Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Thrudh]

If you want to fix rogues, ALL of these four points are important. Not just changing some enhancements and call it a day. That's not fixing, that's band-aiding.

Gotta start somewhere... Need to fix four things... He's fixing one of the four, and has stated he will look at the other 3 things in the future... Is that a positive step or a negative step?

I'd like to see Rogues be master of Dodge... and it looks like we are moving that way...

[Blackheartox]

You know Wizza, you're not known as the most positive poster on these boards... but still, you managed to get a dev to answer your direct questions MULTIPLE times in this thread, yet you just keep throwing insults his way.

Do you really think this is the way to get the results you want?

Has this method EVER worked for you, in real life, or on these boards?

In that specific case, you do need to give him credit.
He might had used sarcasm a bit to much, but he was still correct with what he wrote.

[Thrudh]

In that specific case, you do need to give him credit.
He might had used sarcasm a bit to much, but he was still correct with what he wrote.

I wasn't addressing if he was right or not... Sev is probably the most direct-dealing dev we've ever had... Being a jerk to him, no matter how right you are, is just immature and, frankly, stupid.

And it affects all of us...

[Taurnish]

Sap and Hamstring are excellent feats for a rogue (especially an assassin type). Both could have an enhancement tier 1 or 2 that would increase the likelihood and/or duration of the produced effect. As mentioned, the rogue is a feat starved class; therefore, the ability for a rogue (say min level 6) to pick these up as free feats would not be game breaking and would allow a few more attack options. The assassin tree could get these at level 6 while the mechanic and thief acrobat would have to wait till level 9 to pick them up. Multiclasses could then pick up the feat benefits but only with a significant investment of levels. Similar to dipping ranger for tempest benefits.

[Ycal_Mot]

Does anyone else think the iconic characters look like the lead singer in Dead or Alive? They should have a dungeon where the kobolds are signing Right round baby waving flags.

[oradafu]

Sap and Hamstring are excellent feats for a rogue (especially an assassin type). Both could have an enhancement tier 1 or 2 that would increase the likelihood and/or duration of the produced effect. As mentioned, the rogue is a feat starved class; therefore, the ability for a rogue (say min level 6) to pick these up as free feats would not be game breaking and would allow a few more attack options. The assassin tree could get these at level 6 while the mechanic and thief acrobat would have to wait till level 9 to pick them up. Multiclasses could then pick up the feat benefits but only with a significant investment of levels. Similar to dipping ranger for tempest benefits.

If these feats are going to be given to all Rogues for free, I see no reason on why Assassins get access to them earlier than Acrobats and Mechanics. If players are multiclassing for non-flavor builds, they will be heading straight for the tree that doesn't require a particular weapon when it comes to spending AP, which happens to be the Assassin tree.

[Grace_ana]

Light Armor Mastery: (1/1/1 AP) While wearing light armor you gain 2/4/6 to maximum dexterity bonus of your armor. (This also affects maximum dodge.) You also gain 1/2/3 Physical Resistance Rating.

Sev~

This is a really weak tier 5 ability. PRR is the one thing rogues are really hurting for. But 3 PRR? It's practically useless. For reference other enhancements that offer PRR:

Battle Engineer: 5 PRR at core 3, another 5 PRR at core 5.
Frenzied Bezerker: 10 PRR at core 3
Eldritch Knight: 10 PRR at tier 2
Pale Master: 10 PRR at tier 2
Ravager: 3 PRR at tier 1
Sacred Defender and Stalwart Defender: 10 PRR at core 2, 15 PRR at tier 1
Sacred Defender: An additional 25 PRR plus other stuff at tier 5 -------> this is a tier 5 ability to compare to
Tempest: 10 PRR at tier 2
Warchanter: 6 PRR at tier 1, 6 PRR at tier 3
Shintao: 15 PRR at tier 2, another 10 PRR plus other stuff at tier 5 -------->compare this also to what you are suggesting for an equivalent tier
Warpriest: 10 PRR at tier 2

If you are trying to keep this stuff all in line, you can see that the others are more or less comparable, and what you are proposing is a really weak ability. It's weak even as a tier 1 enhancement, let alone a tier 5. I'd strongly suggest you boost that PRR up a whole lot. It's not overpowered given that rogues generally have very very few sources of PRR.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

We changed the animation. It's now slicing motion that take less than a second instead of the three second point animation. Looks pretty good in combat. We also cut the cooldown to 6 seconds and changed the duration to 15 seconds so an assassin can keep it up on two targets.

