Rogue - Assassin Changes

[slarden]

Would an easy button like quicken be easier? Sure! Do we need it? Not really. Most of us (still playing rogue) flocked to rogue because we don't want everything, and we like overcoming challenges. We do, however, like our abilities (like concentration skill) to have a use.

I tend to go back to PnP for changes that would be nice, but are not required. It would be appropriate to have a sufficiently high concentration skill help casting a scroll while taking damage. A damage based DC just does not make sense in DDO mechanics. That's why I proposed a percent chance somehow based on both Concentration skill and character level. We have precedent in the defensive roll calculation for acrobats, which is also a damage based number in PnP but was instead converted to a % success rate.

Scrolls have horrible DC's and do not use spell power (low damage). I could care less if other classes use them without fail due to high concentration scores. Quicken is still very useful for casters, both for actual spells and for scrolls. It will still be taken. You can splash a caster class if you need quickened scrolls.

Being able to have quicken on scrolls like casters have it on spells is hardly an easy button. Scroll healing used to be an advantage for rogues, but with the evolution of the game anyone can get a UMD high enough to scroll heal except raged barbarians. The problem is that it is too slow and unreliable for use during EE combat - I can't remember the last time I saw someone scroll heal during combat in difficult EE content.

I don't believe the quicken spell works on scrolls at all so your splashing idea won't work. What has been proposed by several people is a quicken-like ability for scrolls that is a unique ability of rogues. This would be useful not just for healing, but also for res scrolls to bring up party members. It's certainly not overpowered because every casting class can already do it with spells.

[nokowi]

At some point you either have to accept that rogue (assassin in particular) is the place for skilled players, and accept that rogue has more difficulties, or you can turn rogue into every other class that already exists.

If you want to start removing skill from playing a rogue, quickened scrolls are a good place to start. Now you don't need to jump away when you take too much damage. Forget about tactics such as agro control that can keep you alive today, now its a game of standing there mashing buttons 3-4-5-6 repeatedly.

Stealth is the biggest damage reducer in the game (use it!). Even outside of stealth, it is easy to control how much agro you have simply by running into the room 2nd, or using stealth until someone else is seen. You control your environment, and there is really no excuse for needing quickened scroll heals other than a lack of agro management.

Sure it would be a perk that would make life easier... But it is not needed anywhere in the game to succeed... Why remove skilled play?

[HuneyMunster]

I think rogues should be better than other classes at scroll healing. The quicken ability not only stops the interruption it also speeds up the scroll healing which is an advantage I think rogues should have.

Arti's are the best scroll users as they gain +2umd and 5 caster levels when using scrolls. W&SM should really either increase caster level by 1 per rank instead of the dc or increase chance of not getting interupted. The only way increasing the dc would be useful if scrolls added ability mod to the dc then maybe some scrolls might be mildly useful out side of healing, buffs and those that have no save such as pw:kill, ice storm and energy drain.

[HuneyMunster]

At some point you either have to accept that rogue (assassin in particular) is the place for skilled players, and accept that rogue has more difficulties, or you can turn rogue into every other class that already exists.

If you want to start removing skill from playing a rogue, quickened scrolls are a good place to start. Now you don't need to jump away when you take too much damage. Forget about tactics such as agro control that can keep you alive today, now its a game of standing there mashing buttons 3-4-5-6 repeatedly.

Stealth is the biggest damage reducer in the game (use it!). Even outside of stealth, it is easy to control how much agro you have simply by running into the room 2nd, or using stealth until someone else is seen. You control your environment, and there is really no excuse for needing quickened scroll heals other than a lack of agro management.

Sure it would be a perk that would make life easier... But it is not needed anywhere in the game to succeed... Why remove skilled play?

Same, I don't want to see rogues become too much easy mode and the new flavor of the month. I see alot more rogue running around atm. I would think some are old rogues that have had their cobwebs dusted off and some are newly built to try them out. I know myself Im enjoying my rogue far more than I have ever done before. There are still some minor tweaks that could be done before the pass is complete.

