Rogue - Assassin Changes

[CThruTheEgo]

Thanks for the tip. But if I'm going to spend time doing something it won't be running casual to farm for an item. I'll play the game as I normally would.

Run it on EE if you prefer. The difficulty does not affect the chain end reward. I am merely pointing out the ease with which these items are obtainable.

The fact that you equate "effort" with doing something like running a chain on casual to farm for an item just shows how different we perceive the word "effort".


If that's what you've gotten out of my posts then you really shouldn't have even bothered to respond to them.

Running content 2-4 levels UNDER most of the time, maintaining our Elite streak, and playing one-and-done because we don't want to give into a cheesy MMO farming mentality is the absolute FURTHEST THING from "lack of effort*. Completely absurd conclusion on your part.

When I speak of effort, I am speaking of the effort involved in boosting assassinate DC, or optimizing a build. You running quests 2-4 levels under has absolutely nothing to do with that kind of effort. I'm sure it takes effort for you to run quests 2-4 levels under, but that kind of effort doesn't serve to improve your character in any way other than gaining experience. You have been quite clear that you're not interested in investing the kind of effort of which I speak. And that's fine, but recognize that it's your playstyle choice. In other words, it's a self imposed limitation you place on yourself regarding how much you are willing to invest in your build. There's nothing wrong with that. I just don't think the game should cater to such self imposed limitations. Not every game mechanic is going to mesh well with every playstyle, and that's OK. If you were playing any other DC based build (excluding swashbucklers), you would also find similar limitations in the build because of your preferred method of one and done questing in off EDs and no farming for items. All DC based builds are gear dependent, that's just how it is.

I get it. You're cool with gear being the gateway for rogue assassination. I'm not. I think it's an arbitrary way to take a very conditional card out the rogue's deck and that other sacrifices should be able to be made to keep it in. If I had to spend AP's to get assassination-viable how does that affect those who are already gear-viable? They'd just get to spend those AP's on other things that I don't get. If lazy-no-effort assassins like me had to spend 9 AP's to get +9DC and super-duper-over-achieving assassins could spend them on other perks like 4 seconds off their assassination timer and 5 more SA dice, why wouldn't that be a fair trade off?

The concern with this solution is that it would open up too many overpowered options for optimized builds, effectively turning assassins into something that most assassin fans don't seem to want.

And I'm of the opinion that sticking with that mentality only excludes assassination from content that other classes have no problem in. Sure, I can back off to a lower difficulty where I'll be assassination-viable and bored stiff. Or I can do as I am going to do and just run the EE *anyway*, still win, but just not be able to assassinate. So what, exactly, is the reason to stop me from doing it? How is the game better for it? You think I'm going to have some great incentive to farm as a result? That people will have more build choices? That I'm suddenly going to say, "It's totally worth running that adventure 10 times instead of 10 different adventures now!"

The difference between assassinate and other DC based builds in mid epic levels is primarily in the scaling of gear. Spell focus items progress throughout epics and there's also stacking augments as well as an epic feat. The solution is to spread out the bonuses currently available to assassinate so that it's not basically 0 from 20-27.

IMO, 60+ pages of assassin discussion and talks and bickering hasn't served the class very well: Marginal increases in assassination, defense, and dps with absolutely nothing that they can "hang their hat on".

Agreed. I'm hopeful that further improvements will be made before the update goes live, but I've been accused of being overly optimistic before.

[redoubt]

Assassins in Shadowdancer do about 1/3 as much damage as top tier (paladin/druid melee/barb). Those of you beating pugs without assassinate are running against sub-par builds. The reason you don't see top builds is that good builds can solo anything in the game (or prefer to run with guildies for fun) and have no reason to run with us lowly pugs. Check out 'Cetus' for Pally build and 'Eth' for Barb builds that will make your assassin look silly.

I think the ease of this game for top builds has moved the game to such a fast pace that assassins are going to be left somewhat behind no matter what the dev's do. Assassins shine when mob HP or challenge are high relative to character DPS/ability. The bard/barb/pally passes make it clear that challenge has been completely removed for top builds. Assassin play style does not jive with the 2 seconds it takes to kill an entire group of EE mobs. DC Assassins will be sub-par unless challenge is brought back to the game.

