Rogue - Assassin Changes

[redoubt]

Nevermind, bring on the dex assassins.

1. They will allow people to run in ANY destiny they want (i.e. LD or DC)

2. More people will play rogues then and I won't have to use the stupid rogue hires which never spot anything.

I will be sad at the disappearance of INT assassins, but if the devs want them to stick around, there are plenty of suggestions for that too:
1. INT to hit/damage in the assassin tree
2. someone suggested putting insightful reflexes in the assassin capstone.

[brzytki]

Nevermind, bring on the dex assassins.

Haha, you've seen something you like? :P

[brzytki]

So, I've posted my DEX build. Please someone show me a better or similar or even one that won't be left miles behind INT build.

And I have a question for IronClan, Chaios, Chai and draven1: "Where is your KtA god now?"

[Chaios]

...And I have a question for IronClan, Chaios, Chai and draven1: "Where is your KtA god now?"

Only thing I remember contributing to this facet of the general discussion is the point that the most obvious advantage DEX has over INT is the potential for more AC, and that if AC doesn't matter, then allowing the assassinate DC to use either mod wont matter, except to improve the DC for DEX builds. I also wrote that I think changing the save from fortitude to reflex makes more sense to me. It makes more sense thematically, in the sense that the hardest thing for an Assassin to Assassinate should be another Assassin, and practically, in that it frees the Assassinate DC from having to match or exceed the DC of other insta-kill effects to be useful.

Also, I remember when Monk/Acrobat STR builds were the kings of DPS and it seemed almost impossible to find a Rogue that could to disable a trap. Not because a Rogue with an 8 INT can't do traps, but because a Rogue with an 8 INT can't do traps without going to the kind of effort that even people who know how to do it usually can't be bothered with.

Right now, a brand new Assassin player is very likely to build for INT because it is the obvious choice for the Assassinate DC, and by happy accident the character will be able to do most traps without needing any special guidance. I suspect that with a change to allow either DEX or INT to modify the Assassinate DC, INT will again become a dump stat, and most Rogue players who aren't specifically concerned about trapping will be unable to it.

But if trapping doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter that many (if not most) Rogues would choose not to be able to trap if INT weren't also the DC stat of Assassinate.

[brzytki]

Also, I remember when Monk/Acrobat STR builds were the kings of DPS and it seemed almost impossible to find a Rogue that could to disable a trap. Not because a Rogue with an 8 INT can't do traps, but because a Rogue with an 8 INT can't do traps without going to the kind of effort that even people who know how to do it usually can't be bothered with.

Right now, a brand new Assassin player is very likely to build for INT because it is the obvious choice for the Assassinate DC, and by happy accident the character will be able to do most traps without needing any special guidance. I suspect that with a change to allow either DEX or INT to modify the Assassinate DC, INT will again become a dump stat, and most Rogue players who aren't specifically concerned about trapping will be unable to it.

But if trapping doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter that many (if not most) Rogues would choose not to be able to trap if INT weren't also the DC stat of Assassinate.

Well, a brand new assassin player is not going to fail disabling traps due to lower INT but because of lack of the gear. But it's nothing new, it's been that way since the beginning. True, it might lessen his burden but I'd rather have him having problems from the beginning and realizing he needs some help than living in blissful ignorance till mid levels.

I don't think it will be true that rogue players would neglect trapping, especially after what Sev said about ToEE traps. Unless you plan to start with 8 INT and no tomes you'll have enough skill points per level to put in all relevant trap skills. And you have to spend these points. Only lazy people won't be doing traps. You are right, saying INT might end up as a dump stat but it will be because in today's DDO having low INT doesn't mean you'll be blowing boxes, we have all these skill tomes, ship buffs, gs +6 skill items, ML:1 GH pots and so on.

[draven1]

So, I've posted my DEX build. Please someone show me a better or similar or even one that won't be left miles behind INT build.

