Rogue - Assassin Changes

[brzytki]

You can watch my video and see me use the bottle of rum for emergencies. Yes I am aware of the timer. You can search all day for things I don't know about healing, but you are wasting your efforts here. I do have a hard time believing a 6 year veteran has any trouble with resources, but if your opinion is that resource constraints limit your healing options, your are welcome to it. I don't use pot healing, diplomacy, or most of the methods I suggest as options. For me, it's as simple as agro control, cocoon, an occasional rum, and scroll heals (solo mostly). Scrolls are easily replaced, so resources play no role in my healing needs. Yes, I could stand in one spot if scroll heals were quickened. I absolutely hate the play style of LD, so your experiences may differ. They do not invalidate mine.

As a player that currently scroll heals in EE content, I am in a good position to say that quickened scroll heals would reduce the quality of play in this game for me. I would be upset if this were implemented when I know players have options that they are not currently using. (Are you using poison to reduce MP of mobs?) If I can get by without diplomacy, daunting roar, healing pots, threat reduction, escape notice, or meld into darkness (you can choose to twist these), I would imagine an experienced vet such as yourself could do better than me using these additional tools. Agro control trumps all of these.

A simple change in your approach to combat can cut your agro dramatically, regardless of your current play style. I believe trash mobs switch agro every few (6?) seconds. If they start with agro on someone else, you have the DPS to kill them before they attack you. I believe your play choices are causing some of your issues. Other rogues in LD that I have played with are not experiencing your problems. They know how to control how much agro they take for difficult situations, and they have sufficent dps to not worry about most trash mobs.

I don't need to watch your video to understand people using Bottle of Rum for a heal, i've been doing it myself until i got FoM flask. What i pointed out was that you listed "easy" heals to strenghten your argument but used a one with loooong cooldown and shared timer, and Store-bought pots.

I like to play aggresively, not skulking all the time in the back of the group, that's when i can feel i'm contributing more to the party. Because when a rogue only assassinates with a occasional swing here and there, a party would be better off with some other class instead. And there you go assuming things again. I've never said i'm playing in LD. I've never said i'm having agro/healing issues often. Hell, i'm even still wondering whether, if quickened scroll idea went live, i'd make an investment in APs to use it, cause for me cocoon is clearly better and faster and i'd rather have other things from acro/harper trees. I'm not giving advice in this thread solely so that my rogue benefits from the possible changes, i try to look at the problems from less-geared people's perspective too.

Yes, i know most mobs check their threat list every few seconds and switch targets according to it. That's not the point. You can't seem to grasp the fact that you don't only fight 1vs1. Unless you do? If you have only one mob on you that's not a problem. Anyway, it's not solo fights that are tough for rogues, it's bigger fights with archers/cleaving mobs.

I'm still toying with Poisons chain, 6 APs for single target +5 damage and -20 MP with an attack requirement is a rather steep price. Especially, when -20 MP is only really useful in fights with bosses or 1vs1 big hp bags, and depending on how champions are coded it might even be only around 8-10% damage reduction on them.

I'd like to applaud your confidence and/or foolishness when you say that you'd stand in one spot and take a beating while scroll healing in end game content. I know i wouldn't do that.

It's just funny that you admit you are using cocoon and see it as easy button (which i think all agree it is one), but don't see it ruining "your playstyle" (which is jumping out of combat, healing, jumping back) while the very idea of quickened scrolls (which would still require 2 more button presses and more time to execute) makes you shudder.

[Grace_ana]

Such nonsense.

My skill level as an assassin is just fine, tyvm. I don't solo EE because I have no desire to do so - I play with my husband and friends and have more fun that way. I play in shadowdancer when I'm not running up other things for epic past lives. I know how to jump in and out of combat to heal, and generally I do so successfully. I've also sometimes had to step out of dps to save the party with scrolls. I rarely use diplo anymore, especially since it seems wonky as of late, but I know how to use it properly just like any other tool we should know how to use. There are also other rogues out there that are newer and need more help, even for lower difficulties.