Some here want Assassin to have top tier (or maybe just mid-tier) DPS. For starters, we would need about an extra 50d6 Sneak Attack to be on the same playing field, and an extra 100d6 Sneak Attack to actually compete on a single mob. I am not joking with these numbers. Applying crit multipliers to SA damage may be the only reasonable way for assassins to have even moderate DPS in today's game. 30d6 Sneak Attack with a x3 multiplier on crit puts the damage into the usable range. I would guess my (current) 500-600 damage crits would be around 1000 with crit multiplier added. I think this would still be far behind top builds, but at least it is the type of change that players expect given recent bard/barb/pally passes. I am not personally advocating for a DPS increase, but I am showing the kind of change it would take to even matter.

Lastly, while players have been shown how to get effective assassinate DC's for current content on a first life toon, the latest Lamannia implementation may make DC assassins (the only kind of end game assassin given their lack of dps) extinct as of ToEE. I went in with DC 79 (with abishai cookies & yugo pots) and gave up on assassinate. I expect we will need a major DC boost through ToEE gear (+10 DC items), or we will have all wasted our time on this thread. ToEE currently has large numbers of low HP mobs with high DC's, making assassinate all but useless, but ideal for the Cleave/Burst DPS builds that seem to be excreting (fools ) gold these days...

No matter what Dev's do, I love playing my assassin as it exists now in current content. I have no desire to play the current top builds or to turn rogue into them. They lack any weakness or challenge. The only real fix for DC rogues is for challenge to return to the rest of the players, so that our signature ability can actually be useful.

100d6 is a big number... ouch. But I don't disagree. With sub-standard defense (monk is better in robes than assassin in light) and 2nd to last healing (only fighter is worse off), I think rogues should have much more DPS. But everyone has DPS, so how to you make it more "rogue-like" or more "assassin-like"?

1. Lethality is one. On a vorpal, do an assassinate check.

2. At to Measure the Foe: When at 5 stacks, orange named monsters are vulnerable to assassinate and monsters with DW and DB are 50% vulnerable (i.e. if the assassinate succeeds, roll 1d2 to see if it bypasses DW and DB)

3. Further increase sneak speed. An assassin appears out of nowhere and kills and this disappears again. I don't want more invisibility, but faster sneaking is how the assassin gets in and out before people notice him/her. I have no trouble believing that an elite assassin could move undetected at least as fast as a heavy plat wearing melee fighter (and if that happens to be a barbarian in heavy plate, then so be it.) Put in sneak speed penalties for medium and heavy armor if you want, but cloth and light armor assassins should be FAST. "That snail is fast!" kinda fast!

Both of these stick with assassinate based improvements instead of just making another DPS monster.

Then you need to go after the Shadow Dancer tree sooner, rather than later. A few initial ideas:
1. Shadow Mastery: You now have evasion. If you have evasion, you now have improved evasion. If you have improved evasion, you get +3 to reflex saves and no longer auto-fail on a 1. In addition, ...

2. In tier 1, stealthy is good because of the increase to assassinate DC. (Is Acrobatics good? I'm not sure, but do people actively tumble to get bonuses from it while fighting? Maybe its similar to the twitch thing.)

3. Escape Notice. Assuming this is primarily a rogue ED, why do we really care if it is the hide skill versus the diplomacy skill? My assassin has so many skill points that all the social skills are maxed anyway and with items like the ring of deceit, if I want to diplo, I can anyway. I would say to make this the ability to enter sneak and invisible, shed ALL agro and gain 50% stacking sneak speed for 3 seconds. Cannot attack for 3 seconds, but can take other actions.

4. Lithe. Also increase Maximum Dodge by either 1/2/3 or 2/4/6.

5. Skill mastery. Make it +5 to int and dex skills. Anything less and its not worth a point in an ED, they are just too valuable to spend on +1 even to all skills, again, rogues have TONS of skill points.

