Rogue - Assassin Changes

[slarden]

Can you show a decent build utilising this? You'll need to be in Primal Avatar, burn a tier 3 twist, take 8 levels minimum of rogue and then somehow get 23 dodge over the dodge cap.

Best I could come up with was 44% passive dodge with another 10 on the table from tier two Measure the Foe, absolutely rubbish build though that went all in on dodge and would suck as a tree.

He is talking about using the clickies: Uncanny dodge + primal travel from primal avatar for bonuses that last 44 seconds out of 2 minutes. The treeman build is a very powerful build and that is effectively what it does - use displacement clickie then use dodge bonus clickie - go in a big mob and whirlwind, cleave, great cleave whatever and they will be dead by then using avatar of nature. Then when their clicky is cooling down they will come to the forum and complain the game is too easy and not rewarding enough lol.

There are many assumptions in his post and not all of it has to do with being an int build vs. a dex build and has nothing at all to do with assassinate. He is right that dex is alot better for dps which I was the first one in this thread to point out after Sev posted the proposal, but I would be happy to play my assassin like an assassin as an int build if they would kindly give int builds:

- insightful reflexes in the capstone
- int to hit and int to damage for free

If they do this I don't care if they give assassins dex builds. A dex build can do everything he is saying without assassinate anyhow and his sustainable dc is not better because he is counting short-lasting consumable buffs to get to his #.

I see treeman builds abusing primal avatar all the time clearing EE mobs with one whirlwind. I don't care it's a very boring and unchallenging build to play and I won't play it over my rogue just because it's better.

I am also not worried about defensive roll when I am between 20 and 50% because I only really get killed by the single big hits and I keep my health topped off all the time so that 20-50% range is rare for me. I really only care about no mercy in that tier. If I am below 50% I am jumping out of combat until I am back up again. If I get whacked by a champion with fortification bypass I am either below 20% after the hit or dead lol. Defensive roll isn't going to help me.

[slarden]

Rofl at the Coup is too good badsies. Show me how well your time is compared to dps classes, even with your no fail coup. Oh. Wait. What? It's slower than thf room clearers? Shocking!

So, in the most mob heavy quest your esteemed and deadly insta kill ability still puts you behind? Wow. Much OP. Such stronk.

I see bards using coup and then cleaving, great cleaving, etc. and single weapon fighting gives 30% attack speed. Swashbucklers are very good and very easy to build.

[slarden]

Dex wins

Alot of words in your post above but these 2 sum up the situation best.

[Nothingtoseehere]

Can you show a decent build utilising this? You'll need to be in Primal Avatar, burn a tier 3 twist, take 8 levels minimum of rogue and then somehow get 23 dodge over the dodge cap.

Best I could come up with was 44% passive dodge with another 10 on the table from tier two Measure the Foe, absolutely rubbish build though that went all in on dodge and would suck as a tree.

So is the No Mercy build bad since it requires a T3 twist? uses more than 8 rog lvls? and sits at a high dodge using some temporary but easy to obtain dodge? I never claimed it was top DPS infact I said you traded some DPS for Defences which you can obtain very high defences or DPS whilst maintaining a higher Assassinate DC. I think it would be perfectly viable and gave the base framework already but tweaks would need to be made. I came up with 48% dodge max of 49 dodge cap but I did it in a hurry due to time constraints and numbers may be slightly off.

[brzytki]

So is the No Mercy build bad since it requires a T3 twist? uses more than 8 rog lvls? and sits at a high dodge using some temporary but easy to obtain dodge? I never claimed it was top DPS infact I said you traded some DPS for Defences which you can obtain very high defences or DPS whilst maintaining a higher Assassinate DC. I think it would be perfectly viable and gave the base framework already but tweaks would need to be made. I came up with 48% dodge max of 49 dodge cap but I did it in a hurry due to time constraints and numbers may be slightly off.

It certainly is off in the Dodge/MDB/Dodge Cap department, because you add all you can get from both racial and acrobat tree, disregarding AP limit and even add Lithe twist. The limiting factor is MDB, it won't matter if all the dodge and dodge cap bonuses combined give you numbers in 45-50 range (standing, no short bursts that bypass the cap) when your MDB is significantly lower. The highest you can get is 37 (assuming 8 APs in halfling and Mobility item and i'd like to see where you'd put it), you could have 6 more from Lithe but it'd cost you a twist.

You are also forgetting that if you want to switch to robes and rely primarily on a miss chance you'll lose 28 PRR, which is big on a low PRR character, resulting in up to only 30 PRR if you have the gear. Your damage reduction drops from ~40% to ~23%. To get as high Dodge cap as you can (49), you have to put 8 APs in racial and the rest 31 APs in acrobat. Now, 49 Dodge cap assumes constant MtF, so cut 10 when it fades to 39 max. Next is Dodge, with Uncanny, item, Shadow Dodge and Nimbleness you have sustainable 30 Dodge. You don't have 5 more APs to invest in racial tree to get 3 more unless you drop something from other trees, like 2 max Dodge Cap from core 5 of acrobat, lowering your max dodge from 39 to 37. When MtF is up, you have up to 40 Dodge. That all combined means you definitely CAN'T jump into the mob and stay there for long, especially if you have agro, because you WILL get hit and when you do you will be hit significantly HARDER.

Unless of course you'll wait before every fight to have Uncanny Dodge off cooldown before you jump into the mob but that's just a boring playstyle and no one will be waiting for you.

If in LD, you'll have max 900 HP and 30 PRR more when blitzing (assuming you take Toughness 30 HP). If in Primal, you'll have max 830 HP (assuming you take Toughness 30 HP).

Anyway, you can have a similar build on live now with the only difference being a workable assassinate DC.

[Nothingtoseehere]

Your evidence is terrible. In Orange:



So what. In the end all Dex really did was let you into LD, because it didnt cost 3 assassinate DC from lost Int via stats in SD or something. Thats it. As a result you gained some hp and dps from LD, and could do enhancement points different to get more dodge, and another ability which basically kind of functions like more dodge. And then claim "triple dps" because blitz or something.

An Int guy in SD is going to be comparable on all that stuff. A little lower on hp/dodge from destiny/enhancement splits. But hes going to be a LOT stealthier, with Stealth Training II and Improved Invisibility available. It is just amazing what you can do at full speed with perm invis in a short window. Thats valuable. He will have much better synergy with the new Mechanic tree, providing some decent combat options now (if they get implemented well) including cc and a virtual party dps buff by reducing mob prr/mrr by 30 (thats like stacking damage boost on everyone, inc casters). And he will have different multiclass options available, for those that are into that.

Consider that carefully. Youll have a slight reduction in hp and dodge, while still having good EE level values at both. Instead you get a lot of unique stealth options, cc effects, and stacking party-wide dmg buffs. Of course, you only get blitz when in LD, but thats life for everyone, and its not like you cannot hop into it when you need it (say, a raid like FoT where theres just nothing to sneak or assassinate). Looking beyond blitz, I really dont think this is some one-sided call. Stealth, cc, party dps, thats a good set of tools too.

