Rogue - Assassin Changes

[dualscissors]

I read in an announcement yesterday that they will allow rogues to use their Wisdom for assassinate in order to encourage cleric splashes.

It's hard to balance a dayjob spreading the good word and a moonlighting gig murdering people.

[Severlin]

Warning: I learned this morning that the Assassinate cooldown reduction was not changed in our live build and will remain 15 seconds with the next patch.

I apologize for my misinformation.

Sev~

[ToastyFred]

Warning: I learned this morning that the Assassinate cooldown reduction was not changed in our live build and will remain 15 seconds with the next patch.

I apologize for my misinformation.

Sev~

Did you mean "...until the next patch."?

[mudfud]

Warning: I learned this morning that the Assassinate cooldown reduction was not changed in our live build and will remain 15 seconds with the next patch.

I apologize for my misinformation.

Sev~

More April Fools Pranks. You all from Turbine on a roll today. Keep them coming!

[dualscissors]

The feat is a critical difference on a feat-starved build. Auto-granting it in the capstone completely eliminates the balance issue there.

Way old post...but I just realized the other day that the pen/paper game notes that those Rogue Special Abilities at 10, 13, 16, 19 can also be used for a general Feat.

[nokowi]

Where are these dps tests?

Does anyone on this thread put shadowdancer assassin as a top DPS build? I would take any player video showing top tier dps. Tier 3 TF without mortal fear is preferred if it is on a non-Red named.

[nokowi]

Assassins are near the top DPS against bosses when sneak attack damage is getting through and they are alive. When you factor in a full dungeon there is a no way rogues are anywhere near the top of the heap as far as DPS is concerned. Rogues are squishy and have weak self-healing and DPS is really low when you are dead. Sometimes rogues have to exit combat temporarily to avoid dying. Rogues have no AOE attacks.

I like the 12 second assassinate cooldown and the MP boost - that makes sense.

I stopped watching most of the player videos demonstrating DPS when I realized most appeared to be rigged to demonstrate what the maker of the video wanted to prove. Just a slight tweaking of how mortal fear is abused makes a huge difference.

Are you talking about an endgame rogue in Shadowdancer or some other destiny? Please qualify your statements.

Thanks,

Nokowi

[redoubt]

Just watched the lunchtime twich feed with Cordo, Sev and Varg. As always, communication is good, so thank you for putting out as much as you can.

1. Question: when you spoke about lethality you said it works off of a DC similar to, but lower than assassinate. Have you had time to go and look at what that function is and are you willing to share it with us?

2. A comment on Execute. You talked about having the option to use it more than once in a fight, specifically boss fights. I think it is going to be a rare fight where it is used more than once. Even on a high HP boss, once the boss below 30% (and most will aim for 25% because it is easier to see and to make sure it activates) many in the party will be deep into extra damage from things like Sense Weakness. That last 25% is going to go fast. When many of the boss/miniboss beat down tests are well under a minute total, I don't see a boss, in a group lasting that long. Even a boss like Auglorasa does not spend much time below 30% before killing blow chance triggers. Now, I don't mean that to imply that the enhancement is bad, but I question it being used more than once per monster. Could you elaborate on where you think it will be work more? (I'll slip into my asbestos now... )

[redoubt]

Back on Lama testing again.

I had seen people using Gardak in Cabal for One as a DPS test. It looked amusing and I'd never done that sort of thing, so I went out on the live server with a vanguard paladin. Sneezed on the trash and killed Gardak in 22 seconds. 4,350 dps. Nothing amazing, but I was happy with that on a tank.

Now, I port that character over to lama, TR into a shadar-kai pure rogue. Gear up and head out. Assassinated stuff no problem on the way. Discovered that MTF is not giving me +10 max dodge. Shrined and went in. Assassinted one guy, next two killed me. (30ish dodge, displacement, 25% ghostly and 78 PRR didn't seem to be doing much.)

Heal up and head back out. This time I kept my shadow charges and zoned in. So I'm starting at a dodge of 28/28, which goes up to 33/33 with full stacks of Measure the Foe. I tried assassinating the first sentry 3 times and finally realized that the epic ward was protecting him. I was at a 70 DC, so he should not be saving that much. So I bluff pull him and his buddy comes too. I hit a few times and then run and cocoon. Hit a few times and cocoon. Kill one, then toe to toe with second. With deception I can stay alive, barely. I get rid of all the trash and heal up and buff up... wait... my 11 minute GH clickie has expired... on my pali it took less than a minute to clear the trash and kill Gardak. Anyway, I put displacement and haste back up, dip into sneak to make sure I get a full 10 seconds of MTF and start the fight. 30 seconds in I'm dead and Gardak is at 75% health.