And I have a question for IronClan, Chaios, Chai and draven1: "Where is your KtA god now?"

Don't underestimate INT builds, they will have 6 melee power more then DEX builds from harper tree.
You know you can't take both melee power from harper & racial SA, because of lack of AP unless you give up significant amount of AP on assassin tree.

Dex build will have 3d6(9 dmg) SA from racial, but, Int builds will have more raw plain damage from KtA & they will have more melee power(6),
so, Int builds have more non-situational & crittable damage source, melee power also boosts SA, too.
If you have 150 dmg SA, additional 6 melee power gives you 9 SA dmg itself.
Give you more dmg from your raw dmg & it can be multiplied by crits.

WHICH ONE IS BETTER, Kyorli?
I can't understand how dex builds can give you more DPS than int builds now.
Dex builds are inferior than Int builds on BOTH DPS & DC now.

[Ayseifn]

Good suggestions.

I guess I wonder how receptive the Dev team would be to adding a feat (Insightful Reflexes) to the capstone and add more changes to Exec. Strike.

As much as I may see your point with Int to hit/dmg, it would be a brassy move to largely gut the Harper tree's usefulness.

Any sympathy for Shadow Dodge being too low hanging in TA? It's a +3 bonus to Dex builds without an Int equivalent that is too easy to pick up at the 10AP threshold. That nearly makes up for the proposed +4 (which is currently just +2) Int bonus for capstone. And again, it's a T-3. ...Or maybe the toggle could be limited to holding a staff...?

So you want to nerf shadow dodge even harder than it already was just so assassins don't all swap over to dex based? Acrobats could still use some more dex to make it viable option.

As for changing the capstone to +4 int and +0 dex that'd be interesting. Opens up monk splash again but with knife spec the way it is not sure if it'd be worth it.

[oradafu]

Any sympathy for Shadow Dodge being too low hanging in TA?

Ha! Sneak Faster at Tier 1 was too much of a AP burden for Assassins that it was moved to the Assassin tree, but Tier 3 Shadow Dodge is considered low hanging fruit?!

[brzytki]

Don't underestimate INT builds, they will have 6 melee power more then DEX builds from harper tree.
You know you can't take both melee power from harper & racial SA, because of lack of AP unless you give up significant amount of AP on assassin tree.

Dex build will have 3d6(9 dmg) SA from racial, but, Int builds will have more raw plain damage from KtA & they will have more melee power(6),
so, Int builds have more non-situational & crittable damage source, melee power also boosts SA, too.
If you have 150 dmg SA, additional 6 melee power gives you 9 SA dmg itself.
Give you more dmg from your raw dmg & it can be multiplied by crits.

WHICH ONE IS BETTER, Kyorli?
I can't understand how dex builds can give you more DPS than int builds now.
Dex builds are inferior than Int builds on BOTH DPS & DC now.

So I take it you are still rambling. Please before you post at least look at the build I posted. You are talking about melee power? I'll be in LD blitzing lol I'll have twice MP of an INT assassin in SD. You want to talk about multipliers? How about Balanced Attacks, Damage Boost, No Mercy, Helplessness, and core6 from LD.
If you say you can't understand then I'll tell you this: the first step to understanding is reading what other people posted.

And we aren't talking about now, we are talking after the change.

[Bobby88888]

Don't underestimate INT builds, they will have 6 melee power more then DEX builds from harper tree.
You know you can't take both melee power from harper & racial SA, because of lack of AP unless you give up significant amount of AP on assassin tree.

Dex build will have 3d6(9 dmg) SA from racial, but, Int builds will have more raw plain damage from KtA & they will have more melee power(6),
so, Int builds have more non-situational & crittable damage source, melee power also boosts SA, too.
If you have 150 dmg SA, additional 6 melee power gives you 9 SA dmg itself.
Give you more dmg from your raw dmg & it can be multiplied by crits.

