Rogue - Assassin Changes

[slarden]

Yes it is. That's why human is a beast when it comes to burst DPS.

Yeah that would make human the best int-assassin dps for 100 seconds if LD Damage boost is also twisted in then and both boosts were used at the same time. It's hard to believe that would be working as intended.

For a quest like EE Temple of Elemental Evil I am not sure I would build around 100 seconds of amazing burst damage though. Three is alot of fighting between shrines.

[brzytki]

Yeah that would make human the best int-assassin dps for 100 seconds if LD Damage boost is also twisted in then and both boosts were used at the same time. It's hard to believe that would be working as intended.

For a quest like EE Temple of Elemental Evil I am not sure I would build around 100 seconds of amazing burst damage though. Three is alot of fighting between shrines.

To be honest I'm not using the combo on regular trash mobs often and I have +3 uses twisted. I also rarely shrine in quests as I don't feel the need to unless i'm low on the boosts. Even then I can just swap in my T3 dagger with recharge in the off-hand every 2-3 minutes for a boost and it's really enough.

[Ayseifn]

I use a 30% damage boost from LD as a drow (actually sun elf but same for this comparison). Is the 20% human damage boost on a different timer?

You can stack racial and class based boosts, ED boosts AFAIK still count as class boosts so still on the same timer as class ones.

[slarden]

To be honest I'm not using the combo on regular trash mobs often and I have +3 uses twisted. I also rarely shrine in quests as I don't feel the need to unless i'm low on the boosts. Even then I can just swap in my T3 dagger with recharge in the off-hand every 2-3 minutes for a boost and it's really enough.

Yeah that would be an important twist when using that combo. I've considered using the twist myself without the combo, but figuring out what to give up is a challenge.

[slarden]

You can stack racial and class based boosts, ED boosts AFAIK still count as class boosts so still on the same timer as class ones.

Yeah that's definitely some great burst dps effectively turning the 20% action boost into a 26% action boost for those 100 seconds (160 with a twist) by stacking the benefits of the 30% action boost.

I will be going with a dex-based halfling assassin over the extra burst dps. The double bonus makes for great screen shots and video clips, but I don't want to build for a 100 sec burst.

[BigErkyKid]

Yeah that's definitely some great burst dps effectively turning the 20% action boost into a 26% action boost for those 100 seconds (160 with a twist) by stacking the benefits of the 30% action boost.

I will be going with a dex-based halfling assassin over the extra burst dps. The double bonus makes for great screen shots and video clips, but I don't want to build for a 100 sec burst.

Well, truth is that those 100 secs you say make the hell of a difference.

Most quests only have a few bottlenecks were you need to fight, so the boosts speed them up a lot if you know the quest well.

[CThruTheEgo]

If what we have seen is what we are getting then I am very Disappointed. Not a happy customer.

Sev did say that there wasn't time to preview these changes on Lam, so it was expected that these were the changes we were getting, and it was a pretty safe bet that the update was happening this week. Last minute announcements are Turbine's style.

When it was announced Rog would be next up for a revamp I was quite excited at the prospect of some new life being given to them. But they still have basically the worst self heals in the game (not that I'm saying that is a bad thing for that point at least), they still have very poor defences, and their dmg is now average as opposed to poor.

I think you're severely underestimating 150% melee power to sneak attack damage and +1 crit multiplier. It should make up for the poor self healing and defenses. With 107 melee power and 29d6+17 sneak attack damage, I'll be doing an average of 368 sneak attack damage per hit, on a twf. That's just sneak attack damage, not counting any base damage which will also go up. That's not average damage.

And you changed it from where you could be both flavourful and good to flavourful or good (and noone try and tell me Int is more powerful than before because it is, but why would you go with a build that is weaker in every department for any reason except flavour?) and if the game difficult increases then the flavour option will nolonger be something you can play in EE. So you can be Dex or go home.