However, I am also aware from my own experiences that in high level EE, some of these things flat out don't work. Scroll healing is not reliable with a room full of archers or AOE casters. You can't run away to scroll when you are in a single open room (like MoD) or you're the last one standing in a party. And I can't understand some of the arguments - on the one hand, you say that the proper way to do things is to jump out of combat and scroll, but then when I mention diplo-scroll combos you claim that is ridiculous because it makes you pause in DPS. Last I checked, jumping out of DPS is even more of a DPS reduction, yet you recommend that. Finally, I think it takes a lot of chuzpah to claim that quickened scrolls will ruin rogues when you use cocoon. Come on.

If you don't want to use it, fine. But there is no reason to believe that it is an easy button or will destroy skilled rogues. I recommended making it a rogue feat someone could choose, which means that someone would have to invest at least 10 levels of rogue, UMD, a feat, wand and scroll mastery, and heal amp.

Making it based on concentration affects a lot of other classes and causes all kinds of imbalances. And even that wouldn't require any more skill, just an extra gear item if you don't already have one. If casters can quicken - and certainly you wouldn't argue casters aren't skilled - and devs want rogues to rely on scrolls, then scroll quicken makes sense.

[Full_Bleed]

Theory: Dex assassination is coming.


I would just like to know sooner rather than later so I can respec with an ER.

[Ayseifn]

The problem with no fail scrolls is that it could be really exploitable, it'd be even better than the Bladeforged recon SLA. They stack 100 high, heal for a decent amount and get rid of a lot of bad status effects, right now that's balanced by the fact that you have to pass a concentration roll. Personally I'd prefer if they just healed for more, no real need to quicken them.

I have 9 concentration ATM and don't really have any major issues landing scrolls via jumping out of combat in EE's. Run perpendicular to archers and jump so they miss 99% of the time, use uncanny/meld/cocoon if the first one fails then run around and maybe try again; if I'm actually paying attention to what mobs are in the room maybe use an invis/displace clicky first, or maybe diplo if grouped. Running around isn't all bad either, it's only bad if you have to keep doing it because you also have a chance to reapply short term buffs/boosts before re-entering combat.

[slarden]

The problem with no fail scrolls is that it could be really exploitable, it'd be even better than the Bladeforged recon SLA. They stack 100 high, heal for a decent amount and get rid of a lot of bad status effects, right now that's balanced by the fact that you have to pass a concentration roll. Personally I'd prefer if they just healed for more, no real need to quicken them.

I have 9 concentration ATM and don't really have any major issues landing scrolls via jumping out of combat in EE's. Run perpendicular to archers and jump so they miss 99% of the time, use uncanny/meld/cocoon if the first one fails then run around and maybe try again; if I'm actually paying attention to what mobs are in the room maybe use an invis/displace clicky first, or maybe diplo if grouped. Running around isn't all bad either, it's only bad if you have to keep doing it because you also have a chance to reapply short term buffs/boosts before re-entering combat.

Considering scrolls are lower DC and caster level versions of the same spells casters already cast with quicken I am not seeing how this can possibly be exploited. The bladeforged SLA can already be quickened for 0 extra sp. There is no chance swapping to a scroll and then back will ever be better than a reconstruct SLA.

People can draw their own conclusion whether your description is good self-healing.

[slarden]

Theory: Dex assassination is coming.

I would just like to know sooner rather than later so I can respec with an ER.

I doubt they would bother with it considering the balancing issues, although they could just not bother with balancing at all and make the change. Overall dex is going to be better so it's a proxy buff of sorts.

[Ayseifn]

Considering scrolls are lower DC and caster level versions of the same spells casters already cast with quicken I am not seeing how this can possibly be exploited. The bladeforged SLA can already be quickened for 0 extra sp. There is no chance swapping to a scroll and then back will ever be better than a reconstruct SLA.

People can draw their own conclusion whether your description is good self-healing.

Better in the sense that it's zero SP, on BF builds without caster levels I find SP management can sometimes be tight and it's also pretty slow without quicken. Kinda tedious to scroll swap but should be easy to macro in swaps and swap backs, and since it'd be quickened probably around the same speed as recon sans quicken.

[redoubt]

Better in the sense that it's zero SP, on BF builds without caster levels I find SP management can sometimes be tight and it's also pretty slow without quicken. Kinda tedious to scroll swap but should be easy to macro in swaps and swap backs, and since it'd be quickened probably around the same speed as recon sans quicken.

I've seen this before, but what macros are you talking about? I didn't think DDO had macro support. (i.e. SWG you could write huge macros within the game.)

