Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Full_Bleed]

Sorry, I am sad I've never seen any rogue better than me in my server yet since 2008.

So, be honest, you're going to stay with an INT build after DEX works with assassinate confident that your uberness will overcome any exaggerated claims that DEX builds will dominate?

Well, I guess that makes one of you.

[jaggyjag]

~ A sneaking assassin seems pretty quick to me, but I admittedly haven't played it in a group since we just finished putting it into Assassin. It will be good feedback from Lamannia.

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

~ The way Melee and Ranged Power works is this:

If MP is positive, the multiplier to damage is (100 + Rating)/100.
If MP is negative, the multiplier to damage is 100/(100 + Rating)

Note that many monsters do not currently have any Melee or Ranged Power. (I'd have to check if the champion buffs use MP and RP or just a straight damage boost.)

Sev~

Sev,

All the Assassin back and forth has been great but it's time to get down to brass tack before this is up and running on Lammannia. The most important issue for a assassin is assassinating. Lucky for all of us players and for you Devs the answer has made itself quite clear the past months:

Assassinate's DC should be a skill based number similar to the Bard's Coup De grace. since Turbine went that way with the swashbuckler it's the only rational move that can be taken with the assassin class, whose primary role is to assassinate. I have spoken with many of my guild and raiding friends and really I would have to say getting Assassination fixed is a make or break point for any work you do on the class.

As I said it is dead simple, a skill would set the DC just as perform sets the DC for Coup De Grace. It could be a existing skill like sneak or hide, or it could be a new skill introduced as spell craft was. Using a new skill would have the upside of avoiding a balance issue that any pre-existing sneak or whatever existing skill Turbine chose may have had. The down side being the creation of a new skill. But then again perform skill items were widely available before Coup De Grace was introduced.

Other similarities; as Coup De Grace has the prerequisite of the target being helpless, Assassination would have the prerequisite of the the strike being a melee sneak attack made from a Assassin in sneak. Just as Coup it would only work against appropriate targets, no constructs, undead, elementals, etc....

And finally a cool down of between 12-24 seconds depending on the number of ranks bought in assassinate.

This is not my personal creation it is the work of many long-time and very switched on players, and really is the only practical and fair way to handle the manner. For 9 months Assassin players have been playing second fiddle to swashbuckler in this, but now we can get things back to where they should be. It's not like there are a lot of singing assassin's is there? of course death metal bands...hmmm....


Thanks for all the work, we all really look forward to your feedback about this, before it goes live on Lammannia.

[Bobby88888]

Sev,

All the Assassin back and forth has been great but it's time to get down to brass tack before this is up and running on Lammannia. The most important issue for a assassin is assassinating. Lucky for all of us players and for you Devs the answer has made itself quite clear the past months:

Assassinate's DC should be a skill based number similar to the Bard's Coup De grace. since Turbine went that way with the swashbuckler it's the only rational move that can be taken with the assassin class, whose primary role is to assassinate. I have spoken with many of my guild and raiding friends and really I would have to say getting Assassination fixed is a make or break point for any work you do on the class.

As I said it is dead simple, a skill would set the DC just as perform sets the DC for Coup De Grace. It could be a existing skill like sneak or hide, or it could be a new skill introduced as spell craft was. Using a new skill would have the upside of avoiding a balance issue that any pre-existing sneak or whatever existing skill Turbine chose may have had. The down side being the creation of a new skill. But then again perform skill items were widely available before Coup De Grace was introduced.

Other similarities; as Coup De Grace has the prerequisite of the target being helpless, Assassination would have the prerequisite of the the strike being a melee sneak attack made from a Assassin in sneak. Just as Coup it would only work against appropriate targets, no constructs, undead, elementals, etc....

And finally a cool down of between 12-24 seconds depending on the number of ranks bought in assassinate.

This is not my personal creation it is the work of many long-time and very switched on players, and really is the only practical and fair way to handle the manner. For 9 months Assassin players have been playing second fiddle to swashbuckler in this, but now we can get things back to where they should be. It's not like there are a lot of singing assassin's is there? of course death metal bands...hmmm....


Thanks for all the work, we all really look forward to your feedback about this, before it goes live on Lammannia.

Oh dear I sincerely hope not. Luckily Sev already said they wouldn't be using skills for it after the utter failure that Coup De Grace was. If they did that it would probably be enough to make me leave my favourite class. Really Coup De Grace should be removed and a more appropriate ability put in place there but this is not the place for such a discussion. Coup should not be considered a benchmark for anything but ways to create game imbalance, OPness and ruining the game.

I do however agree that Assassination needs fixing, just not the DC that is one area where it is perfectly balanced right now. The only improvements needed to it is to find whatever code is causing the Assassination aggro on hit to vary between updates, making it so db/dw and orange named mobs can all be assassinated through and call it a day on assassinate.

