Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Thar]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

What?? reflex save is always good? people need to play ee's and then see how good their reflex is.

that being said,

yes Assasin dc at one or both of those cores would be a good improvement.

[depositbox]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

<3

i see you have found that coup/assassinate/qp are for gimps and flavor runners. good man. now fix my qp so i can play my flavor build. ty.

[nokowi]

Possibly.

Playing in a group isn't really going to make up for a low Assassinate DC. If it's low as a soloer, it's low in a group. The only thing adventuring in a group changes is what happens when you fail on an assassinate attempt. In a group, they're there to pick up your slack. If you're soloing, you could very well die depending on the situation.


Regardless, Rogue Assassins should lend itself well as a soloer. Sneaking around, avoiding certain monsters/situations, and killing a mob or two here and there is something soloers do and it's something Rogue Assassins do best. If you're playing in a group, most likely you're not going to get much of a chance to do what you do best.

I have 1 word for you:

Web


You don't need an assassinate DC to succeed if you have a improved traps + disable device. Assassinate just speeds things up if you use it effectively.

[Full_Bleed]

Again, this is standard for a DC based build. Have you ever built a DC based build?

I disagree and think this is a false equivalency. DC based builds are for DC's that affect more than ONE ability. They usually affect a spectrum that define the character. A PM or Enchantment Sorc gains more than the success of ONE spell with a big DC investment.

At any rate, I can appreciate the DC increase discussion going on now.

[jaggyjag]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

It's good to hear you want pure rogues to have a way to have better DC's, what needs to be done is that the Assassinate DC needs to be based on a skill just as Coup is.

Could you please explain clearly, I mean really explain why you are not willing to give Assassins that same consideration to make them on par with others?

The Class is Assassins, not Dps'ers and so many of us want to be able to Assassinate at the same level of our contemporaries like the Bard.

If you could just take a moment to actually explain why skill based DC was okay for Bards but not for Assassins I would be happy to let this drop, but until them I can only find this confusing and irrational.

Please explain Sev, please.

[Dreppo]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

The reflex save bonus is not worthless. I think you should keep that in.

I personally do not think you should use the level 18 core and level 20 as a means of solving the Assassinate DC problem. Assassinate is but one ability in Assassin, an important one yes, but still just one ability. Not every Assassin (even ones with 18+ rogue levels) builds to maximize Assassinate. Some may prefer to maximize general DPS. This is especially true of STR-based and DEX-based builds. By incorporating Assassinate DC boosts into the high level cores, you are 1) further cementing DC-centric Assassin builds as the only viable Assassin builds; 2) further widening the gap between INT-based builds and non INT-based builds since only INT-based builds can reach the top Assassinate DCs; and 3) crowding out other more general benefits that could go into the high level cores (a non DC-centric Assassin loses out on the proposed +4 reflex to pay for DC-centric Assassins getting more DC which doesn't help me at all).

I much prefer other approaches to solving the Assassinate DC problem. You've already said you'd like to approach it through itemization. That works.

Another approach is through general tactics DC. Now I know you just said you don't favor that approach because you could splash fighter and end up with a higher Assassinate DC which seems wrong. But consider these counterpoints:

1) You're incorrect that you can get a higher DC by splashing fighter. Note that the fighter tactics increase comes at tier 2. The best you can achieve is the same DC as pure rogue by going 18/2. Kensei gives you +3 DC, but you lose 3 DC from two rogue levels plus the capstone. And you have to spend 11 AP in Kensei vs the pure rogue spending 1 AP on the capstone, a difference of 10 AP.
2) Monk benefits from general tactics DCs for Quivering Palm. If this doesn't seem wrong for Quivering Palm then it shouldn't seem for Assassinate.
3) Allow tactics DC means that itemization automatically comes into play, without having to introduce new specialized items just for Assassinate DC. Existing specialized Assassinate items (Midnight Greetings, Muffled Veneer) can be made to stack with the bonus from general tactics, much the same as Vertigo items stack with general tactics.

[jaggyjag]

We thought about it, but having fighters add more to Assassinate than Rogue didn't feel right.

Sev~

Agreed, because Assassins are the Assassins right? not fighters or barbs, or bards.