WHICH ONE IS BETTER, Kyorli?
I can't understand how dex builds can give you more DPS than int builds now.
Dex builds are inferior than Int builds on BOTH DPS & DC now.

I'm sorry what????? If you are talking on live right now Dex can get far better DPS but it won't be worth your time to assassinate all but the lowest fort save mobs.
If you are talking with the proposed changes Dex gets at least as good DC, if not better, with more DPS and survivability. Think about it, crunch some numbers, roll up a build. And you can easily see this.
If you aren't going to take the time to look at it properly please just stop making nonsense statements like this.

The discrepancy between Dex and Int would be so great if Dex to assassinate DC was added that to balance it you would have to scrap the entire class and probably harper too and start them over again which isn't practicle.

@Fedora1: Assassinate DC is in a good spot right now since if you focus on it you can get it into the nofail range but you can branch out a bit and still get a very good DC. Or you can ignore it for the most part/entirely and get a lot more damage and or survivability. Sev already said they didn't want to add any more skills as DCs and I am with them there, not to mention usign bluff would make it a Cha based DC with Dex secondary and cuts out Int builds a bit too.
The issue with Coup De Grace is how easy it is to get the DC to work with no investment, which is what Dex to assassinate DC does to a lesser but still very noticeable extent.

@redoubt: You can already run in an ED you want, you just can't go outside of an Int ED if you want to hit nofail DC, a good DC is still achievable in other EDs.
If your issue is having to use Rogue hirelings and that is why you want Dex based assassins so more people will go there for the brokenness of being dependant on a single stat then really you are looking at this all wrong, from a non rogue perspective.
None of those suggestions would be enough for the Int build to remain viable.

@brzytki: I only skimmed over your build but it looks something like what I saw happening from Dex to assassinate DC and no one could possibly show you an Int based Assassin even in the same realm as what Dex could hit.

Having taken these changes as a whole I have however developed concerns about being able to be at 99% dodge or more for 1 minute in every 2 given the right build. That seems a little OP to me. Especially if Dex to assassinate DC is allowed since it removes the biggest drawback (which still wasn't that big) of going that route. With other bonuses included that's ~ 0.5% chance of being hit at your weakest with 0% for some of that time.

I also still think faster sneaking should get a buff if that counts for anything.

[draven1]

I'm sorry what????? If you are talking on live right now Dex can get far better DPS but it won't be worth your time to assassinate all but the lowest fort save mobs.
If you are talking with the proposed changes Dex gets at least as good DC, if not better, with more DPS and survivability. Think about it, crunch some numbers, roll up a build. And you can easily see this.
If you aren't going to take the time to look at it properly please just stop making nonsense statements like this.

The discrepancy between Dex and Int would be so great if Dex to assassinate DC was added that to balance it you would have to scrap the entire class and probably harper too and start them over again which isn't practicle.

@Fedora1: Assassinate DC is in a good spot right now since if you focus on it you can get it into the nofail range but you can branch out a bit and still get a very good DC. Or you can ignore it for the most part/entirely and get a lot more damage and or survivability. Sev already said they didn't want to add any more skills as DCs and I am with them there, not to mention usign bluff would make it a Cha based DC with Dex secondary and cuts out Int builds a bit too.
The issue with Coup De Grace is how easy it is to get the DC to work with no investment, which is what Dex to assassinate DC does to a lesser but still very noticeable extent.

@redoubt: You can already run in an ED you want, you just can't go outside of an Int ED if you want to hit nofail DC, a good DC is still achievable in other EDs.
If your issue is having to use Rogue hirelings and that is why you want Dex based assassins so more people will go there for the brokenness of being dependant on a single stat then really you are looking at this all wrong, from a non rogue perspective.
None of those suggestions would be enough for the Int build to remain viable.

@brzytki: I only skimmed over your build but it looks something like what I saw happening from Dex to assassinate DC and no one could possibly show you an Int based Assassin even in the same realm as what Dex could hit.