[levy1964]

i post this post in Acrobat thread but think this same should be here. look guys

hmm, but i still think there is somethink wrong with pure rogue atm, let's look on pure ranger ench tree, there is 1 tree "arcane archer" focus on bow, Tempest tree focus on TWF and Stalker support tree on both fight style depend on what we choice TWF on Ranged or...meyby both, this greate synergy betwean trees.

now look on Rogue, we have assasins tree focus on higher SA and assasinate ability, and acrobat tree focused on better DPS, but if u choice to be rogue Acrobatic (with staff), assasins tree still have synergy with staff acrobat, moar SA damage, killer ?, execute ?.

but if want to be assasins TWF, acrobat tree suck completly, no any synergy for TWF, staff only, there is what? no marcy ? it is so bad and uslesss tree completly on ppl who aspect on TWF/Assasins.

=
if u are Acrobat u have synergy with Assasins tree and Mechanic it's support tree
if u are Assasins don't have synergy with Acrobat tree and Mechanic support tree

so that's why i think this is.....stupid and bad planner tree completly for pure assasins who don't want Assasinate, who want be mayby STR build mayby ascpect totaly on DPS, and rogue DPS atm have one choice.....staff

[Ayseifn]

I don't take any enhancements from assassin on acrobats, there's better places to spend the AP.

SA doesn't proc on multiple mobs so not of great benefit, Killer doesn't stack with Quick Strike and is 5% DS worse and everything else that'd be tempting is really expensive. With the changes I might take some assassin enhancements, probably still better off spending those APs somewhere else though.

[levy1964]

I don't take any enhancements from assassin on acrobats, there's better places to spend the AP.

SA doesn't proc on multiple mobs so not of great benefit, Killer doesn't stack with Quick Strike and is 5% DS worse and everything else that'd be tempting is really expensive. With the changes I might take some assassin enhancements, probably still better off spending those APs somewhere else though.

killer it's 20% DS, and yes u have right there is better place to spend point, that's why eee.... ZEUS build are better choice

[levy1964]

i think this is how i see good planner tree on rogUe

Assasins tree aspect:
-Stealth
-boost Sneak attack DMG
-debuff
Acrobat tree aspect:
-AoE staff DPS
-support TWF (old) Assasins style
-support Defence (dodge) on both style
Mechanic tree Aspect
-deadly sub-class for creating ambush (cround controll)
-massive AoE elemental dmg from mine (remote controll detonate)

this is how should look synergy, let my show u:

i want to by Acrobat aspect on AoE staff DPS with Debuffs and have options to create ambush (CC)
i want to by Assasins aspect on stealth, deadly SA dmg (boost from Acrobat my TWF style) and have option to massive AoE elemental DMG
i want to by Assasins aspect on Assasinate with support defence from acrobat and have deadly ambush options + massive AoE ele dmg
i want to be Acrobat aspect on TWF and Tactic with High SA dmg from Assasins tree and have option to create ambush


this is option to stay on pure and have many aspect on setup us playstyle, here is so many choice, and with good balanced all 3 tree this no mean this be OP....Dev's i want have choice this is why i play in DDO, for customization my personal playstyle

[amsharkwei]

T4 Killer not work well,it's useless in most of the time

How about rework this enhancement

Killer:Every 15/10/5 second,you gain a killer buff,your next attack have 100% double strike chance,a successful hit consume this buff.

[amsharkwei]

Core abilities:
Lethality: Any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike (attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation) that you make will kill most living targets.
-5% chance deal 100 damage is a joke in Epic level
-rework it:Any attack that roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation treat as an assassinate attack,Kills a living target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). Even on a successful save, the target takes 500 additional damage.

T1:
Toxin Affinity: : +1/+2/+3 Fortitude saves vs. Poisons and to the save DC of your Poison attacks.
-I don't know what's this enhancement use for,increase the poison strike's DC? You really kidding me.
-rework it:+1/+2/+3 Fortitude saves vs. Poisons and dodge bouns.

T2:
Bleed Them Out: Melee Attack: Deal +1/+2/+3[W] damage and on successful damage causes your opponent to bleed. The bleed deals 1d6 damage every 2 seconds for 14 seconds.effect can stack up to 5 times. (Cooldown: 6 seconds)
-Useless even the bleed damage scales with 200% Melee Power.
-rework it:Passive ability:every critical hit from your attack causes your opponent to bleed. The bleed deals 1d6 damage every 2 seconds for 14 seconds.effect can stack up to 5 times. scales with 200% Melee Power.

T3:
Shadow Dagger: Throw a dagger made of solidified shadows at your enemy. Deals 4d8/6d8/8d8 unholy damage and blinds the target (Fort DC 10/14/18 + half Rogue level + Int modifier Negates blindness). (Cooldown: 30/20/10 seconds)
-Interesting ability,but useless because of the low DC.
-rework iteals bane damage,and blinds the target 10/14/18 second without save.

