Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Delacroix21]

I don't know why that would have changed. We can look into it, but that will be a long investigation. (Meaning not for this coming patch.)

Sev~

Thank you for posting and looking into this. This change went largely unnoticed as people had stopped playing rogues about the time this changed, so there was little feedback or testing of this.


I can personally say it does not work, as I have +30% sense weakness, +30% ninja spy, +50% base, and +50% with LD action boost and my sneak attack damage doesn't change.

[gwonbush]

Thank you for posting and looking into this. This change went largely unnoticed as people had stopped playing rogues about the time this changed, so there was little feedback or testing of this.


I can personally say it does not work, as I have +30% sense weakness, +30% ninja spy, +50% base, and +50% with LD action boost and my sneak attack damage doesn't change.

As the screenshot proved, the shown sneak attack damage doesn't change on helplessness. It gets added to the first number instead. Have you tested the changes to the first number on helplessness to see if it is larger than you would expect?

[Humperdink]

That's incorrect. Sneak attack damage might have not been increased on Lama that time but since that update went live it certainly did increase sneak attack damage from helplessness. Here's a thread with some of us testing it: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...37#post3793637

And about your screenshot, it proves you wrong. See how did you get 78 damage on the second hit when on first you have only 31? Maybe because you hit for ~30 + 50% helplessness for base = 45 then add +50% from helplessness from SA (63/2) ~31 and you get around 78 damage.

If I recall this was my Monkcher 12M/6rgr/2art in Fury destiny. I was testing some stuff so I had points in Ninja Spy, which is what I ran in for max helpless damage with Stunning Fist. Helpless=50%, No Mercy=30%, Sense Weakness=30%. I'm not exactly sure how the game engine mathematically sums all those percentages. But if I assume they stack additively (50+30+30) that's 110% above base damage rolled for each hit. Which is a factor of 2.1 (210%) of base damage. Using your example:

~31 base x 1.5 (+50% base) = 46.5
~31 base x 2.1 (+110 base) = 65.1

Now let's take the helpless base damage of 78 and divide by 2.1, 78/2.1 = 37. This is within the range of the previous roll of 31, especially assuming the damage roll was probably something like 7d6 + static damage modifier as an unarmed monk. There's enough variability in the die rolls to explain the difference between 31 and 37 base damage.

I checked your link, unfortunately Imageshack ate your pics.

[maddong]

I think adding dex based assassinate is good in that now there is another build option that benefits from being a dex build besides thrower builds.

Int already is optimal over dex in most other conditions so it is good for build variety.

[VinoeWhines]

I remember when rogues put their points on STR.
Then DEX.
Recently INT.
Now DEX might be where it's at.
Wait till Sentient weapons come out......oh no! back to INT!

[VinoeWhines]

If someone says that a little more dodge is negligible, what dodge are you running with? What difficulty content? When I run EE TOR prior to update, soloing the first part was extremely difficult.
After the update, with a little bit more dodge boost, I had to check the difficulty level just to make sure I didn't select EH because I was surviving longer. So I noticed that a little more dodge goes a long way.

[slarden]

If someone says that a little more dodge is negligible, what dodge are you running with? What difficulty content? When I run EE TOR prior to update, soloing the first part was extremely difficult.
After the update, with a little bit more dodge boost, I had to check the difficulty level just to make sure I didn't select EH because I was surviving longer. So I noticed that a little more dodge goes a long way.

I think his point is that once you factor in displacement, ghostly and AC, each 3 dodge is giving you about a 1% extra chance for an opponent to miss you.

As you say, every little bit helps, but still it is a very small difference.

[Grace_ana]

I think his point is that once you factor in displacement, ghostly and AC, each 3 dodge is giving you about a 1% extra chance for an opponent to miss you.

As you say, every little bit helps, but still it is a very small difference.

That's not really how math works...

[Bobby88888]

So I whipped up a dex build to compare to my Int build assassin:
Not listing feats and a lot more, its all bare bones stuff. Int is Shadar-Kai, Dex is Shadar-Kai
Int:
Str – 29 (9)
Dex – 40 (15)
Con – 40 (15)
Int – 64 (27)
Wis – 30 (10)
Cha – 28 (9)

Assassinate DC: 76 (with MtF)

Enhancements:
41 Assassin
29 Harper
3 Acro
7 anywhere you want



Dex:
Str – 29 (9)
Dex – 72 (31)
Con – 42 (16)
Int – 40 (15)
Wis – 32 (11)
Cha – 28 (9)