6. As I read through it again, very little adds to damage in this tree. Consider upping the cores to 2d6 sneak each.

7. Executioner's strike needs to use the higher of either INT or DEX. Scale the damage with 300% melee power.

8. Shadow form: Strength damage is useless with the high regen rate in epics. This damage needs either a longer timer before it wears off or make it something else. i.e. you have a 5% chance to cause the target to become confused by its shadow, entering a helpless state for 2 seconds.

9. I've never felt Dark Imbuement was worth taking. I only use unholy in ONE quest that I can think of. Compare this to Zeal in Divine Crusader (which is free!) and it pales (badly) by comparison. Does anyone find it useful? I'm hesitant to say to scrap it because I've never used it, so I'd like to hear from people who have first.

10. Add more fort bypass somewhere. "You are a creature of shadow and like the shadows you slip between the armor of your opponent and hit their weak spots."

11. Tier 4 is sparse. Add something there. Maybe a stun. "Handle to the head. When flanking (or maybe when eligible for sneak attack), you have a 5% chance to hit your opponent in the back of the head with the handle of your weapon, creating a stunned state for 2 seconds."

I know there are lots more out there...

[Ayseifn]

If Combat Mastery was changed to affect assassinate DC it would be a huge buff. The highest +DC bonus from item you can get is +4 at lvl 27 on hard to get items. Now, look at Combat Mastery. You can get +5 at lvl 20 with practically no grind (Spare Hand for Challenges). That's why it's not a good idea.

The best way to go are yellow augments. Like others say, make a stacking +1 DC at lvl 20 and +1 every 4 lvls and it will be enough.

Combat Mastery is also the same bonus type as Know the Angles, so like +15 DC if you have 70 int.

[HuneyMunster]

100d6 is a big number... ouch. But I don't disagree. With sub-standard defense (monk is better in robes than assassin in light) and 2nd to last healing (only fighter is worse off), I think rogues should have much more DPS. But everyone has DPS, so how to you make it more "rogue-like" or more "assassin-like"?

1. Lethality is one. On a vorpal, do an assassinate check.

2. At to Measure the Foe: When at 5 stacks, orange named monsters are vulnerable to assassinate and monsters with DW and DB are 50% vulnerable (i.e. if the assassinate succeeds, roll 1d2 to see if it bypasses DW and DB)

3. Further increase sneak speed. An assassin appears out of nowhere and kills and this disappears again. I don't want more invisibility, but faster sneaking is how the assassin gets in and out before people notice him/her. I have no trouble believing that an elite assassin could move undetected at least as fast as a heavy plat wearing melee fighter (and if that happens to be a barbarian in heavy plate, then so be it.) Put in sneak speed penalties for medium and heavy armor if you want, but cloth and light armor assassins should be FAST. "That snail is fast!" kinda fast!

Both of these stick with assassinate based improvements instead of just making another DPS monster.

Then you need to go after the Shadow Dancer tree sooner, rather than later. A few initial ideas:
1. Shadow Mastery: You now have evasion. If you have evasion, you now have improved evasion. If you have improved evasion, you get +3 to reflex saves and no longer auto-fail on a 1. In addition, ...

2. In tier 1, stealthy is good because of the increase to assassinate DC. (Is Acrobatics good? I'm not sure, but do people actively tumble to get bonuses from it while fighting? Maybe its similar to the twitch thing.)

3. Escape Notice. Assuming this is primarily a rogue ED, why do we really care if it is the hide skill versus the diplomacy skill? My assassin has so many skill points that all the social skills are maxed anyway and with items like the ring of deceit, if I want to diplo, I can anyway. I would say to make this the ability to enter sneak and invisible, shed ALL agro and gain 50% stacking sneak speed for 3 seconds. Cannot attack for 3 seconds, but can take other actions.

4. Lithe. Also increase Maximum Dodge by either 1/2/3 or 2/4/6.

5. Skill mastery. Make it +5 to int and dex skills. Anything less and its not worth a point in an ED, they are just too valuable to spend on +1 even to all skills, again, rogues have TONS of skill points.

6. As I read through it again, very little adds to damage in this tree. Consider upping the cores to 2d6 sneak each.

7. Executioner's strike needs to use the higher of either INT or DEX. Scale the damage with 300% melee power.

8. Shadow form: Strength damage is useless with the high regen rate in epics. This damage needs either a longer timer before it wears off or make it something else. i.e. you have a 5% chance to cause the target to become confused by its shadow, entering a helpless state for 2 seconds.