[Grace_ana]

At some point you either have to accept that rogue (assassin in particular) is the place for skilled players, and accept that rogue has more difficulties, or you can turn rogue into every other class that already exists.

If you want to start removing skill from playing a rogue, quickened scrolls are a good place to start. Now you don't need to jump away when you take too much damage. Forget about tactics such as agro control that can keep you alive today, now its a game of standing there mashing buttons 3-4-5-6 repeatedly.

Stealth is the biggest damage reducer in the game (use it!). Even outside of stealth, it is easy to control how much agro you have simply by running into the room 2nd, or using stealth until someone else is seen. You control your environment, and there is really no excuse for needing quickened scroll heals other than a lack of agro management.

Sure it would be a perk that would make life easier... But it is not needed anywhere in the game to succeed... Why remove skilled play?

I think this is a bit simplistic. There are many places, especially in EE, where you can't just jump away. Archers and casters can hit hard enough from far away to fail your scrolls, even with concentration, and in many of those places you absolutely cannot get away from it regardless of skill. I've tried invis even with diplo and hide/MS, with super high scores in all of it, and it still doesn't usually work. A single AOE will mess you up anyway.

I also can't see how a quickened scroll eliminates skilled play. It still means you have to swap quickly, target yourself or other party members that need it, and still focus on DPS and aggro management. A skilled rogue will try to time scroll healing for shedding aggro moments: stop hitting, diplo, scroll, start hitting again. Quickened scrolls simply mean you adjust your timing and skills, just like skilled divines would anticipate healing back in the day when it was needed and at proper times in a raid. It's still skill.

I'm all for rogues remaining a very specialized, skilled class. But I don't think that means we don't change anything. Tweaking concentration just won't cut it; even casters can't usually rely on concentration in EE.

[nokowi]

I think this is a bit simplistic. There are many places, especially in EE, where you can't just jump away. Archers and casters can hit hard enough from far away to fail your scrolls, even with concentration, and in many of those places you absolutely cannot get away from it regardless of skill. I've tried invis even with diplo and hide/MS, with super high scores in all of it, and it still doesn't usually work. A single AOE will mess you up anyway.

I also can't see how a quickened scroll eliminates skilled play. It still means you have to swap quickly, target yourself or other party members that need it, and still focus on DPS and aggro management. A skilled rogue will try to time scroll healing for shedding aggro moments: stop hitting, diplo, scroll, start hitting again. Quickened scrolls simply mean you adjust your timing and skills, just like skilled divines would anticipate healing back in the day when it was needed and at proper times in a raid. It's still skill.

I'm all for rogues remaining a very specialized, skilled class. But I don't think that means we don't change anything. Tweaking concentration just won't cut it; even casters can't usually rely on concentration in EE.

Changing the formula for concentration checks can easily fix scroll heals. I suggested exactly such a method earlier. Did Sev say this was not an option?

You are entitled to have the opinion that you somehow need quickened scrolls. Maybe dev's will listen to you. I can only speak form my own experiences and perspective. Having solo'd many many elites without quickened scrolls, I can speak from experience that this is not something a skilled player needs. I never-ever use diplomacy because I can control agro. The fact that diplomacy use is a part of your scroll routine tells me you have room for improvement in your own play: You are losing more dps from diplomacy than you will get back from quickened scroll use. I will again suggest that you work on your agro management instead of telling dev's you actually need quickened scrolls.

[slarden]

At some point you either have to accept that rogue (assassin in particular) is the place for skilled players, and accept that rogue has more difficulties, or you can turn rogue into every other class that already exists. If you want to start removing skill from playing a rogue, quickened scrolls are a good place to start. Now you don't need to jump away when you take too much damage. Forget about tactics such as agro control that can keep you alive today, now its a game of standing there mashing buttons 3-4-5-6 repeatedly. Stealth is the biggest damage reducer in the game (use it!). Even outside of stealth, it is easy to control how much agro you have simply by running into the room 2nd, or using stealth until someone else is seen. You control your environment, and there is really no excuse for needing quickened scroll heals other than a lack of agro management. Sure it would be a perk that would make life easier... But it is not needed anywhere in the game to succeed... Why remove skilled play?