It is so clear from this thread and even your comments that the Assassination DC needs a way to be buffed, Clearly skill based is the way to go. The Rogue has the opportunity to spend Skill points in greater numbers than other classes, there are very few items to buff it, making it Tier 5 and requiring a investment of skill points is really the only suitable solution.

Otherwise, the other suggestions are just backdoor methods of trying to splash Assassin with something else and further dilute the class and make it nothing more than a splash class that cannot Assassinate as well as Bards, the real Assassins of DDO.. currently.

[brzytki]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

I'd rather see +DC only in the capstone and Lethality (core5) made more about DPS, like scaling SA or upgrading the built-in vorpal.

[davmuzl]

Agreed, because Assassins are the Assassins right? not fighters or barbs, or bards.

It is so clear from this thread and even your comments that the Assassination DC needs a way to be buffed, Clearly skill based is the way to go. The Rogue has the opportunity to spend Skill points in greater numbers than other classes, there are very few items to buff it, making it Tier 5 and requiring a investment of skill points is really the only suitable solution.

Otherwise, the other suggestions are just backdoor methods of trying to splash Assassin with something else and further dilute the class and make it nothing more than a splash class that cannot Assassinate as well as Bards, the real Assassins of DDO.. currently.

And making it skill based would mean that people would go pure?!

[slarden]

I disagree and think this is a false equivalency. DC based builds are for DC's that affect more than ONE ability. They usually affect a spectrum that define the character. A PM or Enchantment Sorc gains more than the success of ONE spell with a big DC investment.

At any rate, I can appreciate the DC increase discussion going on now.

This is a valid point, it is a huge investment for something you can only do once every 15 seconds at most.

If it's worth taking assassinate it's worth working on the DC though.

[CThruTheEgo]

I disagree and think this is a false equivalency. DC based builds are for DC's that affect more than ONE ability. They usually affect a spectrum that define the character. A PM or Enchantment Sorc gains more than the success of ONE spell with a big DC investment.

At any rate, I can appreciate the DC increase discussion going on now.

On an assassin, int increases to hit, damage, reflex save, skill points per level, trap skills, and assassinate DC. It's not just "ONE ability." There is a lot of synergy there that you seem to be ignoring.

[bbqzor]

Why is this not enough?

Because its kind of ridiculous to require an assassin to spend three of his six enhancement tree choices, a heroic feat (insightful reflexes or the rest of the build suffers), over half his destiny points (3 in stealthy, 12 in int), and all his epic feats, along with farming a specific item from a lv30 raid, just to make one T5 enhancement work?

Without any breathing room, this is literally the only choice. If it works or not is almost secondary to there being literally only one choice. Thats just bad design, wanting to use one enhancement tree shouldnt block out virtually every aspect of a character. Hence the continued attempts to provide some kind of alternative. I mean seriously... thats quite a bit more pressure on T5 functionality that literally anything else in the game.

I mean put another way, the epic tactics feat adds +2 DC to lots of things, and takes one single selection. Taking every epic int possible doesnt provide the same boost despite eating all your epic feats. Its not even close to fair returns... it really needs to ease up a bit one way or another.

[slarden]

As CThrU said, DC's are relatively easy to get outside of Stormhorns. Unless you have every piece of gear, you are not going to try and solo EE stormhorns quests like me. In a group, you don't need auto-success DC's. Just go attack a mob that has agro on someone else. If you fail, they are not even going to turn around and look at you.

As a new player, you may have to go for all Int to get really reliable EE DC's. You could also play EH for a while. As you find items, you get more build choices. This is exactly how a game should play! I saw an earlier post that items don't matter in DDO. They do to assassins right now. You should drool over another +1 resist or +2 more int. You could also get by with lower DC's and play intelligently in a group. You will do fine.

I consider Stormhorns leveling quests at this point.

What about ee Temple of Elemental Evil, ee Shavarath where all enemies have GH and ee Vale? Will DCs work there against non-immune enemies? That is all I care about at this point.

[nokowi]

I consider Stormhorns leveling quests at this point.

What about ee Temple of Elemental Evil, ee Shavarath where all enemies have GH and ee Vale? Will DCs work there against non-immune enemies? That is all I care about at this point.