Add 4 Dex tensers when needed

Assassinate DC: 80 (with MtF) +2 from tensers

Enhancements:
41 Assassin
29 Acro
10 Harper

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Comparison:
Dex - 6 higher Assassinate DC
Dex - Spare feat
Dex - Higher Reflex save by 4 (and no feat investment for Insightful reflexes)
Dex - Higher Will save by 1
Dex - Higher Fort save by 1
Dex - Slightly higher HP
Int - More skills, though Dex still has 9 starter skills and 1 more from Int tome
Int - Higher Search and disable, though Dex can still do these fine.
Dex - Higher Open lock, Hide and MS, though Int can still do these fine. Sometimes the Higher Hide and MS might have an effect but. Remembering that Hide and MS are the other half of Assassinate DC, Dex only has 1 stat for Assassinate DC while Int has 2.
Dex - Higher MDB, Max Dodge and Dodge
Dex - Higher AC (for what its worth)
Dex - Improved Defensive Roll
Same - PRR and MRR
Int - 6 more damage from KtA.
Dex - at least 3, up to 5 more damage per hit from higher Dex mod. Always on, this cancels out the higher KtA damage.
Dex - Action boost Haste in addition to Action boost MP, while Int only has Action Boost MP.
Dex - No Mercy
Dex - Subtelty for less threat gen.
Int - up to 9 more MP
Int - 20 more Hamp


Since Dex has so much more Assassinate DC can switch to LD and still have the same DC as an Int build but with more survivability, DPS, HP, etc. All at no loss over a Int Build.

Int build Pros: +20 Hamp.
Dex Build Pros: Everything else.


So come on. Tell me Int is still good, tell me they are equal.
Int is the stat of an Assassin flavourwise, yes they need Dex too, that is why Assassinate has a double DC with the 1st being Dex based and the 2nd being Int based.
If you are dead set on putting Dex in I can understand, some ppl want it, but make it balanced with Int, wonder hiow many ppl will want it now :P
Make Int better Assassinate and utility, Dex better Defences and dps. Something like that, obviously utility isnt really useful but so probably go Int better Assassinate, Dex better Defences. If that creates too much imbalance on the assassinate side make Int better DPS and dex better defences.
With the ones not listed in any given pair being as equal as they can possibly be.

If you are going to do it, do it right or not at all please.

[slarden]

That's not really how math works...

If you are looking at just one variable (dodge in this case) that is exactly how it works. Of course dodge provides more value in cases where displacement doesn't work.

[draven1]

So I whipped up a dex build to compare to my Int build assassin:
Not listing feats and a lot more, its all bare bones stuff. Int is Shadar-Kai, Dex is Halfling or Drow, Shadar-Kai could also work but would need changes
Int:
Str – 29 (9)
Dex – 40 (15)
Con – 40 (15)
Int – 64 (27)
Wis – 30 (10)
Cha – 28 (9)

Assassinate DC: 76 (with MtF)

Enhancements:
41 Assassin
29 Harper
3 Acro
7 anywhere you want



Dex:
Str – 29 (9)
Dex – 72 (31)
Con – 42 (16)
Int – 40 (15)
Wis – 32 (11)
Cha – 28 (9)

Add 4 Dex tensers when needed

Assassinate DC: 80 (with MtF) +2 from tensers

Enhancements:
41 Assassin
29 Acro
10 Harper

--

I wonder why do you use Shadar-kai for Int build, Drows can hit 70 or 72 Int, so it's almost tie except +2 from situational Dex.

Int builds also can use any weapon that assassins have proficiency.
Int builds have more damage from KtA, more melee power from harper.
Int builds can utilize Shadow Manipulation & Consume from Shadowdancer better.

Don't forget pure assassins doesn't have way to render mob helpless except balanced attacks from ED. So, it's very limited situational one.

If you think Dex builds will be better, why don't you change your builds to dex? Dex builds will bring some nice things for general assassins. More defensive option. I will make both Dex & Int builds for my alts. Each of them have Pros & Cons.
And I like them

ps> Sev, you did really good job for this revamp

[redoubt]

I think his point is that once you factor in displacement, ghostly and AC, each 3 dodge is giving you about a 1% extra chance for an opponent to miss you.

As you say, every little bit helps, but still it is a very small difference.

Champion mob with fort bypass, true seeing and I hit harder.

displacement = 0
ghostly = .25
AC = .10
dodge = .30
47% chance to get hit

Raise dodge to .35 and you have a 44% chance to get hit.

But take out shadowdancer and your ghostly drops to .10 and you get almost 1 for 1 return on dodge investment. (I hear the cool kids are running in LD instead of SD.)

[Grace_ana]

If you are looking at just one variable (dodge in this case) that is exactly how it works. Of course dodge provides more value in cases where displacement doesn't work.

It's not how it works because that assumption of about 1% difference is simply if you calculate a total miss chance. That's handy for a quick glance, but it's not actually how defenses work. They work more like a series of conditional if-then statements. And if you're talking about the benefits of any part of those defenses, the distinction matters a lot.