9. I've never felt Dark Imbuement was worth taking. I only use unholy in ONE quest that I can think of. Compare this to Zeal in Divine Crusader (which is free!) and it pales (badly) by comparison. Does anyone find it useful? I'm hesitant to say to scrap it because I've never used it, so I'd like to hear from people who have first.

10. Add more fort bypass somewhere. "You are a creature of shadow and like the shadows you slip between the armor of your opponent and hit their weak spots."

11. Tier 4 is sparse. Add something there. Maybe a stun. "Handle to the head. When flanking (or maybe when eligible for sneak attack), you have a 5% chance to hit your opponent in the back of the head with the handle of your weapon, creating a stunned state for 2 seconds."

I know there are lots more out there...

How long ago was the survey that included Epic Destinies to determine which are strong and which are weak? Must have been a year or so now.

I know Shadowdancer was rated one of the worst. You do more sneak attack damage in LD while Blitzing due to MP than in Shadowdancer and as well as your overall damage your crits on 19-20 are double the size of those in SD.

Shadow Mastery could allow SA dmg to crit.

Shadow Training II movement speed could do with a shorter cd

Shadow walk could be replaced with shadow jaunt and also reduces the cd for Shadai kai

Improved Invisibility should provide Displacement when used instead of having to wait 10, 20 or 30sec before getting the effect. Other option is that it provides an additional 25 incorp when in Shadow Form followed by the displacement when it expires.

[CThruTheEgo]

It's been a few days. Have you all caught up on the threads and discussed the latest assassin feedback? Can we possibly get an update about your current thinking based on that feedback? What further changes are you all planning to implement or at least considering? How is the problem of assassins being near last in self healing, defenses, and dps (and the lack of utility of trapping to make up for such weaknesses) going to be handled? Thanks again for the discussion Sev.

[CThruTheEgo]

I think the ease of this game for top builds has moved the game to such a fast pace that assassins are going to be left somewhat behind no matter what the dev's do. Assassins shine when mob HP or challenge are high relative to character DPS/ability. The bard/barb/pally passes make it clear that challenge has been completely removed for top builds. Assassin play style does not jive with the 2 seconds it takes to kill an entire group of EE mobs. DC Assassins will be sub-par unless challenge is brought back to the game.

...snip...

No matter what Dev's do, I love playing my assassin as it exists now in current content. I have no desire to play the current top builds or to turn rogue into them. They lack any weakness or challenge. The only real fix for DC rogues is for challenge to return to the rest of the players, so that our signature ability can actually be useful.

Well said and I completely agree.

Lastly, while players have been shown how to get effective assassinate DC's for current content on a first life toon, the latest Lamannia implementation may make DC assassins (the only kind of end game assassin given their lack of dps) extinct as of ToEE. I went in with DC 79 (with abishai cookies & yugo pots) and gave up on assassinate. I expect we will need a major DC boost through ToEE gear (+10 DC items), or we will have all wasted our time on this thread. ToEE currently has large numbers of low HP mobs with high DC's, making assassinate all but useless, but ideal for the Cleave/Burst DPS builds that seem to be excreting (fools ) gold these days...

Was this in the first Lamannia release, or later? They said they were going to reduce saves in there and I'm just wondering how much of a difference that made.

[brzytki]

Combat Mastery is also the same bonus type as Know the Angles, so like +15 DC if you have 70 int.

Right, totally forgot about it. It would be a tremendous boost, so definitely shouldn't happen.

Was this in the first Lamannia release, or later? They said they were going to reduce saves in there and I'm just wondering how much of a difference that made.

They did reduce the saves:

• Temple Cultists are designed to be pretty weak on saving throws. On Epic Elite shouldn't have any saving throw over 50. Some of their saves are as low as 37 on Epic Elite. Unless you are getting Dungeon Alert, which does increase saving throws, or if they are getting buffed by some other enemies or something along those lines. (This is taking into account their natural bonuses from DEX, CON, and WIS, of course.)
• All guards and cultists are intended to have Will saves below 40, on Epic Elite.
• Confirmation from many other players that Cultists consistently fail DC 70+ checks for all three saving throw types would be useful. Or for other monsters, but the more specific the better. (Note that "archers" is sort of useful but still ambiguous.)
  