This is utter nonsense lol. When Sev started bringing up Rogue I was the very first person to say I didn't want an easy button like bard and that I considered assassin to be a very skilled and nuanced build. This is an extremely foolish argument that we are asking for an easy button.Do you not understand that cocoon is still superior to scroll healing even if it's quickened because you don't need to swap your weapon. Divine Crusader is the easy button if someone is looking for it - it's much easier than scroll healing. Do you not realize that there are better defense mechanisms for managing agro like meld into darkness, daunting roar and improved uncanny dodge? For someone that is acting all elitist your comments are very unenlightened. What fool do you think is going to run around doing nothing but scroll healing himself because he can't manage agro. Quickened or not he is going to die. Your "skill" argument makes no sense at all.Rogues used to be at the top of the heap when it came to using scrolls and now they are no better than any other class. For me the scroll healing would always be a deep backup option, but in raids I would find quickened res scrolls most helpful and would give me more utility. You sound like a solo player, because any rogue that groups at end game would tell you that agro problems result from other player actions more often than not. I don't see a need to get condescending just because you disagree. I don't think you are any more skilled than I am.

[slarden]

Changing the formula for concentration checks can easily fix scroll heals. I suggested exactly such a method earlier. Did Sev say this was not an option?You are entitled to have the opinion that you somehow need quickened scrolls. Maybe dev's will listen to you. I can only speak form my own experiences and perspective. Having solo'd many many elites without quickened scrolls, I can speak from experience that this is not something a skilled player needs. I never-ever use diplomacy because I can control agro. The fact that diplomacy use is a part of your scroll routine tells me you have room for improvement in your own play: You are losing more dps from diplomacy than you will get back from quickened scroll use. I will again suggest that you work on your agro management instead of telling dev's you actually need quickened scrolls.

II think it's fine to disagree with a topic. You've crossed the line several times by attacking a person's skill level which really wasn't needed.I think you are a solo player that is not understanding the perspective a person that spends most of his time at end game raiding and running the most difficult content in the game in groups. Grouping adds a random element to the game you can't control, especially when you allow less experienced players to join you.

[Full_Bleed]

You are entitled to have the opinion that you somehow need quickened scrolls. Maybe dev's will listen to you. I can only speak form my own experiences and perspective. Having solo'd many many elites without quickened scrolls, I can speak from experience that this is not something a skilled player needs.

I hope the Devs are taking notes.

Solo rogues have a very different experience in Elites than rogues playing with groups and full-scaling.

Frankly, I think soloers are the ones exploiting the biggest "easy button" in the game and people should take their railing against other so-called "easy buttons" with a grain of salt.


That said, my assassin could care less about scroll healing. By 20 I've given it up, recognizing that it's only good for out-of-combat use (and when I'm out of combat I usually have all the time in the world). Of course, I'm not taking wand and scroll mastery either for the exact same reason. I find it to be a waste of AP for something that can't stand up to the beating you'll be taking when you actually need it.

That said, I would be against giving rogues the quicken feat for free. But giving them a 25/50/75 auto concentration save with the Mastery enhancement when scrolling would probably make it more useful for those who want it (which will probably be soloers and lower difficulty setting players... because in EEs, once you've taken two hits you're not thinking about weathering the storm like other self-sufficient classes... you're taking evasive maneuvers.) That falls short of no-fail and won't be faster... but it would increase the utility a bit.

[redoubt]

How much UMD gear to you wear IN combat? i.e. you don't swap it in when you want to use a scroll.

On quicken scroll, put it in the rogue bonus feat list.

[nokowi]

99% of my experience is in group play. Things are 10x easier in group play than solo.

I appreciate the list of all the other ways rogues can avoid damage. I demonstrate these tools in my videos, so I am aware of them. The fact that rogues have all kinds of options strengthens the argument that rogues have tools to survive without needing a quickened heal.

You can attack my expertise, but I will be able to defend it. Gathering too much agro, and then having to use diplomacy before you can scroll heal is a sign of an inexpert player. There is no excuse for this in group play other than poor player choices. I can discuss a poor play choice without attacking the person.