I don't understand all this talk about killing the flavor of the assassin. Assassins can just as likely be dex based as int based. Now if they were changing it to wis or cha based, then I'd be happy to grab a pitchfork with you. But dex based is definitely within the realm of flavor. Maybe it's not the specific flavor you like, but the flavor of the class has not been destroyed. I would also prefer to stay int based, but I don't feel like I'm lying to myself by pretending that my assassin is an agile killer instead of a cunning one. And please don't try to defend why they should be int based. I've skipped over the vast majority of the dex vs int flavor posts because they are irrelevant since both are reasonable.

I agree that some degree of balance should have been sought by Turbine, but that's Turbine's MO. They don't really do balance and never have. So I'm not surprised. And besides, Sev has stated several reasons why they think int is balanced with dex, so there's your answer to your questions from an earlier post – they think it is balanced. We know it is not and we know their reasoning is severely flawed, but we aren't making the decisions.

[CThruTheEgo]

Yeah that would make human the best int-assassin dps for 100 seconds if LD Damage boost is also twisted in then and both boosts were used at the same time. It's hard to believe that would be working as intended.

It is WAI. It has always been this way and is one of the most significant advantages of human. AFAIK, human damage boost does not stack with class based damage boost. You can activate human damage boost with class damage boost, but they won't actually stack. ED action boosts are considered class based action boosts. In other words, you cannot activate multiple class based action boosts at the same time. Activating one will put all the others on cooldown. But humans can use human damage boost simultaneously with haste or melee power boost.

[slarden]

I want to thank Executive Producer Severlin and the entire development team for the hard work and great outcome on Assassin. While it will take a while to level up my character as a dex-based assassin to test everything from the patch, it's safe to say assassins are significantly improved and more fun to play now after this patch.

While I would have preferred that int assassins received some balance adjustments, the addition of dex to assassinate opens up many new build possibilities especially with regards to survivability.

I especially appreciate all the communication during this process and hope that continues.

Great job!

[dualscissors]

With the freed up feat I am trying to figure out the best way to use it.

I was looking at improved feint which is most likely not worth 2 feats, but I was wondering if anyone has any experience using it. Is the animation slow? is an 83 bluff enough in higher level EE content?

Despite hearing bad things about the feat, I opted to use it for a heroic life at the end of 2013. Having an AoE bluff effect seemed useful for soloing and getting sneak attack. After running a whole life with Improved Feint, I don't see room for reasonable disagreement: it's bad.

The AoE bluff isn't bad but the slowness of the animation (one one thousand, two one thousand, and a half) leaves you hanging far too long. What's more if you move or attack before the end of the animation, you will break the Improved Feint effect, i.e. you will have spent seconds standing around but not long enough to trigger the bluff effect.

The lack of practicality on top of buying the prereq. feat Combat Expertise makes Improved Feint a problematic ability to use as well as feat-expensive. I had some hope that the animation for Improved Feint would get reduced with the update like Assassin's Trick did. A localized turn-around effect on several close mobs would be deemed a useful CC method for some rogues, even at the 2 feat cost.

I have not read any notes that anything has changed with this feat since the end of 2013.

[slarden]

Despite hearing bad things about the feat, I opted to use it for a heroic life at the end of 2013. Having an AoE bluff effect seemed useful for soloing and getting sneak attack. After running a whole life with Improved Feint, I don't see room for reasonable disagreement: it's bad.

The AoE bluff isn't bad but the slowness of the animation (one one thousand, two one thousand, and a half) leaves you hanging far too long. What's more if you move or attack before the end of the animation, you will break the Improved Feint effect, i.e. you will have spent seconds standing around but not long enough to trigger the bluff effect.

The lack of practicality on top of buying the prereq. feat Combat Expertise makes Improved Feint a problematic ability to use as well as feat-expensive. I had some hope that the animation for Improved Feint would get reduced with the update like Assassin's Trick did. A localized turn-around effect on several close mobs would be deemed a useful CC method for some rogues, even at the 2 feat cost.

I have not read any notes that anything has changed with this feat since the end of 2013.