All of those are reasons why you might want to stay Int, or use Int in the future even if Dex were allowed. And running in blitz isnt something that you can only do when dex based. An Int guy could hop into blitz too, run the exact same setup, and get the same melee power. The only thing they would lose in this case is some assassinate DC. The rest of the values (hp/dodge/ref/ac) are all similar enough, and good enough, for both that people are going to pick their builds based on what they enjoy, rather than what is best. Thats good. Nothing here is so compelling that its going to take Int completely off the table like people are claiming. And thats without even considering future choices, where allowing both stats is far better than only one.

Look no one is saying dex wont have some gains. But its not going to sink the Int ship. Again:



All this does is show that a dex rogue has some things it does better, and int rogue still has things it will do better, and that a blitzing rog does more dps than a regular one because of more melee power. I really dont think anything in that conclusion is news of any sort.

I wish someone had some obvious build that met that proof, or could prove the opposite, but I dont think there is one. Its just going to go back and forth and then get passed up and then in the future assassins will be out a whole lot of choices. Like assassin+tempest or assassin+ninja spy. Such is life, sigh.

My evidence is not terrible, you just don't like it.

The summary shows the maximum Assassiante DC, but right below it was a full breakdown with the temporary stuff listed clearly, I am not going to write up full breakdowns multiple times. Typically I would report it with no temporary bonuses, including MtF, but everyone else has been reporting with so I am going with the standard in the thread. Those bonuses however are nto something you would keep up. You would hit them when you need the extra DC and definitely not mid combat as that would be silly. Here is the 'permanent' number then 68+5 MtF. Which will mostly do you just fine, but if you need the extra boost you have options that are easily available and take only moments to implement, I wouldn't consider cartwheel charge worth the AP on the build but put it as an option for a max value sort of thing but tensers is a readily available +2 DC clicky you can hit for anywhere you have difficulty.

Hp gain may be from LD but it is still a gain, no? It was one example build, not everyone will build exactly that or anything, that was the things I fit in on a quick rough build.

Sure an Int rog can get up to 85% dodge, but that is highly temporary and not the focus but rather a side effect. It is possible to build so that you are running almost 100% dodge at least 50% of the time. Since it was a build design goal and something it would be using more often than not I reported this. Trying to say that its the same as using uncanny dodge when its off timer is the same is flat out wrong. Maybe I didn't say what I was doing very well, if so I apologise for any confusion.

Improved Defensive roll is a help and part of the build I chucked together. Saying that you personally don't think it is of any use is fine, your entitled to your opinion but I disagree completely with your premise. On the build your virtually uninhabitable so that does reduce its benefit somewhat but that has nothing to do with other damage reducers.

More DPS. Well the tripple was clearly a random figure I pulled out of the air to give my point more meaning, I thought this was clear, my apologies. The significantly more is from where I would make an Int rog after these changes and is close enough to many of the builds on the forums that I didn't see the need to write it up. I would put an Int assassin in SD and a Dex in LD, depending but this one is LD so lets stick with that. Taking Dex lets me change to that ED so it is a damage boost from going Dex. Refer to above for all the 'temporary stuff I am permanently keeping up'. As for the actual numbers, feel free to crunch them, I don't have the time but they are clearly significantly higher. The tripple was light-hearted and a clear over exaggeration. 1.5 or 2X is probably mroe like the actual if you want a figure but I recommend calculating it yourself since you still wouldn't believe me even if I did.

Sorry I didn't mention AC, people have been criticised int his thread already for mentioning it since it doesn't do much, so I skipped it as it was irrelevant to the convesation unless they do an AC overhaul. And maybe it is a given of Dex but I would be misleading if I didn't include that as it is a bonus of the build that is 'big' enough to warrant mentioning.


In the end dex let me get at least = if not better an Int DC whilst gaining large amounts of damage and better defences. You seem to think this is nothing which I am struggling to understand why.

An Int Assassin in SD will have a comparable Assassinate DC and slightly better sneaking sure but not too much since Dex will hit better hide/ms scores, though Dex can easily get higher DC at almost no cost whilst Int has traded some survivability and damage for it. Sneaking at full speed is certainly fun but hardly necessary and with Acro speed boost standard sneak speed will move up a little too. I haven't looked much at the new mech tree due to time constraints and not being out when I posted the build but I don't see much except traps that I would want there which I listed as a possible way to spend AP since not everyone is into those. Which I would be taking on Int or Dex.

You seem to be getting caught up on blitz as the basis of your argument, so switch over to crusader and it still works basically the same, you might loose some damage or a negligible amount of hp and you gain other things such as better self healing. The point is you will have a better DC, HP, dodge, damage, stealth skills (not necessarily better stealth in total but), etc. Same CC, same party DPS, or possibly better depending on choices (Where is this -30 PRR/MRR I seem to have missed it and can't mind where it is?).

I'm wouldn't necessarily switch to Dex since the flavour of the whole class is in the Int so I would try stick it out if they put this nightmare through but in the end I think I would go over to Dex simply because it is better at everything except for sneaking maybe which it is good enough at to not matter. Falling from one of the top Rogues on my server to right down to the bottom just because I stuck with an Int build is most off-putting to say the least.
Sure Int can run in LD if they wanted but would you use it as your main ED on an Int build? or just situationaly such as FOT? You would still come up shorter on dodge, and reflex and AC but your HP would probably be a little ahead and your damage would be less. The numbers an Int build could hit are passable sure but why use them when you could boost all of them by dropping int and also bump your will save - the weakest point.

They will not be similar or comparable. People say X class can't have Y since it treads on Z classes toes. Well this is a case of X can't have Y since it completely eclipses and will replace Z. I want to play an Int based assassin but if Dex to assassinate DC went through I would feel I couldn't since it would be so much worse at everything that was what I worked hard on to make my Int assassin the best of the best at, you say build diversity I say if anything it lessens build diversity, not to mention fun.
There is plenty of compelling evidence that show just how much better dex would be than Int but you don't want to see it or believe it. Instead you want to nitpick every little detail that might be accidently off or a clear and intentional over exaggeration for effect which kinda suggests you see what I am saying but don't want to admit it.

As to considering future updates, that isn't something that we can really do in DDO, in an ideal world sure but in DDO nope. Relying on future balancing to bring somethign back down again isn't something we can afford to do or let through since it could be years if ever before that pass is added. and I can just as easily and truthfully say that there will be no synergies with X as you could say that will be.

If you don't think any of the things I gave the build are things of use or you don't like them it just frees up slots to get other things that add power in a different way.
The build I posted was very rough and I tried to put 2 builds in 1 sorta thing there which was a bad idea probably but I was short on time and some things may have also gotten a little mixed up due to that but the point still stands that Dex wins anyday.

I respectfully disagree and I profusely apologise if anything I say might be taken disrespectfully. I am just concerned about the future of my favourite class and might become overly expressive sometimes.

