Rogue - Assassin Changes

[nokowi]

You are right about this and that's the reason why I'm not opposed to a few more DCs, but not too many. 1-3 more DCs means I'll be able to drop some int from enhancements, destiny, and/or twist, which will allow me to do more than I am currently able. It opens the door for more variety, and I think that's a good thing. Too many more will enable even more options, which can widen the margin of error and destroy the uniquely skillful playstyle of the assassin.

Do you need this DC at level 18?

If the answer is no, then DC is not needed in the assassin core. It should come through items. Placing the DC in the core build adds a huge risk without any additional benefit, except to those who want viable no-fail EE multi-class assassins.

Would a level 28 +6 DC item allow you to do all those things you desire?

If the answer is yes, then items, not core DC changes, are the way to go.

EDIT: If all the DC happens at level 20, I am far less opposed to this.

I will repeat again that assassin is not behind bard because of DC. You are going to need very good gear to be an effective assassin regardless of your DC. Allowing the DC before the rest of the gear/toughness is going to cause so many complaints when less skilled players still can't excel in EE content. It pushes players not ready for EE into EE. I predict a huge increase in complaints about assassin if DC is increased in the core assassin line.

A friendly 'your not ready for assassin yet" is a much better solution.

[CThruTheEgo]

Here is a summary of what I would like to see the level 18 and 20 cores become. Note that not all are my idea, just consolidating and reiterating what I like best so far.

Lethality: on vorpal, perform an assassinate using the assassinate DC. On failed save, target is killed instantly. On successful save, target takes 10d6 additional sneak attack damage.

Deadly shadow: +4 int, +1 assassinate DC, +4d6 sneak attack damage, 10 melee power.

Note that lethality's additional damage on a failed save comes out to be an average of 1.75 damage per hit, which is a negligible amount. On a successful save, which should be most of the time for a well built assassin, this effectively preserves and scales the ability into epic content.

Note also that the capstone would effectively provide a total of +2 DCs.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Here is a summary of what I would like to see the level 18 and 20 cores become. Note that not all are my idea, just consolidating and reiterating what I like best so far.

Lethality: on vorpal, perform an assassinate using the assassinate DC. On failed save, target is killed instantly. On successful save, target takes 10d6 additional sneak attack damage.

Deadly shadow: +4 int, +1 assassinate DC, +4d6 sneak attack damage, 10 melee power.

Note that lethality's additional damage on a failed save comes out to be an average of 1.75 damage per hit, which is a negligible amount. On a successful save, which should be most of the time for a well built assassin, this effectively preserves and scales the ability into epic content.

I like but Deadly Shadow - should it be INT or multiselector?

[CThruTheEgo]

Do you need this DC at level 18?

If the answer is no, then DC is not needed in the assassin core. It should come through items. Placing the DC in the core build adds a huge risk without any additional benefit, except to those who want viable no-fail EE multi-class assassins.

I would rather the level 18 core not provide a DC increase personally. I'd like to see it adapted based on one of the many suggestions presented in this thread. I like the idea someone mentioned of performing an assassinate check on vorpal. That essentially preserves the ability into epics.

EDIT: If all the DC happens at level 20, I am far less opposed to this.

I will repeat again that assassin is not behind bard because of DC. You are going to need very good gear to be an effective assassin regardless of your DC. Allowing the DC before the rest of the gear/toughness is going to cause so many complaints when less skilled players still can't excel in EE content. It pushes players not ready for EE into EE. I predict a huge increase in complaints about assassin if DC is increased in the core assassin line.

A friendly 'your not ready for assassin yet" is a much better solution.

I think it's much more appropriate in the capstone, but I'd be fine if it came from items also. I would agree with your argument here as well.

[CThruTheEgo]

I like but Deadly Shadow - should it be INT or multiselector?

I honestly don't know why it should be anything other than int. Dex based assassinate isn't going to happen, so there's no reason for a pure assassin to be anything other than int based. There might be a handful of players out there playing non-int based pure assassins, but they should be so rare that I don't think the capstone should cater to them. It's like asking for kensai's power surge to grant a con option instead of only str because someone might want to play a con based dwarf.

EDIT: Full disclaimer: I am in the camp that thinks if you're playing a dex or str based dps pure assassin, and not taking advantage of assassinate, then you're better off playing a completely different build (i.e. you're doing it wrong).

[dualscissors]

I would rather the level 18 core not provide a DC increase personally. I'd like to see it adapted based on one of the many suggestions presented in this thread. I like the idea someone mentioned of performing an assassinate check on vorpal. That essentially preserves the ability into epics.



I think it's much more appropriate in the capstone, but I'd be fine if it came from items also. I would agree with your argument here as well.

I appreciate the first point. I don't have a gauge for how sympathetic the Dev team is with that idea atm. At the least, Lethality currently is really really weak. (You may have heard me say that already!)

