Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Bobby88888]

I can get behind all these ideas.

For optimal stealth play, players will come in and out of stealth for max efficiency. This style of play takes the most skill, because your choices have huge consequences and there are a huge number of play options. Right now, roughly 1/2 of kills come from assassinate and 1/2 from DPS. I would like to add that I feel it is important to preserve this ratio so that a very skilled play style can still exist.

If the assassinate timer is dropped to 12 seconds (this is needed), DPS should be boosted by about 20% as well. This gives each and every play style a 20% boost. DPS should come from additional sneak attack (preserving the same weaknesses with undead, constructs, etc), not melee power.

There are really easy ways to add dps. I suggest changing each sneak attack from Assassin Tree to 2d6 (costing 2 AP) and changing Shadowdancer to 2d6 Sneak attack core per rank.

A stealth assassin would receive 9d6 more SA. I think I have around 25d6 SA right now.

34 vs 25 is a 36% boost in SA damage. Roughly 1/2 of damage comes from SA (the rest is from base weap + effects) netting a 18% increase in overall damage.

These 2 changes (more SA dice + 12 sec timer) can give assassin the boost it needs without any major design changes, and without harming any existing play styles. These numbers show that 10d6 additional sneak attack is not the huge boost that dev's seem to think it is (it is only a ~20% bump in dps).

I would separately suggest that 1 SA die every rogue level as an alternate fix, but I see that enhancement changes are preferred over class changes right now.

I agree with this though I think saying half damage comes form SA is a bit of an exaggeration. with 29d6 SA damage I find a little over 1/3 of my damage comes from SA when it should be at least half if not more.

While tying to Rogue levels sounds like a good idea it doesn't give Assassins much of a leg up to catch up to mechs and TAs unless it was a higher level or Tier 5 enhancement to make it 1/Rogue level. Sneak Attack Training and/or the cores however are a good spot to add more.

[Powerhungry]

I agree with General Gronker and nokowi; I am really not seeing an issue with Assassin in the earlier heroic levels. My concern is more overall DPS later on.

Sev~

'Later on' would indicate epic levels to me. (so a 20+ character)
Improve the capstone. Add another +1 crit multiplier and threat range (yes, this is in addition too and stacks with the bonuses from knife specialization).
Add +4 to assassinate.
This is not OP (IMO) and will be restricted to pure 20 rogues.
Allow 5% fort bypass per core enhancement (more crits and SA will land)
Assassinate should work on any target that Coup de Grace works on.
As one poster pointed out, currently an assassin needs to spread points into both DEX and INT to be effective. All of the defensive enhancements in the assassin tree are geared towards damage avoidance (which is DEX based), yet assassinate (the very definition of the class - requires INT). So you either gimp your survivability or your assassinate. Since the defensive enhancements are DEX based, make assassinate DEX based. Why is a bards CdG based on perform? What does having a high charisma have to do with killing someone in one hit? At least a DEX based assassinate can be logically argued. (Game Master - "You twist your arm into an almost unearthly shape and angle, but somehow manage to find the slightest opening near the neckline in the fallen paladin's full plate armor, killing him instantly.") - (While the bard looks on in amazement, playing his lute in the corner...)

[Slasheboy]

'Later on' would indicate epic levels to me. (so a 20+ character)
Improve the capstone. Add another +1 crit multiplier and threat range (yes, this is in addition too and stacks with the bonuses from knife specialization).
Add +4 to assassinate.
This is not OP (IMO) and will be restricted to pure 20 rogues.
Allow 5% fort bypass per core enhancement (more crits and SA will land)
Assassinate should work on any target that Coup de Grace works on.
As one poster pointed out, currently an assassin needs to spread points into both DEX and INT to be effective. All of the defensive enhancements in the assassin tree are geared towards damage avoidance (which is DEX based), yet assassinate (the very definition of the class - requires INT). So you either gimp your survivability or your assassinate. Since the defensive enhancements are DEX based, make assassinate DEX based. Why is a bards CdG based on perform? What does having a high charisma have to do with killing someone in one hit? At least a DEX based assassinate can be logically argued. (Game Master - "You twist your arm into an almost unearthly shape and angle, but somehow manage to find the slightest opening near the neckline in the fallen paladin's full plate armor, killing him instantly.") - (While the bard looks on in amazement, playing his lute in the corner...)

This. I would like this.

Having fort bybass (maybe sneak attack immunity bypass as well) in the cores would go great ways to help both mid level and epic level rogues to kill all those accursed undead which seem to resist everything we throw at them.

Freeing up builds to choose between dex and int (by making the first 2 cores multiselector as well as assasinate and the various abilities would free up any builds without causing much imbalance, since there aren't much ways to improve dex or int compared to str.

Another thing to consider is to move dex to ac to a higher modifer - 1.5 or 2.0 to ac. After the ac/prr pass, all the monk and other dex based light armor builds were completely hosed in terms of attaining usable AC, while heavy armor users were laughing all the way to the bank. I mean, we even have to deal with max dex bonus while getting a pittance in damage mitigation to show for it, and dex/ac wasn't easy to raise to begin with. Consider changing monk's wis to ac ratio while you're at it.

[Powerhungry]

This. I would like this.

Having fort bybass (maybe sneak attack immunity bypass as well) in the cores would go great ways to help both mid level and epic level rogues to kill all those accursed undead which seem to resist everything we throw at them.