Thank you it sounds like a non-starter and something that isn't used and therefore unlikely to get dev attention. The 2 feat requirement alone is bad enough.

[psykopeta]

Thank you it sounds like a non-starter and something that isn't used and therefore unlikely to get dev attention. The 2 feat requirement alone is bad enough.

for soloing is great for 2 reasons:
- less players, less scaling, you can survive til the animation is done, it's like cleaving with improved deception weapon+gearpiece
- i used it as acrobat, and with 2 cleaves (because iirc you won't have time for a 3rd) with SA kills all the stuff

so the rotation would be:
- improved feint
- 2 cleaves
- run away with cocoon (i did it right before the enhancement pass, so no prr)
- improved feint
- lay waste?momentum swing? whichever is the aoe + great cleave

at that point everything would be dead

however don't forget it, you gotta see your hp dropping while using improved feint

you also can ignore it, cause iirc you couldn't fit all feats (i used something called... "circus" build, 13 rogue 6 monk 1 druid, was funny tho)

[Chaios]

With the freed up feat I am trying to figure out the best way to use it.

I was looking at improved feint which is most likely not worth 2 feats, but I was wondering if anyone has any experience using it. Is the animation slow? is an 83 bluff enough in higher level EE content?

This is what I can tell you about Improved Feint

1)Improved Feint is an attack and as far as I've experienced, that attack happens with no more delay than any other special attack. Maybe the people who write concerning IFs unusable delay are writing about Bluff, which does have a long animation delay and while it isn't good in combat, it requires no feats and is great for pulling single targets around corners or away from door ways/switches.

2)If you freed up one feat and are interested in Improved Feint, either you already have Combat Expertise or... well, why are you asking if it may not be worth two feats when you wrote that you had only freed up one feat and wondered if IF would be a decent choice? I ask out of curiosity and a desire for clarity more than out of pique: Do you already have CE or not?
if you already have CE then try IF and see for yourself if you like it. Its 3 days and a sibery's shard to switch out.
if you're trying to decide whether or not getting IF can justify keeping CE, rather than ditching CE and grabbing some other two feat combo... well, what combos, pls
if you're trying to decide whether IF is worth switching out something so that you can get CE also... it depends on how much you're willing to change from something that you know works for you.

the only thing I can tell you is that there is no more delay between activating and landing this attack than with an other, it cycles well other attacks, and if you keep auto attack on it doesn't interrupt the attack sequence any more than any other special attack.

[dualscissors]

the only thing I can tell you is that there is no more delay between activating and landing this attack than with an other, it cycles well other attacks, and if you keep auto attack on it doesn't interrupt the attack sequence any more than any other special attack.

Interesting point about auto-attack. I almost always turn it off and like to click.

With normal Bluff (which does have a long animation if you let it go), you can key Sunder to halt the delay and still get the bluff effect.

With Improved Feint you are stuck watching the entire animation. Anything that you key the same way (as far as I've figured out) will ruin the effect. As does moving or attacking. On an accidentally curtailed and ruined attempt to use Improved Feint, unfortunately, the cooldown will still go on 15 second rotation.

for soloing is great for 2 reasons:
- less players, less scaling, you can survive til the animation is done, it's like cleaving with improved deception weapon+gearpiece

I don't know... I can't say I enjoyed the experience of being stuck standing for 3 seconds while mobs were jumping on me. Sometimes, for sure, you can get the effect off before they are on you; other times I found myself a punching bag. This isn't a problem on Normal, but warning to those using it on higher difficulties.

[slarden]

This is what I can tell you about Improved Feint

1)Improved Feint is an attack and as far as I've experienced, that attack happens with no more delay than any other special attack. Maybe the people who write concerning IFs unusable delay are writing about Bluff, which does have a long animation delay and while it isn't good in combat, it requires no feats and is great for pulling single targets around corners or away from door ways/switches.