T4:
Killer: When you kill a target, gain +5% morale bonus to Doublestrike and Doubleshot for 15 seconds. Weak enemies will not always produce this effect. The killer buff can stack up to 2/3/4 times.
-useless in most of the time.
-rework it:Every 15/10/5 second,you gain a killer buff,your next attack have 100% double strike chance,a successful hit consume this buff.

shark~

[amsharkwei]

Toxin Affinity;Bleed Them Out;Shadow Dagger

I think no one will set Action Points in these 3 enhancement

[Bobby88888]

There has been a slightly worrying silence on the Dev end after dropping the dex to assassinate idea in our midst a few days back. I hope this is while they try to come up with some other idea to put in to boost assassins rather than that.

In that vein of thought I would like to put forward a list of my suggestions of changes/fixes that I think assassin could do with to help with ideas and possible areas where improvements could be made.

Cores:
1 and 3: I really don't know what to put here but they are poor enhancements and could do with some revisions. Perhaps something based on AP spent in tree or adding some SA dice or other assassin related things to them and or all cores.

12: Nimbleness: I'm not convinced yet but I have an idea here in regards to complete invincibility. I will be taking a close look at this one on Lam but I think it should go back to on SA only, not just on hit, it will proc way too much otherwise.

18: Lethality is not any good any more. It used to be one of the most prized abilities, and it could be again whilst giving assassins a well needed DPS boost by simply changing it to give critical multiplier on critical hits with SA damage (or on vorpals only but I think all crits wouldn't be too powerful though do some number crunching on if you think it should be a set multiplier or use your weapons.)

20: Deadly Shadow: I am still really not feeling like this is a capstone that really gives some umph. I know I have suggested in the past add additional scaling of SA damage from MP here but perhaps it was too much. I would rather see a more unique ability added here or something that scales on investment (but not too high) or both.

Tier 1:
Poison Strikes: So these abilities are in and of themselves terrible but they will be taken at least once for Assassin's Mark. On that thought perhaps rework them into that theme rather than having conflicting themes within the ability. At the very least drop the cost to 1 AP, they never were worth 2. Same for the higher Tier versions.

Toxin Affinity: This does nothing really worth mentioning. rework or scrap or replace?

Sneak Attack Training: Personal bone to pick - I don't think the +1 SA die and +1 to hit is worth 2 AP, Halfing costs 1 for SA die and 1 for the hit + skill (admitably a prereq) but I would be fine with dropping the to hit bonus or adding a skill or whatever to them. Same for higher Tier versions.

Stealthy: I'm unsure if you are adding Sneak Speed to this or replacing with Sneak Speed but as long as it goes in is good but could do with an increase in the speed department for sneaking. Both together sounds cool but.

Tier 2:
Bleed Them Out: Still not something overly desirable, no idea how to fix it.

Tier 3:
Shadow Dagger: Not any good really, a DC boost wouldn't be amiss and maybe some other boon.

Tier 4:
Weakening Strikes: The increased reduction based on Rogue level should go through if it hasn't already (not in OP)

Killer: Gain a stack when target under effect of Assassin's Mark dies (may need to shorten duration with this one) or make stacks fade 1 at a time.

Execute: At the very least please let us have an option to have a marker on mob hp bars at 30% so we can tell when we can use (can make toggle on or off in options) but I think a little more damage, or maybe make damage crittable or slightly higher for crits.

Tier 5:
Deadly Strikes: Bonus feels a little small, maybe make melee power or change to SA damage and make a smidgen higher?

Light Armour Mastery: (If you drop base PRR from armours down assassins will loose 5 PRR and get 6 back here for +1 PRR, more of a putting abck where we found it than boosting a little enhancement) Boost the PRR a bit more, 5/10/15 is still only +10 PRR from currently given aforementioned.

Measure the Foe: 1st stack fades after 10 seconds with the rest lasting 3 seconds each, or similar. You burst out of stealth and have the element of surprise which lasts for a bit then wears off as enemies recover.

Knife Spec: Ok there isn't anything really wrong with this. But is it just me or does this feel like the perfect place to add something really unique and flavourful in to go with this, just don't ask me what

Alternative methods of buffing include letting Assassinate bypass DW and DB and letting Orange named mobs be assassinate.

Now I hardly expect most of those changes to be made, Infact I hardly expect any, but I think they provide some good ideas for some buffs to assassins that they should get that are flavourful and fun. If I had to choose a single change to pass from them but it would be the Lethality change or the alternatives for opening up assassination options.
Right now I feel like its an unfinished pass but it will be heading to Lam soon and if it goes through unfinished it will forever remain that way.
Thanks and I really hope to hear more about how and where things are going for the assassin.