• Nearly all non-boss, non-miniboss monsters have only one saving throw above 50 (on EE); that strong save might be in the 60s, so if you are attacking that save with a 70 DC wouldn't succeed a great deal. (But if you attack the other saves a 70 DC would be expected to succeed nearly all the time.)
• Minibosses often have one save in the 40s, one in the 50s, and one in the 60s.

What's interesting though, is the info about monsters having an additional +6/4/2 to saves against magic depending on their HP (100% HP/>75%/>50%) on EE and similar bonus but smaller on EH.

About the assassin's DPS. Today before i ETR'd, i ran two DPS tests in Cabal on my fully decked out human assassin (64+ INT, KtA, haste/damage boost, 7 MP (Harper), 14% alacrity, OC, ISA, Tensers, twisted Sense Weakness, TF (vulnerability/fort reduction/MF)+Agony, 20%+ doublestrike (obviously not from Killer lol).
The first one was in SD, so (not counting +[W] attacks) 6d6 SA, 3% doublestrike, 24 MP cores, Shadow Mastery's 5% physical vulnerability from Shadowdancer added to my DPS score. I had nearly 2,450k DPS (2,448 to be exact but let's round it a little).
The second test was in LD, so (again, not counting any +[W] attacks cause i didn't have PA anyway) 18 MP cores, cooldown reduction, +1[W], +6 seeker, +5 damage (advancing blows), +1 crit multi on 19-20, 70 MP (blitz). I had nearly 3,4k DPS (3,375 to be exact) but i forgot to scroll Tensers, which means i was at BAB 19 as opposed to the previous test. That's 1k DPS difference between those two EDs and 2k DPS difference between my rogue in LD and top DPS barb/palies in LD. And we are still talking about single target and a non-helpless monster.

[CThruTheEgo]

They did reduce the saves:

What's interesting though, is the info about monsters having an additional +6/4/2 to saves against magic depending on their HP (100% HP/>75%/>50%) on EE and similar bonus but smaller on EH.

Thanks for the link. I've not kept up with all the relevant Lamannia threads.

About the assassin's DPS. Today before i ETR'd, i ran two DPS tests in Cabal on my fully decked out human assassin (64+ INT, KtA, haste/damage boost, 7 MP (Harper), 14% alacrity, OC, ISA, Tensers, twisted Sense Weakness, TF (vulnerability/fort reduction/MF)+Agony, 20%+ doublestrike (obviously not from Killer lol).
The first one was in SD, so (not counting +[W] attacks) 6d6 SA, 3% doublestrike, 24 MP cores, Shadow Mastery's 5% physical vulnerability from Shadowdancer added to my DPS score. I had nearly 2,450k DPS (2,448 to be exact but let's round it a little).
The second test was in LD, so (again, not counting any +[W] attacks cause i didn't have PA anyway) 18 MP cores, cooldown reduction, +1[W], +6 seeker, +5 damage (advancing blows), +1 crit multi on 19-20, 70 MP (blitz). I had nearly 3,4k DPS (3,375 to be exact) but i forgot to scroll Tensers, which means i was at BAB 19 as opposed to the previous test. That's 1k DPS difference between those two EDs and 2k DPS difference between my rogue in LD and top DPS barb/palies in LD. And we are still talking about single target and a non-helpless monster.

Great info. Let's not forget, however, that rogue's have additional out-of-combat utility like trapping and UMD to make up for that 2-3k dps difference.

Sarcasm aside, something needs to be done. Most seem to agree that improving self healing or defenses would alter the unique playstyle. I tend to agree with nokowi's assessment that the best solution is to make the game challenging again for top builds, but realistically the only way to do that is to scale back those builds, and that's just not going to happen. Increasing the challenge of content would just leave other builds that don't match the top builds that much further behind. So the only viable solution seems to be to increase assassin dps by a significant amount.

[redoubt]

So the only viable solution seems to be to increase assassin dps by a significant amount.