Freeing up builds to choose between dex and int (by making the first 2 cores multiselector as well as assasinate and the various abilities would free up any builds without causing much imbalance, since there aren't much ways to improve dex or int compared to str.

Another thing to consider is to move dex to ac to a higher modifer - 1.5 or 2.0 to ac. After the ac/prr pass, all the monk and other dex based light armor builds were completely hosed in terms of attaining usable AC, while heavy armor users were laughing all the way to the bank. I mean, we even have to deal with max dex bonus while getting a pittance in damage mitigation to show for it, and dex/ac wasn't easy to raise to begin with. Consider changing monk's wis to ac ratio while you're at it.

Fort bypass does render the target vulnerable to SA damage. It also make undead vulnerable to SA.

[slarden]

This really needs to be addressed. Yes, a proper pure rogue will have both UMD and scroll mastery, but then what? Worked fine in the old L20 content (ToD, LoB, Hox), but the game has moved on. What rogue has the concentration skill check to use those heal scrolls while being beaten on? What the devs need to remember here is that "healers" do NOT exist anymore. So, run into epic cabal and hang out in a cloud of glitterdust with a wad of heal scrolls in hand until you drop dead of physical damage whilst the scattered remains of those heal scrolls are pounded to pulp by barefoot hobgoblins? But wait, I had Nimbleness...why...

You want to skip this, fine, but make the changes to the trickery and the dps so awesome that even the bards and pallies will feel motivated to heal the new rogues. Go glass cannon if you must, but don't forget the cannon part of things.

If Rogues had the equivalent of the "quicken" ability on scrolls - scroll healing would be effective. At end game scroll healing is something you do between fights and not during a fight.

[burningwind]

I agree with General Gronker and nokowi; I am really not seeing an issue with Assassin in the earlier heroic levels. My concern is more overall DPS later on.

Sev~

and the reason is very simple, but epic level does not affect these dc at all! other then equipment wise.

DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier just wouldn't do with epic enemy have dramatic rise in their ability and save.

maybe dc 10+ rogue level + (epic level X2) + int mod +equipment might do. also this should be done to all dc base ability in the enhancement tree, not just assassin dc.

[dualscissors]

This is only true for top-tier, no-fail assassinate assassins. *They* might get half of their kills from assassinate (depends how they prioritize their fighting and what risks they are willing to take... which, of course, is greatly diminished by being no-fail.) And the 12 second timer will disproportionately assist them as well. ...

Short of running a 28/32 point build or running significantly under level, there isn't a vast difference between a pure assassin that is "top tier" vs. one that is moderately developed with respect to DCs. The top tier assassin will have acquired a +11 Int item vs. having a +10 loot gen. Top tier assassins will have +3 Insightful Int vs. a more common +2 augment. Exceptional INT +1 might not be in a newer assassin's gear set. A top tier assassin may have a +4 Mythic Muffled Veneer but my observation is more have only scrounged up the +2. APs and ED points applied toward INT, Measure the Foe, and Stealthy are more or less the same for a seasoned assassin and a less developed toon.

Where a lot of attempts are tested and the data is recorded, I'm not seeing where the two assassin types span such a large gap as "no fail" to missing most of the time. Now if the lesser assassin isn't slotting a +8 Int item or a +10 Int item when they can and are coasting on sub-par gear so they don't have to bother swapping at the bank, then I could see the loss being more pronounced.

[General_Gronker]

Allow 5% fort bypass per core enhancement (more crits and SA will land)

No
No
NO
No more fortification bypass. That's not how fortification is supposed to work, **** it! No, the amount of Fort available to players and monsters needs to be reduced.

[Full_Bleed]

Short of running a 28/32 point build or running significantly under level, there isn't a vast difference between a pure assassin that is "top tier" vs. one that is moderately developed with respect to DCs. The top tier assassin will have acquired a +11 Int item vs. having a +10 loot gen. Top tier assassins will have +3 Insightful Int vs. a more common +2 augment. Exceptional INT +1 might not be in a newer assassin's gear set. A top tier assassin may have a +4 Mythic Muffled Veneer but my observation is more have only scrounged up the +2. APs and ED points applied toward INT, Measure the Foe, and Stealthy are more or less the same for a seasoned assassin and a less developed toon.

Where a lot of attempts are tested and the data is recorded, I'm not seeing where the two assassin types span such a large gap as "no fail" to missing most of the time. Now if the lesser assassin isn't slotting a +8 Int item or a +10 Int item when they can and are coasting on sub-par gear so they don't have to bother swapping at the bank, then I could see the loss being more pronounced.

There are completionist bonuses. Extra twists. MIN/MAX racial bonuses. Heck, assuming that everyone has all twists and maxed destinies isn't legit. Yugo pots that not everyone has. And gear allows you to dump more AP and DP into INT than a lesser geared individual who would be seriously gimp otherwise. You start adding that all up and some of the things you mentioned and it is significant. And, frankly, I am probably missing some things.