P.S. @ slarden Thanks for clarifying some of what I garbled out there Though don't forget Meld Into Darkness for +100% clicky and gets you 69 seconds in a row if you hit in right order with about a min to get ready to hit them all again. I was intentionally being vague around the dodge concept which led to excess confusion, sorry everyone.
Though it is all about Dex V Int on assassinate. A dex assassin could do all of that with a good assassinate DC even if by going that path a different build might suit it more and is nothing like the traditional assassin playstyle.
I also wouldn't play that "100%" dodge build either probably but it is certainly a good build that any dex based asssassin could go with and I thought it was worth mentioning.

[Nothingtoseehere]

It certainly is off in the Dodge/MDB/Dodge Cap department, because you add all you can get from both racial and acrobat tree, disregarding AP limit and even add Lithe twist. The limiting factor is MDB, it won't matter if all the dodge and dodge cap bonuses combined give you numbers in 45-50 range (standing, no short bursts that bypass the cap) when your MDB is significantly lower. The highest you can get is 37 (assuming 8 APs in halfling and Mobility item), you could have 6 more from Lithe but it'd cost you a twist.

You are also forgetting that if you want to switch to robes and rely primarily on a miss chance you'll lose 28 PRR, which is big on a low PRR character, resulting in up to only 30 PRR if you have the gear. Your damage reduction drops from ~40% to ~23%. To get as high Dodge cap as you can (49), you have to put 8 APs in racial and the rest 31 APs in acrobat. Now, 49 Dodge cap assumes constant MtF, so cut 10 when it fades to 39 max. Next is Dodge, with Uncanny, item, Shadow Dodge and Nimbleness you have sustainable 30 Dodge. You don't have 5 more APs to invest in racial tree to get 3 more unless you drop something from other trees, like 2 max Dodge Cap from core 5 of acrobat, lowering your max dodge from 39 to 37. When MtF is up, you have up to 40 Dodge. That all combined means you definitely CAN'T jump into the mob and stay there for long, especially if you have agro, because you WILL get hit and when you do you will be hit significantly HARDER.

Unless of course you'll wait before every fight to have Uncanny Dodge off cooldown before you jump into the mob but that's just a boring playstyle and no one will be waiting for you.

Anyway, you can have a similar build on live now with the only difference being a workable assassinate DC.

Use robes and ignores the MDB as I said you would have to for that particular option, you will almost exclusively be running those dodge bonuses in combat and sneaking for 1 second every 10 isn't hard even with aggro. Eventually a hit will go through yes, which is where Improved defensive roll comes in for incase 2 get through since you have enough HP that mostly 1 hit wont be much of an issue except on the really nasty champ combos in which case the PRR usually won't help you anyway.

I thought it was fine in the AP department but I didn't look too hard, though worst case it becomes 96 dodge which is still very high.

Waiting for CDs won't be much of an issue due to how many you have except for long fights, which depending on the fight or quest you could switch to either light armour or different ED if you wanted to.

But I am not interested in running that build (or the other which is why I am opposed to Dex change) and was a theory build I cobbled together in under 5 min so sure it will have issues due to lack of time spent on it but adjust numbers as needed for the odd mistake, the premise holds and it shows what it was meant to. Focusing on the odd irrelevant mistake is just a distraction from the thread and not really necessary, I am only Human

Sure you can do it similar on live right now but you can't have high assassinate DC too which was my point.

[brzytki]

Use robes and ignores the MDB as I said you would have to for that particular option, you will almost exclusively be running those dodge bonuses in combat and sneaking for 1 second every 10 isn't hard even with aggro. Eventually a hit will go through yes, which is where Improved defensive roll comes in for incase 2 get through since you have enough HP that mostly 1 hit wont be much of an issue except on the really nasty champ combos in which case the PRR usually won't help you anyway.

That's all good and well, but Improved Defensive Roll comes into play only when you are <50% and even then you'll have ~75% chance to negate half damage, not every time. That coupled with low PRR and lowish HP would make it risky, it would bring the times immediately after champs introduction when, though not often, but you could get one-shotted. And it wouldn't be only on champs because you don't have max HP in every second in the quest.

Waiting for CDs won't be much of an issue due to how many you have except for long fights, which depending on the fight or quest you could switch to either light armour or different ED if you wanted to.

How many you have? Uncanny Dodge, 1. If SD, Meld into Darkness (T3) but the whole point of the build is to move away from SD. If LD, none unless you use another twist. If PA, Primal Travel for 12 sec with minute cooldown (actually shorter duration if you don't interrupt tumbling).

Because we list all those builds someone might think the rogues would be overpowered. They wouldn't. They would just come closer to other classes in terms of DPS because they wouldn't be forced into Shadowdancer, which is a crappy destiny DPS-wise, anyway. Now on live, assassins have two options: 1) focus on assassinate and be forced into SD, doing subpar DPS or 2) disregard the core prestige ability and go for DPS only in Crusader or LD.

If the Shadowdancer was better, we wouldn't see such power gains. If its EPIC MOMENT wouldn't be such an insult and if SAs scaled better in epics, we wouldn't see assassins switching from SD to LD.

[slarden]

P.S. @ slarden Thanks for clarifying some of what I garbled out there Though don't forget Meld Into Darkness for +100% clicky and gets you 69 seconds in a row if you hit in right order with about a min to get ready to hit them all again. I was intentionally being vague around the dodge concept which led to excess confusion, sorry everyone.
Though it is all about Dex V Int on assassinate. A dex assassin could do all of that with a good assassinate DC even if by going that path a different build might suit it more and is nothing like the traditional assassin playstyle.
I also wouldn't play that "100%" dodge build either probably but it is certainly a good build that any dex based asssassin could go with and I thought it was worth mentioning.

I agree with Meld into Darkness although I think you meant 59 seconds, but you would need to swap out sense weakness. Sense weakness and no mercy together are really good, but yeah 59 seconds out of 120 with superman dodge is nice. It's not enough to get me to play primal avatar, but it's a great concept.

If I was playing a rogue in LD and had no mercy I would seriously consider meld into darkness instead of sense weakness as a twist if dex-based. That would be a higher priority to me than the improved defensive roll actually.

Improved uncanny Dodge + meld into darkness alone gives 35 seconds which is nice. I don't use those whenever they are off timer - I only use when in trouble and I think 35 seconds out of 2 min is enough - at least for me if I manage aggro propertly. Improved uncanny dodge is usually enough.

[bbqzor]

My evidence is not terrible, you just don't like it.

Its not my opinion you need to concern yourself over. Its the factual basis of your evidence. Which is, as pointed out, not good. Other posters have largely made further replies for me, but to highlight:
- changing to robes reduces prr/mrr significantly
- over reliance on dodge and improved defensive roll puts you into risking "1 shot" territory frequently
- retaining enough dodge effects impacts twist selection and enhancement choices
- only dps gain cited is melee power from destiny tree choice and independent of dex or int
- no dps gain from the stat change... cite one source of dps gain from stat change alone?