[slarden]

T4:
Killer: When you kill a target, gain +5% morale bonus to Doublestrike and Doubleshot for 15 seconds. Weak enemies will not always produce this effect. The killer buff can stack up to 2/3/4 times.
-useless in most of the time.
-rework it:Every 15/10/5 second,you gain a killer buff,your next attack have 100% double strike chance,a successful hit consume this buff.

I take this and I find it to be very good, but it's much like the old Blitz where it is driven by killing enemies so the stronger a character the better it works.

You will get 5-15% immediately from assassinate for 15 seconds and that is usually when it is needed the most since the first thing I try to do in a combat situation is assassinate 1 or more targets. You have to get a kill every 15 seconds to keep it up though which works for me sometimes and not other times (skeletons are problematic for me for example). Overall it's a boost to dps so I take it.

If a better alternative came up I'd drop it.

[dualscissors]

So you want to nerf shadow dodge even harder than it already was just so assassins don't all swap over to dex based? Acrobats could still use some more dex to make it viable option.
.

The Shadow Dodge nerf was due to a stacking error that clearly was not WAI (1+2+3=+6 Dex instead of 1/2/3 Dex). Perhaps the reason it seems like a nerf to some for the acro tree to grant a 'mere' +3 stat boost is that Dex based rogues were struggling. But seriously, if the game was inundated with lots of +1/2/3 stat-ups in various trees at tier-3, you'd see a lot of DC builds capitalizing on them left and right.

But ultimately, no I don't want to nerf acrobats. They've needed some major love. I was just considering the problem of an easily reachable +3 Dex increase with regard to the conversation about Dex > Int based DCs.

Ha! Sneak Faster at Tier 1 was too much of a AP burden for Assassins that it was moved to the Assassin tree, but Tier 3 Shadow Dodge is considered low hanging fruit?!

I didn't complain about sneak speed being in acro, though I think it probably makes sense for an ~essential ability for a sneak-assassin to be in the assassin tree. By ~essential, I mean that it would be utterly miserable to play an assassinator at regular sneak speed.

As for a mental comparison of Sneak Faster at tier-1 and Dex +3 increase at tier-3, certainly it's a lot easier to dip into another tree at tier-1, and tier-3 takes some effort in AP expenditures. I was making the observation that a 1.5 DC increase from a +3 stat boost is potent grab when you consider that most tier-3 stat increases happen at 1 point increments. This in itself isn't as big of a deal unless you are considering whether one DC stat (Dex) would outclass the traditional stat (Int).

[depositbox]

Sorry, I am sad I've never seen any rogue better than me in my server yet since 2008.

Lol. That just means no one that is good plays a rogue.

[draven1]

Lol. That just means no one that is good plays a rogue.

Sadly, but it seems it's true. Many power gamers don't like playing a rogue now.
I was usually only rogue in EE raids.

By the way, I think these posts are not proper for this thread, let's change our topics to make better enhancement.
I can admit there are many people who doesn't like dex assassin, but, you can admit there are many people who like it, too.

We have something in common, we love assassins

[jaggyjag]

Oh dear I sincerely hope not. Luckily Sev already said they wouldn't be using skills for it after the utter failure that Coup De Grace was. If they did that it would probably be enough to make me leave my favourite class. Really Coup De Grace should be removed and a more appropriate ability put in place there but this is not the place for such a discussion. Coup should not be considered a benchmark for anything but ways to create game imbalance, OPness and ruining the game.

I do however agree that Assassination needs fixing, just not the DC that is one area where it is perfectly balanced right now. The only improvements needed to it is to find whatever code is causing the Assassination aggro on hit to vary between updates, making it so db/dw and orange named mobs can all be assassinated through and call it a day on assassinate.

Thanks for your input, I respectfully disagree.

Clearly your real objection is with "OPness" as you call it, and sadly that train has left the station, Sev has made it clear in his posts that Coup is not going anywhere.

That being the case, it is untenable for the Assassin class to remain as it is with it's assassinate. I know this, I have been playing since 1979 and DDO since day one, I have always retained at least three rogue characters in my stable of DDO so I like to think I know my way around the issue. My gulid, raid, play, pug friends all agree that this is the cleanest, simplest and only fair way to address the problem. To do otherwise is to reduce the Assassin to a enforcer, or footpad.

Make your voice heard people, let Sev hear that the Assassin needs to be on equal footing with the swasbuckler if not ahead. A skill based Assassination DC is the only way to retain the viability of the assassin tree.

[CThruTheEgo]

EDIT: See post #784 for my thoughts on dex vs int after further reflection, discussion, and comparison.

OK, I redid Hassan's Assassin as a dex based build. All the details are posted below my comments on the changes. Let me know if you see any inconsistencies or errors.