Having taken these changes as a whole I have however developed concerns about being able to be at 99% dodge or more for 1 minute in every 2 given the right build. That seems a little OP to me. Especially if Dex to assassinate DC is allowed since it removes the biggest drawback (which still wasn't that big) of going that route. With other bonuses included that's ~ 0.5% chance of being hit at your weakest with 0% for some of that time.

I also still think faster sneaking should get a buff if that counts for anything.

So, how you can get better DPS on dex build on live?
Can you give some clue for why Dex builds gives more DPS?
I can't see any clue on these threads.

[draven1]

So I take it you are still rambling. Please before you post at least look at the build I posted. You are talking about melee power? I'll be in LD blitzing lol I'll have twice MP of an INT assassin in SD. You want to talk about multipliers? How about Balanced Attacks, Damage Boost, No Mercy, Helplessness, and core6 from LD.
If you say you can't understand then I'll tell you this: the first step to understanding is reading what other people posted.

And we aren't talking about now, we are talking after the change.

Why do you think INT assassin can't use LD, too?

INT assassin on LD will outDPS DEX assassin on LD now. Because INT assassin will have more melee power & better KtA.

[Bobby88888]

@draven1:
They can get more DPS via the freed up APs to invest into racial or acro tree for damage bonuses and can go outside of SD easier than Int for higher DPS EDs like DC and LD.

Int assassins can use LD too. BUT they will loose their no fail DC and still wont get up to the dmg or defences a dex build would have. Whilst a Dex build would keep a higher and no fail Assassinate DC than Int in addition to the better damage and defences.

[brzytki]

Why do you think INT assassin can't use LD, too?

INT assassin on LD will outDPS DEX assassin on LD now. Because INT assassin will have more melee power.

Haha, if you are so confident then roll a build and show me. I can't wait to see it. And when you do, ask yourself why your DC is lower, why your DPS is lower, why you wasted a feat and APs when you could go DEX and be better.

[slarden]

Don't underestimate INT builds....

People wouldn't be simultaneously be lobbying for dex assassin builds while claiming int builds are stronger if they didn't already understand how good an assassin would be with dex as his/her main stat. I am not complaining - if they make this change I will have no problem switching to a dex build.

Int builds will be significantly underperforming compared to dex builds when this change takes place. My starting stats are going to be 20/16 or 16/20for int/dex regardless so at worst you lose 10 skill points and 5 damage from know the angles, but the available options are much better than what you are giving up primarily because as a dex build you have some significant advantages:

1) One extra feat since insightful reflexes is not needed
2) no need to take strategic combat I and II from the harper tree saving 4 AP directly
3) Saving 3 AP on your main stat by taking shadow dodge for 3 dex instead of taking 3x int for 6 AP.
4) Saving 4 AP because there is no real downside to dex yugo pots while 50% reduction in fort is a bit much for a rogue so int yugo pots aren't even used by me while dex pots would always be used
5) Save 2 AP from harper tree since there is no need to spend 10 pts in the tree to have access to strategic combat II
6) 10 Increase to armor class
7) Ability to use tenser's transformation scrolls as a consumable to buff assassinate DC by 2 for one minute.
8) 10 more skill points for balance, hide, move silently and open lock
9) Synergies with the thief acrobat tree allowing you to specialize in both since they are both dex-based
10) 3% extra dodge via shadow dodge
11) executioner's strike shot from shadowdancer is dex based

Advantages for an int build
1) 5 more damage from know the angles
2) 10 more skill points for search and disable device
3) Use of daunting roar as a cc epic destiny twist
4) 30% extra fortification since not penalized by shadow dodge.
5) Shadow manipulation from shadowdancer is int-based
6) Consume from shadowdancer is int-based

The 6 melee power and damage vs. evil is not really an advantage for either build since they are available to both. You can still take everything else in the harper tree, it's just likely there are better choices since you are no longer needing strategic combat I and II.