[Full_Bleed]

I doubt they would bother with it considering the balancing issues, although they could just not bother with balancing at all and make the change. Overall dex is going to be better so it's a proxy buff of sorts.

The current drought of comments from devs on what's going to be done to "finish" the rogue pass makes me think that there may be a more sweeping change in the works. As you note, it would be a proxy buff and would require far fewer resources to implement than many of the other suggestions (some very good) put forth in this thread.

Here is the last thing Sev said on the issue (which is just about the only thing he's said about the rogue follow-up at all at this point):

We suggested making Assassinate use the better of Intelligence bonus or Dexterity bonus when determining its DC, but many players had concerns that it would remove choice. Their concern was a Dexterity based Assassin would be superior enough that there would be no reason to run an Intelligence based build. There were compelling arguments from players on both sides. It will be one of the things we will have to decide with our rogue follow up.

* Emphasis mine.

[brzytki]

So it's like a silence before a storm? The more time passes w/o any update from Sev, the more i'm dreading of what may come.

[CThruTheEgo]

So it's like a silence before a storm? The more time passes w/o any update from Sev, the more i'm dreading of what may come.

^This. My biggest concern is that the problems with Ghallanda last week diverted all attention and resources to deal with them (and rightly so), now they have to start focusing on the next update which may include both epic Shav and warlock, and the rogue revamp "polishing" will simply get marginalized. I fear we will get a couple of minor tweaks, none of which will address any of the issues which were brought up from the very beginning of this thread and then repeated after the changes went live. If the real issues are actually addressed, I will be pleasantly surprised. I'm usually optimistic, but I'm also a realist.

So what's the word Sev? Are we going to hear about any of the potential further changes before they go live so we can offer our feedback?

[Monkey-Boy]

so what's the TLR issue with rogues right now?

Currently running a 20 pure TWFing assassin and while the DPS is very good it's lacking in survivability compared to the other classes that got revamped lately.

Is it that or something more?

[slarden]

The current drought of comments from devs on what's going to be done to "finish" the rogue pass makes me think that there may be a more sweeping change in the works. As you note, it would be a proxy buff and would require far fewer resources to implement than many of the other suggestions (some very good) put forth in this thread.

Here is the last thing Sev said on the issue (which is just about the only thing he's said about the rogue follow-up at all at this point):

* Emphasis mine.

It could be, although when you look at rogue DPS issues it always comes back to one thing that can be done to buff rogues without creating a FOTM multi-class rogue LD builds - buff shadowdancer.

I have no problem if they add dex to assassinate, but if they don't address the 2 simple balancing issues - 4 AP and 1 feat - I will be very disappointed if they don't provide a lesser heart to rogues. They would basically be playing kingmaker - making a new optimal assassin build - leaving the rest of us with our sub-par int builds.

[slarden]

So it's like a silence before a storm? The more time passes w/o any update from Sev, the more i'm dreading of what may come.

Realistically, there are so many different opinions/arguments in these threads I don't blame the devs if they don't post any more ideas until they have what they consider final.

At one point silverleafon thanked Sev for "listening" to him and not improving sneak speed which seemed to imply Sev is using a few people as sounding boards and obviously we never got to see the dps tests Sev mentioned. Alot of dps videos I've seen are misleading because of mortal fear.

Whatever it is I will make the best of it.

I am still frustrated divine grace is in the known issues list after so much time and conflicting comments from Sev about it. Can't a final decision be made on something like that so I know before TRing my characters? If they are going to make the change - make it already. If they reconsidered - remove it from the known issues list already. Don't just leave such a major change hanging in the air for over 6 months. I hope various rogue changes doesn't become like Divine Grace - uncertain for months.

[CThruTheEgo]

so what's the TLR issue with rogues right now?

Currently running a 20 pure TWFing assassin and while the DPS is very good it's lacking in survivability compared to the other classes that got revamped lately.

Is it that or something more?

