Rogue - Assassin Changes

[redoubt]

1. I personally don't like tying the level 18 ability to assassinate DC. There are Dex and yes even Str rogues still being played. Vorpal originally worked for everyone. It is poor game design to pigeonhole an ability to one stat when there may be future adjustments to str/dex builds. This causes 2 fixes instead of 1.

2. Sorcs and barbs are supposed to be the caster/melee masters of destruction. (not assassins)

3. We used to have classes with roles, which meant it was OK for one class to have less dps than another because we each filled a role. I am sad that this is no longer a part of DDO.

4. I prefer mortal fear (which gives you time to adjust your tactics) to a random insta kill (which doesn't). Part of playing assassin effectively is predicting your environment. For me, this is not as much fun when too much randomness is added.

1. Just curious, do you really think the vorpal effect on Lethality works well into epics?

2. And they are. Not trying to bring assassin up to that point. I don't think lethality would.

3. Second time this came up today. I liked having roles. Tanks, and dps and healers and CC and trappers. I thought that was great. I'd even go back to it if we could. I just don't think the game would survive turning it back. It would require getting rid of hirelings, making traps deadly again and removing most of the self healing. I think too many people would quit.

4. I've never had mortal fear. So I won't comment on it.

[CaptainSpacePony]

I'm not sure what you mean by "hard choice." There is no hard choice. There's simply no reason to go dex based as a pure assassin. If you want a dex build for dps, then you're much better off splashing, which means you're not using the capstone. In fact, the only real reason to stay pure as a rogue, is for assassinate, in which case you need to be int based if you want it to work. Dex based isn't even a consideration for assassins right now. I'm fine with that personally. I'm just pointing out that dex based isn't an option..

Outside of star chuckers, are Dex-based builds currently a real option for anyone? I can't think of any other build of anything that is strongest as a Dex build.

[Saekee]

Outside of star chuckers, are Dex-based builds currently a real option for anyone? I can't think of any other build of anything that is strongest as a Dex build.

It is a fair question. I think it works for some builds (like the one in my sig). It usually involves classes that can't benefit from Divine might or kensei power surges or other such buffs. Anyway the starchuckers are getting 3 Dex lost via the changes to Shadow Toggle. Makes me wonder now if future multiclassed versions will even bother with rogue levels as a result--probably will swap them with ranger or some other split.

[Gothdom]

I have tried the assassin's new enhancements on lammania today and I love this one:

Execute: Melee Assassinate attack: +3[W] damage. If target is below 30% health, deal 500 damage. This damage scales with 200% Melee Power. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)

Yet, the rest is still lacking. Everything is immune to almost all the poison attacks. I'd prefer a passive ability like execute on crits, and an active that turns crits into vorpals for a few seconds and a long cooldown. I'd feel more like an assassin, and I could lead an assassinate attack then manage the mob while I run away in solo to strike back later... I just feel something is still missing.

[nokowi]

1. Just curious, do you really think the vorpal effect on Lethality works well into epics?

2. And they are. Not trying to bring assassin up to that point. I don't think lethality would.

3. Second time this came up today. I liked having roles. Tanks, and dps and healers and CC and trappers. I thought that was great. I'd even go back to it if we could. I just don't think the game would survive turning it back. It would require getting rid of hirelings, making traps deadly again and removing most of the self healing. I think too many people would quit.

4. I've never had mortal fear. So I won't comment on it.

1. No, but I would prefer if any new direct damage implementation works for all level 18 rogues, not just int DC builds. The current ability might as well do nothing in epics.

2. It wouldn't be OP. That doesn't mean that this is necessarily needed or desirable.

3. The game will likely not go back to roles. That doesn't mean that every build has to do everything equally well. Think of a "tank" being able to solo but taking longer to do so. (hey, wouldn't a second person be useful!) Think of a DPS toon wanting one other party member to soak up some of the damage. The idea is to make some class synergy/cooperation beneficial without going back to a required role system.

4. Mortal Fear: Any roll of a 20 cuts non-boss HP in half. This scales nicely through any content.

[Chaios]

An assassinate attempt when they are aware of us would make sense in that case. Dex vs Dex (i.e reflex save). But against an enemy that is unaware of use (i.e. we are sneaking and don't have agro) fort makes sense. They are not dodging or avoiding us in anyway. Its about determining if their body is tough enough to survive the assassinate attempt (thus a fort save.)

But maybe that would be a flavor change to the other pseudo assassinates that don't require sneak, to put them against the reflex save instead...?

Last sentence is interesting, I like it. But still gotta clarify the idea of a reflex save...