We will have new items. I read someones post earlier that devs said itemization is their preferred method to boost DC's. Just ask for appropriate items scaled to the DC of the new content. Problem solved.

[davmuzl]

Because its kind of ridiculous to require an assassin to spend three of his six enhancement tree choices, a heroic feat (insightful reflexes or the rest of the build suffers), over half his destiny points (3 in stealthy, 12 in int), and all his epic feats, along with farming a specific item from a lv30 raid, just to make one T5 enhancement work?

Without any breathing room, this is literally the only choice. If it works or not is almost secondary to there being literally only one choice. Thats just bad design, wanting to use one enhancement tree shouldnt block out virtually every aspect of a character. Hence the continued attempts to provide some kind of alternative. I mean seriously... thats quite a bit more pressure on T5 functionality that literally anything else in the game.

I mean put another way, the epic tactics feat adds +2 DC to lots of things, and takes one single selection. Taking every epic int possible doesnt provide the same boost despite eating all your epic feats. Its not even close to fair returns... it really needs to ease up a bit one way or another.

It's not an ordinary T5 enhancement like a bit of a crit bonus. It is the most important ability that the Assassin gets and therefor it is justified that you have to invest more into it than into other T5 enhancements. On the other hand that means it should be treated as such and should imho have better options to increase the DC than comparable abilities. I agree however that especially when it comes to epic destinies it sucks when half the points go into int.

[nokowi]

Because its kind of ridiculous to require an assassin to spend three of his six enhancement tree choices, a heroic feat (insightful reflexes or the rest of the build suffers), over half his destiny points (3 in stealthy, 12 in int), and all his epic feats, along with farming a specific item from a lv30 raid, just to make one T5 enhancement work?

Without any breathing room, this is literally the only choice. If it works or not is almost secondary to there being literally only one choice. Thats just bad design, wanting to use one enhancement tree shouldnt block out virtually every aspect of a character. Hence the continued attempts to provide some kind of alternative. I mean seriously... thats quite a bit more pressure on T5 functionality that literally anything else in the game.

I mean put another way, the epic tactics feat adds +2 DC to lots of things, and takes one single selection. Taking every epic int possible doesnt provide the same boost despite eating all your epic feats. Its not even close to fair returns... it really needs to ease up a bit one way or another.

Did you ignore every other ability along the way?

How about all the synergies CThruU pointed out?

This is one of the reasons I argued against the new bard. Once you give players too much, they will continue to ask for it until it destroys the game. You can go play bard if you need any easy insta kill. The game play you want already exists. You can cross class at will. I have nowhere else to go if I want the level of skilled play required by assassin.

[nokowi]

Thanks all. I just wanted to pop on and make some points for why a faster assassinate timer is a better way to let assassin catch up with bard than higher DC's.

-Noko

[Artagon]

We thought about it, but having fighters add more to Assassinate than Rogue didn't feel right.

Sev~

Specifically adding assassinate to the Combat Mastery item list of things it affects would not directly benefit any one class more than rogue. In regard to increasing assassinate at rogue 18 or 20... You are already rewarding players for staying pure because non-pure rogues cannot achieve effective DCs, so making those cores add more seems like you are thumbing the nose at anyone that wants to build outside the cookie cutter. If anywhere, put it at the core 12 so that a player can still have some flexibility in build and remain viable. Also make the calculation DC 20 + 1/2 rogue level + int to make the scaling less horrific.

[redoubt]

Core 18: Lethality.

On a confirmed 20 from a sneak attack (not sneak mode) and assassinate check is made. If successful the mob dies and a 15 second cool down timer starts. Note: This would not likely benefit from MtF.

Core 20:
Add +2 Assassinate DC (Instead of 1 at 18 and 1 at 20).
Drop +2 dex
Add +2 INT (total 4)

Better? The capstone is just a collection of what many people seem to be saying. Lethality, triggering an assassinate check on a "vorpal" would be very unique and very much in the "assassin" flavor while adding dps/instakill in a new way (without creating any new mechanics.)

[amsharkwei]

Why not add Epic level in assassinate DC

DC=10+rogue level+Epic level+INT mod+Enhancement+Iteam