Its a two edged dagger... if we push up to actually good dps, then we get agro, which further shows our extreme lack of defense and healing. This, yes again, brings me around to more and faster ways to insta-kill. Dead mobs don't hit back.

How much dps would be added by doing things like allowing Lethality to trigger an assassinate check on a vorpal? If it is too much, gate it with a cool down timer. You don't get the super big numbers across the screen, but you become more effective.

[CThruTheEgo]

Its a two edged dagger... if we push up to actually good dps, then we get agro, which further shows our extreme lack of defense and healing. This, yes again, brings me around to more and faster ways to insta-kill. Dead mobs don't hit back.

How much dps would be added by doing things like allowing Lethality to trigger an assassinate check on a vorpal? If it is too much, gate it with a cool down timer. You don't get the super big numbers across the screen, but you become more effective.

I completely agree with this. A dps increase to assassins does not have to take the form of raw dps. The goal is to make them more effective at taking out targets to offset their lack of self healing, defenses, and "utility." More ways to instakill would certainly fit the theme as well.

[BigErkyKid]

Thanks for the link. I've not kept up with all the relevant Lamannia threads.



Great info. Let's not forget, however, that rogue's have additional out-of-combat utility like trapping and UMD to make up for that 2-3k dps difference.

Sarcasm aside, something needs to be done. Most seem to agree that improving self healing or defenses would alter the unique playstyle. I tend to agree with nokowi's assessment that the best solution is to make the game challenging again for top builds, but realistically the only way to do that is to scale back those builds, and that's just not going to happen. Increasing the challenge of content would just leave other builds that don't match the top builds that much further behind. So the only viable solution seems to be to increase assassin dps by a significant amount.

Oh well, I guess you missed the 8K record by a DC paladin in the Cabal test.

From the TA side of the street, we share your sorrow fellow assassins.

Unlikely we see any change if it is going live so soon.

[draven1]

Its a two edged dagger... if we push up to actually good dps, then we get agro, which further shows our extreme lack of defense and healing. This, yes again, brings me around to more and faster ways to insta-kill. Dead mobs don't hit back.

We can have more usage of aggro management tools like diplo, bluff, deception, blind, shadow dagger, sap for that situation.
Also, we can have more aggro reduction enhancement for more DPS. So, it's not a problem at all.

How much dps would be added by doing things like allowing Lethality to trigger an assassinate check on a vorpal? If it is too much, gate it with a cool down timer. You don't get the super big numbers across the screen, but you become more effective.

Don't forget you can't assassinate RED named. I prefer SA crit on Lethality to another assassinate chance on Lethality. It will give more DPS against red named, bosses. We can have another assassinate-like ability on 'Execute' or 'Executioner's strike'.

Instakill on normal swings have very long nerf history(Vorpal, Nightmare, Wounding & Puncturing weapons).
We don't need to add more.

[CThruTheEgo]

I prefer SA crit on Lethality to another assassinate chance on Lethality. It will give more DPS against red named, bosses. We can have another assassinate-like ability on 'Execute' or 'Executioner's strike'.

I'd be fine with this as well. The current proposed change to execute makes it just as worthless as it currently is on live imo. So that could definitely use some improvement and making it an actual instakill ability would thematically fit the name.

[nokowi]

Its a two edged dagger... if we push up to actually good dps, then we get agro, which further shows our extreme lack of defense and healing. This, yes again, brings me around to more and faster ways to insta-kill. Dead mobs don't hit back.

How much dps would be added by doing things like allowing Lethality to trigger an assassinate check on a vorpal? If it is too much, gate it with a cool down timer. You don't get the super big numbers across the screen, but you become more effective.

I would like dps to happen. You get too much agro, you get attacked, you might die (hello diplo!). This is where the choice of how much damage to deal becomes important. A rogue succeeds in D&D through stealth or in attacking foes already in combat. High dps rewards you for attacking enemies already engaged in combat. It gives more build choices, because threat reduction and better defense are build choices. It also requires the most player skill to make these decisions correctly. We used to have this.

To me, Lethality is a separate issue. I would take anything at this point.