My initial thoughts are that this confirms all counts of rogue healing and defense being very poor. 33 dodge, displacement, 25% incorp, 78 PRR is layering, its not as if I ignored defensive measures. My healing amp during testing was low at 20 (I could not figure out how to get the remnant cloak with heal amp on lama). Cocoon was not enough healing. I could trying backing out and scroll healing, but then I'm into kiting indefinitely (I've tried this before, it works in a group, but not solo, unless you break contact and let them lash back.) DPS was also poor. Even with two improved deception items (full upgraded agony / epic backstabber's gloves) the amount of time he had his back turned was not enough for either DPS or defense. In 33% longer time frame I did only 25% the damage of my Vanguard with a similar level of gear,not exact, (call the vanguard at 100% and the rogue at 90%), but close enough in gear that I would have though success more likely if assassins are truly doing the type of DPS the devs are saying.

[brzytki]

Where are these dps tests?

Does anyone on this thread put shadowdancer assassin as a top DPS build? I would take any player video showing top tier dps. Tier 3 TF without mortal fear is preferred if it is on a non-Red named.

I tried to test it on Lama yesterday since some people argued that a test on Lama is more meaningful than my tests on live.

So i log in, check my gear, EDs and enahncements to match with those of mine on live, grab a fvs hire and i'm ready to head out to test it only to be reminded by my guildies that MM account achievements do not carry through to Lama... No biggie, i say, off to farm 4k hobs in Tear. After around an hour of farming i have 1,5k kills and 35 different types killed. Good job! 3 out of 5 account deeds completed! But then my ship buffs from live expire! My God, after 5 minutes of waiting for the Store to open to buy enough shards to get a ship and all buffs upgraded and a couple more for the Store to accept my purchase, i manage to buy them. All good, i say, i'ts gonna be easy from now. Not really. Buying and upgrading amenities means running to Dojo and back to the ship a few times to deposit plat (which you need what seemed to be 20-25 mil), only that apparently plat can't be deposited on the ship, you need to run to the guy with airships in harbor... Long story short, it took some time.

Now, happy with ship buffs finally in place i'm running to get the remaining 2,5k hobs. But wait a minute... Somehow during the whole process of gearing up my ship i lost Volume 1 of MM and i can't advance hobs kills anymore... Yes, you guessed right, relogging doesn't fix this. So i wasted 2+ hours of my time and got absolutely nothing.

[brzytki]

Even with two improved deception items (full upgraded agony / epic backstabber's gloves) the amount of time he had his back turned was not enough for either DPS or defense.

Just a nitpick here, you don't need a monster to turn to get SA when Imp Deception procs, sometimes they remain facing you after the proc and you still get SA.

[illuminar]

Right now we are going through the player feedback and DPS videos. We are seeing different results (Assassins are closer to the top builds) and we need more time to figure out why.

Our plan is to take the time to recreate the tests we are seeing and make changes based on those, but we will need a couple of weeks to do that. We have a patch planned in 2-3 weeks where we will be doing more changes to rogues.

For now we changed Assassinate to 12 seconds and boosted Melee Power by a total of 10 by boosted the 4th and 5th cores by 10 each.

Sev~

IMO close is good enough. I would much prefer rogues being set apart by things like letting assassinate bypassing deathblock/ward and allowing rogues to sneak at full speed, than having a specific build tested for DPS milestones. Those things should be secondary (but still important) to giving the rogue a unique tactical advantages. It is just a much better way to improve the class (or any class for that matter). As race to DPS equalization is a race to the bottom -- stagnant gameplay.

[redoubt]

IMO close is good enough. I would much prefer rogues being set apart by things like letting assassinate bypassing deathblock/ward and allowing rogues to sneak at full speed, than having a specific build tested for DPS milestones. Those things should be secondary (but still important) to giving the rogue a unique tactical advantages. It is just a much better way to improve the class (or any class for that matter). As race to DPS equalization is a race to the bottom -- stagnant gameplay.

I completely agree, but so far Severlin has not wanted to boost Lethality or allow bypassing of DB or DW. I would be okay with not further boosting DPS if we made more assassinate type attacks. Lethality using the assassinate mechanic on a vorpal would be one option. Execute was bumped to 30%, but I don't think it is a useful as Severlin says in the Twitch feed. SD Executioner's strike using INT or DEX and bumping up to 50%. And like you said, we need some way around orange names and mobs with DW/DB. Give us that and then we don't need straight up barb DPS; but right now were are a glass canon without the canon.