1) A fighter is stabbing a Gnoll in the face, when suddenly a Droam Warmage peeps from behind a rock and blasts the fighter square in the back of the head with a fireball... What does he roll? Did he know he was about to be fireballed?

2) A barbarian, drunk on his new found powers of self sufficiency, is capering deleriously through a dungeon, axes swinging like great metalline wings, when from floor walls and ceiling for yards in every direction, and with no warning indication possibly penetrating the miasma of blood and glee circumscribing the fellows world, sprout whirling slicing blades! Did he know the trap was there? What does he roll?

In both cases the character (and probably the player) had no idea that something was about to happen, and in both cases the character rolls a reflex save. This should illustrate that awareness of danger is not a precondition of calling for a reflex save.

An assassination attempt is a precise physical attack directed at an anatomical location where the assassins knowledge of anatomy, physiology and craft indicate that an organ absolutely essential to the continued functioning of the the victim as a living entity can be interfered with sufficiently to prevent it from continuing to perform such function. It isn't a magical attack on the will to live, or a focusing of cosmic vibrations disrupting the flow of the victims life sustaining Ki, or even a poison. It is a severed Aorta, a punctured heart, or a snapped neck, among other things. The only thing, other than the Assassin's skill, that might prevent such attack from resulting near instant death, is if the victim has some intuition that catastrophic danger is imminent and is lucky enough to move just enough that the Assassin doesn't quite hit the extremely precise target required for a successful Assassination. There is no being tough enough to survive Assassination, there is only being twitchy enough that the Assassin failed. Thematic argument.

Practical argument. There are more opportunities for different types of characters and their associated types of play to be useful, to find synergies and to cooperate if their signature skills affect mobs through different mechanisms. Sometimes you need an archer, sometimes you need an axer. If the Necromancer knows that the mob's fort save is astronomical, then the party sends in the assassin in to force a different save. It could be game changing, at least for a while. If not to be game changing, why change anything?

[amsharkwei]

Last sentence is interesting, I like it. But still gotta clarify the idea of a reflex save...

1) A fighter is stabbing a Gnoll in the face, when suddenly a Droam Warmage peeps from behind a rock and blasts the fighter square in the back of the head with a fireball... What does he roll? Did he know he was about to be fireballed?

2) A barbarian, drunk on his new found powers of self sufficiency, is capering deleriously through a dungeon, axes swinging like great metalline wings, when from floor walls and ceiling for yards in every direction, and with no warning indication possibly penetrating the miasma of blood and glee circumscribing the fellows world, sprout whirling slicing blades! Did he know the trap was there? What does he roll?

In both cases the character (and probably the player) had no idea that something was about to happen, and in both cases the character rolls a reflex save. This should illustrate that awareness of danger is not a precondition of calling for a reflex save.

An assassination attempt is a precise physical attack directed at an anatomical location where the assassins knowledge of anatomy, physiology and craft indicate that an organ absolutely essential to the continued functioning of the the victim as a living entity can be interfered with sufficiently to prevent it from continuing to perform such function. It isn't a magical attack on the will to live, or a focusing of cosmic vibrations disrupting the flow of the victims life sustaining Ki, or even a poison. It is a severed Aorta, a punctured heart, or a snapped neck, among other things. The only thing, other than the Assassin's skill, that might prevent such attack from resulting near instant death, is if the victim has some intuition that catastrophic danger is imminent and is lucky enough to move just enough that the Assassin doesn't quite hit the extremely precise target required for a successful Assassination. There is no being tough enough to survive Assassination, there is only being twitchy enough that the Assassin failed. Thematic argument.

Practical argument. There are more opportunities for different types of characters and their associated types of play to be useful, to find synergies and to cooperate if their signature skills affect mobs through different mechanisms. Sometimes you need an archer, sometimes you need an axer. If the Necromancer knows that the mob's fort save is astronomical, then the party sends in the assassin in to force a different save. It could be game changing, at least for a while. If not to be game changing, why change anything?

interesting story

[HuneyMunster]

1. I personally don't like tying the level 18 ability to assassinate DC. There are Dex and yes even Str rogues still being played. Vorpal originally worked for everyone. It is poor game design to pigeonhole an ability to one stat when there may be future adjustments to str/dex builds. This causes 2 fixes instead of 1.

I would prefer a 2 sec paralyse that induces helplessness with no save when target has too high hp to be instant killed from vorpal effect. This would also make it worth taking for Acrobat asa they gain extra dmg to helpless from No Mercy. So this would help both int, dex and str builds at the same time. It would also free up a twist slot as balance strikes would no longer be needed by some.