Sev~

Sev,
I recommend you edit your OP Assassin's Trick line to state this in a summarized way, such as "(Duration changed to 15 seconds, cooldown reduced to 6 seconds, and animation changed to shorten time)"

[oradafu]

This is a really weak tier 5 ability. PRR is the one thing rogues are really hurting for. But 3 PRR? It's practically useless. For reference other enhancements that offer PRR:

Battle Engineer: 5 PRR at core 3, another 5 PRR at core 5.
Frenzied Bezerker: 10 PRR at core 3
Eldritch Knight: 10 PRR at tier 2
Pale Master: 10 PRR at tier 2
Ravager: 3 PRR at tier 1
Sacred Defender and Stalwart Defender: 10 PRR at core 2, 15 PRR at tier 1
Sacred Defender: An additional 25 PRR plus other stuff at tier 5 -------> this is a tier 5 ability to compare to
Tempest: 10 PRR at tier 2
Warchanter: 6 PRR at tier 1, 6 PRR at tier 3
Shintao: 15 PRR at tier 2, another 10 PRR plus other stuff at tier 5 -------->compare this also to what you are suggesting for an equivalent tier
Warpriest: 10 PRR at tier 2

If you are trying to keep this stuff all in line, you can see that the others are more or less comparable, and what you are proposing is a really weak ability. It's weak even as a tier 1 enhancement, let alone a tier 5. I'd strongly suggest you boost that PRR up a whole lot. It's not overpowered given that rogues generally have very very few sources of PRR.

Just to add to this, PRR is based on the type of armor and BAB. This ability appears to be limited to Light armor, which only gets 1/2 BAB +2. As for Rogue's BAB, only get .75 BAB per level. So unless they are pausing every minute or so to scroll a Tenser, they aren't maximizing the PRR that's achievable to everything you listed.

[Grace_ana]

Just to add to this, PRR is based on the type of armor and BAB. This ability appears to be limited to Light armor, which only gets 1/2 BAB +2. As for Rogue's BAB, only get .75 BAB per level. So unless they are pausing every minute or so to scroll a Tenser, they aren't maximizing the PRR that's achievable to everything you listed.

Which leaves rogues further and further behind and makes balancing melee damage from monsters really problematic on the development side of things. High dodge is great and I use it lots. But it's only going to be at best effective around a third of the time. If a rogue gets splattered the rest of the time because there are no PRR options aside from multiple lives, that's not so much fun.

I don't mind rogues being squishier than other classes. I do think that the tier abilities should be relatively equivalent in power, and that "squishy" shouldn't mean "you're going to be the loot sacrifice for sure."

My main is an assassin, and I've invested a lot into her. She's a completionist with lots of good gear, and I've been playing her pretty much forever. She has excellent DPS and doesn't generally die more than the rest of the party, because all I have invested in her have shored up other weak spots. That being said, it's blatantly obvious when I play her that her serious weakness is PRR, and there just aren't enough sources for it for her. I don't think assassins should be handed 25 PRR for heroic enhancements or anything, but 3 PRR is just pitiful. For tier 5, no less.

[draven1]

Light Armor Mastery: (1/1/1 AP) While wearing light armor you gain 2/4/6 to maximum dexterity bonus of your armor. (This also affects maximum dodge.) You also gain 1/2/3 Physical Resistance Rating.