I have actually tried to test DPS, not because I think assassin DPS alone should be equivalent to Barbarians, but because I was curious. The devs have stated that they have done testing (but have not yet shared their testing methods) and that in their testing rogues are performing well. I shared my experience because it is different that what they are reporting. I'll likely test more, but things seem so far apart, I'm not even sure what to test.

I enjoyed the game back when you needed a group to complete quests. I also still enjoy the game today. If we are going to stick with pushing things that allow solo play, then that needs to be done for all. I see this as a sticking point for assassins.
- Low DPS
- Low Defense
- Low healing
- unable to use the signature move (assassinate) against much of the epic content due to epic ward (I'm guessing DW or DB is hiding under it.)

I just don't understand how so many of us seem to see this side of it, but the devs are seeing something else. If there is something else I can test or try, I will. (I'd be happy to grab ship buffs or put the last piece of gear on if I knew how to make it on lamania. But as good as it is to have the DOJO available, it is still a very cumbersome process to get the right gear and buffs.)

[FlaviusMaximus]

Does it make sense for Rogues to have a reduced BAB anymore? I know this is based on PnP rules, but I'm not sure it makes sense in today's game. Rogues are as much a combat class as any other and I don't think they are getting such strong advantages that they need to be balanced out by a partial DPS hit. If many are of the opinion that Rogues can use a little more boosting, a full BAB would be another nice step in the right direction.

Actually I think it makes sense for a lot of classes to have full BABs. The way classes are becoming "do everythings", perhaps they all should.

[Bobby88888]

IMO close is good enough. I would much prefer rogues being set apart by things like letting assassinate bypassing deathblock/ward and allowing rogues to sneak at full speed, than having a specific build tested for DPS milestones. Those things should be secondary (but still important) to giving the rogue a unique tactical advantages. It is just a much better way to improve the class (or any class for that matter). As race to DPS equalization is a race to the bottom -- stagnant gameplay.

Basically this.

Buff assassinate and sneaking with small DPS boost via SA damage rather than trying to boost DPS up to the absurd levels of barb, pally, bard to make them viable.

[draven1]

Does it make sense for Rogues to have a reduced BAB anymore? I know this is based on PnP rules, but I'm not sure it makes sense in today's game. Rogues are as much a combat class as any other and I don't think they are getting such strong advantages that they need to be balanced out by a partial DPS hit. If many are of the opinion that Rogues can use a little more boosting, a full BAB would be another nice step in the right direction.

Actually I think it makes sense for a lot of classes to have full BABs. The way classes are becoming "do everythings", perhaps they all should.

I think it shows why assassins isn't front-line combatant.
They don't have full BAB, so, if they have aggro, they will have some flaw about low to-hit & losing sneak attack.
But they can have backstab(+2 hit from flanking, +more from backstabbing gears) which compensate miss chances from 2/3 BAB.

Only missed ones are attack speed & PRR/MRR from full BAB. I think there should be some attack speed boost from keeping sneak attack. Missed PRR/MRR can be from light armor enhancement.

[draven1]

Basically this.

Buff assassinate and sneaking with small DPS boost via SA damage rather than trying to boost DPS up to the absurd levels of barb, pally, bard to make them viable.

But, assassins had far better DPS than barb, pally, bard before ED(U14).

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...onsidering-DPS

You can see that rogues and rogue splashes are the undisputed champions of trash. But this shouldn't be all that surprising; the model assumes that they always have sneak attack vs 0% fort, and sneak attacks make up around 40% of their DPS vs 0% fort. This is the situation that they excel at. The disadvantage is the relatively low HP of rogues and the setting up of this situation: in a group, the rogue has to wait slightly for someone else to draw aggro first (meaning that his initial DPS is 0), while solo, the rogue would be using radiance weapons; if he is using khopeshes then there is a longer period of time before he gets the sneak attacks, while if he is using rapiers then his trash DPS is lowered. The model also assumes hitting on a roll of 2 or higher which is a boon for rogues because of their relatively low to-hit. But when the conditions are set up correctly, you can't beat a rogue against trash.

[gwonbush]

Do note that that bar graph misrepresents the differences between the classes by not including 0-300 dps in the length of the bar.

[draven1]

Do note that that bar graph misrepresents the differences between the classes by not including 0-300 dps in the length of the bar.

But, it shows at least pure assassins had 140+ DPS than pure barb on ideal situation. 28% more DPS than pure barb.

Assassins didn't have top tier DPS.

They were just the KING OF DPS in right situation before ED.

We need just "the return of the king".

[gwonbush]

I'm not denying the numbers themselves, merely that removing the first 300 from each bar skews the "at a glance" difference in the favor of the rogue, making it look like it has 1.7x as much dps as a barb instead of the 1.28x that it actually had.