[BigErkyKid]

To be honest Sev, it feels like assassins are not getting much of an update. Yes, there are a few minor changes and tweaks, but nothing major like we've seen with every other revamp. That's disappointing. The bottom line is that assassins have the weakest defenses of any class, as well as the second worst self healing (only fighters are behind them), and still have considerably lower damage than the revamped classes. As I've said before, I don't want assassins turned into an easy button and their defenses and self healing are not what should be improved, but their dps definitely should be. Plenty of suggestions have been made about how to improve their dps. More sneak attack dice (a lot more), make sneak attack damage affected by 200% melee power, make sneak attack damage crittable, more instakills, reduce the cooldown of assassinate – any or some of these would bring them up to the offensive capability they should be at for the amount of defensive capability they lack. Improving their defensive and/or self healing would change their unique playstyle and that's a bad thing. But improving their dps would not change their playstyle. Assassins have always been a glass cannon kind of build, but they've lost the cannon and don't seem to be getting that back with this revamp.

You said previously that assassins were getting a lot of little dps boosts, like deadly strikes, and that those would add up. But altogether they are very costly and won't add up to be worth the investment. As others have mentioned in the Lamannia thread, melee power from harper will be the better investment. Venomed blades, bleed them out, and the poisons are all too weak to be worth the points. The poisons are inneffective and weakening strikes and deadly strikes are not worth the total cost to get them.

To put things into perspective: bards were granted the ability to effectively fulfill every capability in the game (dps, instakills, AoE dps, CC, damage mitigation, damage avoidance, tanking, self healing, group healing, party support) on a single build (see The Count of Monte Cristo in my sig for an example of such a build); paladins were granted top tier dps, defenses, and self healing, so much so that they don't need to to perform any other function; barbs were given self healing, that's right, self healing on the most non self sufficient class in the game. Assassins are being given some minor dps boosts which are not nearly enough and are too costly, a minor defensive boost in the form of more damage avoidance which was not needed in the first place, and 2 assassinate DCs which frees up only 8 AP, 8 ED points, or some combination of the two, neither of which is going to provide a great deal of improvement. I'm not sure why assassins are getting the shaft here. What is the reason for keeping them behind in every area? If it goes through like this, I have to wonder why you bothered to revamp assassins at all.

This is true for the TA changes too, it is a general feeling that the upgrade to rogues was weak. and not exciting.

I can get behind all these ideas.

For optimal stealth play, players will come in and out of stealth for max efficiency. This style of play takes the most skill, because your choices have huge consequences and there are a huge number of play options. Right now, roughly 1/2 of kills come from assassinate and 1/2 from DPS. I would like to add that I feel it is important to preserve this ratio so that a very skilled play style can still exist.

If the assassinate timer is dropped to 12 seconds (this is needed), DPS should be boosted by about 20% as well. This gives each and every play style a 20% boost. DPS should come from additional sneak attack (preserving the same weaknesses with undead, constructs, etc), not melee power.

There are really easy ways to add dps. I suggest changing each sneak attack from Assassin Tree to 2d6 (costing 2 AP) and changing Shadowdancer to 2d6 Sneak attack core per rank.

A stealth assassin would receive 9d6 more SA. I think I have around 25d6 SA right now.

34 vs 25 is a 36% boost in SA damage. Roughly 1/2 of damage comes from SA (the rest is from base weap + effects) netting a 18% increase in overall damage.

These 2 changes (more SA dice + 12 sec timer) can give assassin the boost it needs without any major design changes, and without harming any existing play styles. These numbers show that 10d6 additional sneak attack is not the huge boost that dev's seem to think it is (it is only a ~20% bump in dps).

I would separately suggest that 1 SA die every rogue level as an alternate fix, but I see that enhancement changes are preferred over class changes right now.

SA has not been upgraded in the longest time. If it was balanced a few years ago, it is obvious that it is not given the current non vanilla upgrades to crit profiles many classes got. My preferred solution would be to let SA crit. After all, it is meant to be sort of a crit (additional damage from striking an unsuspecting opponent in a weak spot).

The instakills are not that sweet anymore in a game were in 15 seconds some classes cleave a room to death. I would not feel that a 6 secs cool down (keeping current requirements) would be too much.

[HuneyMunster]

and the reason is very simple, but epic level does not affect these dc at all! other then equipment wise.

DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier just wouldn't do with epic enemy have dramatic rise in their ability and save.

maybe dc 10+ rogue level + (epic level X2) + int mod +equipment might do. also this should be done to all dc base ability in the enhancement tree, not just assassin dc.

dc 10+ rogue level + (epic level X2) + int mod +equipment might

Adding +16(20 at 30) would be too much from epic levels. Maybe epic level/2 would work for +4 at 28 and +5 at 30.

Another option would be to improve shadow dagger. Give it a 1d1/1d2/1d3or4 per rank neg levels and allow it to not break sneak so it can be used as an opener and increase the blind save to also add epic levels to the dc. This could also be applied to Shadow Lance from Shadowdancer with a neg levels per shadow charge to prevent it from being twisted by necro casters.

[CThruTheEgo]

There are completionist bonuses. Extra twists. MIN/MAX racial bonuses. Heck, assuming that everyone has all twists and maxed destinies isn't legit. Yugo pots that not everyone has. And gear allows you to dump more AP and DP into INT than a lesser geared individual who would be seriously gimp otherwise. You start adding that all up and some of the things you mentioned and it is significant. And, frankly, I am probably missing some things.