[dualscissors]

Gathering too much agro, and then having to use diplomacy before you can scroll heal is a sign of an inexpert player. There is no excuse for this in group play other than poor player choices. I can discuss a poor play choice without attacking the person.

I would say drawing agro isn't especially typical - certainly less so in Shadowdancer than LD where DPS is more moderate.

For me agro problems are more common in situations where there are a ton of mobs (esp. archers/ranged) and someone inevitably chooses me. Mark of Death or the drop down fights in Ghosts of Perdition comes to mind as examples.

Of course AoEs and bosses with random agro can be problematic.

[nokowi]

I hope the Devs are taking notes.

Solo rogues have a very different experience in Elites than rogues playing with groups and full-scaling.

Frankly, I think soloers are the ones exploiting the biggest "easy button" in the game and people should take their railing against other so-called "easy buttons" with a grain of salt.


That said, my assassin could care less about scroll healing. By 20 I've given it up, recognizing that it's only good for out-of-combat use (and when I'm out of combat I usually have all the time in the world). Of course, I'm not taking wand and scroll mastery either for the exact same reason. I find it to be a waste of AP for something that can't stand up to the beating you'll be taking when you actually need it.

That said, I would be against giving rogues the quicken feat for free. But giving them a 25/50/75 auto concentration save with the Mastery enhancement when scrolling would probably make it more useful for those who want it (which will probably be soloers and lower difficulty setting players... because in EEs, once you've taken two hits you're not thinking about weathering the storm like other self-sufficient classes... you're taking evasive maneuvers.) That falls short of no-fail and won't be faster... but it would increase the utility a bit.

You think soloing is easier than group play? In solo mode, you have no choice but to get agro, which increases your damage taken and decreases your damage output. If you mess up, you are dead. You could not be more mistaken. Solo is much harder than group play. My guildie asked me the other day in group play if I had 95% dodge. Why? Because I never get agro in group play and I don't seem to ever take damage. I'm out of stealth at least 1/2 of the time and I am maximizing my damage output. If you are getting more agro in group play than I get in solo mode, you have some serious issues that won't be fixed by quickened scrolls.

I show scroll healing on EE content in my videos. It works beautifully. It's useful. Can a scroll heal ever get interrupted? Sure, but you have all other kinds of damage mitigation and instant heal options (bottle of rum, sovereign healing potions, shadow dodge, meld into darkness, daunting roar, etc)

The people advocating quickened scrolls seem to lack a fundamental understanding of solo vs group difficulty, and of agro management.

The easier solution is for players to improve their own gameplay instead of making poor choices while demanding they somehow need quickened heals. Let's keep rogue a place for skilled players. Those of you having difficulties (I acknowledge you are) can improve your game.

[brzytki]

You think soloing is easier than group play? In solo mode, you have no choice but to get agro, which increases your damage taken and decreases your damage output. If you mess up, you are dead. You could not be more mistaken. Solo is much harder than group play. My guildie asked me the other day in group play if I had 95% dodge. Why? Because I never get agro in group play and I don't seem to ever take damage. I'm out of stealth at least 1/2 of the time and I am maximizing my damage output. If you are getting more agro in group play than I get in solo mode, you have some serious issues that won't be fixed by quickened scrolls.

I show scroll healing on EE content in my videos. It works beautifully. It's useful. Can a scroll heal ever get interrupted? Sure, but you have all other kinds of damage mitigation and instant heal options (bottle of rum, sovereign healing potions, shadow dodge, meld into darkness, daunting roar, etc)

The people advocating quickened scrolls seem to lack a fundamental understanding of solo vs group difficulty, and of agro management.

The easier solution is for players to improve their own gameplay instead of making poor choices while demanding they somehow need quickened heals. Let's keep rogue a place for skilled players. Those of you having difficulties (I acknowledge you are) can improve your game.