Overall the dex version has far more options than an int build because of greater flexibility with enhancements. On a dex build, the mandatory enhancements seem to be 41 AP in assassin for the capstone and 16 in acrobat for shadow dodge, leaving 23 to spend as you want. Investing more in assassin will get you more dps. Investing in acrobat focuses on defenses (defensive roll, max dodge from cores). Investing in harper gets you more dps from melee power. Investing in halfling gets you sneak attack dice and self healing if using the dragonmarks. Investing in shadar-kai gets you whatever that has to offer. Investing in mechanic gets you better scroll healing and improved traps. I chose to go more defensively just to see what that would offer. An int build does not have this degree of flexibility because they need to go heavily into both assassin and harper.

There are a lot of options for dex builds and some good synergy among them, but AP is the limiting factor. You just can't get everything and will have to make sacrifices. There is a lot of good stuff in assassin and I wanted to spend more, but had to trim it back to make room for stuff in other trees. A lot of good options that require difficult choices is usually a good thing. Overall, I don't see too much power increase in dex builds, just more variety. If this change goes through, I know I'll be coming up with my ideal version of each so I can decide which one I like the most.

It's also far more difficult to find an optimal gear set for dex based. I had to drop the GS HP item, which included permablur.

Hassan's Assassin - post revamp dex based version
TL: DR version:
Dex version has:
-1 DC
-8 damage from KtA
-1 damage from 66 dex vs 68 int
-5 melee power
-7 seeker
-35 hp
defensive roll below 50% hp with a 79% chance to trigger
knockdown and slippery surface immunity
an average of 40 less per tick of cocoon (average 100 hp per tick)
+3 max dex bonus (max dex bonus will be the limiting factor that determines dodge for each version)
changes to skills which are negligible and obvious with a shift in focus from int to dex

Human rogue 20
True neutral
36 point build

Build Features:
Excellent offense:
~Assassinate with a sustainable 73 DC
~dex to damage with a 66 dex
~Near max sneak attack damage: 29d6+16, with another 14 for a 3 minute burst
~Know the angles provides an extra 7 damage per hit
~75% fort bypass, 100% with assassin's trick
Excellent defense:
~High hp: 835 base, 911 self buffed
~Improved evasion with a 79 reflex save, 93 against traps
~Defensive roll with a 79% chance to trigger when below 50% hp
~25% incorp from shadow form
~27-38% dodge, depending on stacks of measure the foe and nimbleness
~35.90% physical damage mitigation from 56 PRR
~39.02% magic damage mitigation from 64 MRR
~Knockdown and slippery surface immunity
~Tumble through enemies
Decent self healing:
~Heal scrolls with 180 heal amp (hits for 308)
~Rejuvenation cocoon with 247 positive spell power and 65 heal amp (hits for an average of 100 per tick)
Excellent utility:
~Full trap capabilities (no fail on any trap or lock in the game)

Stats:
str: 8
dex: 18
con: 16
int: 15
wis: 10
cha: 8

All level up points in dex.
+5 tome in con required by level 21

Feats:
1 toughness
1h twf
3 precision
6 past life rogue: sneak of shadows
9 imp twf
12 imp crit pierce
15 gr twf
18 ???
21 epic toughness
24 imp sneak attack
26 perfect two weapon fighting
27 overwhelming crit
28 elusive target

Rogue Feats:
10 improved evasion
13 opportunist
16 defensive roll
19 slippery mind

Skills: max spot, search, disable, open lock, UMD, bluff, hide, move silently, balance, jump, listen, 2 heal, 1 tumble

Enhancements:
Assassin: 46 total
Core: 6 total
Knife in the darkness 1 (kukri proficiency, dex to hit with dagger/kukri)
Dagger in the back 1 (dex to damage with dagger/kukri)
Assassin's trick 1 (reduce target fort by 25% and sneak attack immunity for 12 seconds)
Nimbleness 1 (on attack gain 1% dodge for 6 seconds, stacks 10 times)
Lethality 1 (kill on vorpal)
Deadly shadow 1 (2 dex, 2 int, 10 melee power, 4d6 sneak attack, 4 reflex)
Tier 1: 8 total
Poison strikes 2 (apply assassin's mark for 10 seconds, some other stuff, cooldown 6 seconds)
Shiv 1 (1[W] attack with a bluff check, passive threat reduction of 5%, cooldown 12 seconds)
Sneak attack training 2 (1 to hit and 1d6 sneak attack)
Stealthy 3 (+50% movement speed while sneaking)
Tier 2: 5 total
Sneak attack training 2 (1 to hit and 1d6 sneak attack)
Melee power boost 3 (30 melee power)
Tier 3: 7 total
Critical mastery 3 (3 seeker)
Sneak attack training 2 (1 to hit and 1d6 sneak attack)
Dex 2
Tier 4: 9 total
Weakening strikes 2? (attacks against enemies with assassin's mark reduces their melee/ranged power by 10 for 10 seconds)
Killer 3 (on kill gain 5% doublestrike for 15 seconds, stacks 4 times)
Sneak attack training 2 (1 to hit and 1d6 sneak attack)
Dex 2
Tier 5: 11 total
Assassinate 1 (instakill DC 73, 10d6 additional sneak attack on failed attempt)
Measure the foe 3 (4 melee power, 2 dodge, 2 max dodge, 1 to hit, 1 assassinate DC every 1 second while stealthed, stacks 5 times, lasts 10 seconds after leaving stealth)
Knife specialization 2 (1 critical threat range and multiplier with daggers, 1 threat multiplier with kukris)
Deadly strikes 2? (5 damage against enemies with assassin's mark)
Light armor mastery 3 (3 max dodge, 6 MDB, 6 PRR)