We've already had this discussion and you're exaggerating the issue, as can be seen from the linked post where I provided a breakdown of everything that is easily and reasonably obtainable with minimal effort. What I took from that discussion was that you want a DC based ability that you don't have to build for. You seem to be in the minority with that preference and, personally, I'm glad that's the case because I don't want everything to be an easy button. There is currently only one DC based ability that requires no effort to build for top tier effectiveness – coup de grace – and Sev described that ability as "overperforming," which means you probably shouldn't expect similar mechanics in the future and it's definitely not a standard to which other abilities should be held.

I'd be curious to know details (e.g. feats, level split, race, enhancements, destiny info, twists, etc.) about your assassin you mentioned above with a less than 50% chance to assassinate in EEs. What EEs are you talking about? What's your full gear layout? If that's the results you are getting, then you've probably got a lot of room for improvement. Discussions in a vacuum don't really amount to much to be honest. Contextual specifics can help illustrate the problem.

[Jetrule]

and the reason is very simple, but epic level does not affect these dc at all! other then equipment wise.

DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier just wouldn't do with epic enemy have dramatic rise in their ability and save.

maybe dc 10+ rogue level + (epic level X2) + int mod +equipment might do. also this should be done to all dc base ability in the enhancement tree, not just assassin dc.

I so agree that every dc ability in the tree should benefit from anything that boosts assassination dc. poisions and shadow dagger become viable options if we do this.

[redoubt]

Severlin,

You have 3 of the best known rogue advocates all saying this doesn't go far enough.

To be honest Sev,

Let's also not forget

I can get behind all these ideas.
There are really easy ways to add dps. I suggest changing each sneak attack from Assassin Tree to 2d6 (costing 2 AP) and changing Shadowdancer to 2d6 Sneak attack core per rank.

There are a plethora of ideas within this thread, some include:

1. improved SA
2. lethality allowing SA crits OR an assassinate check
3. letting the stacks of MtF, killer, and nimbleness expire one at a time.
4. nimbleness increasing MDB while active
...

[Full_Bleed]

We've already had this discussion and you're exaggerating the issue, as can be seen from the linked post where I provided a breakdown of everything that is easily and reasonably obtainable with minimal effort.

No, the problem is you've made some faulty assumptions that I do not find reflective of the game and I got tired of pointing them out.

I don't want to play semantic games with you on words like "minimal effort". Just because something can be achieved, doesn't mean it's how the game is played and that the sacrifices made make as much sense to others as it might make to you and your build. Especially to under-geared (or "normal geared" I should say) players.

When you have the myopic view of a character geared as the top forum builds in the game are, it's tough to have a reasonable discussion with them.

Especially when they say stuff like:

What I took from that discussion was that you want a DC based ability that you don't have to build for. You seem to be in the minority with that preference and, personally, I'm glad that's the case because I don't want everything to be an easy button.

Once someone starts throwing around those kinds of accusations and framing my arguments as such, the discussion is pretty much done for me. I've got better things to do with my time. But that's not going to stop me from raising some issues when the 5%'ers keep pushing for things that are largely going to benefit them.

For the millionth time: The assertion that no-fail assassination somehow turns the ASSSASSIN class into an *easy button* class is BS. You can't have it both ways. You can't say that it's easy to get no-fail and then turn around and act like once you get it, with "minimal effort", that the class is now an "easy button" class. That's bad logic. There are a lot of easy buttons in this game, but the conditional use of assassination with it's 15 second cooldown isn't one of them. And the notion that it should be as hard (or comparatively harder for the return, as I maintain) as other DC builds is also BS. The return from the DC investment puts it in another bowl of fruit (already had this argument, too).

I'd be curious to know details (e.g. feats, level split, race, enhancements, destiny info, twists, etc.) about your assassin you mentioned above with a less than 50% chance to assassinate in EEs. What EEs are you talking about? What's your full gear layout? If that's the results you are getting, then you've probably got a lot of room for improvement. Discussions in a vacuum don't really amount to much to be honest. Contextual specifics can help illustrate the problem.

Why, so you can tell me to dump enhancements that matter to me and my build that don't matter to yours (like shadow dagger)? It's going to be an opinion.

But I'll humor you for a minute though just to show what I believe is a "reasonable" playable INT:

Currently @ Level 24 Drow Pure Rogue

Base: 25
19 Start
6 Level Ups

Tome: +5

Feats & Enhancements: +8
+6 Enhancement Trees
+2 Capstone

Items & Effects: +15
+9 INT Helm
+3 Insightful INT (Epic Spy Glass)
+1 INT Exceptional Diamond
+2 Ship

Total INT: 53

Stealthy Twisted (of course).

Current Assassinate DC 57.

Latest place that assassinate wasn't reliable: EE GH

First, let me count the ways that I don't think I'm even representative of every rogue in the game. Not all will have the Epic Spyglass (some don't like the event, haven't played the event, didn't play it enough, don't know about it, or just have another trinket they're happy with for one reason or another). Not everyone is in a guild with the +2 INT (I see plenty of low level guilds and un-guilded players in the game). Not everyone goes out of their way to slot one of the dozens of +1 exceptional INT augments they've got laying around (I know, silly, huh?). Not everyone is Drow and can start with a 19 or 20 INT. Not everyone has a +5 tome.


And now is where you provide me with a bunch of obvious and unwanted advice without having any context of why I've made the decisions I've made. Give me a lesson in Min-Maxing. Or claim I don't know how to build a DC character (again, happily pimping that a Rogue is a DC character *just like* all other DC characters). It's where I argue about how AP for INT is "expensive" (i.e. 4 AP for 1 assassinate DC sucks) with a poor return unless you have gear to make up for things you're giving up... etc.