I think PPR boost on assassin is not bad, but also not proper.
I would rather see more OMG button, shorten cool-time of it much, higher dodge cap, more dodge things, and MORE INCREDIBLE DEADLY DPS.

And rogues already have good source of damage reduction for emergency.

"Defensive roll" & "Cheat Death" Buff it.

Squishy, but DEADLY & Nimble. It's an assassin!

Light Armor Mastery: (1/1/1 AP) While wearing light armor you gain 2/4/6 to maximum dexterity bonus of your armor(This also affects maximum dodge.) & gain 1/2/3% dodge. You also gain 3/6/10% double strike & movement speed & chance to bypass sneak attack immunity.

Dont forget even HEAVY ARMORED DEFENDERS WITH HUGE TOWER SHIELD have 10% movement speed enhancement & shield charges(like wings).
Why don't swift light armor toons have it? Why those defenders are FAR MORE FASTER than fluffy light armor toons?

Why high defense profile toons also have higher & far more easier DPS(non situational better crit profile & AOE cleave & ever-lasting blitz & 200+ PRR/MRR) than low defense profile toons?

There is no reason besides flavor to play low defense profile classes now.
This is why every group has so many heavy armored pally/barb/bards with LD or DC now.
They also have higher HP, saves, more PRR by defender enhancement that doesn't really need to be true defender(without shield).
This is completely wrong balanced.

[Xionanx]

You know the problem I see with giving EVERYONE PRR? If everyone has it why not just get rid of it entirely and make monsters do less damage?

I few ?weeks? ago there was a thread I posted an idea about changing how PRR works so AC/Dodge/DR/Etc all balanace out better then it currently does.. but meh, no one cares enough to look it up.

The way I see it, the "idea" behind PRR is that the "tanky" guys in their heavy plate need to be up front getting aggro and then soaking up the damage. The "Cost" they should be paying is that they do moderate DPS for the benefit of being really hard to kill.

On the flip side, the guys in light or no armor with little to no PRR should be doing HIGH damage IE the "Cost" of doing high damage is when they get hit.. they get HIT HARD.

The problem however, is that currently some of your highest DPS builds also have some of the highest PRR and MRR.. this is NO downside to being tanky other then being accused of being a "FTOM Build".

So why not implement a DIFFERENT bonus to LIGHT ARMOR.. follow along, as this would benefit ALL classess not just rogues.
MP = Melee Power SP = Spell Power (universal) RP = Ranged Power

Heavy Armor +0 MP/SP/RP
Medium Armor +15MP/+0SP/+5RP
Light Armor +30MP/+15SP/+20RP
Robe/Outfit +30MP/+30SP/+30RP

Number are just examples but you get the idea. The more PRR/MRR the armor gives, the less MP/SP/RP the armor gives and vice versa.. so the be the "highest DPS" you wear a robe and deal with taking big hits.. to be the best tank you wear heavy armor but do less damage.

[Qezuzu]

I don't think Assassinate's DC should be bumped up very much but what about changing its DC formula to more easily accommodate multi-classes? You can't splash much, if at all, in other classes without neutering your Assassinate DC. Even 18/2 loses 3 DC.

What about changing it to 10+INT mod+[APs spent in Assassin tree / 2]? You could cap it to +20 (40 AP). It would have the same cap, it wouldn't change things for pure Assassins who are going to be spending 40 AP anyway, but it would mean Assassin-based multiclasses can actually, you know, exist.

[flaggson]

The sap idea is brilliant

[SealedInSong]

Assassinate gets a +4 DC raid item, +6 from EDs and +5 from Measure the Foe. +15.

Stunning fist gets +3 from Grandmaster of Flowers, +6 Legendary tactics, like +15 from normal stunning item, then possible +6 from insightful combat mastery(can replace with whatever half of your int modifier can be if you go harper), +3 from possible dwarf, bladeforged or warforged, +3 from kensei, +3 fighter past lives and then +3 from vanguard. +42 and I probably forgot something.