Here is the 'permanent' number then 68+5 MtF ... tensers is a readily available +2 DC clicky you can hit for anywhere you have difficulty.

Yep, same ballpark as Int, but slightly easier and/or higher. The biggest advantage dex offers is a slightly more favorable dc. Known quantity and easy to calculate, theres a very finite source of int and dex bonuses which Im sure the devs can add up too.

Well the tripple was clearly a random figure I pulled out of the air to give my point more meaning ... Taking Dex lets me change to that ED so it is a damage boost from going Dex ... if you want a figure but I recommend calculating it yourself since you still wouldn't believe me even if I did.

Id believe it if it wasnt pulled out of the air to purposely give an inflated sense of meaning. Even if some people can read between the lines, not everyone will, and any illustrative build points need to be demonstrably sound mechanically. The only dps change cited is from changing destinies. Anyone can change destinies, and the dps changes tied into them are largely self-evident to all. Really what you are getting at, is that a dex based character has an easier time using more destinies than an int based character, when that character is not a caster type or something. And while that is probably true (its not like Ive tried every permutation of either but sounds right I should think), it also doesnt mean that once dex is available it will completely eclipse int on that basis alone.

In the end dex let me get at least = if not better an Int DC whilst gaining large amounts of damage and better defences. You seem to think this is nothing which I am struggling to understand why.

Its not nothing, Ive said multiple times, in posting to you and elsewhere, that Dex will get an edge on DC, and probably slightly in dodge. You have not shown any damage increase not tied to a destiny change, which isnt really valid. Anyone could sit down and design an int-build knowing they were going to sit in some other destiny and wind up similar, save the already known and agreed upon dc issues. In fact, this is exactly what happens when int assassins on live do epic past lives in other spheres... I mean its literally cut and paste exactly what people do. And they do it fine. So what you are saying reads, to me, like "dex has a better dc, slightly more dodge, how is it not better" to which I reply, as I have been, well those are nice but Int has stuff too.

Look at something like swashbuckler... they can use dex or cha or int for damage. And I have seen all three get rolled into workable characters, one stat isnt really superior to the others. Ive played with swashs based on all three stats. In different destinies, with pretty radically different base setups. Theyre all cool. Why is saying dex has some better things throwing out that int is still totally viable and has its own gains? A couple DC mean that much to you? If thats the only thing being examined then yes, the DC is higher, the rest of the discussion is moot.

I haven't looked much at the new mech tree due to time constraints and not being out when I posted the build but I don't see much except traps that I would want there

It got posted about 7 hours before you posted, but Ill grant thats not the worlds largest window to check it out in. And traps are the sort of thing Int is very likely to have the advantage in, something like 10-15 dc more. That is a LOT of dc to leave on the table... I mean for 10 assassinate dc people would go bananas. Between slow, web, daze, and so on those are not junk abilities to lose dc on. I said (in that thread and will say here) that the implementation is important, if the changes take badly or make for bad play, this is diminished. But one has to assume the goal is to do it well, so that it will be useable, which means this is something youd want to consider not giving up.

(Where is this -30 PRR/MRR I seem to have missed it and can't mind where it is?).

Ooze flask in mechanic, requires 13 AP in the tree. Means no matter what dex combo you did, to fit it youd have to lose dodge cap, improved roll, or no mercy points. And the 10 points spent to unlock it would likely be minimally useful on a dex chassy, meaning high opportunity cost. An Int build can easily use the pre req points there, and walk away with a much larger gain (again, assuming it goes in right, that caveat applies to any change they do I suppose).

you say build diversity I say if anything it lessens build diversity, not to mention fun

I think given that one of your main points was that, as melees, dex characters can use destinies better than int characters... having dex there obviously opens build diversity. It gives you all the dex options on top of the int options. As for fun, I guess whats fun for some isnt fun for all. But being locked into one singular int option isnt any more or less fun than being locked into one singular dex option, in abstract. I think the choice of so many more options presents a more fun game than only one. But I make no claims that should be a universal truth, people will have fun with whatever they choose.

There is plenty of compelling evidence that show just how much better dex would be than Int but you don't want to see it or believe it.

Dont write off the points I admitted dex was better at. I even said so before you posted, several times. But I also do not recognize hyperbole like "triple the dps" without proof, nor do I ignore the strong points of Int. Wanting to see or not see isnt a factor here. But being real about whats on both sides of the fence is.

Instead you want to nitpick every little detail that might be accidently off or a clear and intentional over exaggeration for effect which kinda suggests you see what I am saying but don't want to admit it.

It suggests nothing of the sort. I dont want to see wild exaggerations or incorrect pairings distort the comparison. The devs know its complicated, they know they cant think of everything, so they threw it out. So far, no one has proven its so totally lopsided as to break anything. It may define a new "best", it may change some things up, and some things down, but its not breaking anything. And it doesnt change things so much that Int is off the table. Ive freely said Dex is better at some stuff, thats not me not admitting to what dex can get... but I do see a much different conclusion.

I respectfully disagree and I profusely apologise if anything I say might be taken disrespectfully. I am just concerned about the future of my favourite class and might become overly expressive sometimes.

No worries. I dont think you were disrespectful at all, and hope I am not sounding that way. I think everyone is concerned about the class. I think the DC formulas should just change to be less punishing, which then removes a lot of the pressure on dex vs int. Then they dont have to further punish assassins with their own unique itemization problem trying to fit a +DC item in (no other class has unique +dc items for enhancement based abilities... only assassins get that penalty, everyone else can use combat mastery or something), that is also a burden for the devs to design and include taking up reward space there as well.

I mean, no ones even talked about Shadow Dagger, lol. It got completely lost in the assassinate dc talk. But theres an ability that is basically a zero no matter what you do. Maybe it gets fixed somehow, who knows. As it stands, its an imperfect pass because the main abilities hinge on outlandish situations to make the DC work at all. But the tree as a whole is better, and works better with other trees. I think dex would be great, others think less so, fine. As long as its solid points, fine. Thanks for taking the time to discuss some stuff, even if we dont agree. Cheers.

[Nothingtoseehere]

Its not my opinion you need to concern yourself over. Its the factual basis of your evidence. Which is, as pointed out, not good. Other posters have largely made further replies for me, but to highlight:
- changing to robes reduces prr/mrr significantly
- over reliance on dodge and improved defensive roll puts you into risking "1 shot" territory frequently
- retaining enough dodge effects impacts twist selection and enhancement choices
- only dps gain cited is melee power from destiny tree choice and independent of dex or int
- no dps gain from the stat change... cite one source of dps gain from stat change alone?

...
Snip
...

I mean, no ones even talked about Shadow Dagger, lol. It got completely lost in the assassinate dc talk. But theres an ability that is basically a zero no matter what you do. Maybe it gets fixed somehow, who knows. As it stands, its an imperfect pass because the main abilities hinge on outlandish situations to make the DC work at all. But the tree as a whole is better, and works better with other trees. I think dex would be great, others think less so, fine. As long as its solid points, fine. Thanks for taking the time to discuss some stuff, even if we dont agree. Cheers.