Can you think of any other advantages of an int build that aren't available to both classes?

[draven1]

Haha, if you are so confident then roll a build and show me. I can't wait to see it. And when you do, ask yourself why your DC is lower, why your DPS is lower, why you wasted a feat and APs when you could go DEX and be better.

If you want, I think we can just meet(because you & I are in same server).
Sorry, I am sad I've never seen any rogue better than me in my server yet since 2008. I know we've met already, too.
Even I didn't take completionist, not max DC, not 2 TF MF weapons. Just 3rd life gimp rogue.
You can enlighten me how uber your rogue is

[redoubt]

Only thing I remember contributing to this facet of the general discussion is the point that the most obvious advantage DEX has over INT is the potential for more AC, and that if AC doesn't matter, then allowing the assassinate DC to use either mod wont matter, except to improve the DC for DEX builds. I also wrote that I think changing the save from fortitude to reflex makes more sense to me. It makes more sense thematically, in the sense that the hardest thing for an Assassin to Assassinate should be another Assassin, and practically, in that it frees the Assassinate DC from having to match or exceed the DC of other insta-kill effects to be useful.
.

An assassinate attempt when they are aware of us would make sense in that case. Dex vs Dex (i.e reflex save). But against an enemy that is unaware of use (i.e. we are sneaking and don't have agro) fort makes sense. They are not dodging or avoiding us in anyway. Its about determining if their body is tough enough to survive the assassinate attempt (thus a fort save.)

But maybe that would be a flavor change to the other pseudo assassinates that don't require sneak, to put them against the reflex save instead...?

[brzytki]

If you want, I think we can just meet(because you & I are in same server).
Sorry, I am sad I've never seen any rogue better than me in my server yet.
Even I didn't take completionist, not max DC, not 2 TF MF weapons. Just 3rd life gimp rogue.
You can enlighten me how uber your rogue is

Lol don't need to make it personal and feel insulted, we are talking about builds, not our characters.

If you really think you are right, then take CThru's build and convert it to LD, for arguments' sake keeping ED points and APs in assassin tree spent like on my build. First, choose your twists and then spend other APs. Then you'll see that to stay somewhat competitive in DPS you'll need to drop your INT by 10 points, which gives you DC 2 pints lower than my build while I can still easily burst for 2 more. You'll have lower saves, no defensive roll, lower dodge, lower threat reduction, maybe +20 hamp, slightly more MP, but no No Mercy, maybe 8-9 straight damage more, one less feat for example rogue PL, slightly better positive spell power. But don't trust me, do it yourself. If after this you'll still claim that INT based is better, then I can't help you see the light anymore.

[Monkey-Boy]

if you want, i think we can just meet(because you & i are in same server).
Sorry, i am sad i've never seen any rogue better than me in my server yet since 2008.

lol

[changelingamuck]

Lol don't need to make it personal and feel insulted, we are talking about builds, not our characters.

If you really think you are right, then take CThru's build and convert it to LD, for arguments' sake keeping ED points and APs in assassin tree spent like on my build. First, choose your twists and then spend other APs. Then you'll see that to stay somewhat competitive in DPS you'll need to drop your INT by 10 points, which gives you DC 2 pints lower than my build while I can still easily burst for 2 more. You'll have lower saves, no defensive roll, lower dodge, lower threat reduction, maybe +20 hamp, slightly more MP, but no No Mercy, maybe 8-9 straight damage more, one less feat for example rogue PL, slightly better positive spell power. But don't trust me, do it yourself. If after this you'll still claim that INT based is better, then I can't help you see the light anymore.

Regardless of who's ultimately right and who's ultimately wrong, I don't think the person you're arguing with is going to assemble thorough evidence rather than 'gut feeling' and cherry-picked assertions. That's why they responded with bragging and a pvp challenge to settle a theorycrafting argument...