Acrobat: 24 total
Core: 4 total
Staff control 1
Stick fighting 1
Tumbler 1 (2 max dodge, can pass through enemies when you tumble)
Kip up 1 (2 max dodge, immunity to knockdown and slippery surfaces)
Tier 1: 5 total
Sly flourish 3 (15% threat reduction)
Fast movement 2 (1% movement speed per rogue level)
Tier 2: 4 total
Subtlety 3 (-40% threat)
Haste boost 1 (10% attack speed)
Tier 3: 8 total
Shadow dodge 6 (3 dodge, 3 MDB, 3 dex)
Dex 2
Tier 4: 3
Improved defensive roll 3 (defensive roll now triggers below 50% health)

Harper: 8 total
Core: 1 total
Agent of good 1 (1 to hit vs evil, 1 universal spell power)
Tier 1: 4 total
Harper enchantment 2 (1 weapon enhancement, 20 spell points)
Traveler's toughness 2 (10 hp)
Tier 2: 3 total
Know the angles 3 (int based divine might)

Human: 1 total
Core: 1 total
Damage boost 1 (20% action boost)

Epic Destiny:
Shadowdancer
Tier 1:
stealthy 3 (6 hide, move silently, and assassinate DC)
dex 2
Tier 2:
lithe 3 (6 reflex, AC, light armor max dex bonus)
dex 2
Tier 3:
shrouding strike 3 (3[W], mark target, gain shadow charge if target dies within 10 seconds)
dex 2
Tier 4:
improved invisibility 2 (invis 20 seconds, displacement for 60 seconds after)
dex 2
Tier 5:
untouchable 1 (1% dodge for each shadow charge)
dex 2
Tier 6:
shadow form 2 (25% incorp, feather fall, +5 hide and move silently, str damage on hit, double damage from light attacks)

Twists:
1) balanced attacks (primal avatar tier 3, knockdown enemies on vorpal for 2 seconds, counts as helpless)
2) rejuvenation cocoon (primal avatar tier 1)
3) impregnable mind (magister tier 1, 6 will save, no auto fail will saves on 1)
Alternatives: hail of blows (GMoF tier 2), sense weakness (fury tier 4), extra action boost (legendary dreadnaught tier 1), primal scream (fury tier 1), energy sheath electric (draconic tier 1)

Gear Set:
Weapons: Thunder-Forged Dagger (1st degree burns/dragon's edge/mortal fear/orange slotted ruby of endless night/colorless slotted cha8)
offhand: Agony (entropic/phlebotomizing/disintegration/improved deception/red slotted positive spell power138)
ranged: Thunder-Forged Throwing Dagger (touch of flames/dragon's edge/mortal fear/orange slotted ruby of endless night/colorless slotted)
Armor: Shadowscale light armor (shadow phase x3/deathblock/ghostly/fort130/2d6 sneak attack/profane reflex1/blue slotted max dex2/green slotted golem's heart)
Goggles: Epic Mentau's Goggles (seeker10/exc seeker2/ghostly/UMD5/dex11/blue OR yellow slotted int8/green slotted int2)
Helm: Mythic Muffled Veneer (assassinate DC4/hide20/move silently20/spot20/insight reflex2/doublestrike9/blue OR yellow slotted Globe of True Imperial Blood/green slotted heal15)
Neck: Necklace of Mystic Eidolons (ghostly/deathblock/dex4/con4/eidolon summons/augment summoning/green slotted HP40/alchemical saves1)
Trinket: Epic Litany of the Dead (turn the page/profane abilities2/attack4/damage4/light of dawn/blue OR yellow slotted wiz10/green slotted fear immunity)
Cloak: Mysterious Cloak (heal amp45/MRR25/green slotted good luck2/yellow slotted protection8)
Belt: Epic Belt of Thoughtful Remembrance (deathblock7/con11/concentration20/resistance11/dodge11/greater regen/blue OR yellow slotted proof against poison10/green slotted proof against disease10)
Ring swap: Seal of House Avithoul (wis2/exc sneak3/sneak attack5/imp deception)
Gloves: Sanctified Gages (UMD5/2d6 light damage/deadly11/greater dispelling guard/blue OR yellow slotted vitality/green slotted draconic soul gem)
Boots: Epic Boots of the Innocent (resistance11/speed15/GH/vertigo12/stunning12/shatter12/yellow slotted water breathing/green slotted feather falling)
Ring: Guardian's Ring (sheltering25/str8/yellow slotted blindness immunity)
Bracers: Bracers of the Sun Soul (wis7/con2/insight AC4/insight saves4)
Quiver: Epic Quiver of Alacrity (concentration -50/ranged speed15/ranged and spell threat -15/insightful sneak4/doublestrike8)

Swap in search, disable, and open lock gear as needed and a triple positive GS weapon in the offhand with healing amp in at least tiers 1 and 2 (heal amp 60 is already on the Shroud of Ardent) for scroll healing.