Thanks I missed the ooze flask change, that is a nice option.

I freely admit I probably should have left of the triple in hindsight I was just in a hurry and didn't stop to think about it.

The dodge build was an aside to the main build I was throwing up and I felt the swaps may have been worth it, others don't that is fine. I will never find out since I will never build it

The overall damage gain from Dex stat alone, if pump dex to max cancels roughly with KtA I imagine but I would consider the more SA dice you could get, or No mercy or letting you switch to a higher DPS ED at no DC cost as DPS increase by stat swap.

No worries. I dont think you were disrespectful at all, and hope I am not sounding that way. I think everyone is concerned about the class. I think the DC formulas should just change to be less punishing, which then removes a lot of the pressure on dex vs int. Then they dont have to further punish assassins with their own unique itemization problem trying to fit a +DC item in (no other class has unique +dc items for enhancement based abilities... only assassins get that penalty, everyone else can use combat mastery or something), that is also a burden for the devs to design and include taking up reward space there as well.

I think the Int DC is in a good spot atm. If you invest it to max you can get no fail in hardest spots but you can still get a great DC for most content and deal with a fail chance in harder stuff if you aren't at max for any reason. I also like the flavour that assassination items bring since that is their focus, though really I think the epic/mythic veneer should have both had +4 assassinate DC and messed with other abilities on it so that Epic was usable but mythic was better.

No I don't think you are being disrespectful at all either. I was just tired and felt the post came off a bit.. harsher.. for want of a better word than I intended so wanted to make it clear I wasn't intending that.

[Bobby88888]

Hey everyone. Big wall of text incoming. Part 1 Dex v Int ideas. Part 2 further Dex v Int balancing and Assassin + Rogue balancing/bonuses.

Lets all take a step back and take a look at the situation:
We have 2 main camps. Camp 1. The Dex to Assassinate will add build diversity and 2. Dex will be too powerful all on 1 stat.

Now I am in camp 2. but agree with 1.
So how about as a community we try and come up with a solution that makes us all happy? If we can do this maybe we can get both Dex and Int on the table as rough equals.

So the way I see it this is what dex should have over int and int should have over dex and what should be about the same.

Int: Assassinate, Trapping/traps Dex: Survivabilty/defences Both: Damage and general utility, healing
*General utility is a good thing to shift around to the weaker of dex or int to bring it up

So We are looking at the fields of Assassinate, Traps, trapping, defences, damage, utility and heals

Heals: They are =and probably good where they are right now but just putting here for reference.

~Assassinate: So I say I think Int should be better here. Well what does this mean? I think that with investment that means you can hit 100% success rate. So where can we put Dex then? Either at somewhere around 75% success on highest saves or give int some other perk such as bypassing dw/db and or getting assassinates on orange nameds or maybe some other cool thing if someone suggests something.

So I am going to use Hassin Assassin here as the benchmark for a no fail Assassinate DC. 74 DC with 68 int though many people would probably skip the yugo and the twist so lets say 64 int for 72 DC as our Int build here. 18 base +6 tome +7 levels [+2 capstone +2 assassin +4 harper] enhancements +11 item + 3 ins +1 exc + 2 profane +2 shippy +6 ED
DC: 10 base +20 rog +6 ED +4 item +27 Int +5 MtF= 72

And our Dex build (a halfling) has Dex of 7120 base + 6 tome +7 levels [+2 capstone +2 assassin +5 acro +1 halfling] enhancements +11 item +4 ins +1 exc +2 profane + 2 shippy +6 ED + 2 yugo) *Most people would use a dex yugo however so I have included here, though it doesn't effect this too much.
This might not make sense yet but read on: Int: 16 base +6 tome +11 item +2 ins +1 exc +2 profane + 2 shippy = 40
Which would give a DC of 75. Now given my goal of Int being better that won't work. Which brings us to my proposed solutions.

Proposed Solutions:
1. If your Dex is higher than your Int you may add 1/4 of your Dex mod to your Assassinate DC.
So I put the int I think is reasonably achievable for a dex build above but the number we are looking at is around 40-44
DC: 10 base + 20 rog +6 ED +4 item + 15-17 int + 7 dex +5 MtF= 67-69. This may still be too high being only 3-5 DC behind but it needs to be balance carefully or dex assassinate will remain obsolete so no dex assassins will arise.
Another Way to do it here might be dropping that dex from capstone (no effect on DC I listed) and maybe adding another +2 Int in its stead giving 73 Int DC vs 67-69 Dex DC.
Keep in mind that a higher Dex does boost your hide and ms for second part of DC but usually wont play into it too much.
I was aiming somewhere in the 70% to 80% success rate on harder content But IDK if that is what I got there numberwise or if that is a good spot to aim since I don't know the threshold numbers. Does this area seem acceptable to you guys?

2. Add If your Int is higher than you Dex your Assassinate bypasses DW/DB and or orange named death immunity or some other cool perk you guys come up with.


~Survivability
-Dodge: Dex builds will get more dodge since they will most likely head up the Acrobat tree as their secondary supplement tree. This works well here I think.

-PRR: Not really a rogue thing so much and I think this part should stay =.

-Other miss chances: Again not rogue abilities so whatever you invest into them you get same return for both.

-Improved Defensive roll: Not readily available to Int but most Dex can get easy while in acro. I know some people don't put much stock in this ability but I think especially once you get improved version it is a very nice buffer.

-Saves: Only reflex really plays in here which will be a little higher naturally and is as it should be. Others should stay = given = investment.
NB: Insightful reflexes feat should have to be purchased always, never given for free.

~Damage:
Int has KtA and Dex will frequently have No mercy and possibly some bonus SA dice from racial tree. Even ignoring that Int has to invest a lot into harper for Int to hit and damage.
So step 1. Put int to hit and damage in first 2 assassin cores along with the dex, though no damage on all finessable weapons, only daggers and kukris for int. Harper still has lots of goodies and you will probably want the +4 int over there but I think that step is well needed. The int to hit and damage in harper will still see use by others but not assassins who rely on cunning so they should have int to damage.
Step 2. Well I still think there is some imbalance here but I am not sure how to go about rectifying that right now. Any suggestions?

~Trapping: More skill points with higher disable and search. Mostly wont matter too much but apparently ToEE has big traps with high DCs so maybe it will soon matter more. Dex gets better open lock but as people have said it isn't as useful and at any rate having better in 1 of 4 is fine I think

~Traps: I know this is Mechanic department but it Weighs in heavily on this discussion so I am putting it here.
Some traps this has no effect on being int or dex and some it does. supposedly. Perhaps die damage with a fraction of int mod or durations or say give web trapsa % chance to not be destroyed by fire = to int mod. Something to bump traps more over into the Int direction but still workable and worthwhile for Dex.

~Utility: So I have covered most of this under other titles already but there is still one or two.
-CC all comes from EDs and traps and favours Int builds via Daunting Roar and Web traps with slightly better DCs though Web traps will still work well for Dex based. In the end comes out roughly =.