So after you drop 5 points off from stunning fist because it only gets half character level bonus the total difference in DC boosts is 22 points in favor of stunning fist. Also debuffing for stunning fist is simpler as you won't lose +5 DC from Measure the Foe if you use for example twf improved sunder for usually -6 fortitude save. On d20 system 22 DC difference is insane. There can be places where Stunning Fist only fails when foe rolls a 20 and Assassinate only works if foe rolls a 1. Assassinate is more final solution than a stun so I could understand why it would have a bit lower DC but if difference is close to 20 points it is too much. And now there are special attacks with even more DC than stunning fist that could have been used in this comparison instead. Coup de Grace for example.

I didnt add racial stat bonuses into calculations to keep it a bit simpler. There is drow race with +4 total int and WF and BF get -2 wis. I might have also forgotten some things in favor of one of these abilities.

In my opinion the issue is that there are attacks with great itemization and enhancement support and then there are things like Assassinate, Shadow Dagger, Thunderstone, Time Bomb, Ooze Flask, Tanglefoot and some Henshin Mystic attacks with little or no support to push their DCs to point where they would be meaningful abilities. It is a pity because I like these. They just aren't usable because DCs can't be boosted enough in game.

The fact is that the formula for assassinate, as others have illustrated but not necessarily as clearly as above, forces all assassins to go down one path with almost no variation.

That's not good for the game, and it's one of the reasons the prestige is hardly relevant in current endgame. Without a change to the formula, it will stay irrelevant.

(Also, I'd be incredibly tickled to see things like Thunderstone and Cauldron of Fire actually usable. They're awesome theory abilities and laughable in implementation.)

[draven1]

Can we get infinite thieves tool as a unique item?

Or just more stackable tools over 50 in a slot? Maybe up to 1000 like spell components?

This will make rogues happy

[IronClan]

Shadowdancer needs a pass but it's not required to improve rogues, seeing as you can, you know, use Dreadnought or Crusader like every other melee.

Have you run an assassin that's giving up 6 INT and 25% incorporeal to have better melee DPS? If you're going to be in LD you might as well make him a Staff build and add 6 monk (or just reduce your rogue levels to a 5) like everyone else does.

I am disappointed they wont improve Shadowdancer, they said the same thing about Fatesinger when they did the Bard pass and of course it's still not been touched. This is one of those things, if you can't get a Rogue Enhancement/Destiny ability improved RIGHT NOW, a bug or broken feature looked at, or bad mechanic tweaked right now, it's not going to get attention later.

[oradafu]

Can we get infinite thieves tool as a unique item?

Or just more stackable tools over 50 in a slot? Maybe up to 1000 like spell components?

This will make rogues happy

Yes! A bit off topic, but...

I've been asking for an infinite Epic thieves tool, since Update 6 when the old Epic item system still reigned. My suggestion was that the Tools would be Exclusive +6 or +7 enhancement and with a finite number of uses that recharge over time (ala Eternal Wands). That way Thieves tools wouldn't lose their value completely since trappers would need to carry them in quests with a real high number of traps.

But yes, anything to help cut down some of the clutter in inventory for trapping. Whether it's bigger stacks or being able to combine stacks. Or Eternal Tools! Heck, Arcane Archers don't need really to carry arrows anymore nor Arties need to carry bolts and they have Quivers to hold some of their excess ammo.

Also off the subject of the Assassin tree, but still Rogue related, I don't know why there isn't an ability available to Rogues in the Mechanic tree that contains a x% chance of preventing tools from being used (similar to the rod usage via the Past Life: Student of Artifice). This is completely a fluff ability that would cause any true unbalance between Rogues and Artificers.

[Chaios]

Assassin's Trick: This now works on all enemies and no longer has a saving throw. Targets now lose 25% Fortification and their Sneak Attack immunity.

As powerful as that change is, I'm with those who prefer it more or less like the original, just quicker.