So what's the future look like? At level 28 I can count on +2 INT more from an item and +1 more INT from level-ups. + 1.5 DC. So, yeah, I know what my assassination looks like in all the most recent content and it's not pretty now. And it only gets worse as I level because the monster DC's grow much faster. The +2 Assassination added at cap and some AP savings that will allow me to dump more into my racial tree for some more INT are small consolation and will still see me well short of what's needed in the ToEE and Stormhorns... and beyond.


Then you move onto, "What, no destiny INT?" Yeah, because unlike most of you guys I don't have maxed destinies. I'm still running out of destiny almost *all of the time*. That's how the game is designed. Know what? A LOT of players are still looking to get all their fate points. Not all of us farmed ours out with Death Undone in past lives... some of us have been getting them a little closer to how the original developers intended (i.e. slooooowly, on multiple lives, through one-and-done play.) Crazy talk, I know.

And, honestly, when I start ETRing, and I focus on Primal for awhile (because I'd like Colors of the Queen, which I'm sure is wrong of me, too), I'll still be getting NOTHING for my assassinate DC from ED for probably the next couple years because it takes the entire ETR to refill the primal sphere. So I'm not going to count on more than Stealthy for a good long time from my EDs. And, to be honest, anytime I'm in an adventure where assassinate is useless... I *should* change that twist to something useful.


Oh, and don't forget to point out that we were running a level 26 adventure at level 24 with max scaling. Yeah. We *have* to do that. Otherwise the Barb, Pally, and Sorc just breeze through everything, scraping champions off their boot-heels like they just stepped in something. As mentioned many times before: Rogues aren't playing the game in a vacuum. We're playing *with* others. And (don't laugh), believe it or not, I'm the best geared and built character in my static group. Probably the most skilled player to boot (which is why I almost always win kill counts by a wide margin... and not because of assassination or my uber dps.) But, yet, I often have to forego my iconic class ability because we don't want to "easy button" the class with an ability that requires "minimal effort" to achieve. So be it. Captain Kill-Stealer reporting for duty!


And that's just the tip of the iceberg, but this ship's length is well past long-winded as it is. I wouldn't even be bringing any of this up if I didn't see all the ubers lobbying for a lower Assassination timer and SA dice, like those things will somehow "fix" the class.

In my experience:

*I* don't need more SA dice. I win kill counts just fine. Give me more and I'll just be an even more lop-sided finisher.

*I* also don't need a 12 second assassination timer. That is clearly a buff weighted to the no-fail crowd. Sorry to rain on the parade.


I'd take both, mind you, as I'm open to any buff they want to give my favorite class and know better than to look a gift horse in the mouth. It'll be a long time before they ever look at rogues again after this. But I just don't see those particular buffs as being the silver bullets some are portraying them to be.

I'll take an enhancement line of +1 assassinate DC's for 1 AP each over a shorter timer any day. Give Assassination 3 tiers, at 2 AP's each, to reduce the timer 2 seconds each. Since you guys don't need the assassinate DC's, you can spend the AP's on 4 seconds of reduction in your assassination attempt, while those of us without no-fail can just be happy with a better chance to land one every 15 seconds.

[Bobby88888]

No, the problem is you've made some faulty assumptions that I do not find reflective of the game and I got tired of pointing them out.
<Snipped sue to size>

You forgot to count MtF for 62 DC which is good enough to have a decent/high success rate for most EEs. MtF is your friend, always MtF.

I think most anyone playing an Int based Assassin would reasonably have ~52 Int or more.

By level 28 you are actually looking at +2 DC from int, more if you get an Epic litany and Intricate field optics or ins int aug, +4 DC from an item, at the very least 2 but Dark Diversion is easy to come by for +4-7 DC in a non Int ED. (also the new item has 2 more assassinate DC too) Also if you can get an EMG its got +2 DC at level 20 but That is harder to get than Mythic Muffled Veneer so not likely but very useful I would assume.
P.S. Your build seems perfectly fine to me.

As to using the non Int EDs for levelling you can still get a good DC there, speaking from experience I was reliably assassinating with around 62-64 DC in off EDs on my assassin for most content. I levelled every ED from 0 to cap on my Assassin (not farming death undone or anything else, good on you not doing that btw I hate how everyone just goes farms spies EN or whatever now, I mean it is no fun so why waste your time) while reliably assassinating with a similar DC.

Sure it won't be reliable in Stormhorns (or ToEE from what I've heard) but that is 2 quest packs in the game that have the highest saves and will require some build sacrifices to work and that is actually a good thing (I will probably have to review my build to get a few more DCs for them personally).

4 AP for 1 assassinate DC is expensive but you are also getting +1 to hit, damage and reflex saves and Int based skills for that 4 AP which puts each thing at 1 AP each so not too bad. I know you probably wouldn't invest into the other 3 if they were all options at 1 AP each but its not as bad as you made it out to be.

If you play for kill stealing ofc you will lead the kill count, but who cares about leading the kill count. The reason more SA dice etc is being asked for is to raise the power of the class so they are more useful at things other than kill stealing.
Yes the Assassinate timer being shorter benefits higher DCs more but it also means those with lower DCs can try again sooner.