Final Stats:
str25: 8base, 4tome, 8item, 1exc, 2profane, 2ship
dex66: 18base, 6tome, 7levels, 2capstone, 2assassin, 4acrobat, 11item, 4insight, 1exc, 2profane, 2yugo, 2ship, 5epic destiny
con40: 16base, 6tome, 11item, 2insight, 1exc, 2profane, 2ship
int38: 15base, 6tome, 2capstone, 8item, 2insight, 1exc, 2profane, 2ship
wis28: 10base, 4tome, 7item, 2insight, 1exc, 2profane, 2ship
cha28: 8base, 5tome, 8item, 2insight, 1exc, 2profane, 2ship

HP:
120 base
80 epic levels
25 heroic durability
20 improved heroic durability
10 draconic vitality
30 toughness feat
50 epic toughness
420 con40
40 false life slotted
20 vitality
20 hag's apothecary ship buff
835 TOTAL
28 rage
48 yugo
911 self buffed

Fort/Reflex/Will Saves:
6/12/6 base
4/4/4 epic
11/11/11 item
4/4/4 insight
2/2/2 good luck
1/1/1 alchemical
4/4/4 greater heroism
0/1/0 profane
0/6/0 lithe
0/4/0 capstone
0/0/6 impregnable mind
3/0/0 game hunter ship buff
0/2/0 chronoscope ship buff
0/0/2 grandmaster's dojo ship buff
15/0/0 con40
0/28/0 dex66
0/0/9 wis28
50/79/49 TOTAL
0/6/0 uncanny dodge
50/85/49 with uncanny dodge
0/4/0 vs traps (past life rogue x2)
0/6/0 trap sense
50/95/49 vs traps

Assassinate DC:
10 base
20 rogue levels
6 stealthy (shadowdancer tier 1)
4 Mythic Muffled Veneer
28 int66
5 measure the foe
73 TOTAL

Dodge:
6 uncanny dodge
11 item
7 shadow charges
3 shadow dodge
27% TOTAL
0-10 measure the foe
0-10 nimbleness
27-47% TOTAL

Max Dex Bonus:
19 base
2 augment
6 lithe
6 light armor mastery
3 shadow dodge
2 ship buff
38 TOTAL

Max Dodge:
25 base
3 light armor mastery
4 acrobat cores
2 ship buff
34 TOTAL
0-10 measure the foe
34-44 TOTAL

PRR:
15 light armor
11 light armor with BAB of 19
24 Guardian's Ring
6 light armor mastery
56 TOTAL (35.90% damage reduction)

MRR:
15 light armor
24 Guardian's Ring
25 Mysterious Cloak
64 TOTAL (39.02% magic damage reduction)

Heal Amp:
45 Mysterious Cloak
20 ship buff
65 TOTAL
20 heal amp GS dagger
40 heal amp GS dagger
60 heal amp GS dagger
185 with GS heal amp dagger swapped in

Sneak Attack:
10d6 rogue 20
4d6 assassin sneak attack training
4d6 deadly shadow capstone
6d6 shadowdancer level 6
3d6 improved sneak attack epic feat
2d6 profane (Shadowscale light armor)
6 exceptional sneak attack (Epic Quiver of Alacrity)
8 sneak attack (Avithoul ring)
2 past life rogue x2
29d6+16 TOTAL or 117.5 average sneak attack damage
14 past life sneak of shadows
29d6+30 TOTAL or 131.5 average for a 3 minute burst
This is only short from max sneak attack by 3d6 from halfling, +3 from exceptional sneak attack 6, +1 from a third rogue past life.