2)If you freed up one feat and are interested in Improved Feint, either you already have Combat Expertise or... well, why are you asking if it may not be worth two feats when you wrote that you had only freed up one feat and wondered if IF would be a decent choice? I ask out of curiosity and a desire for clarity more than out of pique: Do you already have CE or not?
if you already have CE then try IF and see for yourself if you like it. Its 3 days and a sibery's shard to switch out.
if you're trying to decide whether or not getting IF can justify keeping CE, rather than ditching CE and grabbing some other two feat combo... well, what combos, pls
if you're trying to decide whether IF is worth switching out something so that you can get CE also... it depends on how much you're willing to change from something that you know works for you.

the only thing I can tell you is that there is no more delay between activating and landing this attack than with an other, it cycles well other attacks, and if you keep auto attack on it doesn't interrupt the attack sequence any more than any other special attack.

This is helpful. I don't currently take CE so I would have to replace another feat with it or go human with it. I want to run about 50 or so EE quests at cap and see how the build does and specifically how much sneak attack damage is going through. I've been wondering if the higher dps could mean more difficulty maintaining sneak damage even with high threat reduction. Improved feint could be a good dps boost if I have trouble maintaining sneak damage with the higher damage output.

I am currently a dex-based halfling assassin and one thing I noticed is that I am getting such massive damage increases from the damage and haste action boosts because my #s are bigger after the rogue pass. At the same time I am noticing no mercy is less beneficial than before because it takes fewer hits to take down an enemy.

Basically my assessment is
- no mercy is less valuable now that dps is higher
- action boosts are more valuable than before
- KTA is less valuable now as it provides a smaller percentage of damage, although obviously any int build will take since they will reach up for int to damage. However, it's 14 damage on a 68 int assassin which is tiny compared to the action boosts - and yes i realize I can take both, but as a priority i think actions boosts are my biggest priority then 3d6 halfling damage, no mercy or KTA. No mercy is awesome, it's just enemies don't last long enough to make good use of it any more. Balanced attacks is still great for the cc effect and 50% damage boost even without no mercy.

So I am contemplating an assassin build taking

- 30% damage boost from LD as a twist
- 30 MP damage boost from Assassin
- 30% Haste boost from Acrobat
- Extra action boost from LD as a twist

27 actions boosts which is 9 minutes of boosts between shrines.

And ideally I would be human to to get the 20% action boost for 3 minutes. I may TR to a human next, but not until I get 50-100 quests in as a halfling. That would allow me to test as a human int build then etr to a dex build for a really good comparison. As an int build i would try to fit in KTA and all the action boosts, but the AP is really tight compared to a dex build so I would have to make much greater sacrifices to do so.

If improved feint can help me get more sneak damage in I would definitely consider it. As a human I gain one feat from insighful reflexes freed up and one extra feat as a human.

Thank you again for the info, it might take a while for me to complete my testing as I am working extra OT at my current assignment through may.

[slarden]

for soloing is great for 2 reasons:
- less players, less scaling, you can survive til the animation is done, it's like cleaving with improved deception weapon+gearpiece
- i used it as acrobat, and with 2 cleaves (because iirc you won't have time for a 3rd) with SA kills all the stuff

so the rotation would be:
- improved feint
- 2 cleaves
- run away with cocoon (i did it right before the enhancement pass, so no prr)
- improved feint
- lay waste?momentum swing? whichever is the aoe + great cleave

at that point everything would be dead

however don't forget it, you gotta see your hp dropping while using improved feint

you also can ignore it, cause iirc you couldn't fit all feats (i used something called... "circus" build, 13 rogue 6 monk 1 druid, was funny tho)

Interesting i can see this would be more useful on an acrobat. Thank you.

[Chaios]

Interesting point about auto-attack. I almost always turn it off and like to click.

With normal Bluff (which does have a long animation if you let it go), you can key Sunder to halt the delay and still get the bluff effect.

With Improved Feint you are stuck watching the entire animation. Anything that you key the same way (as far as I've figured out) will ruin the effect. As does moving or attacking. On an accidentally curtailed and ruined attempt to use Improved Feint, unfortunately, the cooldown will still go on 15 second rotation.