If they added more Assassinate DC to the enhancement tree it would give those with the high DCs the most benefit too, they could either free up a heap of AP/ED points to move around or even go to one of the high DPS EDs whilst maintaining their DC which was the whole issue with adding Dex to assassinate DC, whilst those with lower DCs can drop more useful enhancements and damage to try get their DC up higher while using sub par gear or sub par X, ie something for nothing. Which only serves to widen the gap between those who have worked on it and those that choose not to make the sacrifices for it. That is why requests like this are being viewed as requests for easy buttons because that is the effect they will have for both the 'uber' group and the 'non uber' group.

[CThruTheEgo]

And the notion that it should be as hard (or comparatively harder for the return, as I maintain) as other DC builds is also BS. The return from the DC investment puts it in another bowl of fruit (already had this argument, too).

We did have that discussion, and while I pointed out the synergies involved in investing heavily into int, you did not respond to my request to elaborate on what is sacrificed by doing so, which leaves the impression that assassins are on equal ground with other DC based builds. So what exactly do you think an assassin is forced to give up by having to invest heavily into int, and how is that different than other DC based builds (excluding coup de grace, of course, because it's already been pointed out that it is an outlier)?

Currently @ Level 24 Drow Pure Rogue

Base: 25
19 Start
6 Level Ups

Tome: +5

Feats & Enhancements: +8
+6 Enhancement Trees
+2 Capstone

Items & Effects: +15
+9 INT Helm
+3 Insightful INT (Epic Spy Glass)
+1 INT Exceptional Diamond
+2 Ship

Total INT: 53

Stealthy Twisted (of course).

Current Assassinate DC 57.

Add 1 more int from level ups, 2 int from an int 11 item (2 of which are easily obtained from epic Necropolis), 2 assassinate DC from Epic Muffled Veneer (this is easy to obtain, no reason to expect that this should not be expected), and 5 DCs from measure the foe, and you're at a DC of 66 at endgame. That's not weak. Your assassinate will be useless only in EE Stormhorns. I'm not really seeing the problem here and this is why I say you are exaggerating. Throw in 3 DCs from 6 int in shadowdancer and you're at 69. Add another 2 from the new capstone once that goes live and you're at 71.

Latest place that assassinate wasn't reliable: EE GH

Yes, this is about where DCs start to ramp up. The lack of DC increases in mid epic levels is a problem that others have pointed out already, Nibel in particular if I remember correctly. The fact that assassinate DC throughout heroics, early epics, and endgame (if built for it, which should require building for imo) are sufficient means the problem is not with the DC, but the lack of increase in mid epic levels where mob DCs start to rise dramatically but gear and other bonuses do not.

We have a +2 DC item available at 20 (Epic Midnight Greetings) but I'm not advocating that as sufficient. The only other DC items available are at endgame. A better balance for gearing would be other +2 options available in early epics, +4 in mid epics, and +6 at endgame. This would help the performance plateau you are noticing in mid epics. The solution is not simply to add more DCs because they are already sufficient in all other levels. The solution is to spread out what is already available.

Not all will have the Epic Spyglass (some don't like the event, haven't played the event, didn't play it enough, don't know about it, or just have another trinket they're happy with for one reason or another). Not everyone is in a guild with the +2 INT (I see plenty of low level guilds and un-guilded players in the game).

Agreed, which is why I dropped the insight bonus altogether from my calculations that I linked in my previous post.

Not everyone goes out of their way to slot one of the dozens of +1 exceptional INT augments they've got laying around (I know, silly, huh?).

+1 exceptional stat augments are available from the epic trader in the Twelve for 20 tokens. This should be expected because it's really easy to get 20 epic tokens.

Not everyone is Drow and can start with a 19 or 20 INT.

Human is an option available to all and is only 3 int behind drow.

Not everyone has a +5 tome.

No, but +3 tomes are readily available and if you're goal is endgame, then obtaining a +3 tome for any DC stat on a DC based build should be expected by this point in the game's history. Yes, they really are that easy to come by. I see +3 tomes on the plat auction house for a few hundred thousand plat often enough. A first life, brand new player can come up with this if they put a little effort into it.

All of these things really are minimal effort. Do they require some effort? Yes. But not much, and if you intend to play at endgame, this is all a pretty small effort to be able to get there. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are saying that players who simply don't feel like making these kind of small efforts to improve their build, should still be able to get into endgame and be successful. That's why I drew the conclusion that you are looking for an easy button. But please, correct me if I'm wrong. Do you think this kind of minimal effort should not be required to perform well in the most difficult content?

And now is where you provide me with a bunch of obvious and unwanted advice without having any context of why I've made the decisions I've made. Give me a lesson in Min-Maxing. Or claim I don't know how to build a DC character

There's nothing wrong with your build. Your DC is fine and will continue to improve as you approach cap. That's why I'm not really understanding where you're coming from. You are hitting the doldrums of mid epic levels, but I've already addressed that problem and solution.

That's why I asked you for more details by the way. Your comments have shed light on where the problem specifically lies, and it's not with your build, or with assassinate. It's with the game and poor design in a number of ways (i.e. gear not meeting the new demands of more difficult content). The solution is not simply to add more DCs.