Nimbleness: Nimbleness no longer requires sneak attacks and works on any hit.

basically gives +10 dodge whenever a rogue is in combat for more than 10 hits? Someone said they wanted rogues to be the masters of dodge or something like, well, that looks something like it... but will it allow a characters Nimbleness-modified dodge to exceed the dodge cap?

Shiv no longer reduces threat when you attack. It instead offers an additional passive component that reduces threat of all your attacks by 5/10/15%. The attack portion now also makes a Bluff check using your Bluff skill.
Poison Strikes: (Opponents struck by these attacks have an "Assassin's Mark" for 10 seconds.)

I would rather not have threat reduction attached to this because 1)I often use it to help shed aggro 2)I often use intimidate+cleave to obtain aggro. For me aggro management is a balancing act and I don't always want to minimize threat. In fact, as much as I like the idea of Shiv being changed to allow a pure-rogue access to a Bluff attack, I'd almost be willing to trade it for a rogue Intimidate-attack.
I like poison strikes as individual attacks rather than as set of stances, so please ignore anyone who says they would prefer them as stances...

Bleed Them Out: The bleed damage scales with 200% Melee Power.

Maybe Bleed Them Out could be an Intimidate attack Or maybe a Poison Strike could be added that inflicts an Intimidated effect...

Weakness Poison: Your attacks against enemies with an Assassin's Mark (from Poisoned Strikes) reduce the Melee Power and Ranged Power of the opponent by 10 for 10 seconds.

Does this apply to all enemies under the effect of Assassin's Mark, or just the ones Marked by the attacking character?

Deadly Poison: Your attacks against enemies with an Assassin's Mark (from Poisoned Strikes) do +5 damage.

If this effect applies to enemies under the effect of another party member's Assassin's Mark, will the Damage bonus stack if the target is under multiple Assassin's Marks?

Light Armor Mastery: (1/1/1 AP) While wearing light armor you gain 2/4/6 to maximum dexterity bonus of your armor. (This also affects maximum dodge.) You also gain 1/2/3 Physical Resistance Rating.

I agree with those who would prefer a dodge bonus to PRR.

I was thinking about some things posted regarding giving rogues innate spell-like-abilities for various things.The Shadow Dart ability has always annoyed me because it does this. When I use shadow dart (which of course I do) I "roleplay" that I'm throwing quicklime in my opponents eyes because that is what I think a rogue would do: A rogue would use preparation and trickery to do what other classes rely on divine intervention or infernal pacts to deliver. I am for giving rogues traps and bombs that emulate spell like abilities, like maybe a trap that dispels True Seeing in a given radius, things in this line. Also, I would change Shadow Dart to Quicklime and make it do less damage but dispel True Seeing and any other "sensing" type effects in addition to blinding the target for a period of time.

Thanks!

[oradafu]

Have you run an assassin that's giving up 6 INT and 25% incorporeal to have better melee DPS? If you're going to be in LD you might as well make him a Staff build and add 6 monk (or just reduce your rogue levels to a 5) like everyone else does.

I am disappointed they wont improve Shadowdancer, they said the same thing about Fatesinger when they did the Bard pass and of course it's still not been touched. This is one of those things, if you can't get a Rogue Enhancement/Destiny ability improved RIGHT NOW, a bug or broken feature looked at, or bad mechanic tweaked right now, it's not going to get attention later.

Well, the Devs did say outright when the EDs were made that Shadowdancer was built almost exclusively for Assassins and Pale Masters in mind. When people brought up the lack of goodies in there for Acrobats and Mechanics, they told us that the LD was where they planned the majority of Acrobats to stay exclusively and directed Mechanics, Arties and bow Rangers to Shiradi Champion.

And since ranged Arties (which still make up the majority of the class) still have to unlock 3 un-useful EDs to get the ED that the Devs planned for them to use, it doesn't look like ED tweaks (big or small) are happening since each sphere now has 3 EDs.