Did I miss any major points?

What do you guys think? Any ideas there you want to improve on or replace? Where do you think the balance line between Dex and Int should lie?
If we can get a proposition together soon enough and present it as a unified group we may still be able to get Dex assassins bought back without eclipsing Int. I very much doubt we can come up with something that pleases everyone but if we make some compromises and work together maybe, just maybe, this can get pushed through.

Thanks

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is already a lengthy post so I apologise for that and for continuing.

This part relates to the 1st but isn't about Dex and Int balance but rather Assassin tree as a whole and boosts and Rogue as a whole. I think it ties in and don't want to do a new post so it is going on the end here

~SA:
Assassin - 8 die
Mech 4 die, 5 non repeating
Acro 0

With the new Mech tree it feels like they are trying to encroach on Assassin with their SA die and Assassin still could use a little more damage I think so I have a couple of ideas I want to put out there for this.

1. Add SA die to cores of Assassin. I am thinking either Core 1: You can 1 SA die for each core you have in this tree. That gets you to 14 SA die from assassin which Acros will mostly be going for Assassin's Trick (or so many say they will) so they will be able to hit 5 SA die on the way there with a 6th easy to grab. This is 3 more for them than before too. Mechanics will likely get a little bit of Assassin things too so they will be looking at a few more SA die as well but IDK how much.
Assassin - 8 to 14
Mech 4/5 to ~8/9?? (6/7 to ~8/9)??
Acro 2/3 to 5/6

Which may be a bit too much in Assassin? so
2. Add a SA die to selected cores, 1/3/5 or some other combo or just 1-5 point is not all of them. Since I haven't come up with specifics here no numbers

~Lethality: Logically Lethality comes up next. Vorpal is now a weak ability, 100 damage on a 100k hp mob is negligible. So put some form of critical multiplier for SA damage here. Either using weapon multiplier or a preset.
1. On vorpals your SA damage now critical hits using a) your weapon crit multiplier or b) for 2x damage or c) for 3x damage.

2. On Criticals your SA damage now critical hits using a) your weapon Crit multiplier or b) 2x or c) 2x on crits and 3x on vorpals

Couple of options there that all do similar things. say we have 250 SA damage.
1. a) we vorpal for 4x damage = 1k SA b) 500 SA dmage or c) 750 SA damage. Remembering on Vorpal only.
2. a) we crit for 3x damage = 750 SA and we vorpal for 1k b) Crit for 500 SA c) cirt for 500 SA and vorpal for 750 SA.

~Capstone: And where else next but the next core?
Above I recommended maybe +0 dex +4 int but I am not sure if 4 int is too much. The +2 dex on there however is too much I think. The reflex isn't overly good or needed I think but unless something goes on there enough to warrant dropping it leave it there.
1. Add scaling damage for MP on SA such as based on INT mod. If the damage from above between Dex and Int is too lopsided one way or the other using the Mod here is one way to push it back to central as it will be 25-30% vs 15-17% If discrepancy is still too large using half mod balances further to 13-15% vs 8-9% ofc numbers that small provide only a small DPS boost but we aren't trying to make the next Pally, barb or bard here, just balance within and give a small boost. I think this is a good way to try smooth out DPS between Dex and Int given above proposed changes.
2. Horizontal Power. Rogues are the masters of skill so more of a thematic bonus with some slightly usefull bits. a) +X to all class skills (X=say 2-4) or b) +Y to hide/ms/listen/spot, the tools of a stealthy assassin (Y= say 4-6)

The two options are not mutually exclusive.
Deadly Shadow: +2 int, +10 MP, +4 SA die + gain 1/4 of int mod as bonus scaling of MP on SA damage (Int build ~115%, Dex ~109%) + some small skill bonus for horizontal thematic bonus.


Thoughts? Opinions? Suggestions? This ties into the 1st half of post with more balancing for Dex and Int and a little bit of between trees. The main things are lethality and Capstone but the SA die also feels like Mech is getting a bit into our territory and would like to see a little more die available to assassins in resposne which can also boost mech and acro SA a little bit more but not as much while its happening.

Really sorry for the big big wall of text but I think that they are important ideas to put out to you guys so that we can look at the Assassin and Rogue and try to get it polished and get Dex back on the Table side by side with Int

Thanks all for your attention and I hope my spot skill is enough to see you ingame :O

[slarden]

Hey everyone.
<snip> to save space
...

Great post I am only snipping due to size.

I think all the theory-crafting confuses the issue.

The imbalance comes down to 2 basic things:

1) int-based assassins will need to take insightful reflexes in a feat-starved build
2) int-based assassins spend 4 extra action points and additionally have to go to tier 3 of the harper tree to take both int-to-hit and int-to-damage. This locks you out of tier 4 of the acrobat tree which has some really useful stuff - namely no mercy which can either be combined with sense weakness or replace it.

There are other differnces besides these and in total dex wins, but it's not by a huge margin. However, these 2 points are reasons I would always choose dex assassin if available. That is where the problem is - dex is always better.

If insightful reflexes was auto-granted in the capstone and int-to-hit and int-to-damage was autogranted in the core somewhere (even capstone) I think the major 2 issues are resolved.

Without these 2 balancing changes - dex should not be used as a stat in assassinate.

[Propane]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

I agree - it would be too good - (ducks as things are thrown at me).

Too many ways to boost and stack - would put too much power into 1 stat...

[Bobby88888]

Great post I am only snipping due to size.

I think all the theory-crafting confuses the issue.

The imbalance comes down to 2 basic things:

1) int-based assassins will need to take insightful reflexes in a feat-starved build
2) int-based assassins spend 4 extra action points and additionally have to go to tier 3 of the harper tree to take both int-to-hit and int-to-damage. This locks you out of tier 4 of the acrobat tree which has some really useful stuff - namely no mercy which can either be combined with sense weakness or replace it.

There are other differnces besides these and in total dex wins, but it's not by a huge margin. However, these 2 points are reasons I would always choose dex assassin if available. That is where the problem is - dex is always better.

If insightful reflexes was auto-granted in the capstone and int-to-hit and int-to-damage was autogranted in the core somewhere (even capstone) I think the major 2 issues are resolved.

Without these 2 balancing changes - dex should not be used as a stat in assassinate.

Thanks, yeah It just seemed to be making things messy.

May I ask where you would make the balance point if you decided it and why you are ok with dex being better assassinaters than int?

To me the Assassin is cunning above all but I have nothing against letting Dex builds work, infact I'm for it, diversity and all that, but they shouldn't surpass Int when it comes to assassinate.