Thanks for the tip on Bluff/Sunder
I just tested IF a little and I see that you're right: taking any action (including auto-attacks) before the "bluffed" icon appears seems to prevent the bluff effect from taking place. The attack and damage happen, but the bluff effect doesn't. ****. At least Shiv seems to work right though.

This being the case, Slarden, I'd say IF isn't likely to help from a dps perspective. It might help if you like using IF-then-sneak to set up an assassination, but thats about it.

Using auto attack is tricky if you like to assassinate, you have to remember to turn it off anytime you go for an assassinate or it will pull you out of stealth. I usually only go into auto-attack when I'm gonna be cycling through special attacks for a while, so I don't lose anything if I hit an attack while its still on cooldown.

[dualscissors]

The description for Light Armor Mastery on the wiki shows a +1/2/3 max dodge (very helpful to have dodge cap lifters since all the added dodge can't be used since the cap is at a relatively low 25%).

However, the description for Light Armor Mastery in the game (hovering over the ability) only says the ability raises Max Dex Bonus and 2/4/6 PRR.

Is this also raising the Dodge Cap +1/2/3?

[redoubt]

The description for Light Armor Mastery on the wiki shows a +1/2/3 max dodge (very helpful to have dodge cap lifters since all the added dodge can't be used since the cap is at a relatively low 25%).

However, the description for Light Armor Mastery in the game (hovering over the ability) only says the ability raises Max Dex Bonus and 2/4/6 PRR.

Is this also raising the Dodge Cap +1/2/3?

I don't mean to offend by going too simplistic, but the wording here is critical, so please bear with me while I try to explain it clearly.

1. Maximum dodge. This starts at 25 and is only raised by things that specifically raise "maximum dodge". This is one of two things that can "cap" dodge.

2. Maximum Dex Bonus. This is unlimited when not wearing armor. When wearing armor it starts at the MDB stated on the armor and is raised by things that say they raise "maximum dex bonus" or "dex bonus" of armor. This is the second thing that can "cap" dodge.

3. Dodge is what you actually have and is limited by the lower of 1 & 2 above.

From the Wiki:
Light Armor Mastery: You gain 1/2/3 to Maximum Dodge. While wearing light armor, gain 2/4/6 to the Maximum Dexterity Bonus of your armor, -2/4/6 armor check penalty, and gain 2/4/6 Physical Resistance Rating.

So, it raises both things that can cap your dodge, but at different amounts.

You might also find this thread helpful:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Dex-assassins

My in game tests and those of another in that thread show LAM to be raises both as expected. (+3 max dodge and +6 MDB.)

[slarden]

Thanks for the tip on Bluff/Sunder
I just tested IF a little and I see that you're right: taking any action (including auto-attacks) before the "bluffed" icon appears seems to prevent the bluff effect from taking place. The attack and damage happen, but the bluff effect doesn't. ****. At least Shiv seems to work right though.

This being the case, Slarden, I'd say IF isn't likely to help from a dps perspective. It might help if you like using IF-then-sneak to set up an assassination, but thats about it.

Using auto attack is tricky if you like to assassinate, you have to remember to turn it off anytime you go for an assassinate or it will pull you out of stealth. I usually only go into auto-attack when I'm gonna be cycling through special attacks for a while, so I don't lose anything if I hit an attack while its still on cooldown.

Yeah, it's too bad this didn't come up sooner, perhaps we could have got some dev attention to fix the animation. I have the room for 2 feats if I go human and even if I didn't I could fit it in. I still think ideally the combat expertise feat requirement should be removed and the animation should be fixed. This would make the feat work as it probably was intended to work.

Right now I am happy with Shiv, but always looking for ways to max my sneak damage - especially with the recent changes.

Thanks to all for the feedback on this. I am currently playing without balanced attack which also guarantees sneak attack damage when it procs on top of the 50% damage boost. I definitely need to bring this back in as a twist.