[brzytki]

Lethality should definitely be improved. Vorpal or 100 damage if >1k hp as a 5th core is too out-dated. The idea is good but the really low HP limit and laughable not-scaling-with-MP damage just kills this ability. I'd change it so that each epic level increases both the HP limit (by another 1k) and damage (by another 100, MP-scalable). That way at cap we have a vorpal if HP <9k and 900 damage if HP>9k. I think it would be fine that way. It would both give some much needed DPS boost and preserve the "killer" factor of the PrE.

SA crits should definitely be implemented. But i don't think it should be put in the heroic enhancements as it would give too much power there. I think the best place for it is Shadowdancer: 5th or 6th core or as a passive in a NEW epic moment.

Oh well, I guess you missed the 8K record by a DC paladin in the Cabal test.

My God... link plz?

[nokowi]

Was this in the first Lamannia release, or later? They said they were going to reduce saves in there and I'm just wondering how much of a difference that made.

Oops. My bad.

I vowed never to return to ToEE but it looks like you are correct. DC 73 worked fine. DC's might even be too low, as I didn't establish a floor. Mob damage is way up (woot!). I should have recorded that solo video before the changes

[Severlin]

It's been a few days. Have you all caught up on the threads and discussed the latest assassin feedback? Can we possibly get an update about your current thinking based on that feedback? What further changes are you all planning to implement or at least considering? How is the problem of assassins being near last in self healing, defenses, and dps (and the lack of utility of trapping to make up for such weaknesses) going to be handled? Thanks again for the discussion Sev.

Right now we are going through the player feedback and DPS videos. We are seeing different results (Assassins are closer to the top builds) and we need more time to figure out why.

Our plan is to take the time to recreate the tests we are seeing and make changes based on those, but we will need a couple of weeks to do that. We have a patch planned in 2-3 weeks where we will be doing more changes to rogues.

For now we changed Assassinate to 12 seconds and boosted Melee Power by a total of 10 by boosted the 4th and 5th cores by 10 each.

Sev~

[brzytki]

So apparently, U25 goes live on 6th April and these are the assassin changes that will go live:

We want more time to see Rogues in action before we take big steps. Our internal tests show them performing well, so there is a disconnect between us and the players. Because of this we will do some small tweaks and then do a follow up pass in the next patch in 2-3 weeks.

Our current changes from Lamannia based on player feedback:
~ Assassin will get 10 Melee Power added to the cores; 5 at 12 and 5 at 18.
~ Assassinate will be reduced to a 12 second cooldown.

...

Assassins are really doing a lot of DPS in our internal tests, but we understand the players have concerns so we will bump them a little bit now and do a follow up pass.

Sev~

[HuneyMunster]

Right now we are going through the player feedback and DPS videos. We are seeing different results (Assassins are closer to the top builds) and we need more time to figure out why.

Our plan is to take the time to recreate the tests we are seeing and make changes based on those, but we will need a couple of weeks to do that. We have a patch planned in 2-3 weeks where we will be doing more changes to rogues.

For now we changed Assassinate to 12 seconds and boosted Melee Power by a total of 10 by boosted the 4th and 5th cores by 10 each.

Sev~

Would you be able to say if you are gonna be able to take a look at Shadowdancer in the near future? I think a dev (might have been yourself) mention that an arti destiny was being thought of. Also I am gonna presume another may be introduced along with warlock. Would it be possible to at the same time look at other under performing destinies?

[draven1]

Right now we are going through the player feedback and DPS videos. We are seeing different results (Assassins are closer to the top builds) and we need more time to figure out why.

Our plan is to take the time to recreate the tests we are seeing and make changes based on those, but we will need a couple of weeks to do that. We have a patch planned in 2-3 weeks where we will be doing more changes to rogues.

For now we changed Assassinate to 12 seconds and boosted Melee Power by a total of 10 by boosted the 4th and 5th cores by 10 each.

Sev~

For reference, Here's DPS chart from 2011. I tried to find another recent DPS chart, but I couldn't.
TWF pure rogue on 0% fort mob was literally THE TOP DPS in DDO by huge margin. Sadly, it's not now.
Because, SA aren't affected by crit. And shadowdancer is so bad for DPS now.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...onsidering-DPS