As for all of the DC boost happening in the Capstone, this seems to keep the status quo with respect to assassins having to be pure. Do you advocate this? Having a minor DC boost at level 18 would entice some to class splash since you'd recover a scrap of the DC that you are losing. Currently splashing a level or two is really hard on assassin DCs, perhaps to the point of pushing the DC just low enough that it loses its reliability.

[CThruTheEgo]

As for all of the DC boost happening in the Capstone, this seems to keep the status quo with respect to assassins having to be pure. Do you advocate this? Having a minor DC boost at level 18 would entice some to class splash since you'd recover a scrap of the DC that you are losing. Currently splashing a level or two is really hard on assassin DCs, perhaps to the point of pushing the DC just low enough that it loses its reliability.

Let me put it this way: I'm not opposed to pure being a near requirement. I'm honestly not sure what I think of a multiclass option as I've not really considered all the implications. I would not want to open the door for any overly powerful combinations.

[nokowi]

What do you all think about the idea of a DC increase by increasing the cap of MtF? (say if it stacks up to 7 times)

This would allow newer players to remain entirely in stealth and get an extra +2 DC for each assassinate over the current design.

18/2 Multi-class players might be able to assassinate when they approach with stealth, but they would have trouble switching to assassinate in the middle of a fight because of the lower DC due to the multi-class choice.

Sufficient Int builds / people with gear would have the easiest time switching between melee and assassinate because they can succeed without MtF.

I am not sure what my own opinion is yet... I think I would be a fan of a Rogue core 20 getting 10% faster sneaking as a capstone in this scenario.

[bbqzor]

Having +1 DC at 18 would work. Anyone can go 19/1 and be down 1 dc from where they are now due to no int from capstone. You could go 18/2 and be down 2 dc, a tradeoff in EE but with 2 levels you surely got something in trade. Then add another +1 DC at 20 for rogues staying pure. Pure rogues would go up 2 dc from where they are now. A +2/-2 DC spread from exactly how it is on live, which allows for rogues to range in level from 18-20 works.

Thats the simplest of approaches, and it checks out. It has DC in both cores, doesnt drastically change heroic for pure rogues, leaves room for future items if that actually comes to fruition, and is the smallest of possible impacts to EE capable builds (2 dc at most basically frees up a couple epic feats or enhancement choices, at least theres some small variety).

It may not be to everyones personal tastes but its not going to break anything. And they need to do something, the size of this thread is evidence of that. I would add more than that because I dont think being that conservative is going to change much build wise, but its in the ballpark and its easy on the devs.

[Saekee]

What do you all think about the idea of a DC increase by increasing the cap of MtF? (say if it stacks up to 7 times)

This would allow newer players to remain entirely in stealth and get an extra +2 DC for each assassinate over the current design.

18/2 Multi-class players might be able to assassinate when they approach with stealth, but they would have trouble switching to assassinate in the middle of a fight because of the lower DC due to the multi-class choice.

Sufficient Int builds / people with gear would have the easiest time switching between melee and assassinate because they can succeed without MtF.

I am not sure what my own opinion is yet... I think I would be a fan of a Rogue core 20 getting 10% faster sneaking as a capstone in this scenario.

Nice suggestion in that it also rewards a certain kind of playstyle

Whatever happened to the suggestion about adding the Sap feat somewhere in the enhancements? It works on any level mob

[slarden]

Dex based assassinate isn't going to happen, so there's no reason for a pure assassin to be anything other than int based.

Wait did I miss an announcement that this was off the table? I thought all that was said is that it wouldn't be in the first Lam build. I was already planning out my dex assassin build lol.

[redoubt]

Assassin DC only excels in EE because of the party speed on EH, the higher DC's needed on EE (less mass insta kills primarily), and because of additional HP on mobs. I will congratulate you if your groups run EE as fast as EH. Reading the forums, 99.99% of players run EH specifically because it is faster (and complain about this loudly). If you have a single player zerging ahead of everyone on EE, gathering mobs and energy bursting the entire dungeon, well this is really an indictment of things being too easy rather than a design problem with assassin.

I am including DPS builds as assassin choices. Sorry for mixing terminology. Technically I should use "DC assassin" for DC builds and "Assassin" for any build taking lots of points in the Assassin tree. Right now you get to choose between DPS and Insta-Kill. Melee DPS can operate in Shadowdancer, Fury, or LD. You can go dex, str, or int to damage. Ranged dex builds can operate in Shadowdancer or Shiradi? You can ask Vinoe on Sarlona for real info here --> Executioners Shot is a form of ranged insta-kill. Melee Insta-kill is Int only by design.

I did say almost as fast . EE is harder, but the toons we run there are an order of magnitude better than our others.