Look at it this way. Let's say you have displacement and dodge. Let's also assume that dodge is the last line of defense (I'm pretty sure it is). Displacement will block 50% of the the incoming damage. That means that 50% of the time, the calculations will never reach dodge. In those cases, it doesn't matter if you have 100% dodge or zero dodge. But it would be illogical to argue then that dodge doesn't matter. It matters the other 50% of the time when displacement fails. And when it does fail, how much dodge do you want? The answer, of course, is however much you can get your hands on.

With multiple layers of AC, displacement, ghostly, and dodge, it's the same. Obviously those are good defenses. But damage will always, always get through at least some of them, and the more difficult the content, the more likely that you will be relying more heavily on your last few lines of defense. It isn't a straight calculation; it's how much can you get when the attack reaches that line of defense. As such, it is not a 1% difference, because your other lines of defense have already failed. You're standing only on that one. In that case, there is quite a big difference between 27% and 32% dodge. 5% less likely to be hit at all, in fact. There is an entire epic feat dedicated to exactly that.

It becomes even more important when you consider a lot of EE mobs especially have things like sunder, true seeing, etc. that will brush aside some of your layers of defense. In those cases the other layers become much more important.

Basically, 5% dodge is a lot more than a 1% chance of defense. It's a 5% chance of defense, when the attack reaches it. And it will.

[gwonbush]

In fact, 5% extra dodge will lower the percentage of damage you take by more than 5% if you have more than 0 dodge. Let's say you have 27% dodge and raised it to 32%. This means you went from getting hit 73% of the time to 68% (accounting only dodge calculations, but it is fine to look at it in isolation as shown in the post above). 68 is 93.15% of 73, so this means you are getting hit 6.85% less than before.

[slarden]

If you are going to do it, do it right or not at all please.

I think they've already proven a few things

1) they don't really care
2) they don't really know all that much about playing assassin
3) they compensate for 1 and 2 by starting posts that are blatantly wrong with "According to our tests..."

The answer has already been provided on this matter. The extra skill points an int-assassin gets is too OP so enjoy the extra skill points and all the OP'ness that goes along with it. Maxed out haggle, repair, perform, intimidate, spellcraft and listen is total ownage and don't try and deny it.

Alright, I have no problem if they want to kill int builds and make dex the new assassin stat. I'll roll with the punches, but not until U26 or U27 because I want to get 1 or more warlock lifes and don't feel like a total respec and then a TR to warlock in June and then another full TR to rogue again. It's too much unnecessary re-spec'ing for the 2 months or so until Warlock comes out. I have 0 interest in grinding to re-gear optimally for a dex build.

[Bobby88888]

I wonder why do you use Shadar-kai for Int build, Drows can hit 70 or 72 Int, so it's almost tie except +2 from situational Dex.

Int builds also can use any weapon that assassins have proficiency.
Int builds have more damage from KtA, more melee power from harper.
Int builds can utilize Shadow Manipulation & Consume from Shadowdancer better.

Don't forget pure assassins doesn't have way to render mob helpless except balanced attacks from ED. So, it's very limited situational one.

If you think Dex builds will be better, why don't you change your builds to dex? Dex builds will bring some nice things for general assassins. More defensive option. I will make both Dex & Int builds for my alts. Each of them have Pros & Cons.
And I like them

I used SK because I am playing an Int based SK for flavour reasons and I was comparing my current build do what it would be if I did an LR or ER.
Sure If I made an Int Drow instead my DC would go up by 2, still leaving me 4 behind a Dex build but I would also loose a few more HPs and open that gap further, sure not so big a concern and I have often considered drow for the extra DC but as I said, I am playing SK for flavour, I even put up with the Iconic rubbish and no racial traits for it.

Yes my Int build can use any weapon with Int to Hit and damage but I almost never do, I used to before celestia got bugged but now I never use others.

Yep 6 more damage from KtA, while dex has 3 higher mod for +3 damage always and if u hit a tensers for assassinate DC that is another +2.

I mentioned the MP for Int but a Dex can switch to LD at no cost and gets a lot more MP back

Last I checked Consume was bugged, I check back on it occasionally but always bugged, whenever I use shadow manipulation the group gets annoyed and in solo you simply don't need it. But it is fun to use though remember that costs you another assassinate DC if you do grab shadow manipulation, 2 if you grab consume also. And then Dex has the other insta kill ability in SD if they stayed there (admitably its not the best).

Dex will be undeniably better, except for the most important point. Flavour. That is half the reason I play an assassin, the other half being the unique playstyle. Dex brings a lot of buffs to assassin but it isnt the way it should be done and definitely not at the expense of flavour by making Int a sub par choice. As I said, currently Assassinate has 2 DCs, a Dex and then an Int. That is balanced and means you still don't dump Dex, not to mention you need 21 base + tomes for your feats as well. While Dex based could dump Int completely, I only put 12 Int in that build since lots of ppl were complaining about skills, you can get all you need at 8 Int but with 12 everything is covered.

