested change to Assassin Tree enhancement is as follows:

The problem with rogues in general is their lack of survivability. Happy to be squishier than other classes as long as there were some options to survive in higher level content. This is where dodge comes in. Dodge begins to become less relevant in high level content due to not surviving the hits you receive.

My proposal is a simple one. Add the dodge number to PRR/MRR of any class that has EVASION as part of their core CAPSTONE. Therefore it is only available to light armour/robe wearers. The increase is no where near game breaking and is simply a useful tweak during level 20+ content. This will also provide an extra incentive for any pure builds. It's a balanced approach without making them overpowered.

My thought behind this proposal is since I am in the process of dodging anything, the hit I DO receive should be like a serious grazing hit (just a flesh wound ). Limiting this kind of damage mitigation to those classes with Evasion keeps it balanced. Hence Assassins would benefit.

Many splash builds will complain it should be much lower of course. I will leave that to the Dev's to decide, if they like the idea enough to implement. Rangers (oh I so want this on my tempest), Monks, and some Bards will also find this useful if included in their trees as well.

[Dramentia]

There should be in my opinion a permanent improved deception. A paralyzing effect. poison stat damage should be a toggle for each stat. and faster sneaking. I can insta kill on my monk or bard better than I can my assassin. The DC's really need increased. Or done away with on all but bosses.

[Nascoe]

snip

Yeah, I know it would be nice if there were a better self heal option that scrolls or status-busting Silver Flame pots and granted rogues won't handle a Disintegrate blast to the face as well as a high PRR/MRR class...

snip

Sorry to jump in there (and I might be wrong/misinformed) but neither PRR nor MRR helps anyone much against spells like Disintegrate (typed FORCE) anyway. PRR helps with physical damage and MRR all of acid, sonic, fire, electric, cold, alignment, light, positive, negative, poison, and rust, but not with FORCE. And Disintegrate has a fort. save so the reflex component of wearing a shield with MRR isn't going to help them either.

Sure heavy armor wearers might have a better fort. save than the average rogue can achieve, but that is something a bit different.

Now I do think the idea discussed - having enhancements /dodge boosts more often raise the dodge cap - as that would make dodge more of a boon for higher lvl characters who run into caps does have some merit and I would like it if the devs had a look at how /what to do for it.

[Grace_ana]

I subscribe to the KISS method. You can have lots of temporary dodge, and have it raise the cap temporarily, but it has to be substantial and proc immediately or it's useless....or, you can skip the rigamarole and just make the tier 5 enhancement remove the dodge cap. The second suggestion is simple and skips the lagfest while everything recalculates during melee. If what you're saying is that the dodge would have to kick in during a battle right away, then why not just make it permanent? Is there some OP exploit by having high dodge at a rest shrine or something?

Dodge items don't even stack anymore, and lots of the dodge enhancements don't stack anymore either. So there's only so much an assassin (especially a pure rogue like most are) can get. It just makes sense to stop playing proc games with survivability.

[Fedora1]

King of Dodge belongs to Acrobats, not Assassins IMO.

Assassins are masters of stealth and one-shot kills, not standing toe-to-toe with fighters, paladins, and barbarians in prolonged combat and killing tons of trash mobs.

I'm not trying to take away anything from the proposed changes, but theme-wise I don't know where this master-of-dodge for an assassin came from. Good at it, sure. Master? Not the way I see it.

[Vyrzain]

King of Dodge belongs to Acrobats, not Assassins IMO.

Assassins are masters of stealth and one-shot kills, not standing toe-to-toe with fighters, paladins, and barbarians in prolonged combat and killing tons of trash mobs.

I'm not trying to take away anything from the proposed changes, but theme-wise I don't know where this master-of-dodge for an assassin came from. Good at it, sure. Master? Not the way I see it.

/agree

[dualscissors]

The Acrobat should be even dodgier, which isn't to say that the Assassin isn't super dodgy too. They have to be if they are going to stay alive since they strike out in all of the other survivability areas.

Acrobat's also get a big improvement in their tree for the rogue special ability, Defensive Roll.

[Fedora1]

I think a better way to go for assassins would be enhancements that further reduce their threat/agro and the ability to remain stealthed after attacks. Mabye abilities that mimic blur/displacement rather than extra dodge? This would make assassins more of the "never seen/never heard" killers that they should be, not the fancy parkour style of acrobats.

Still I'm not against what the devs have proposed, just trying to think of out of the box ideas with all the dodge disussions happening.