Then you move onto, "What, no destiny INT?" Yeah, because unlike most of you guys I don't have maxed destinies. I'm still running out of destiny almost *all of the time*. That's how the game is designed. Know what? A LOT of players are still looking to get all their fate points. Not all of us farmed ours out with Death Undone in past lives... some of us have been getting them a little closer to how the original developers intended (i.e. slooooowly, on multiple lives, through one-and-done play.) Crazy talk, I know.

What makes you think I have maxed destinies? My assassin has the least progress in destinies of all my characters. Heh, I even have several destinies still with 0 xp at all. What do I need max destinies for? I don't take any twists past tier 1, so I don't need fate points. And I play him only in shadowdancer because that is what he excels in, so it's simply what I enjoy most. I'm not into reincarnation either (heroic or epic for that matter), so I don't care to grind karma either.

But, like with the mid epic levels performance plateau, you are pointing to another problem. It does suck playing in off destinies, but that is true of most builds and has been a common complaint for a long time. I hate farming any quest for any reason. Running the same thing back to back, over and over, or even the same set of quests daily, makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a pencil just to help ease the boredom. I'm not saying I've never farmed anything, but I have to have a strong reason to put up with such a mind numbingly boring way to spend my time, and maxing destinies is definitely not a strong reason imo.

But again, the problem you are pointing to is a problem with the whole epic destiny and ETR system and has been a common complaint since it was introduced. The karma system was meant to minimize that problem to some degree, but it does not solve the problem entirely. This is a problem that nearly all builds face. It is not a problem with assassinate DC and simply adding more DCs is not the solution. Building/adjusting class based enhancements around a system which is inherently problematic is not a good solution period.

So here again, the problem lies not with your build or assassinate, but with a poorly implemented epic system.

Oh, and don't forget to point out that we were running a level 26 adventure at level 24 with max scaling. Yeah. We *have* to do that. Otherwise the Barb, Pally, and Sorc just breeze through everything, scraping champions off their boot-heels like they just stepped in something. As mentioned many times before: Rogues aren't playing the game in a vacuum. We're playing *with* others.

Yet another problem that does not lie with assassinate, but with other aspects of the game. Now that they turned bards, barbs, and paladins into uber-classes, they are now faced with the problem of balancing content both for those classes, and the others which were left light years behind them. The further revamps are intended to bring the other classes up to speed. At least that's what I thought they were intended for, but if assassin goes through as it currently is, I'm going to question whether that's actually the case.

This is the ongoing problem of game balance, something this game has never had as long as I've played it, and from what I've heard/read, didn't have it even before then. Adding more DCs is, again, not the solution to this problem.

I wouldn't even be bringing any of this up if I didn't see all the ubers lobbying for a lower Assassination timer and SA dice, like those things will somehow "fix" the class.

In my experience:

*I* don't need more SA dice. I win kill counts just fine. Give me more and I'll just be an even more lop-sided finisher.

*I* also don't need a 12 second assassination timer. That is clearly a buff weighted to the no-fail crowd. Sorry to rain on the parade.


I'd take both, mind you, as I'm open to any buff they want to give my favorite class and know better than to look a gift horse in the mouth. It'll be a long time before they ever look at rogues again after this. But I just don't see those particular buffs as being the silver bullets some are portraying them to be.

I'll take an enhancement line of +1 assassinate DC's for 1 AP each over a shorter timer any day. Give Assassination 3 tiers, at 2 AP's each, to reduce the timer 2 seconds each. Since you guys don't need the assassinate DC's, you can spend the AP's on 4 seconds of reduction in your assassination attempt, while those of us without no-fail can just be happy with a better chance to land one every 15 seconds.

I couldn't say it any better, so in response I'll just say, this:

Yes the Assassinate timer being shorter benefits higher DCs more but it also means those with lower DCs can try again sooner.

If they added more Assassinate DC to the enhancement tree it would give those with the high DCs the most benefit too, they could either free up a heap of AP/ED points to move around or even go to one of the high DPS EDs whilst maintaining their DC which was the whole issue with adding Dex to assassinate DC, whilst those with lower DCs can drop more useful enhancements and damage to try get their DC up higher while using sub par gear or sub par X, ie something for nothing. Which only serves to widen the gap between those who have worked on it and those that choose not to make the sacrifices for it. That is why requests like this are being viewed as requests for easy buttons because that is the effect they will have for both the 'uber' group and the 'non uber' group.

So the problems you seem to be having, Full_Bleed, are with assassinate DC gear not scaling appropriately with epic levels, a borked epic destiny and ETR system, and the impossibility of game balance in a game as complex as DDO. I think all of these actually are a problem, but adding more DCs is not the solution to any of them.

[Bobby88888]

So from the Character Generation screen when you choose your path to take as a Rogue:

1. The Dark Blade: These stealthy rouges do more damage when sneak attacking than anyone else and can eventually inflict their enemies with various debilitating poisons.

2. Master Mechanic: These crafty, intelligent rouges are masters at locating traps and disarming them, finding secret doors and lock picking, and can even repair constructs.

3. Thief Acrobat: These lively rouges are skilled combatants and are extremely difficult to pin down in battle. They are unequaled in their ability to avoid damage from enemies.


Since each one basically corresponds to the PrE of similar name (except The Dark Blade and Assassin have different names) it seems to me that these provide an excellent direction for their corresponding PrE. Except maybe Master Mechanic since the description there focuses mostly on utility which isn't such a big thing anymore since anyone can do everything.