Edit:
Forgot Acrobat capstone already has vorpal knockdown so maybe increase the vorpal range of Lethality to 19-20 when using staffs. I cant see this as a problem for staff user as single weapon fighting gets vorpal 19-20 that works with Northwind.

[Linvak]

I still wish to propose more CC then damage. I was thinking of a Shiradi type proc on sneak attacks. Not in the form of dmg, but in crowd control.

5-15%? maybe higher random proc of 1 effect

-Guardbreaking
-Limb Chopping (maybe rename to Ligament Slicing) attack speed/move speed/tripping?
-Stuns?
-anything else?

Could go a dmg route with bleeds

Even though it's been rough playing rogue lately with everything new being undead, I still think their damage is pretty high up there. If everyone's really set on increasing dmg, I think that increase should stick to sneak attacks, and things that can be sneak attacked. Back in the day, I felt like as long as I was getting sneak attacks, no one was doing more dmg then me. I like the idea of being rewarded for getting sneak attacks. I don't want rogue to turn into a Bard that can just run up to everything face to face alone, and drop everything dead. I want to continue using my party members as meat shields, steal their kills, and hide in the shadow. Because if you don't you're dead.

The other thing right now, is why are rogues being prioritized by mobs? In a group of Palis/Barbs/Bards, I should be the least noticable, yet groups run past all of my party members and surround me while being attacked. I don't even have to attack them, i just have to be in the vicinity even if members of my group are ahead. I understand that the AI was improved to target casters/healers, but lets be honest, in Shadow Form, compared to the yelling, raging barbarian.....why me?

PS. Basically nerf Barbs by making them intimidate every 3 seconds while raged based on STR mod : pppppppppppppp

[amsharkwei]

Lethality: Any attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation , If the target HP below (100*rogue level), you will kill that living targets. or deal (10*rogue level) point damage , this damage sacled with 200% melee power.

[ezmeweatherwax]

The good:
-Nimbleness -- a move in the right direction for much-needed defense.
-capstone upgrade
-Faster Sneaking -- where it belongs...what acrobat actually sneaks?
-Venomed blades AP reduction
-Adding some actual usefulness to poisoned strikes
-Scroll Mastery AP reduction
-Haste Boost AP reduction - and faster run speed to get there

The needed:
-remove the ridiculous animation for Assassin's Trick...please...as is the mob can be gone and in the next room before it finishes
-Nimbleness -- useless without an equal dodge cap increase embedded with it
***-Higher cap on Vorpal Strikes (higher hp allowance on enemies) than ANY other effect/weapon/class in the game -- L18 Rogue needs to be sexier, and The Assassin by definition needs to be the most deadly in re to vorpal capability. Vorpal Strikes is where you accomplish that...this needs to remain the rogue "unique" spot. Needs to be significant enough to be noticeable.
-most still choose haste boost over damage boost...consider that
-more critical damage, not removal of what little we were given
-Shadowdancer improvements, including an HP addition (as an aside, we've all seen the eidolon neck, no excuse for no shadow summon in that tree anymore)


As is, the only self-healing comes through the ability to engage the scroll mastery in the mech tree. Are we getting ANYTHING to help with this? As is, you can't exactly scroll heal yourself while being beat on, but it's the best that we pure rogues got. We don't get healers, the game doesn't have them any more. So, what's happening with rogue defense? And where's our light armor with massive fort benefits, exceptional con, etc?

[Gothdom]

The more I read this thread and the more I play with the new tree in lammania, the more I think assassins should be the kings of crits and vorpals.

I mean, an assassin knows the weakness of the bodies. Technically, their strikes should be "pure". The assassins, as I see it, need speed (regular and stealthed), more doublestrike, better crit range and better vorpal range also. The new tree is a step in the good direction, but won't go all the way. You should all go and try it.

[redoubt]

Lethality: Any attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation , If the target HP below (100*rogue level), you will kill that living targets. or deal (10*rogue level) point damage , this damage sacled with 200% melee power.

The ability requires 18 rogue levels. The range of use of this would then be:

1800hp to 2000hp vulnerable.
180-200 points of damage.

While I still prefer the idea of an assassinate check on a vorpal roll, this idea at least would scale if modified a little bit:

If target HP is < 100 * char level, the target dies. If not, do 50 * char level in untyped damage. Scales with 200% melee power.

By switching it to character level it opens two things:
1. 18/2 split can take full advantage of it.
2. epic levels continue to improve it.

[amsharkwei]

The ability requires 18 rogue levels. The range of use of this would then be:

1800hp to 2000hp vulnerable.
180-200 points of damage.