TL;DR version:
Assassins before the revamp had
1) the worst defenses of any melee
2) the second worst self healing of any melee (only ahead of fighters)
3) dps far behind the revamped classes (each of which got a huge boost in both offense and defense)

Assassins after the revamp have
1) the worst defenses of any melee
2) the second worst self healing of any melee (only ahead of fighters)
3) dps far behind the revamped classes (each of which got a huge boost in both offense and defense)

I notice very little difference in my assassin from before and after the revamp. What was the point of the revamp if nothing significant was going to change? Most people would prefer that defenses and self healing not be improved (at least not much) because that would alter the unique playstyle inherent in assassins. Most agree that their dps should be increased significantly in order to compensate for their weak defenses and self healing. And Sev has stated that "out of combat utility" (i.e. trapping and UMD) is being valued in the overall balance of the class, even though the general response from the community is that such utility has nowhere near the value to make up for the combat utility that assassins lack. And the last time Sev posted in this thread was a week and a half ago, so we're all wondering what the current news is for assassins.

I think that about sums it up.

[Monkey-Boy]

"Out of combat utility" means nothing in a game where traps can be ignore and/or handled by splash builds just fine.

[CThruTheEgo]

"Out of combat utility" means nothing in a game where traps can be ignore and/or handled by splash builds just fine.

Exactly. Scroll healing is also the worst method of self healing in EE and, thanks to 8 skill points from epic levels, any character can now have a useful UMD. So this out of combat utility is hardly an advantage for rogues.

[Propane]

Hay peps -

How many people have been playing around with the new traps?

I took my LV 26 Pure Rogue (DD 72) in to EGH and set up some traps... was doing 275-285 a hit...

I am a little disappointed, I was expecting the trap zone to persist for a while (hitting each mob a few times) or hitting at least 2-3 times harder..

Love the updated set up time - the time to drop is good - the 8 sec delay between setting more traps is long enough...

Pump up the damage and these could be really useful - worth the wait to set up one or two for sure!

[slarden]

TL;DR version:
Assassins before the revamp had
1) the worst defenses of any melee
2) the second worst self healing of any melee (only ahead of fighters)
3) dps far behind the revamped classes (each of which got a huge boost in both offense and defense)

Assassins after the revamp have
1) the worst defenses of any melee
2) the second worst self healing of any melee (only ahead of fighters)
3) dps far behind the revamped classes (each of which got a huge boost in both offense and defense)

I notice very little difference in my assassin from before and after the revamp. What was the point of the revamp if nothing significant was going to change? Most people would prefer that defenses and self healing not be improved (at least not much) because that would alter the unique playstyle inherent in assassins. Most agree that their dps should be increased significantly in order to compensate for their weak defenses and self healing. And Sev has stated that "out of combat utility" (i.e. trapping and UMD) is being valued in the overall balance of the class, even though the general response from the community is that such utility has nowhere near the value to make up for the combat utility that assassins lack. And the last time Sev posted in this thread was a week and a half ago, so we're all wondering what the current news is for assassins.

I think that about sums it up.

As far as 1 and 2 go, I think they should really be combined into one category survivability for ranking purposes because they really go together.

Rogues are worse off than fighters overall. Fighters have essentially the exact same self-healing options that rogues have, but with a minor investment in the defender tree they have many more hp, much better PRR and MRR and evasion is nearly irrelevant now unless you need to disable traps where the trap boxes are in the trap itself.

Silver flame pots arguably hurt fighters less than rogues (I have used on a fighter, but never a rogue). Scroll healing is a wash - anyone can get enough UMD for scroll healing. Cocoon is a wash. A fighter in LD has double PRR compared to a rogue easiy. AC is kind of a wash, displacement clickies are a wash. A rogue in shadowdancer has 15% more ghostly.

I am curious. Why do you think rogues are ahead of fighters on self-healing?

[slarden]

Hay peps -

How many people have been playing around with the new traps?

I took my LV 26 Pure Rogue (DD 72) in to EGH and set up some traps... was doing 275-285 a hit...

I am a little disappointed, I was expecting the trap zone to persist for a while (hitting each mob a few times) or hitting at least 2-3 times harder..

Love the updated set up time - the time to drop is good - the 8 sec delay between setting more traps is long enough...

Pump up the damage and these could be really useful - worth the wait to set up one or two for sure!

The only trap I would consider using is the web traps. Web traps have an amazing DC, but it's so hard to fit in the 8 AP especially when it requires gathering enough magical trap parts to replenish the supply. I will situationally switch my AP around for web traps, but it won't be my normal build.