I'm sorry to break it to you but on a drow in SD without haste boost it's no wonder that you don't pull agro in group play. Any melee/specialist that runs in LD/Crusader/PA and maybe Fury will do more damage than you and couple it with your -threat gear/enhancements, others' +threat and it's understandable. When i'm double boosting on my assassin i pull agro sometimes, especially on bosses/champions and that's when quickened scrolls would be great. Or when the group pulls too many mobs at once and people start dying. And what happens when someone dies? Monsters attack the person next to them or next on their agro list. That's when your rogue can grab agro of a couple of mobs without even knowing. In high lvl EE content, an assassin has 2 ways of playing: skirting the edges of a fight assassinating mobs from stealth and waiting for the cooldown not engaging in the fight otherwise OR assassinating once off cooldown and keeping up with other melees. The former is a "safe" mode while in the latter you risk grabbing agro and facing cleaving mobs and stray arrows.

In solo play you have easier time predicting what's gonna happen next, what threats you'll face and have all the time you want. In group play you don't have much time to flower-sniff, won't have time to check the buffs on every champion that's approaching your group, a person who has agro of archers can run behind you and you'll get shot instead of them pulling you out of sneak, for example. Group play has more randomness than solo play, i think that's what other people want to say. Also, quest scaling. When soloing you won't see many hits for 150+ damage unless from a champion but go in the same quest with 4-5 more people and suddenly trash hits you that hard.

[Full_Bleed]

You think soloing is easier than group play?

For most content, "Absolutely".

You think most soloers do it because it's harder? People gravitate to what's easier and convenient. And this game has made soloing both of those things.

[slarden]

99% of my experience is in group play. Things are 10x easier in group play than solo.

I appreciate the list of all the other ways rogues can avoid damage. I demonstrate these tools in my videos, so I am aware of them. The fact that rogues have all kinds of options strengthens the argument that rogues have tools to survive without needing a quickened heal.

You can attack my expertise, but I will be able to defend it. Gathering too much agro, and then having to use diplomacy before you can scroll heal is a sign of an inexpert player. There is no excuse for this in group play other than poor player choices. I can discuss a poor play choice without attacking the person.

Now you are calling it a "quickened heal".

You are the person that started attacking others "skill" so stop acting like a victim. Discuss the issue instead of attacking the person.

[slarden]

You think soloing is easier than group play? In solo mode, you have no choice but to get agro, which increases your damage taken and decreases your damage output. If you mess up, you are dead. You could not be more mistaken. Solo is much harder than group play. My guildie asked me the other day in group play if I had 95% dodge. Why? Because I never get agro in group play and I don't seem to ever take damage. I'm out of stealth at least 1/2 of the time and I am maximizing my damage output. If you are getting more agro in group play than I get in solo mode, you have some serious issues that won't be fixed by quickened scrolls.

I show scroll healing on EE content in my videos. It works beautifully. It's useful. Can a scroll heal ever get interrupted? Sure, but you have all other kinds of damage mitigation and instant heal options (bottle of rum, sovereign healing potions, shadow dodge, meld into darkness, daunting roar, etc)

The people advocating quickened scrolls seem to lack a fundamental understanding of solo vs group difficulty, and of agro management.

The easier solution is for players to improve their own gameplay instead of making poor choices while demanding they somehow need quickened heals. Let's keep rogue a place for skilled players. Those of you having difficulties (I acknowledge you are) can improve your game.

There you go with attacking people play styles simply because you don't agree with the request. I've tried to be kind and avoid commenting on your videos, but you've done enough insulting that I might reconsider that.

In solo you have total control over agro. That is not the case in group play especially when you are grouped with people you don't know with varying knowledge levels.

I wouldn't say having a quicken ability on scrolls is a huge priority for me, but I prefer to see abilities like that added I don't think are over-powered and give rogues the type of advantages they should have. Your concentration formula is not a good idea. If the devs wanted to give rogues more concentration they should just give a very large concentration boost to scroll mastery while a scroll is equipped.

[dualscissors]

In solo you have total control over agro. That is not the case in group play especially when you are grouped with people you don't know with varying knowledge levels.

My experience with solo vs. group is more in line with what Nokowi is articulating. Certainly I've been in some pug groups that can cause a lot of havoc for me with decisions that disrupt my game plan. But overall, in reasonably competent groups, the concentration of group fire power and someone taking the heat off of you is much more of a boon than a detriment.