While I still prefer the idea of an assassinate check on a vorpal roll, this idea at least would scale if modified a little bit:

If target HP is < 100 * char level, the target dies. If not, do 50 * char level in untyped damage. Scales with 200% melee power.

By switching it to character level it opens two things:
1. 18/2 split can take full advantage of it.
2. epic levels continue to improve it.

Thank you sir, "make an assassinate check on a vorpal roll" is my idae, but It seems Producer didn't want adopt it.

[ezmeweatherwax]

Rogues have UMD and don't have Rage preventing them from casting if they need a healing source.

Sev~

This really needs to be addressed. Yes, a proper pure rogue will have both UMD and scroll mastery, but then what? Worked fine in the old L20 content (ToD, LoB, Hox), but the game has moved on. What rogue has the concentration skill check to use those heal scrolls while being beaten on? What the devs need to remember here is that "healers" do NOT exist anymore. So, run into epic cabal and hang out in a cloud of glitterdust with a wad of heal scrolls in hand until you drop dead of physical damage whilst the scattered remains of those heal scrolls are pounded to pulp by barefoot hobgoblins? But wait, I had Nimbleness...why...

You want to skip this, fine, but make the changes to the trickery and the dps so awesome that even the bards and pallies will feel motivated to heal the new rogues. Go glass cannon if you must, but don't forget the cannon part of things.

[Faltout]

This really needs to be addressed. Yes, a proper pure rogue will have both UMD and scroll mastery, but then what? Worked fine in the old L20 content (ToD, LoB, Hox), but the game has moved on. What rogue has the concentration skill check to use those heal scrolls while being beaten on?

Key being "while being beaten on". Why stand still and be beaten? When you take damage, you have many abilities to escape the fight for a little while allowing you to heal yourself and approach the battle differently since head on is probably not working for a rogue...

What the devs need to remember here is that "healers" do NOT exist anymore.

WRONG. Healers do exist, I find them very often and I also play one healing all characters no matter what (even warforged with a ton of HP). And even if they didn't exist then that's no reason to balance a game towards non-existent healers. Because that again serves to lose more and more healers that feel useless.

So, run into epic cabal and hang out in a cloud of glitterdust with a wad of heal scrolls in hand until you drop dead of physical damage whilst the scattered remains of those heal scrolls are pounded to pulp by barefoot hobgoblins? But wait, I had Nimbleness...why...

Solo: Pull one monster at a time with bluff.
Party: Let the others head in first and attract glitterdust. You stay behind and use a scroll of true sight. Focus your attacks on the loremaster and the shamans. If you're an assassin build, you can jump over the rest of the fight and head straight for them. No need to worry for the monsters. They are busy with the rest of the party. And any AOE spell/effect you will evade.
Solo end fight: Find a safe spot or keep running around. They are not that fast.

[Full_Bleed]

The more I read this thread and the more I play with the new tree in lammania, the more I think assassins should be the kings of crits and vorpals.

An assassin isn't even the king of killing helpless targets, let alone the kings of crits and vorpals.

Nice thought, but it will not happen.

[gwonbush]

The needed:
-remove the ridiculous animation for Assassin's Trick...please...as is the mob can be gone and in the next room before it finishes

From what I've seen in Lam, it's now a quick attack animation, takes half a second to a full second to resolve and continue your normal attack sequence.

[Halfelves]

Snip:

Rogues have UMD and don't have Rage preventing them from casting if they need a healing source.



Sev~

I didn't read all 50 something pages, so I'm not sure if someone mentioned this, but I have tried to self heal using only potions and UMD.... It doesn't work very well at all. I spend all my time staring at the bar waiting for the cool down to go off for the heal scroll. Not saying I'm an uber player or anything, probably just average if that. All I have to say is I hate rogue lives, even though assassin is fun when I'm running through a rogue life, I liked a rogue life one time, and that was because I mixed it with barbarian for hps. What I hate the most is, they never have enough hitpoints. Ever. I get out quick and go to a life I like.

[dualscissors]

From what I've seen in Lam, it's now a quick attack animation, takes half a second to a full second to resolve and continue your normal attack sequence.

Good to hear.

As a shameless reminder, if the Devs are coding the Assassin's Trick animation to be faster, I was hoping that the feat Improved Feint could be given the same shortened animation treatment.

Technically this isn't something in the rogue trees but the feat is a rogue issue through and through. No one takes this feat if they might want to because it is slooooooow as well as broken (movement/attack breaks the benefit).

Here's hoping for Improved Feint, which would be an added CC boon to rogues.