Completely agree with Int to hit and damage in cores though it doesn't do as much since you need to go harper still for int probably but it saves a few AP there and I think that is fair.
I like that you are coming up with the very simple solution for the problem but I think it needs more than that and I may be overcomplicating things in the process but I’m trying not to


Having thought some more, saying that you are a Dex build therefore you can't get 100% assassinate DC is not the way to go. If you go Dex and invest in it, it should work for you.
But if both get no fail DC then what is left for Int in terms of Assassinate to be better at.
IDEA: capstone: rather than insightful reflexes which Slarden proposed I counter-propose putting on capstone the ability for assassins to ignore DB for assassinate if your INT is higher than your Dex, also leting you assassinate EH/EE orange nameds^ if you have the DC.
#I considered DW too but think that is too much and reduces the strategic element in taking out the DW caster before they can cast it.
^provided wiki is right in saying they get given innate DB which is why insta kill immune.

What do people think?
Rather than limiting Dex reduce Ints limitations so their assassination has more versatility but equal power.

Capstone would look something like this:
Deadly Shadow: +4 to int*, +4 SA dice, +4 reflex saves and gain the feat ‘Assassination Master’ if you meet the requirements. (Assassination Master: Your Assassinate now counts as a Martial Death effect in terms of overcoming DB. Requires using Int to Assassinate DC.)

*Yes I switched the +2 Dex to Int in capstone there given some calcs I did below.
Implement as feat or hard coded as an enhancement, doesn’t matter.

Set assassinate DC at 10 + rog level + Int or Dex mod + other bonuses.

Numbers for Assassinate DC: Based on numbers changed capstone: +4 Int, +0 Dex.
Int: 18 base + 6 tome +7 levels [+4 capstone +2 assassin +4 Harper](+10) enhancements +11 item +3 ins +1 exc +2 profane +2 shippy +6 ED = 66 (28) **yugo +1 mod
Dex: 20 base +6 tome +7 levels [+2 assassin +3 Shadow dodge +2 acro +2 Halfling or Harper](+9) enhancements +11 item +4 ins +1 exc +2 profane +2 shippy +6 ED +2 yugo = 70 (30) ***Tensers +2 mod
DC:
Int: 10 base +20 rog +6 ED +4 item +28 Int +5 MtF = 73 ** 74
Dex: 10 base +20 rog +6 ED +4 item +30 Dex +5 MtF = 75 *** 77

** maybe yugo pots need a review and either up penalty on Dex or down it on Int but that I doubt will happen this update if ever.
*** Tensers creates an interesting case. See below.

Has this gone too far again but? Dex gets a marginally better DC by 2(4) but Int can bypass DB. I think this DC difference is passable then given the extra versatility Int assassins would get. Dex can have an easier time getting their DC but Int will be the master if they can get their DC there. Or is balancing the formula so Dex gets the ~75% success rate a better way to go?
Adding Dex is good for versatility and the game but only if done right. It will also help newer players get better DCs without all the stuff my sample builds here had. In that strain of thought is the Tensers bonus too much in the end?
Tensers: For new assassins it is good since helps make up for lack of gear but for established the +2 DC is too much I think.
1. Add +4 int to tensers – Helps new assassins
2. Add -2 assassinate DC to tensers
3. Add a similar but opposite style spell – Helps new assassins
4. Leave as is since bypassing DB is too much if DCs are too close. –Helps some new assassins
New spell (rough) sample: +4 int, con and wis (or cha) +2 to saves? (or dodge?) -2 to tactical feat DCs and doubles CD on tactical feats. Make it an arti spell.

Currently I think^ Dex isn't going through so if you want Dex added let’s work together on this and come up with an idea we all like (or no-one likes, sign of a good compromise :P ) to push to the devs, as a unified player base it may just work. Or we can just go OK no Dex, can't be balanced, and stop pushing for it to be done and done right.
^To my limited knowledge on the subject of what the Devs plans are, but basing on that it isn't going to Lam.

So what does everyone think?

[slarden]

May I ask where you would make the balance point if you decided it and why you are ok with dex being better assassinaters than int?

The feat is a critical difference on a feat-starved build. Auto-granting it in the capstone completely eliminates the balance issue there.

There are many trade-offs with AP swings between Harper, Racial and the other rogue trees. Ignoring exotic biuld concepts for a minute, whether you are dex or int based you are likely going to go with 8 pts in harper tree for KtA.

Prior to Harper tree I was into tier 4 of the thief acrobat tree with a little bit in the sun elf racial tree for emergency self-healing. That cost me 1 to my assassinate vs. mechanic tree, but as a sun elf I was already at +2 since my int started at 20 and I had 2 int in the racial core. Overall the acrobat tree was good enough to give up the 2 int esp since to hit and damage were dex base then.

With the addition of harper tree it was an obvious replacement for most of my acrobat-tree spend, but it came at a cost of losing no mercy. I don't value improved defensive roll as much as others and likely wouldn't take it.

Much has been brought up about trapping which is a non-issue. The bottom line is that int and dex are both good stats for a rogue. My disable is currently at 104 when I swap on manual of stealthy pilfering and cast GH on myself so losing 4 int from starting stat, 4 from ED, 7 from level ups and 8 from enhancements my disable drops from 104 to 92 which is currently at a no-fail with the +5 bonus I get from thieve's tools. If needed I can swap on tinker's goggles which costs me 1 int adding +4 disable overall so I am at a 101 disable with the bonus from thieve's tools and tinker's goggles as a dex build. If I make 2 gear swaps instead of 1 my search is at 106 as an int build and 94 as a dex build which is currently no fail.

The real problem though in temple of elemental evil with randomized traps is spot because wisdom is a dump stat for most rogues and +6 wis greensteel doesn't really fit what a rogue needs most. I am at a 79 with my existing gear and GH which I think is good, but may not be enough for the newer content- I don't know. So if that is not enough my options are to drop 2 int from shadowdancer for +7 to spot,disable, open, search which would likely negate any boost in int skill requirements. If that doesn't work there is a twist and greensteel swapping as options. Either way, I am likely to boost my int skills to boost my spot so if ToEE traps requires as high DC as people think, my search and disable will likely get some boost as I boost my spot. So trapping is a complete non-issue - there are many ways to address it.

So overall I think freeing up the feat slot and freeing up 4AP to balance int builds with dex builds solves the majority of the issues. The other differences are largely minor and the fact that you can boost your dex but not int while going deep into acrobat isn't an issue to me. The easy temporary dex boosts also don't bother me that much either. They are all positives, but int builds have some positives as well. To me it's only the feat and 4 AP that makes dex the clear winner. If you balance the tree to account for those 2 issues, giving the option of dex and int builds seems like a good idea. I don't think it's a good idea to add dex as an assassinate stat with no balancing though. There would be no reason to ever make an int build.

Also realistically I like the idea of both options and if the balance issues can't be addressed simply they will just scrap the whole idea. Allowing dex-based assassins would open up assassin to more people and make it more new-player friendly since dex is easier to work with. Still, it shouldn't be done without some easy-button balancing.

If you do want to go into trapmaking they will be no-fail either way if you take improved traps so it's not an advantage for either build. It only takes 8 AP to take the top tier of improved traps. It will be compelling to spend 8 pts here since Sev acknowledged that magical traps will use the disable skill and the existing situation on live is WAI. DC is supposed to be 10 + spell level + int modifier which is useless of course.