I am all for buffing Assassins, but if this is how they are going to do it I would prefer they dropped this 2nd pass altogether personally, I know most if not all ppl wouldn't agree with that, but really dropping the Dex from assassinate DC would solve the problem a lot better than dropping the pass. The flavour is very important to me but I also want to be able to play a powerful assassin while keeping within the flavour, Assassin used to be one of the few places where running the build in flavour didn't reduce the power, even if running an assassin vs something else was a big power drop.

I will probably go over to dex eventually when I get sick of being the weakest assassin on my server as opposed to one of the best I had played with which is really sad that playing in flavour on assassin will make you so much weaker than your counterparts, undermining half the reason I started playing assassins.

Although I am very disappointed with the new Lethality too but you can't win em all Still it is an improvement.

[maddong]

Lethality will be changed to only work with one handed weapons.

Sev~

I'm not sure how I feel about Lethality on top of all of the other changes. I would rather have blood strength toned down slightly (maybe a limit to how often it can proc) than bring rogues up to the barbarian level....

[slarden]

It's not how it works because that assumption of about 1% difference is simply if you calculate a total miss chance. That's handy for a quick glance, but it's not actually how defenses work. They work more like a series of conditional if-then statements. And if you're talking about the benefits of any part of those defenses, the distinction matters a lot.

Look at it this way. Let's say you have displacement and dodge. Let's also assume that dodge is the last line of defense (I'm pretty sure it is). Displacement will block 50% of the the incoming damage. That means that 50% of the time, the calculations will never reach dodge. In those cases, it doesn't matter if you have 100% dodge or zero dodge. But it would be illogical to argue then that dodge doesn't matter. It matters the other 50% of the time when displacement fails. And when it does fail, how much dodge do you want? The answer, of course, is however much you can get your hands on.

With multiple layers of AC, displacement, ghostly, and dodge, it's the same. Obviously those are good defenses. But damage will always, always get through at least some of them, and the more difficult the content, the more likely that you will be relying more heavily on your last few lines of defense. It isn't a straight calculation; it's how much can you get when the attack reaches that line of defense. As such, it is not a 1% difference, because your other lines of defense have already failed. You're standing only on that one. In that case, there is quite a big difference between 27% and 32% dodge. 5% less likely to be hit at all, in fact. There is an entire epic feat dedicated to exactly that.

It becomes even more important when you consider a lot of EE mobs especially have things like sunder, true seeing, etc. that will brush aside some of your layers of defense. In those cases the other layers become much more important.

Basically, 5% dodge is a lot more than a 1% chance of defense. It's a 5% chance of defense, when the attack reaches it. And it will.

The bottom line is that the calculation is very simple although there are many things impacting the actual variables

1 - (opponent chance to hit through displacement * opponent chance to hit through AC * opponent chance to hit through ghostly * opponent chance to hit through elusive target * opponent chance to hit through dodge, etc.) = total miss chance

You are focused on the dodge variable and I am focused on the total miss chance.

If you take [change in total miss chance] /[ original total miss chance] it gives you a rough idea of how much less damage you will be taking from the change.

I would look at total change in dodge, total miss chance before/after and % of damage reduction I can expect. Still, a 3% change in dodge doesn't overly excite me much. If it's free I will happily take it.

[Propane]

Not sure if these was already thought of, but..

Lv 18 Core Lethality: add +2 INT
LV 20 Capstone: Add +2 more INT

Should be enough to balance it out (or make Cap +4 more)...

Easy and done-

[Humperdink]

Thank you for this, I DISTINCTLY remember it used to increase sneak attack damage, but then after the melee power update (or around that time) it did not.

Melee power was introduced in U23 which was Sept 2014. I looked through the release notes from U20 on and saw no announced changes. I could of missed the change somewhere. And as always there is the possibility of unannounced or unintentional system changes (as history has shown us.) The closest I have is a screenshot from March 2014. This time I chose a shot with higher base damage and lower sneak attack damage. (BF 16monk/2ftr/2pal) If half of the sneak attack damage was applying to the base number, it wouldn't jump so much. But assuming Helpless+Sense Weakness+No Mercy increases base damage by +110%, it follows the numbers shown. Damage increased 210% total (100+110%) or by a factor of 2.1. Base damage is 84 and 88.

84 x 2.1 = 176
88 x 2.1 = 184

Trying in reverse to confirm theory:

169 / 2.1 = 80 base damage
159 / 2.1 = 75 base damage
147 / 2.1 = 70 base damage

70s and 80s base damage is right in the range of my normal hits. So I'm pretty sure it wasn't applying then, but it could of changed.