Conversely, in solo play, short of single-pulling/laying traps and breaking up every batch of mobs, rogue survivability is low enough that I get demolished as soon as I have multiple EE mobs hating on me - with no other ally to shed agro on, guaranteeing that it's on me.

[slarden]

My experience with solo vs. group is more in line with what Nokowi is articulating. Certainly I've been in some pug groups that can cause a lot of havoc for me with decisions that disrupt my game plan. But overall, in reasonably competent groups, the concentration of group fire power and someone taking the heat off of you is much more of a boon than a detriment.

Conversely, in solo play, short of single-pulling and breaking up every batch of mobs, rogue survivability is low enough that I get demolished as soon as I have 3 mobs (or 1 mob, an archer and a caster) hating on me - with no other ally to shed agro on.

A quest will go alot quicker with a good group for sure because party damage is roughly 6x greater and total of enemy hp doesn't go up nearly as much. Rogues are definitely better suited for group play.

What I was talking about specifically was avoiding and managing agro. It's easier to do solo because you have total control over the environment and the timing. In some quests the # of mobs is significantly less. Especially when you are willing to do things like run a 15 min quest in over 1 hour by playing it safe.

My point was that you have less control over preventing agro in a group where random people do random thing - your agro management tools remain the same but can be more stretched because the supply is limited.

I don't consider soloing EE Vol in 1+ hour an accomplishment - I don't think it requires skill to do it at all because this is a PVE environment and all that requires is playing it safe and sacrificing time for efficiency. That isn't "superior skills" - it's simply playing it safe. Calling that proper agro management is a huge stretch.

[brzytki]

As i promised, i ran today a few tests in Cabal to check the effect of upgraded rogue enhancements. Here's the old post about my first tests so that you don't have to sift through a couple of pages to find it and compare.

About the assassin's DPS. Today before i ETR'd, i ran two DPS tests in Cabal on my fully decked out human assassin (64+ INT, KtA, haste/damage boost, 7 MP (Harper), 14% alacrity, OC, ISA, Tensers, twisted Sense Weakness, TF (vulnerability/fort reduction/MF)+Agony, 20%+ doublestrike (obviously not from Killer lol).
The first one was in SD, so (not counting +[W] attacks) 6d6 SA, 3% doublestrike, 24 MP cores, Shadow Mastery's 5% physical vulnerability from Shadowdancer added to my DPS score. I had nearly 2,450k DPS (2,448 to be exact but let's round it a little).
The second test was in LD, so (again, not counting any +[W] attacks cause i didn't have PA anyway) 18 MP cores, cooldown reduction, +1[W], +6 seeker, +5 damage (advancing blows), +1 crit multi on 19-20, 70 MP (blitz). I had nearly 3,4k DPS (3,375 to be exact) but i forgot to scroll Tensers, which means i was at BAB 19 as opposed to the previous test. That's 1k DPS difference between those two EDs and 2k DPS difference between my rogue in LD and top DPS barb/palies in LD. And we are still talking about single target and a non-helpless monster.

All things stayed the same except some changes in heroic enhancements. As a reminder, i did not have any Killer stacks, no MtF stacks either. Shiv might have helped these times (probably a little more SAs went in) and i remembered to use Tensers for all my tests too.
First build (compared to the one from before the revamp)

• -3 seeker (Critical Mastery)
• +5 damage (Deadly Strikes)
• +20 MP (cores)
• +6 MP TWF feats

In Shadowdancer ~2820 DPS, in LD ~3900 DPS.

Second build (compared to the one from before the revamp)

• -1 seeker (Critical Mastery)
• +2 MP (Harper)
• +20 MP (cores)
• +6 MP TWF feats

In Shadowdancer ~2800 DPS. I was too tired to try it in LD and didn't have time anyway as i had to restart some of the attempts.

As you can see, it's ~350 DPS increase on a double bursting build, obviously less for other races. From those figures one could estimate that +20 MP from full stacks of MtF could add max ~250 DPS, if present for the whole fight but then again there is a DPS loss from going into and out of sneak mode, so even lower than that.