So, I think we are mostly in agreement. We were so deep in the assassinate portion and looking for ways to expand builds that used the T5 assassinate ability when you brought up the 5 build types. Thank you for the clarification.

[redoubt]

Skill is what happens while you play the game. Build is what happens outside of the game.

The math says that DC's are fine through all of heroics and through about level 24-25. From level 25-27 DC's can be challenging for newer players. At level 28, +4 DC items become available and DC's are fine for current content. A solution in line with the math is to add a +4 DC item at level 24-25 that has much less other effects (if any) than the level 28 +4 DC items.

I could get behind that. My concern with not buffing the assassin tree is the worry that it will not be addressed later. We have to wait so long for the "SOON" coming fixes that when we are offered an upgrade to the assassin tree, I'm grabbing on with both hands. Sev has said he doesn't want to mess with Shadow Dancer right now. If they were doing both, I'd be with you on putting a small boost there instead.

They could also add +1 and +2 assassinate augments. These would be level 24 and 28 and would hold the DC increase until later in levels (where and upgrade in SD is available at level 20 once filled in.)

And yes, adding a few DC's will in fact ruin the game. Squishy stealth characters can not share the same space as toons that have everything. This will kill stealth assassin. Its hard to see how you can call this a positive. I never claimed a few DC increase was an easy button, I claimed it ruins an entire prestige class.

I assume this is due to being able to take other things that make the character more survivable? Could you elaborate on how you see a couple DCs removing that play style?

[redoubt]

You are right about this and that's the reason why I'm not opposed to a few more DCs, but not too many. 1-3 more DCs means I'll be able to drop some int from enhancements, destiny, and/or twist, which will allow me to do more than I am currently able. It opens the door for more variety, and I think that's a good thing. Too many more will enable even more options, which can widen the margin of error and destroy the uniquely skillful playstyle of the assassin.

Agreed.

Assassin is a VERY narrow focus right now. A small bump in DC would, in my opinion, allow a few options and a little diversity in builds. A player could still max out DC if they wanted, or they could go the other way and run in a different destiny while retaining a working (though not max'd) assassinate DC.

To be clear, I'm with him on the SMALL boost to DC. Nothing crazy.

[slarden]

They could also add +1 and +2 assassinate augments. These would be level 24 and 28 and would hold the DC increase until later in levels (where and upgrade in SD is available at level 20 once filled in.)

I like the idea of augments for assassinate in addition to items. If they make augments non-stacking and 2 less than the highest assassinate item in the game it's a reasonable trade-off. You can either wear the best items in the game or slot an augment with 2 less assassinate vs. the highest item in the game. It's the same trade-off we have now with stats, resistance, protection, prr, natural armor, etc.

This would provide the most build flexibility vs. just making a higher assassinate item every so often.

[CThruTheEgo]

Wait did I miss an announcement that this was off the table? I thought all that was said is that it wouldn't be in the first Lam build. I was already planning out my dex assassin build lol.

Post #777. Sev said it wasn't in the current version of Lam and that he only asked the question about dex to get feedback. Based on that feedback, he seems to be leaning toward not implementing it. I don't see anything in his post that implies it will be in a future version of Lam.

1000th post!

[depositbox]

Probably because he isn't using a dual box that allows him to run to the end fight with no fighting other than clearing one group of mobs near the start and one orange named drow.

Or his 1 hour necro 4 solos. Or his 1 hour in foundation of discord. or his 1 hour in devil assault. or his.. well. you (should) get the point...

Because assassinate was broken in U22 and I did not show the shortcut. I also only had T2 TF and was using rapiers. This was before melee power. DC had nothing to do with time. Waiting for a 15 second timer did.

You cannot lead kill counts on that build. 1 hour to solo a dungeon rofl. foundation of discord can be completed 5 times in an hour. at least.

[dualscissors]

Or his 1 hour necro 4 solos. Or his 1 hour in foundation of discord. or his 1 hour in devil assault. or his.. well. you (should) get the point...



You cannot lead kill counts on that build. 1 hour to solo a dungeon rofl. foundation of discord can be completed 5 times in an hour. at least.

Eh, let's move away from posts of this nature. They don't really add anything.

[slarden]

Post #777. Sev said it wasn't in the current version of Lam and that he only asked the question about dex to get feedback. Based on that feedback, he seems to be leaning toward not implementing it. I don't see anything in his post that implies it will be in a future version of Lam.

1000th post!

I didn't get the impression the decision is final, but you are probably right - it's certainly the easy choice and less work. If that is the case it would be great if he stated clearly so it's not a huge discussion point here and on Lam.

[CThruTheEgo]

Eh, let's move away from posts of this nature. They don't really add anything.

/seconded

There's been a lot of good constructive discussion throughout the entirety of this thread. Let's keep it to that.