[Dreppo]

Here is where you don't understand. Let's take a human rogue (not halfling or drow). You are spending 41 APs in assassin, 3 in racial and 24 in Harper to get 9 INT, leaving 10 APs to spend elsewhere. And you can't get any more INT from enhacnements because you are missing 2 APs if you'd want to get +1 INT from mechanic. Now, DEX one spends 41 APs in assassin, 3 in racial and 16 APs in acrobat to get the same ability mod as INT one. That leaves you 20 APs. Those 20 APs can get you 4 more DEX from Harper and acrobat!!

Your math is slightly off, specifically the statement "DEX one spends 41 APs in assassin, 3 in racial and 16 APs in acrobat to get the same ability mod as INT one". With this expenditure you only get 8 DEX (4 from assassin, 1 from racial, 3 from acrobat), one less than the 9 INT (4 from assassin, 1 from racial, 4 from harper). Now once you spend your remaining APs to pick up 4 more DEX (2 from acrobat, 2 from harper), you'd have 12 DEX vs 9 INT.

The difference of 3 is explained by the 3 DEX from Shadow Dodge. It's really as simple as that, no need to make it more complicated. If Shadow Dodge didn't exist, then the available DEX/INT enhancements would be mirror images of each other, available for the same costs at the same levels of investment.

[redoubt]

Scrolling tensors all the time has it's own opportunity cost, it's something you're doing instead of DPS or sneaking or assassinating... it's also knocking you out of sneak mode when you cast it which is a net loss for DC... So unless you're one of the top players in DDO I suspect Tensors scrolls can be safely tagged with the "Forum Version of DDO Bulls*** flag" for considering them as an "always on +3 to Assassinate DC" OR for always on DPS (on a Assassin at least).
.

Tensor's is easy. I do it on my paladin often. If we are running (note running) up to a hard fight, I hit:
1. displace clickie
2. haste clickie
3. TENSOR'S scroll
4 divine might
5. DC zeal (about the time I get to the fight)
6. consecration

Its not that hard. Do it a couple seconds earlier on a rogue so you can drop to sneak and pick up MtF.

[brzytki]

Your math is slightly off

Yes, you are right. My mistake but it doesn't change much in the point of the post.

[IronClan]

Haha, so I noticed others have already pointed out that you can't read breakdowns much, but since your post is clearly directed at me I couldn't help but respond. Bolded part of your post specially for you, so you can read it again and think about it before your open your mouth again.

I don't know who you are, and I'm 100% sure my post wasn't directed at you.

I for one think it's a **** shame that Sev is going to make a design choice almost entirely because Tensors scrolls can be UMD'ed when to counter that all he would need to do would be put +4 INT into the capstone (like almost all the other new Capstones have) and delete the +2 Dex he is currently planning on putting in there.

Here is where you don't understand. Let's take a human rogue (not halfling or drow). You are spending 41 APs in assassin, 3 in racial and 24 in Harper to get 9 INT

Why Human as opposed to Morninglord?

I'd like to see how it's easy to have 200 without trying. You have max 150% from gear (Epic/Mythic Minos, not really ideal for a rogue) or 130% from TF armor. To compensate for Yugo you HAVE to twist Brace. That costs you a twist, obviously.

You know how few Mobs even bypass 100% fort? Or 150%? Almost every character I have without trying has 150-200% The truth of course in REAL DDO is that almost no one uses Yugo pots, as evidenced by the complete lack of Amrath LFM it is therefore a real pain in the a** when game design is dictated by something few people actually bother with. Cue "well I use Yugo pots so everyone ese must be using them".

Not really an attack, it lasts for 12 sec though and to get 1 more DC for 1 AP is quite good, even if you have to tumble once every 12 seconds. Not so irrelevant.

You're right I confused it for a Staff attack, I was wrong.

So now you're spending 31 Points in T/A to get it, 3 AP in race for 1 DEX and have a whole 5AP left after 41AP in Assassin tree. So you're not getting KtA which means you're losing at least 7 base damage to get +1 DC for 12 seconds after you tumble... Is this the part where DEX would be OP?

No one said you'd have perma Tensors. Stop putting your words in our mouths.

No one said it, but that hasn't stopped some of you (not necessarily you, the first two posts I've read of yours that I recall were today) from leaving it as an unstated assumption, implying that scrolling tensors constantly is like permanent +6 DEX, that comment is directed at those who are glossing over this, to them I say stop ignoring that it knocks you out of sneak and stop pretending you only ever play the same quest over and over so you can memorize exactly when you're going to need to hit your scroll fix right before you sneak. This is blatant Forum DDO, not even 2% of the player base is going to maintain such a clunky mechanic perfectly with Scroll/Stealth/MtF butting heads every time you don't remember to hit a scroll before you get to a fight, OR don't hit a scroll because you didn't know you were going to run out mid fight. And then also the slow down of sneak mode in there adding urgency to get to your target before the melee's kill everything.

In real DDO the first step you'll skip/forget will be hitting that scroll.

But here's the thing. You don't have to buy all the DEX enhancements from TA and Harper because you'd end up with a DC that is higher than you need.

This is true of max INT as well in 99.999% of content, and is why some Assassins already run in LD instead of SD, I've already noted that a DEX based can scroll +3 DC as a tradoff. I don't see a problem with this, and I DO see a problem with the Dev's deciding to not implement something because a bunch of wolf crying about how OP DEX would be.

INT as a best DPS only if both stay in SD and as we can see by going DEX you can have the same (or -1 DC) as INT one, which still would be almost no-fail in the toughest content, while in LD. Doing much more damage. It all comes down to this: give me an INT build and i'll convert it to DEX build that has higher similar DC and higher DPS.

Do you not agree that we are already down to DEX versus INT being a tradeoff? That would be balanced a little better by simply making the Capstone 4 INT and no DEX. People who hate short buffs and/or the clunky drop you out of stealth mechanic (and they are many) will choose INT (and would chose it even if the capstone remains +2 +2) and people who love to juggle clickies will choose DEX... This is EXACTLY how they should design stuff. More skill ceiling, more choices, not less.

We've gone from:

"DEX is like triple the damage lel !!!!!!!!1111"

To even the opposition admitting:
"INT as a best DPS only if both stay in SD"

You say only if you stay in SD like that's not what a tremendous number of assassins will do... Yes as I've already noted LD is also popular (already even with only INT) and would remain totally viable for INT based assassins. because of course they don't need Max DC in all content CURRENTLY, even with INT. This wont change with DEX as an option... A tremendous number of players will also have zero interest in scrolling Tensors to get 3 more Mod and tumbling every 12 seconds and having the equivalent to 78 STR for melee DPS, instead of having KtA and the quivelent to 95-100 STR for melee DPS.

DEX as an option is balanced by making the Capstone +4 INT* with no DEX, it's that easy. And that is how close they are to already being a balanced option.

* This is where someone accuses me of wanting to get 2 more INT for more Know the Angles, as my motive to want DEX as a choice LOL