But making Assassins do "More damage when sneak attacking than anyone else" and "inflict their enemies with debilitating poisons" and
Acrobats be "unequaled in their ability to avoid damage" and "skilled combatants" and
Mechanics the "masters at locating traps and disarming them"
Is a good way to go with some more for mechanic ofc.

Make these true for a well built rogue of appropriate type and this pass will be a success

[redoubt]

By level 28 you are actually looking at +2 DC from int, more if you get an Epic litany and Intricate field optics or ins int aug, +4 DC from an item, at the very least 2 but Dark Diversion is easy to come by for +4-7 DC in a non Int ED. (also the new item has 2 more assassinate DC too) Also if you can get an EMG its got +2 DC at level 20 but That is harder to get than Mythic Muffled Veneer so not likely but very useful I would assume.

On some of this gear:
Epic Litany and Dark Diversion seem like they should be easy to get, but they are not. Please bear with me. For those in raiding guilds, or who are friendly with a raiding guild, then these become easy. I run with an associated guild every week to do raids. We hit the Deathwyrm, Fire Peaks and MOD every weekend. Sometimes we do FOT as well. That said, I have a chance to get ONE piece of gear from each every 20 weeks. I also did a hard farm attack on MOD not long after it came out. Sometimes I would get in a group that did well and I would see 12 minute completions. Sometimes it was not so good. Once night it took 2 hours to get to our first completion. Another piece to this is that back when they were more fresh there were more pug groups for them. Much fewer today. All this to say that it is dangerous to assume that it is EASY simply because it might show up on a 20th list. If you don't have the right guild, getting to 20 completions can be difficult.

EMG is hard due to the rarity of the shard. Its pretty easy to get people to run BoB and TTT, but the drop rate is painful.

To a lessor extend the Intricate field optics have the same problem. Its not run often anymore and they are a pure luck drop situation. You might get lucky and buy the right one if you are well off in Astral Shards, so there is that option.

I still think someone wanting to be a high end assassin should put in the work and go for these items; we just need to remember some of them are getting harder to get and not easier due to fewer groups running the quests/raids.

Yes, this is about where DCs start to ramp up. The lack of DC increases in mid epic levels is a problem that others have pointed out already, Nibel in particular if I remember correctly. The fact that assassinate DC throughout heroics, early epics, and endgame (if built for it, which should require building for imo) are sufficient means the problem is not with the DC, but the lack of increase in mid epic levels where mob DCs start to rise dramatically but gear and other bonuses do not.

We have a +2 DC item available at 20 (Epic Midnight Greetings) but I'm not advocating that as sufficient. The only other DC items available are at endgame. A better balance for gearing would be other +2 options available in early epics, +4 in mid epics, and +6 at endgame. This would help the performance plateau you are noticing in mid epics. The solution is not simply to add more DCs because they are already sufficient in all other levels. The solution is to spread out what is already available.

Assassinate DC is pretty close I think. The proposed changes make it a little higher already.

I do like the idea of some sort of mid-epic bump. There are DC augments at 20 and 24 already. What about adding assassinate to that list?

[Bobby88888]

On some of this gear:
Epic Litany and Dark Diversion seem like they should be easy to get, but they are not. Please bear with me. For those in raiding guilds, or who are friendly with a raiding guild, then these become easy. I run with an associated guild every week to do raids. We hit the Deathwyrm, Fire Peaks and MOD every weekend. Sometimes we do FOT as well. That said, I have a chance to get ONE piece of gear from each every 20 weeks. I also did a hard farm attack on MOD not long after it came out. Sometimes I would get in a group that did well and I would see 12 minute completions. Sometimes it was not so good. Once night it took 2 hours to get to our first completion. Another piece to this is that back when they were more fresh there were more pug groups for them. Much fewer today. All this to say that it is dangerous to assume that it is EASY simply because it might show up on a 20th list. If you don't have the right guild, getting to 20 completions can be difficult.

EMG is hard due to the rarity of the shard. Its pretty easy to get people to run BoB and TTT, but the drop rate is painful.

To a lessor extend the Intricate field optics have the same problem. Its not run often anymore and they are a pure luck drop situation. You might get lucky and buy the right one if you are well off in Astral Shards, so there is that option.

I still think someone wanting to be a high end assassin should put in the work and go for these items; we just need to remember some of them are getting harder to get and not easier due to fewer groups running the quests/raids.



Assassinate DC is pretty close I think. The proposed changes make it a little higher already.

I do like the idea of some sort of mid-epic bump. There are DC augments at 20 and 24 already. What about adding assassinate to that list?

the base of +4 assassinate DC was on the really easy to obtain stuff and given all of the top stuff could actually hit +10, but I tried to denote that some of that was harder to obtain, whilst keeping it very brief. and EMG.... well lets say I found it much easier and quicker to get a Mythic Muffled Veneer than EMG considering I still don't have one but do have the other.......

A level 20 +1 Assassinate DC aug and a level 24 Assassinate DC +2 Aug would be a good idea but they would have to keep assassinate DC bonuses on items to +4 until the level cap raise in that case which I don't think they are planning on doing right now. The only problem with that is it really devalues EMG for anyone lucky enough to have it since you can replace its bonus in a less restrictive way but by level 24 that seems reasonable as long as it isn't devalued at level 20.