Fortification Bypass:
25 precision
10 opportunist
35 Thunder Forged Dagger with dragon's edge
5 trapsmith's workshop ship buff
75% Base
25 assassin's trick (assassin core 3, DC59 will)
100% TOTAL

Spot:
23 base
8 epic
3 tome
9 wis28
20 item
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 danger room ship buff
4 GH
73 TOTAL

Search:
23 base
8 epic
3 tome
15 int38
20 item
6 exc int skills belt
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 danger room ship buff
4 GH
85 TOTAL

Disable Device:
23 base
8 epic
3 tome
15 int38
20 item
6 exc int skills belt
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 danger room ship buff
4 GH
5 enhancement (Ventilated Armbands swap)
7 tools
97 TOTAL

Open Lock:
23 base
8 epic
3 tome
28 dex66
20 item
6 GS Smoke2 exc dex skills
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 danger room ship buff
4 GH
7 tools
105 TOTAL

UMD:
23 base
8 epic
3 tome
9 cha28
5 item
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 forbidden library ship buff
51 unbuffed with no swaps
4 GH
54 buffed
3 persuasion item swap
6 exc cha skills item swap
63 buffed with swaps

Bluff:
23 base
8 epic
3 tome
9 cha28
5 improved deception
15 slotted
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 throne room ship buff
4 GH
70 TOTAL

Hide:
23 base
8 epic
3 tome
28 dex66
6 stealthy (shadowdancer tier 1)
20 necklace
6 GS Smoke2 exc dex skills
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 danger room ship buff
4 GH
5 shadow form
109 TOTAL

Move Silently:
23 base
8 epic
3 tome
28 dex66
6 stealthy (shadowdancer tier 1)
20 necklace
6 GS Smoke2 exc dex skills
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
2 Otto's irresistable dance hall ship buff
4 GH
5 shadow form
108 TOTAL

Positive Spell Power:
8 epic
3 tome
9 wis28
24 implement
138 red augment
15 slotted
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 forbidden library ship buff
15 crusader's chapel
4 GH
25 superior ardor pot
247 TOTAL

[slarden]

Sadly, but it seems it's true. Many power gamers don't like playing a rogue now.
I was usually only rogue in EE raids.

By the way, I think these posts are not proper for this thread, let's change our topics to make better enhancement.
I can admit there are many people who doesn't like dex assassin, but, you can admit there are many people who like it, too.

We have something in common, we love assassins

I think you are misunderstanding. I clearly listed the pros/cons of dex vs. int earlier and gave you an opportunity to mention anything I missed. The issue is if they simply make assassinate dex or int, it makes dex much better for assassins. It isn't a matter of liking or disliking dex assassins it's an issue of balance.

If they want to buff dex builds they can buff the other dex trees instead of the single int tree. If they want to buff assassin they can buff assassin in general without proxy-buffing it by allowing dex.

If they allow dex they have to address the issue that int builds will be on weaker footing. A prior posts lists the pros/cons of each build and dex wins.

If they make this change (probably gonna happen) I'll switch to a dex build. I just think they are making a mistake by adding a multi-selector without balancing int and dex out as part of that change.

[brzytki]

Cool, I like this one too. Only I think this part is not really accurate.

Hassan's Assassin - post revamp dex based version
TL: DR version:
Dex version has:
-1 DC
-8 damage from KtA
-1 damage from 66 dex vs 68 int
-5 melee power
-7 seeker
-45hp
defensive roll below 50% hp with a 79% chance to trigger
knockdown and slippery surface immunity
an average of 40 less per tick of cocoon (average 100 hp per tick)
+3 max dex bonus (max dex bonus will be the limiting factor that determines dodge for each version)
changes to skills which are negligible and obvious with a shift in focus from int to dex

Because in this part you compare DEX build with new enhancements with your INT one with old enhancements. I think it would be more accurate if you'd added the new enhancements breakdown for your INT build aswell, as after the revamp you'll have to make some sacrifices on it too.

[CThruTheEgo]

Holy s**t guys, I've just finished my DEX build vs CThru's INT build and I have to say I didn't expect to gain so much power. True, compared to his build + completionist I'm losing 3 DC, but on every other build (read: no Yugo INT pot, no INT twist) I'd be only 1 DC behind while rocking sick DPS in LD. If you guys want I can post my build but it's gonna be 3 pictures of 3 sheets of A4 paper (since I still have only my smartphone and typing out a build is such a PITA).

Ok guys, let's take a look at the monster I've created and tell me honestly if you'd still pay INT build if you'd have a choice. Link http://imgur.com/a/WVAKj
The picture at the bottom is first, then middle one and top one.

I took a look at the notes. It's a bit hard to read/follow in a few places. I want to be clear on the DC you came up with so correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the dex based assassinate DC is 67 without completionist or measure the foe. Hassan currently is 69 without completionist and measure the foe. But you said it was 3 behind mine currently. I'm just trying to clarify.

Either way, most of the power that build gains is from running in dreadnaught. I could drop 4 DCs right now on Hassan by running in dreadnaught and twisting stealthy instead of int, freeing up 2 APs because I could drop another int from enhancements to even it out (those would probably go into more melee power from harper), and still have an assassinate DC that's 100% effective in everything but EE Stormhorns. It would be only 1-2 DCs behind the dex version you posted but would have higher dps due to higher benefit from know the angles and harper melee power. So I just don't see how dex is that revolutionary when I could get a similar build now.